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Brood War - Page 3

Blogs > Chef
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GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
August 29 2013 07:46 GMT
#41
I should watch some of Nukethestar's commentaries again. From the 2009 EVER OSL, I watched almost every single OSL and MSL game thanks to him and Ranshin.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
Monsen
Profile Joined December 2002
Germany2548 Posts
August 29 2013 08:59 GMT
#42
On August 29 2013 16:36 shaftofpleasure wrote:
With SC2 falling apart, I'm having these thoughts of a possible BW Reniassance .. I dunno .. it's just me and it will always be there. Koreans will still be following the BW scene. People having been doing this for more than 10 years so why would they stop? I think I maybe far off but BW can become what Chess is today.


I'd rather not. Pretty sure not many people would consider watching chess as "fun".
11 years and counting- TL #680
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
August 29 2013 11:25 GMT
#43
The joy of watching broodwar knowing who you are rooting for, the intensity and action every time the players are trying to attack each other on screen are thing that I will never forget. Playing the game gives more satisfaction but I will take everything I can get right now no matter how small it is . Broodwar forever .
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
Elroi
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden5599 Posts
August 29 2013 11:34 GMT
#44
On August 29 2013 20:25 Sawamura wrote:
The joy of watching broodwar knowing who you are rooting for, the intensity and action every time the players are trying to attack each other on screen are thing that I will never forget. Playing the game gives more satisfaction but I will take everything I can get right now no matter how small it is . Broodwar forever .

This attitude is so much better than mine. I can't watch the game I love the most and the game I think is the best that has ever been made only because it used to be played at a much higher level. It just feels wrong. Maybe I'll go back to BW when more old pros switch back.
"To all eSports fans, I want to be remembered as a progamer who can make something out of nothing, and someone who always does his best. I think that is the right way of living, and I'm always doing my best to follow that." - Jaedong. /watch?v=jfghAzJqAp0
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4728 Posts
August 29 2013 13:08 GMT
#45
On August 29 2013 20:34 Elroi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2013 20:25 Sawamura wrote:
The joy of watching broodwar knowing who you are rooting for, the intensity and action every time the players are trying to attack each other on screen are thing that I will never forget. Playing the game gives more satisfaction but I will take everything I can get right now no matter how small it is . Broodwar forever .

This attitude is so much better than mine. I can't watch the game I love the most and the game I think is the best that has ever been made only because it used to be played at a much higher level. It just feels wrong. Maybe I'll go back to BW when more old pros switch back.


This is a little bit unrelated, but whenever I see you (and a couple other guys) post in a SC2 live thread, my first feeling is "This guy loves Jaedong as much as I do."

It's like being part of a little anonymous club. Just feels good to know some guys are still around.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
Subversive
Profile Joined October 2009
Australia2229 Posts
August 29 2013 15:16 GMT
#46
On August 29 2013 16:46 GolemMadness wrote:
I should watch some of Nukethestar's commentaries again. From the 2009 EVER OSL, I watched almost every single OSL and MSL game thanks to him and Ranshin.

The MSL from early '09 that was covered completely by SC2GG was pretty good. Cholera and Rise covered a lot of games and if you're inclined to any of Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart they were all casting too.

It wasn't necessarily one of the greatest leagues but it was the first one I ever watched in full and Cholera and Rise were a great casting duo .

On August 29 2013 15:16 Chef wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 29 2013 12:48 Chill wrote:
On August 29 2013 00:11 Chef wrote:
There's enough pro BW to last me for ages. As long as its hosted somewhere and as long as I still enjoy it.


Don't you feel like there's something missing if it's not recent / live? Even with SC2, I could never go back and watch a game from 3 months ago that didn't currently have implications... it just doesn't feel the same.

I mean, there's enough professional sports to watch forever, but how often do people watch anything but the absolute classics? I think that's the saddest part of BW being gone for me - even though I'll never love a game as much as it, there still isn't enough to draw me to watch old games. What a sad realization.

edit: I think for you, if you enjoy SC2, there is no reason to watch old BW VODs, because you already have that need fulfilled. It's only a person who doesn't like most sports and doesn't care for SC2 who can be crazy/ridiculous enough to watch tonnes of old VODs for a dead sport. And it is ridiculous... But that is me.

Jesus Christ this part is so sad, I thought I was going to cry for a moment.
#1 Great fan ~ // Khan // FlaSh // JangBi // EffOrt //
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5492 Posts
August 29 2013 15:52 GMT
#47
Good blog 5/5
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
Atrioc
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States1865 Posts
August 29 2013 16:10 GMT
#48
Awesome blog. I miss BW too - and I really miss being able to watch an old sAviOr VOD and just be super impressed and not have it colored by what he did.

Can I ask where you are getting some of these VODs? I sometimes get the urge to watch an old VOD that was important to me and I look the game up on TLPD and the youtube link is down.

Also one of the amazing things about BW is how crazy insanely massively different the gameplay and strategies and balance changes over the years without a single balance patch. You can see things like openings get invented, become standardized, sharpened, refined, and then suddenly destroyed by a new innovation by another race.
I'm a big fan of League of Legends now but watching a VOD from a few years ago is basically a showcase of heroes/items that would soon get nerfed or changed. I cant get the sense of legacy and evolution that I could when I was watching old BW MSL Vods to write about current MSLs.
Writerman what
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
August 29 2013 17:18 GMT
#49
I ended up having the same realizations as you Chef, except about the SSL. The thing about full-on professional BW was that it just kept getting better and better --- strategies kept changing and new things kept appearing. The skill band among A-teamers seemed to narrow such that almost all games had a satisfying midgame or endgame, even if they started with some sort of cheese for the early advantage. With all that in mind it was hard to go back either to old VODs or even to the SSL, where it's still unusual to see two top-quality players of the old Proleague fighting --- it's usually a former A-teamer versus a former unknown. The level is still not quite there. I hope one day it will get there again and we'll see some new players/sponsors, and maybe even a mass return of the top players to BW; but until then, you're 100% right, the best way to enjoy the game is to treat the VODs like little unique puzzles with fun things happening in them.
Oh yeah, and to play it.

(And the names in this thread remind me of a live report thread, say, three years ago. Hi guys, didn't know you lurked!)
May the BeSt man win.
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
August 29 2013 17:32 GMT
#50
best thing about the wealth of bw vods is that I can use it for study materials
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
salito
Profile Joined May 2010
1647 Posts
August 29 2013 19:47 GMT
#51
I have a lot of bitter feelings towards a community which at large gobbled up games they admitted were inferior, but were 'the future of eSports' and who told lies until they became the truth.

Absolutely agree. I find it difficult to believe that a person who came from BW actually thinks SC2 is a comparable game. They conclude that there's no hope for BW, that SC2 is the future, and delude themselves into thinking SC2 is a game worth supporting. To be fair, their efforts have led to SC2 becoming far bigger than BW ever was outside of Korea. But just watching the games, it isn't and will never be the same.
Nature moves in the shortest way possible.
KristofferAG
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Norway25712 Posts
August 29 2013 21:06 GMT
#52
Exactly where did you find the old KPGA VODs?

Kinda sad read, but also a good post. I feel it all...
@KristofferAG | http://vestkyststoy.bandcamp.com | last.fm/user/KristofferAG
Cele
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Germany4016 Posts
August 29 2013 21:42 GMT
#53
On August 30 2013 04:47 salito wrote:
Show nested quote +
I have a lot of bitter feelings towards a community which at large gobbled up games they admitted were inferior, but were 'the future of eSports' and who told lies until they became the truth.

Absolutely agree. I find it difficult to believe that a person who came from BW actually thinks SC2 is a comparable game. They conclude that there's no hope for BW, that SC2 is the future, and delude themselves into thinking SC2 is a game worth supporting. To be fair, their efforts have led to SC2 becoming far bigger than BW ever was outside of Korea. But just watching the games, it isn't and will never be the same.


this.
Broodwar for life!
ReketSomething
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6012 Posts
August 29 2013 21:52 GMT
#54
I miss the magic
Jaedong :3
SpeaKEaSY
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1070 Posts
August 29 2013 23:46 GMT
#55
So bittersweet... it's like knowing you can see someone everyday still, but only because they're a wax figure in a museum.
Aim for perfection, settle for mediocrity - KawaiiRice 2014
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28701 Posts
August 30 2013 02:22 GMT
#56
if you actually say current c+ and transport all the way back to 2002, then I agree, that player would be a top-ish foreigner, I can especially picture a current day terran being really good at tvz - someone who just executes a 1 rax expand and follows up with a 4 rax or whatever would totally dominate. maps being different is absolutely a factor, especially if you look at the real map-oddballs (like jungle story), but there were many macro oriented maps back then as well. legacy of char for example- no problem doing a 1 rax expand there or a fast expand pvz.

now, the current day c+ player would on average have worse micro and decisionmaking than a 2002 top nonkorean or korean (if you watch corbalt go 9/10 gate from like 2002 or whatever, you'll see that his zealot micro is pretty much on par with current top nonkoreans.), but the c+ player would have significantly better opening build orders/timings, and absolutely superior macro. like, I was a top-ish nonkorean in 2002, in 2008, and with the exception of sziky I think I should be capable of taking a game from pretty much anyone now - at least if I played 50 games and de-rusted. If I were to rank the different eriadors, then 2008 eriador is quite a bit better than 2013 eriador - whom is way better than 2002 eriador. and in assessing how they are different, it's basically in terms of overarching understanding of the game. I was capable of keeping my money low back in 2002, and my micro was probably on the same level as it is now, although a bit less refined than it was in 2008. but in 2002, only pvt and zvp were played with the understanding that economy focused opening strategies were superior to technology or unit based strategies. sure, in 2002 I'd stay below 600 minerals all game and have good engagements and unit control, and I would have a good understanding of contemporary timings. but if you compare it to a well executed 2012 build order, then I'd enter every 7 minute mark with a significant economical disadvantage.

like, I think especially tvz and pvz have evolved immensely, and I think top zergs from 2002 would feel really lost if they were transported forward in time. whereas I don't think a c+ terran from today would dominate 2002 protosses. people just didn't really have to improve much in pvt over like a 8year timespan, so they didn't. ;p
Moderator
LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
August 30 2013 02:30 GMT
#57
This is an amazing blog, 5/5 for sure.

Also this line is epic and I totally agree, "Watching Brood War is an intellectual distraction."
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
August 30 2013 02:58 GMT
#58
On August 30 2013 11:22 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if you actually say current c+ and transport all the way back to 2002, then I agree, that player would be a top-ish foreigner, I can especially picture a current day terran being really good at tvz - someone who just executes a 1 rax expand and follows up with a 4 rax or whatever would totally dominate. maps being different is absolutely a factor, especially if you look at the real map-oddballs (like jungle story), but there were many macro oriented maps back then as well. legacy of char for example- no problem doing a 1 rax expand there or a fast expand pvz.

now, the current day c+ player would on average have worse micro and decisionmaking than a 2002 top nonkorean or korean (if you watch corbalt go 9/10 gate from like 2002 or whatever, you'll see that his zealot micro is pretty much on par with current top nonkoreans.), but the c+ player would have significantly better opening build orders/timings, and absolutely superior macro. like, I was a top-ish nonkorean in 2002, in 2008, and with the exception of sziky I think I should be capable of taking a game from pretty much anyone now - at least if I played 50 games and de-rusted. If I were to rank the different eriadors, then 2008 eriador is quite a bit better than 2013 eriador - whom is way better than 2002 eriador. and in assessing how they are different, it's basically in terms of overarching understanding of the game. I was capable of keeping my money low back in 2002, and my micro was probably on the same level as it is now, although a bit less refined than it was in 2008. but in 2002, only pvt and zvp were played with the understanding that economy focused opening strategies were superior to technology or unit based strategies. sure, in 2002 I'd stay below 600 minerals all game and have good engagements and unit control, and I would have a good understanding of contemporary timings. but if you compare it to a well executed 2012 build order, then I'd enter every 7 minute mark with a significant economical disadvantage.

like, I think especially tvz and pvz have evolved immensely, and I think top zergs from 2002 would feel really lost if they were transported forward in time. whereas I don't think a c+ terran from today would dominate 2002 protosses. people just didn't really have to improve much in pvt over like a 8year timespan, so they didn't. ;p

interesting so if I got his straight, you're saying that your 2008 would be better than 2013 due to superior understanding of the game and both are better than 2002 either due to better micro(2008) or better openings(2013). Did I get that right? Training now should get you better than your 2008 since you'll have the better openings and you'll get your understanding back up negating that advantage that 2008 had?
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-30 03:07:42
August 30 2013 03:04 GMT
#59
On August 30 2013 11:58 BigFan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 30 2013 11:22 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if you actually say current c+ and transport all the way back to 2002, then I agree, that player would be a top-ish foreigner, I can especially picture a current day terran being really good at tvz - someone who just executes a 1 rax expand and follows up with a 4 rax or whatever would totally dominate. maps being different is absolutely a factor, especially if you look at the real map-oddballs (like jungle story), but there were many macro oriented maps back then as well. legacy of char for example- no problem doing a 1 rax expand there or a fast expand pvz.

now, the current day c+ player would on average have worse micro and decisionmaking than a 2002 top nonkorean or korean (if you watch corbalt go 9/10 gate from like 2002 or whatever, you'll see that his zealot micro is pretty much on par with current top nonkoreans.), but the c+ player would have significantly better opening build orders/timings, and absolutely superior macro. like, I was a top-ish nonkorean in 2002, in 2008, and with the exception of sziky I think I should be capable of taking a game from pretty much anyone now - at least if I played 50 games and de-rusted. If I were to rank the different eriadors, then 2008 eriador is quite a bit better than 2013 eriador - whom is way better than 2002 eriador. and in assessing how they are different, it's basically in terms of overarching understanding of the game. I was capable of keeping my money low back in 2002, and my micro was probably on the same level as it is now, although a bit less refined than it was in 2008. but in 2002, only pvt and zvp were played with the understanding that economy focused opening strategies were superior to technology or unit based strategies. sure, in 2002 I'd stay below 600 minerals all game and have good engagements and unit control, and I would have a good understanding of contemporary timings. but if you compare it to a well executed 2012 build order, then I'd enter every 7 minute mark with a significant economical disadvantage.

like, I think especially tvz and pvz have evolved immensely, and I think top zergs from 2002 would feel really lost if they were transported forward in time. whereas I don't think a c+ terran from today would dominate 2002 protosses. people just didn't really have to improve much in pvt over like a 8year timespan, so they didn't. ;p

interesting so if I got his straight, you're saying that your 2008 would be better than 2013 due to superior understanding of the game and both are better than 2002 either due to better micro(2008) or better openings(2013). Did I get that right? Training now should get you better than your 2008 since you'll have the better openings and you'll get your understanding back up negating that advantage that 2008 had?


I think he means he was playing alot more in 2008 than he is now, so he would have a better feel for the tempo, better game sense and would be mechanically better than even if he de-rusted now. I think it'd be hard to argue that the meta was any less developed in 2013 than in 2008. Just that he was personally better in 2008 than now.

I'd hate to put words in his mouth, but I would say he has a better intellectual understanding of the game now, but he had a better instinctive understanding (eg game sense) of the game in 2008, the sort of thing you can only get from playing heaps.
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
aRyuujin
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5049 Posts
August 30 2013 03:32 GMT
#60
On August 29 2013 01:57 a176 wrote:
People always seem to mention "how badly BW ended", because of the match fixing and sponsorship issues.

I have never viewed it like that.

For me, it was a non stop ride on the OSL championship train. From 2008 to the very last tving osl, Stork, July, Flash all winning in 2008. To the tyrant's reign in 2009. Fantasy's first championship in 2010. Effort's amazing battle against Flash in 2010 and his first championship.

But it was the final two OSLs that would prove to be the best, and forever be etched in my memory.

Jangbi's storyline in the Jin Air OSL is the stuff of legends. Coming back from abysmal proleague performances, fighting through the wildcard to earn a spot in the ODT. Making it to the final brackets, and removing Flash from the tournament in one of the greatest series in BW history ever. To finally fulfilling the legend of the fall to become OSL champion.

He returned the next season as a repeat championship, playing a dominating protoss style we havent seen in ages. Carriers. Storms. The quintessential definition of what it means to be protoss. And especially Jangbi vs Zero, the greatest PvZ series ever.

This is what I choose to remember of BW and the final OSLs.



I didn't even watch that pvt vs flash live, i assumed it would be an ez win. imagine my surprise when i woke up and saw that flash lost to JANGBI of all people
can i get my estro logo back pls
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