Brood War Gather 'round children while uncle Chef rambles to himself
Recollections
For most of Brood War's life as professionally played game, there were always more VODs than anyone could reasonably watch. Proleague had several matches a week, MSL and OSL were going, and at one point, even GOM (which had formerly just sponsored) had its own Brood War league running at the same time. Occasionally there were Super Fights other showmatches. All the time there were variety shows of every colour for Brood War, of which Star Infinity Challenge and B.Net Attack were especially loved outside Korea. We even got reality T.V. shows in the form of Hyungjoon Becomes a Progamer and Nal_Ra's Old Boy. It was a lot of Brood War, and to a lot of people interested in this niche entertainment, it made it seem invincible and bigger than life. When everything pro Brood War related disappeared, that's what was on my mind a lot. It is exactly because pro Brood War had so much content I'd never seen that I kept watching it, even after the Last OSL Ever ended. Of course, I watched Sonic's league as well, but I haven't been that devoted to it. Since the last OSL ended I have watched the whole of the original KPGA tours, the 2003 Proleague season (featuring frequent appearances of Elky and Grrrr... actually winning), every OSL and MSL final, a lot of Star Infinity Challenge, and a bunch of others. Currently I'm watching 2008-09 Proleague and 2005 Proleague, which feature some of the same maps.
Misgivings
I don't mean to imply that since the day OSL ended I've been watching BW VODs every day. Especially on the heels of the end, there were a lot of times where I would be enjoying it a lot and then I'd start thinking "why did this ever end?" and I'd think about all those things above, and then I'd think about how it actually did end, and I'd suddenly realise I was hardly watching the game anymore and it was time to take a break. I have a lot of bitter feelings towards what Blizzard became. I have a lot of bitter feelings when I see Savior's face in old VODs. I have a lot of bitter feelings towards a community which at large gobbled up games they admitted were inferior, but were 'the future of eSports' and who told lies until they became the truth. If I think about those things and start on that path, I stop enjoying the VOD. Sometimes that unbearable feeling requiring a break didn't come from thinking about how BW ended. There were a lot of times when the nostalgia was too overwhelming, when watching things as a retrospective without intellectually analysing the game at hand was killing it for me. I'd start thinking that it was becoming impossible to enjoy old games because they represented a stagnation in the development of the game. As historical changes in what standard play was they were interesting, but it made me yearn to know what was going to come next in pro BW, in 2013 and beyond. It would lose its magic for me and I'd have to stop again.
An Attitude Change
About a month or two ago I started watching the last MSL that was ever played. That is, the one that never got sponsored and ended after the survivor tournament. For some reason I had a revelation when I was watching that, which took all the negative feelings I'd had completely out of the picture. I started getting into the habit of watching a few games in the morning with breakfast and tea before I started work, and it was really relaxing. If you don't know, when they do the out of studio VODs for the qualifiers, they tend to jump into the middle of games and you end up seeing around 5 or 6 games in an hour. That ended up being a perfect format for me, but when it changed to the studio group stages it didn't lose me. I had an epiphany about one of the real, deep reasons I love Brood War and why I was never able to appreciate a lot of other games as esports. Watching Brood War is an intellectual distraction. The glammer and glitz of the pro-scene might get you into it at first, the emotions of the players are a huge part of the attachment you build for it, and the storylines are cool and those things are all the part you describe to outsiders when you're making a case of Brood War as an eSport. But if you've played this game since the beginning, if you've followed the proscene for years, if you watch replays and you really love the game itself, there's something maybe more important than all of those things which aren't really particular to Brood War. The thing that Brood War has for the informed spectator is the game itself. When you think about the emotions of the players, you know it's in the past. It's the same for the glammer and the storylines. There's a certain point where that starts to make you feel sick if you really miss it. What doesn't expire, even with old VODs, is that each game is a puzzle. Before BW was gone, whenever I watched it was always the most natural thing to think about what this player should do next to win, how this player should react to this to come out of this, and seeing if that is what the player really tries to do, or if they surprise you with a more ingenious solution. When I think about these things, suddenly all those superficial aspects above are out of my head, and I'm actually enjoying the game as if it were played today. It gets my brain going, I feel good, and it stops being a nostalgia trip (of which there is only so much I can handle).
The Last BW OSL Ever Anniversary
You may have been aware that August 4th was a year from the day Jangbi beat Fantasy in the last OSL. A month before that I had finished watching (many rewatched from years past) all of the OSL finals. I had wanted to write something specifically for the anniversary, and I wrote a few drafts but none of it felt right. At some point, I came to the conclusion that it was because this feeling was so important to me, it wasn't something I was okay with sharing. Dramatic or not, I thought that this one is mine alone, so I spared its dignity of being analysed by others. I'm sure a lot of other people were thinking about it too. The reason I include this section, or why I write any of this, is just to say that I really love this game. I loved watching it taken past its limit and I love playing it at my own level. It's a real feeling that can't be taken away from me, even by the flippant nature of eSports and gaming culture.
Onward
There's enough pro BW to last me for ages. As long as its hosted somewhere and as long as I still enjoy it, I'll keep watching it. Right now it is part of my morning ritual and one day maybe it can really come back—though I'm not holding my breath. I've wanted to write something about this for a long time, and maybe it's not quite what I wanted to say, but it's a blog and that's what your old pal Uncle Chef has been doing.
Agreed 100%, the resentment at how it all ended so unnecessarily, and in such a forced manner, is something that now colours my enjoyment of bw vods, and makes it a bittersweet experience at best.
I don't see much BW blogs on TL anymore so this is an auto 5/5 from me. I played BW back in 2001 with some friends when I was introduced to it and moved onto team games, fastest possible map ever, BGH and against AI when they moved on. What I always found amazing about BW was how I kept being drawn to it. I would play the game, get busy and forget about it and then lo and behold, a year or two later, I find myself installing it again and playing again then rinse and repeat. I'm not sure what specifically about the game I loved, but who can say no to scouts? Units are amazing!
As for the pro scene, I was informed of it way back in 2001 but I wasn't as tech savvy at the time(TL probably didn't exist at the time) so I never got around to finding more details and eventually, time passed and here we are. Makes me sad that I never got to see BW during its prime but at least vods are still available and we have a good BW community In general, I see what you're saying and agree. Still lots of BW and who knows, Sonic's league is going strong and might even propel BW back up
People always seem to mention "how badly BW ended", because of the match fixing and sponsorship issues.
I have never viewed it like that.
For me, it was a non stop ride on the OSL championship train. From 2008 to the very last tving osl, Stork, July, Flash all winning in 2008. To the tyrant's reign in 2009. Fantasy's first championship in 2010. Effort's amazing battle against Flash in 2010 and his first championship.
But it was the final two OSLs that would prove to be the best, and forever be etched in my memory.
Jangbi's storyline in the Jin Air OSL is the stuff of legends. Coming back from abysmal proleague performances, fighting through the wildcard to earn a spot in the ODT. Making it to the final brackets, and removing Flash from the tournament in one of the greatest series in BW history ever. To finally fulfilling the legend of the fall to become OSL champion.
He returned the next season as a repeat championship, playing a dominating protoss style we havent seen in ages. Carriers. Storms. The quintessential definition of what it means to be protoss. And especially Jangbi vs Zero, the greatest PvZ series ever.
This is what I choose to remember of BW and the final OSLs.
I understand your sentiment but I was surprised at the lack of any threads/blogs about the last OSL's 1 year anniversary. Though I suppose each one of us has our own feelings about BW that we don't necessarily have to share.
BW had a certain charm and soul that's very clearly missing in SC2.
Or I've always thought so, anyway.
Also, do you ever watch old games (2002ish era) of old pros and think to yourself "I could probably beat that progamer?" I think the average C/C+ player could be a pro back in 2002, simply because they didn't have strategies that were as fleshed out or the macro skills to get past the C ranks.
What a great blog post chef. Sadly I'm still in the faze where my mind starts wandering to 'what went wrong' thoughts while watching pro-BW vods, idk I had to stop myself now from writing a long post about how bitter I am about how everything turned out, maybe I should have been more involved or something. It eats away at you...
About the VOD part of your blog: I've always had the feeling about BW that it's pro games were strongly divided between 'pioneer period' and 'developed period'. I don't know when exactly that transition took place (my guess is Nada / Oov handspeed and macro revolution) but the feeling about old games was always either between 'those guys are so oldschool, they don't expand enough' and 'this is a textbook play, not much to add cause the game is so mapped'. Perhaps it's just because the modern pro-BW finally discovered builds versatile against anything opponents could throw on you, wheras stone-age progamers had to figure it out all by themselves and make creative responses more often.
Personally, I thought Bisu vs Savior MSL final was around the time of absolute BW ascendancy, purely because pretty much everyone worth watching was either still or already around. Also, there was that interesting change of generations in the game plus the whole PvZ revolution itself...
And somehow, best OSL finals were always Zerg comebacks: GGPlay vs Iris, Jaedong vs Fantasy and Effort vs Flash.
I have a lot of bitter feelings towards a community which at large gobbled up games they admitted were inferior, but were 'the future of eSports' and who told lies until they became the truth. If I think about those things and start on that path, I stop enjoying the VOD.
These words really hit me hard. I couldn't accept that broodwar was ending and this community's shift in focus just seemed so abrupt. I got left behind
On August 29 2013 04:48 Empyrean wrote: BW had a certain charm and soul that's very clearly missing in SC2.
Or I've always thought so, anyway.
Also, do you ever watch old games (2002ish era) of old pros and think to yourself "I could probably beat that progamer?" I think the average C/C+ player could be a pro back in 2002, simply because they didn't have strategies that were as fleshed out or the macro skills to get past the C ranks.
Yeah, that's a false positive. You look at the players and their seemingly odd openings and think they'd be around C+ish now. Truth is, the maps were simply completely different from that. Like entirely. Try to do a macro opening (any of them really) on a map like Lost Temple (might be possible), Jungle Story(lol) or Gorky Park (no way). Keep in mind, most had no LanLatency either. Replays were new (2002ish). Etc. pp. You tend to underestimate the skill these guys had, both mechanical and strategical.
Obviously, the casuals are pretty good now, most basics are explained elsewhere, you have FPVODs and even FPStreams for anyone. But, I really think that a lot of oldschool players would be back on top rather easily due to their experience and their ability to adapt. A lot of post-Beta or post-SC2-announce players simply lack that. For now, see Arcneon, a lot stronger than just C+, or someone like Drone. They weren't even pro, but have no prob to keep up with the foreign elite.
Might be you got yourself an odd sample and try to generalize there.
Clearly given time (a few months?), the old pros would be able to adapt and would still be on top of the game. What I mean is that if a current C+ player who was around since 2002 were to magically be teleported back in time, I think they could make a very deep run in a tournament. I watch a lot of old replays and the macro is simply sub-par for what you would expect from pro or semi-pro players.
On August 29 2013 00:11 Chef wrote:The reason I include this section, or why I write any of this, is just to say that I really love this game. I loved watching it taken past its limit and I love playing it at my own level. It's a real feeling that can't be taken away from me, even by the flippant nature of eSports and gaming culture.
This is the best thing I've read in ages, and yes BW remains with us all, so keep watching and enjoying it, and keep playing it while you can.
As for this discussion;
On August 29 2013 06:23 Empyrean wrote: Clearly given time (a few months?), the old pros would be able to adapt and would still be on top of the game. What I mean is that if a current C+ player who was around since 2002 were to magically be teleported back in time, I think they could make a very deep run in a tournament. I watch a lot of old replays and the macro is simply sub-par for what you would expect from pro or semi-pro players.
I think as Gecko does, however its completely pointless to consider it either way. Your current player has all the resources and experience of the past to draw on, we know how to macro and which playstyles to choose etc. now because the players then figured out that this was the optimal way to play. You can draw this analogy with any game or sport, Pelé is arguably one of the best footballers of all time, yet if you sent in someone halfway decent from now they would seem to dominate that era and him, because of superior training and tactics we have developed over time now. The only interesting way to consider it is in reverse, what happens when some extremely good player from the past returns to play in the current time (assuming physicality isn't an issue), how fast can they adapt to new meta etc.
Agreed 100%. People saw an opportunity to make money and that was enough to systematically dismantle all the sponsorship for pro BW. Before SC2 was even released the "e-sports" hype was dinning loud, and it has continued at that pitch to drown out the inferiority of the successor, and keep the revenue rolling in. I wouldn't feel as bitter if they'd just been honest and not appropriated the names "Starcraft" and "Blizzard", neither of which resembles at all what they used to be except in a very superficial way.
Enthusiastic fans in the audience always really enhanced my whole BW experience. They made it feel like it wasn't just me watching all by myself. To me that was a key point that VODs cannot give me. I miss that feeling, that sensation, the excitement and joy. Experiencing it, live, together with fans around the globe.
I never got excitement out of watching any sport but BW. It taught me how much sport can mean to a fan. So whenever I told people I watched BW, I would tell them the experience is like how passionate football/basketball fans must feel watching their sport.
On August 29 2013 10:45 ii.blitzkrieg wrote: I fucking miss this shit so bad.
+1.
I know that I personally showed up very late to the party, but it's something that I really enjoyed. It's something that I quickly recognized was very special and very unique.
On August 29 2013 00:11 Chef wrote: There's enough pro BW to last me for ages. As long as its hosted somewhere and as long as I still enjoy it.
Don't you feel like there's something missing if it's not recent / live? Even with SC2, I could never go back and watch a game from 3 months ago that didn't currently have implications... it just doesn't feel the same.
I mean, there's enough professional sports to watch forever, but how often do people watch anything but the absolute classics? I think that's the saddest part of BW being gone for me - even though I'll never love a game as much as it, there still isn't enough to draw me to watch old games. What a sad realization.
On August 29 2013 00:11 Chef wrote: There's enough pro BW to last me for ages. As long as its hosted somewhere and as long as I still enjoy it.
Don't you feel like there's something missing if it's not recent / live? Even with SC2, I could never go back and watch a game from 3 months ago that didn't currently have implications... it just doesn't feel the same.
I mean, there's enough professional sports to watch forever, but how often do people watch anything but the absolute classics? I think that's the saddest part of BW being gone for me - even though I'll never love a game as much as it, there still isn't enough to draw me to watch old games. What a sad realization.
Yea the live factor is huge.
I mean I watched plenty of VODs and replays back in the days alongside the lives games but now I can't really find the motivation.
When it was clear the MSL was going to end, I did pretty much the same thing with respect to old Brood War games that you describe, I just started with the earliest VODs I could find and just started watching through things. Always nice to know I wasn't the only one.
I did find it was tougher to watch much older games compared to games from when I was following more closely (later Proleague seasons) just because I couldn't use my default sense of the timings to understand what players were doing: that intellectual element makes those games more fun when I can pay full attention, but just to queue something up (like I would putting on a stream) I wasn't getting anything out of them.
Chill makes a good point. I find it hard to go back and watch vods for either BW or SCII. The only exception is if they were played recently otherwise chances are I'll pass.
On August 29 2013 00:11 Chef wrote: There's enough pro BW to last me for ages. As long as its hosted somewhere and as long as I still enjoy it.
Don't you feel like there's something missing if it's not recent / live? Even with SC2, I could never go back and watch a game from 3 months ago that didn't currently have implications... it just doesn't feel the same.
I mean, there's enough professional sports to watch forever, but how often do people watch anything but the absolute classics? I think that's the saddest part of BW being gone for me - even though I'll never love a game as much as it, there still isn't enough to draw me to watch old games. What a sad realization.
Of course, but that's what the attitude change is. Going from focusing on the emotional weight of the games and how there aren't going to be any new storylines, to treating them as something that is pleasant and intellectually stimulating. It would be so much better if I could have both, but the latter still has value to me which is something I was close to forgetting when I lost the former.
I wanted to see Jangbi become the first golden mouse Protoss, I wanted to see Fantasy's d-matrix TvT take the match up through another change, I wanted hive tech ZvZ and to see Reality and Turn become stronger and better. I wanted to see new maps and new strats. A lot is missing without any hope for that.
Still I enjoy the game itself.
It's my personality type that I can be okay with that. Some people need to watch shows that are currently running and popular, and need to have someone to talk to about those experiences. Virtually all of my hobbies are impossible to talk to most people about. Reading literature, watching StarCraft, listening to educational courses on obscure topics, writing... Everything is either very niche or not currently running or popular. As much fun as it would be to relate to other people with my interests, I've never been able to force myself to become interested in something popular. All my favourite authors are dead and will never write another book.
It's a shame that the VODs have been reduced to puzzles for me to ponder, but its still enjoyable for me. I'm more interested in StarCraft than sudoku or random math puzzles, so for now it satisfies me in that way. At many points in life its nice to have something abstract to occupy the mind with, and somehow this game manages to still fulfill that need.
tl;dr: ya it doesn't feel the same at all, and I would get seriously excited about StarCraft games when they were relevant and current, but I genuinely also like just thinking the game through and watching very skillful execution which can sometimes be exciting even without relevance. For however long that feeling lasts, I'll keep watching VODs.
edit: I think for you, if you enjoy SC2, there is no reason to watch old BW VODs, because you already have that need fulfilled. It's only a person who doesn't like most sports and doesn't care for SC2 who can be crazy/ridiculous enough to watch tonnes of old VODs for a dead sport. And it is ridiculous... But that is me.
On August 29 2013 06:23 Empyrean wrote: Clearly given time (a few months?), the old pros would be able to adapt and would still be on top of the game. What I mean is that if a current C+ player who was around since 2002 were to magically be teleported back in time, I think they could make a very deep run in a tournament. I watch a lot of old replays and the macro is simply sub-par for what you would expect from pro or semi-pro players.
Yeah, obviously they'd be good. More interesting question would be how much the players of 2002 would have adapted if there was such a good player back then already. Guess the limit was just there, you have to invent how to walk first before you run. I still remember Boxer's sick dropship playes in WCG 2001 against Smuft and Nazgul or his control vs Blackman a year later. That's already - imo - way above the ordinary C+ guys nowadays. And his control was analyzed, adapted and so on and so forth, pretty quick actually. Same goes for how fast the Zerg learned to control Mutas, once this youtube clip was out, showing how to stack mutas in the first place.
On August 29 2013 04:53 Zeo wrote: What a great blog post chef. Sadly I'm still in the faze where my mind starts wandering to 'what went wrong' thoughts while watching pro-BW vods, idk I had to stop myself now from writing a long post about how bitter I am about how everything turned out, maybe I should have been more involved or something. It eats away at you...
Sigh... I feel you man. Many long posts were scrapped because I realized the more I wrote, the worse I felt. Especially proof reading what I had wrote.. all that bitterness, resentment, and anger comes right back to you because it's pointed at nothing in particular. Eventually you just get fed up with the whole thing and press the delete key and sit there wondering why you feel so shitty.
With SC2 falling apart, I'm having these thoughts of a possible BW Reniassance .. I dunno .. it's just me and it will always be there. Koreans will still be following the BW scene. People having been doing this for more than 10 years so why would they stop? I think I maybe far off but BW can become what Chess is today.
I should watch some of Nukethestar's commentaries again. From the 2009 EVER OSL, I watched almost every single OSL and MSL game thanks to him and Ranshin.
On August 29 2013 16:36 shaftofpleasure wrote: With SC2 falling apart, I'm having these thoughts of a possible BW Reniassance .. I dunno .. it's just me and it will always be there. Koreans will still be following the BW scene. People having been doing this for more than 10 years so why would they stop? I think I maybe far off but BW can become what Chess is today.
I'd rather not. Pretty sure not many people would consider watching chess as "fun".
The joy of watching broodwar knowing who you are rooting for, the intensity and action every time the players are trying to attack each other on screen are thing that I will never forget. Playing the game gives more satisfaction but I will take everything I can get right now no matter how small it is . Broodwar forever .
On August 29 2013 20:25 Sawamura wrote: The joy of watching broodwar knowing who you are rooting for, the intensity and action every time the players are trying to attack each other on screen are thing that I will never forget. Playing the game gives more satisfaction but I will take everything I can get right now no matter how small it is . Broodwar forever .
This attitude is so much better than mine. I can't watch the game I love the most and the game I think is the best that has ever been made only because it used to be played at a much higher level. It just feels wrong. Maybe I'll go back to BW when more old pros switch back.
On August 29 2013 20:25 Sawamura wrote: The joy of watching broodwar knowing who you are rooting for, the intensity and action every time the players are trying to attack each other on screen are thing that I will never forget. Playing the game gives more satisfaction but I will take everything I can get right now no matter how small it is . Broodwar forever .
This attitude is so much better than mine. I can't watch the game I love the most and the game I think is the best that has ever been made only because it used to be played at a much higher level. It just feels wrong. Maybe I'll go back to BW when more old pros switch back.
This is a little bit unrelated, but whenever I see you (and a couple other guys) post in a SC2 live thread, my first feeling is "This guy loves Jaedong as much as I do."
It's like being part of a little anonymous club. Just feels good to know some guys are still around.
On August 29 2013 16:46 GolemMadness wrote: I should watch some of Nukethestar's commentaries again. From the 2009 EVER OSL, I watched almost every single OSL and MSL game thanks to him and Ranshin.
The MSL from early '09 that was covered completely by SC2GG was pretty good. Cholera and Rise covered a lot of games and if you're inclined to any of Diggity/Moletrap/Klazart they were all casting too.
It wasn't necessarily one of the greatest leagues but it was the first one I ever watched in full and Cholera and Rise were a great casting duo .
On August 29 2013 00:11 Chef wrote: There's enough pro BW to last me for ages. As long as its hosted somewhere and as long as I still enjoy it.
Don't you feel like there's something missing if it's not recent / live? Even with SC2, I could never go back and watch a game from 3 months ago that didn't currently have implications... it just doesn't feel the same.
I mean, there's enough professional sports to watch forever, but how often do people watch anything but the absolute classics? I think that's the saddest part of BW being gone for me - even though I'll never love a game as much as it, there still isn't enough to draw me to watch old games. What a sad realization.
edit: I think for you, if you enjoy SC2, there is no reason to watch old BW VODs, because you already have that need fulfilled. It's only a person who doesn't like most sports and doesn't care for SC2 who can be crazy/ridiculous enough to watch tonnes of old VODs for a dead sport. And it is ridiculous... But that is me.
Jesus Christ this part is so sad, I thought I was going to cry for a moment.
Awesome blog. I miss BW too - and I really miss being able to watch an old sAviOr VOD and just be super impressed and not have it colored by what he did.
Can I ask where you are getting some of these VODs? I sometimes get the urge to watch an old VOD that was important to me and I look the game up on TLPD and the youtube link is down.
Also one of the amazing things about BW is how crazy insanely massively different the gameplay and strategies and balance changes over the years without a single balance patch. You can see things like openings get invented, become standardized, sharpened, refined, and then suddenly destroyed by a new innovation by another race. I'm a big fan of League of Legends now but watching a VOD from a few years ago is basically a showcase of heroes/items that would soon get nerfed or changed. I cant get the sense of legacy and evolution that I could when I was watching old BW MSL Vods to write about current MSLs.
I ended up having the same realizations as you Chef, except about the SSL. The thing about full-on professional BW was that it just kept getting better and better --- strategies kept changing and new things kept appearing. The skill band among A-teamers seemed to narrow such that almost all games had a satisfying midgame or endgame, even if they started with some sort of cheese for the early advantage. With all that in mind it was hard to go back either to old VODs or even to the SSL, where it's still unusual to see two top-quality players of the old Proleague fighting --- it's usually a former A-teamer versus a former unknown. The level is still not quite there. I hope one day it will get there again and we'll see some new players/sponsors, and maybe even a mass return of the top players to BW; but until then, you're 100% right, the best way to enjoy the game is to treat the VODs like little unique puzzles with fun things happening in them. Oh yeah, and to play it.
(And the names in this thread remind me of a live report thread, say, three years ago. Hi guys, didn't know you lurked!)
I have a lot of bitter feelings towards a community which at large gobbled up games they admitted were inferior, but were 'the future of eSports' and who told lies until they became the truth.
Absolutely agree. I find it difficult to believe that a person who came from BW actually thinks SC2 is a comparable game. They conclude that there's no hope for BW, that SC2 is the future, and delude themselves into thinking SC2 is a game worth supporting. To be fair, their efforts have led to SC2 becoming far bigger than BW ever was outside of Korea. But just watching the games, it isn't and will never be the same.
I have a lot of bitter feelings towards a community which at large gobbled up games they admitted were inferior, but were 'the future of eSports' and who told lies until they became the truth.
Absolutely agree. I find it difficult to believe that a person who came from BW actually thinks SC2 is a comparable game. They conclude that there's no hope for BW, that SC2 is the future, and delude themselves into thinking SC2 is a game worth supporting. To be fair, their efforts have led to SC2 becoming far bigger than BW ever was outside of Korea. But just watching the games, it isn't and will never be the same.
if you actually say current c+ and transport all the way back to 2002, then I agree, that player would be a top-ish foreigner, I can especially picture a current day terran being really good at tvz - someone who just executes a 1 rax expand and follows up with a 4 rax or whatever would totally dominate. maps being different is absolutely a factor, especially if you look at the real map-oddballs (like jungle story), but there were many macro oriented maps back then as well. legacy of char for example- no problem doing a 1 rax expand there or a fast expand pvz.
now, the current day c+ player would on average have worse micro and decisionmaking than a 2002 top nonkorean or korean (if you watch corbalt go 9/10 gate from like 2002 or whatever, you'll see that his zealot micro is pretty much on par with current top nonkoreans.), but the c+ player would have significantly better opening build orders/timings, and absolutely superior macro. like, I was a top-ish nonkorean in 2002, in 2008, and with the exception of sziky I think I should be capable of taking a game from pretty much anyone now - at least if I played 50 games and de-rusted. If I were to rank the different eriadors, then 2008 eriador is quite a bit better than 2013 eriador - whom is way better than 2002 eriador. and in assessing how they are different, it's basically in terms of overarching understanding of the game. I was capable of keeping my money low back in 2002, and my micro was probably on the same level as it is now, although a bit less refined than it was in 2008. but in 2002, only pvt and zvp were played with the understanding that economy focused opening strategies were superior to technology or unit based strategies. sure, in 2002 I'd stay below 600 minerals all game and have good engagements and unit control, and I would have a good understanding of contemporary timings. but if you compare it to a well executed 2012 build order, then I'd enter every 7 minute mark with a significant economical disadvantage.
like, I think especially tvz and pvz have evolved immensely, and I think top zergs from 2002 would feel really lost if they were transported forward in time. whereas I don't think a c+ terran from today would dominate 2002 protosses. people just didn't really have to improve much in pvt over like a 8year timespan, so they didn't. ;p
On August 30 2013 11:22 Liquid`Drone wrote: if you actually say current c+ and transport all the way back to 2002, then I agree, that player would be a top-ish foreigner, I can especially picture a current day terran being really good at tvz - someone who just executes a 1 rax expand and follows up with a 4 rax or whatever would totally dominate. maps being different is absolutely a factor, especially if you look at the real map-oddballs (like jungle story), but there were many macro oriented maps back then as well. legacy of char for example- no problem doing a 1 rax expand there or a fast expand pvz.
now, the current day c+ player would on average have worse micro and decisionmaking than a 2002 top nonkorean or korean (if you watch corbalt go 9/10 gate from like 2002 or whatever, you'll see that his zealot micro is pretty much on par with current top nonkoreans.), but the c+ player would have significantly better opening build orders/timings, and absolutely superior macro. like, I was a top-ish nonkorean in 2002, in 2008, and with the exception of sziky I think I should be capable of taking a game from pretty much anyone now - at least if I played 50 games and de-rusted. If I were to rank the different eriadors, then 2008 eriador is quite a bit better than 2013 eriador - whom is way better than 2002 eriador. and in assessing how they are different, it's basically in terms of overarching understanding of the game. I was capable of keeping my money low back in 2002, and my micro was probably on the same level as it is now, although a bit less refined than it was in 2008. but in 2002, only pvt and zvp were played with the understanding that economy focused opening strategies were superior to technology or unit based strategies. sure, in 2002 I'd stay below 600 minerals all game and have good engagements and unit control, and I would have a good understanding of contemporary timings. but if you compare it to a well executed 2012 build order, then I'd enter every 7 minute mark with a significant economical disadvantage.
like, I think especially tvz and pvz have evolved immensely, and I think top zergs from 2002 would feel really lost if they were transported forward in time. whereas I don't think a c+ terran from today would dominate 2002 protosses. people just didn't really have to improve much in pvt over like a 8year timespan, so they didn't. ;p
interesting so if I got his straight, you're saying that your 2008 would be better than 2013 due to superior understanding of the game and both are better than 2002 either due to better micro(2008) or better openings(2013). Did I get that right? Training now should get you better than your 2008 since you'll have the better openings and you'll get your understanding back up negating that advantage that 2008 had?
On August 30 2013 11:22 Liquid`Drone wrote: if you actually say current c+ and transport all the way back to 2002, then I agree, that player would be a top-ish foreigner, I can especially picture a current day terran being really good at tvz - someone who just executes a 1 rax expand and follows up with a 4 rax or whatever would totally dominate. maps being different is absolutely a factor, especially if you look at the real map-oddballs (like jungle story), but there were many macro oriented maps back then as well. legacy of char for example- no problem doing a 1 rax expand there or a fast expand pvz.
now, the current day c+ player would on average have worse micro and decisionmaking than a 2002 top nonkorean or korean (if you watch corbalt go 9/10 gate from like 2002 or whatever, you'll see that his zealot micro is pretty much on par with current top nonkoreans.), but the c+ player would have significantly better opening build orders/timings, and absolutely superior macro. like, I was a top-ish nonkorean in 2002, in 2008, and with the exception of sziky I think I should be capable of taking a game from pretty much anyone now - at least if I played 50 games and de-rusted. If I were to rank the different eriadors, then 2008 eriador is quite a bit better than 2013 eriador - whom is way better than 2002 eriador. and in assessing how they are different, it's basically in terms of overarching understanding of the game. I was capable of keeping my money low back in 2002, and my micro was probably on the same level as it is now, although a bit less refined than it was in 2008. but in 2002, only pvt and zvp were played with the understanding that economy focused opening strategies were superior to technology or unit based strategies. sure, in 2002 I'd stay below 600 minerals all game and have good engagements and unit control, and I would have a good understanding of contemporary timings. but if you compare it to a well executed 2012 build order, then I'd enter every 7 minute mark with a significant economical disadvantage.
like, I think especially tvz and pvz have evolved immensely, and I think top zergs from 2002 would feel really lost if they were transported forward in time. whereas I don't think a c+ terran from today would dominate 2002 protosses. people just didn't really have to improve much in pvt over like a 8year timespan, so they didn't. ;p
interesting so if I got his straight, you're saying that your 2008 would be better than 2013 due to superior understanding of the game and both are better than 2002 either due to better micro(2008) or better openings(2013). Did I get that right? Training now should get you better than your 2008 since you'll have the better openings and you'll get your understanding back up negating that advantage that 2008 had?
I think he means he was playing alot more in 2008 than he is now, so he would have a better feel for the tempo, better game sense and would be mechanically better than even if he de-rusted now. I think it'd be hard to argue that the meta was any less developed in 2013 than in 2008. Just that he was personally better in 2008 than now.
I'd hate to put words in his mouth, but I would say he has a better intellectual understanding of the game now, but he had a better instinctive understanding (eg game sense) of the game in 2008, the sort of thing you can only get from playing heaps.
On August 29 2013 01:57 a176 wrote: People always seem to mention "how badly BW ended", because of the match fixing and sponsorship issues.
I have never viewed it like that.
For me, it was a non stop ride on the OSL championship train. From 2008 to the very last tving osl, Stork, July, Flash all winning in 2008. To the tyrant's reign in 2009. Fantasy's first championship in 2010. Effort's amazing battle against Flash in 2010 and his first championship.
But it was the final two OSLs that would prove to be the best, and forever be etched in my memory.
Jangbi's storyline in the Jin Air OSL is the stuff of legends. Coming back from abysmal proleague performances, fighting through the wildcard to earn a spot in the ODT. Making it to the final brackets, and removing Flash from the tournament in one of the greatest series in BW history ever. To finally fulfilling the legend of the fall to become OSL champion.
He returned the next season as a repeat championship, playing a dominating protoss style we havent seen in ages. Carriers. Storms. The quintessential definition of what it means to be protoss. And especially Jangbi vs Zero, the greatest PvZ series ever.
This is what I choose to remember of BW and the final OSLs.
I didn't even watch that pvt vs flash live, i assumed it would be an ez win. imagine my surprise when i woke up and saw that flash lost to JANGBI of all people
On August 29 2013 01:57 a176 wrote: People always seem to mention "how badly BW ended", because of the match fixing and sponsorship issues.
I have never viewed it like that.
For me, it was a non stop ride on the OSL championship train. From 2008 to the very last tving osl, Stork, July, Flash all winning in 2008. To the tyrant's reign in 2009. Fantasy's first championship in 2010. Effort's amazing battle against Flash in 2010 and his first championship.
But it was the final two OSLs that would prove to be the best, and forever be etched in my memory.
Jangbi's storyline in the Jin Air OSL is the stuff of legends. Coming back from abysmal proleague performances, fighting through the wildcard to earn a spot in the ODT. Making it to the final brackets, and removing Flash from the tournament in one of the greatest series in BW history ever. To finally fulfilling the legend of the fall to become OSL champion.
He returned the next season as a repeat championship, playing a dominating protoss style we havent seen in ages. Carriers. Storms. The quintessential definition of what it means to be protoss. And especially Jangbi vs Zero, the greatest PvZ series ever.
This is what I choose to remember of BW and the final OSLs.
I didn't even watch that pvt vs flash live, i assumed it would be an ez win. imagine my surprise when i woke up and saw that flash lost to JANGBI of all people
Wait what? What do you mean Jangbi of all people??
He has like one of the best PvTs OF ALL TIME. One would think Jangbi would be near the top of the short list of people who might have beaten Flash at the time.
On August 29 2013 01:57 a176 wrote: People always seem to mention "how badly BW ended", because of the match fixing and sponsorship issues.
I have never viewed it like that.
For me, it was a non stop ride on the OSL championship train. From 2008 to the very last tving osl, Stork, July, Flash all winning in 2008. To the tyrant's reign in 2009. Fantasy's first championship in 2010. Effort's amazing battle against Flash in 2010 and his first championship.
But it was the final two OSLs that would prove to be the best, and forever be etched in my memory.
Jangbi's storyline in the Jin Air OSL is the stuff of legends. Coming back from abysmal proleague performances, fighting through the wildcard to earn a spot in the ODT. Making it to the final brackets, and removing Flash from the tournament in one of the greatest series in BW history ever. To finally fulfilling the legend of the fall to become OSL champion.
He returned the next season as a repeat championship, playing a dominating protoss style we havent seen in ages. Carriers. Storms. The quintessential definition of what it means to be protoss. And especially Jangbi vs Zero, the greatest PvZ series ever.
This is what I choose to remember of BW and the final OSLs.
I didn't even watch that pvt vs flash live, i assumed it would be an ez win. imagine my surprise when i woke up and saw that flash lost to JANGBI of all people
Wait what? What do you mean Jangbi of all people??
He has like one of the best PvTs OF ALL TIME. One would think Jangbi would be near the top of the short list of people who might have beaten Flash at the time.
Well at the time Jangbi was in his massive slump and Flash had 70%+ TvP...
On August 30 2013 12:40 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
On August 30 2013 12:32 aRyuujin wrote:
On August 29 2013 01:57 a176 wrote: People always seem to mention "how badly BW ended", because of the match fixing and sponsorship issues.
I have never viewed it like that.
For me, it was a non stop ride on the OSL championship train. From 2008 to the very last tving osl, Stork, July, Flash all winning in 2008. To the tyrant's reign in 2009. Fantasy's first championship in 2010. Effort's amazing battle against Flash in 2010 and his first championship.
But it was the final two OSLs that would prove to be the best, and forever be etched in my memory.
Jangbi's storyline in the Jin Air OSL is the stuff of legends. Coming back from abysmal proleague performances, fighting through the wildcard to earn a spot in the ODT. Making it to the final brackets, and removing Flash from the tournament in one of the greatest series in BW history ever. To finally fulfilling the legend of the fall to become OSL champion.
He returned the next season as a repeat championship, playing a dominating protoss style we havent seen in ages. Carriers. Storms. The quintessential definition of what it means to be protoss. And especially Jangbi vs Zero, the greatest PvZ series ever.
This is what I choose to remember of BW and the final OSLs.
I didn't even watch that pvt vs flash live, i assumed it would be an ez win. imagine my surprise when i woke up and saw that flash lost to JANGBI of all people
Wait what? What do you mean Jangbi of all people??
He has like one of the best PvTs OF ALL TIME. One would think Jangbi would be near the top of the short list of people who might have beaten Flash at the time.
Well at the time Jangbi was in his massive slump and Flash had 70%+ TvP...
To be fair, Flash had close to 70% win rate in every MU at the time (and still had at the end of bw).
Well noone said it was going to be easy, or that Jangbi was going to be the favourite, but as far as I remember, that slump Jangbi was in never really affected his pvt much (well except that really really bad slump around the start of 2011 where he was so bad it was impressive).
I mean I'm not saying people were expecting to Jangbi to win, surely Flash was still a favourite over everyone at the time. But if you were given the information Flash was going to lose, surely Jangbi would be on the shortlist of potential candidates to beat him.
Flash was playing pretty uninspiring (for him) bw when he lost to Jangbi so I don't remember people being all that surprised. Yes he still had solid win ratios but he looked very beatable in almost all of his games.
I played/followed SC2 for a while, trying to convince myself that it was what BW was to me updated for a newer audience. Eventually i just gave up that delusion, and some of the feelings you wrote about in this blog hit home for me. I've picked up Dota mostly since, but it's good to hear that BW is starting to come back a bit, as it's the first eSport I fell in love with and in my eyes still the best there ever was. 5/5
I was watching some old proleague videos the other day, sometimes i forget how much of a monster jaedong was after watching him play sc2 and looking good but so generic, for lack of a better word.
The emotions that just went into the previous years of Brood War, with Oz and MBC Game disbanding in August '11 and the last OSL in '12. I personally was extremely shocked at the abrupt decision to cancel pro BW.
BW will always be something I will be proud that I enjoyed. It's just you and the other person fighting it out with your minds and your speed. Obviously there are other sorts of 1v1 competitive games out there but I don't think any other game will be able to recreate something like that to the caliber of BW for a while.
I wasn't sure I wanted to weigh in on the go-back-in-time discussion, but I guess I'll put it like this:
I got to high C winning pretty much all my games with hydra ZvZ, proxy hat (letting the Terran see it most of the time) ZvT into sloverlurker drop and 2base economy focused satanik style ZvP with drops and whatever dumb stuff I felt like doing. It was after SC2 came out so the ladder could arguably said to have been a lot weaker, but it was not that long after SC2 came out.
I stopped playing because the wall I saw coming up was B, where just doing the same strategy in each matchup wasn't going to cut it, and I didn't feel like investing the time it would take to learn some more new strats thoroughly. I had never really laddered before and I did this in the space of a week just to see if I could and because it was the first time in like 12 years that I'd bothered to fix my router settings (which promptly reverted a month later because my ISP is really annoying). The thing about B, obviously, is that you're going to be seeing the same players again and again, so you're not going to have as much surprise factor on your side and they're going to figure you out if you don't keep things fresh.
All that to say C is not nearly as strong as you think. C players tend to be one-trick ponies who learn one build or opening very well (something fairly standard), and get thrown way off their game if anything irregular happens. I mean they play like D if you don't give them the game they wanna play, maybe even worse at times. C players survive the poorly practiced cheeses of D players, but they usually don't have that great game sense.
That said, if you sent me back in time to 2002 and I practiced as much as the Koreans, I could probably make a splash. If I didn't practice like the Koreans, I think I'd still get slaughtered by stuff just catching me off guard constantly. 2002 is a really long way back, and I actually have played a lot on maps from that era, so I might be more suited than a lot of C players, but I think if a C player really practiced like the Koreans and was decently intelligent to adapt and invent strats that work in that time, there's a lot of stuff we take for granted now that would surprise the pros of 2002 as well. If you save muta stack or vulture patrol for the semi or finals and look like a huge cheater, you could probably take out a pretty top Korean too, since they just did not have to prepare for that kind of aggression as much back then, and some maps really lend themselves to it.
Almost all C players, I think, would just get crushed if they didn't practice properly tho, and some would never be able to handle the old tactics because they still don't scout that well or prepare for all possibilities properly.
This basically comes from someone whose skill has only developed by playing games with friends and has never really played hardcore or laddered at all other than this one session. The knowledge and supposed mechanic advantage would have to be backed up with dedication and learning to concentrate properly, play in front of a live audience, defend against difficult to predict 1-base strats without letting macro slip and losing too much... etc... Hell, there's a lot of C players who don't even adjust their play style when they come up against 1 base and get punished for being way too greedy and not defending right... That's something they'd have to work out.
The biggest thing about pro BW that I miss is that it was still developing. There were still unreasonably dominant players (Flash especially) despite all pros practicing full-time; new strategy developments; and somewhat fresh new maps. I don't get the same feeling from watching the SSL. SC2 has these aspects of course but the game itself is a lot less watchable.
I guess it's inevitable for any computer game to die eventually, because it's tied to a particular era of technology. It's hard to imagine that, a few decades from now, most people will even use an OS capable of playing Brood War. For that matter, mice might become uncommon. And the game rules are limited in their ability to evolve, because they are controlled by a single entity (Blizzard)--an important exception being maps, which is how BW lasted as long as it did. Games like Chess and Go experienced rule tweaks over their history, which contributes to their longevity.
So maybe pro BW couldn't have lived on forever, even if it weren't for the match-fixing, SC2, and so on. Yet its death feels untimely because it hadn't been fully explored.
On August 31 2013 23:32 Chef wrote: I wasn't sure I wanted to weigh in on the go-back-in-time discussion, but I guess I'll put it like this:
I got to high C winning pretty much all my games with hydra ZvZ, proxy hat (letting the Terran see it most of the time) ZvT into sloverlurker drop and 2base economy focused satanik style ZvP with drops and whatever dumb stuff I felt like doing. It was after SC2 came out so the ladder could arguably said to have been a lot weaker, but it was not that long after SC2 came out.
I stopped playing because the wall I saw coming up was B, where just doing the same strategy in each matchup wasn't going to cut it, and I didn't feel like investing the time it would take to learn some more new strats thoroughly. I had never really laddered before and I did this in the space of a week just to see if I could and because it was the first time in like 12 years that I'd bothered to fix my router settings (which promptly reverted a month later because my ISP is really annoying). The thing about B, obviously, is that you're going to be seeing the same players again and again, so you're not going to have as much surprise factor on your side and they're going to figure you out if you don't keep things fresh.
All that to say C is not nearly as strong as you think. C players tend to be one-trick ponies who learn one build or opening very well (something fairly standard), and get thrown way off their game if anything irregular happens. I mean they play like D if you don't give them the game they wanna play, maybe even worse at times. C players survive the poorly practiced cheeses of D players, but they usually don't have that great game sense.
That said, if you sent me back in time to 2002 and I practiced as much as the Koreans, I could probably make a splash. If I didn't practice like the Koreans, I think I'd still get slaughtered by stuff just catching me off guard constantly. 2002 is a really long way back, and I actually have played a lot on maps from that era, so I might be more suited than a lot of C players, but I think if a C player really practiced like the Koreans and was decently intelligent to adapt and invent strats that work in that time, there's a lot of stuff we take for granted now that would surprise the pros of 2002 as well. If you save muta stack or vulture patrol for the semi or finals and look like a huge cheater, you could probably take out a pretty top Korean too, since they just did not have to prepare for that kind of aggression as much back then, and some maps really lend themselves to it.
Almost all C players, I think, would just get crushed if they didn't practice properly tho, and some would never be able to handle the old tactics because they still don't scout that well or prepare for all possibilities properly.
This basically comes from someone whose skill has only developed by playing games with friends and has never really played hardcore or laddered at all other than this one session. The knowledge and supposed mechanic advantage would have to be backed up with dedication and learning to concentrate properly, play in front of a live audience, defend against difficult to predict 1-base strats without letting macro slip and losing too much... etc... Hell, there's a lot of C players who don't even adjust their play style when they come up against 1 base and get punished for being way too greedy and not defending right... That's something they'd have to work out.
as a pretty recent C who has taken games off c+ and b- players, i don't think 2013 C+ players would stand any kind of chance vs old pros. micro hasn't really changed besides muta micro, and c/c+ just doesn't have it. add to that a lack of experience on old maps and i think most c+s would get crushed. probably a b or b+ player would do fine, but i remember discussing this sort of thing back in 2009 with players from my CSL team who were B+ and better and their opinion was that pros from 2002 would still be A/A+ on iccup
Never got into SC2. I can't help to find the game uninteresting and messy compared to Brood War. I used to watch BW every single day.
I have to say, I have a lot of time to invest in more useful activities (such as practice, I'm a musician ) since it's gone, but I have huge nostagia for the old days when I think about it.
I don't watch too many old school game. It feels lonely. I loved to think that we were many people watching at something that was really alive. You felt part of it. Now it's just plain history.
On August 29 2013 16:36 shaftofpleasure wrote: With SC2 falling apart, I'm having these thoughts of a possible BW Reniassance .. I dunno .. it's just me and it will always be there. Koreans will still be following the BW scene. People having been doing this for more than 10 years so why would they stop? I think I maybe far off but BW can become what Chess is today.
I'd almost rather not, the pain of watching it all disintegrate again would be too much.
Watching old proleague and MSL/OSL intros brings a tear to my eye... Such a shame how it ended. For a while it was producing the most impressive, storied gamers in the world.
I got caught up in Dota2, so I don't think I've watched much BW since the last OSL ended. After reading this blog, I definitely think I should do so again.
Not to blatantly double post but after thinking about it, I can't help but wonder if SSL would pick up more steam if we had interviews with pretty pictures like the old DES and Fomos interviews. I feel like the biggest problem with SSL is that its hard to connect with the players. There's a reason that Killer is Mini Dong, because of context of what we knew about the players.
Same with Hiya being a joker and Zero being loveable.
On September 02 2013 13:09 Antisocialmunky wrote: Not to blatantly double post but after thinking about it, I can't help but wonder if SSL would pick up more steam if we had interviews with pretty pictures like the old DES and Fomos interviews. I feel like the biggest problem with SSL is that its hard to connect with the players. There's a reason that Killer is Mini Dong, because of context of what we knew about the players.
Same with Hiya being a joker and Zero being loveable.
You need a venue for that. A great deal of OSL's popularity came from the fact you could just walk up to the biggest seoul mall and watch the players live, because megawebstation pc bang was so huge, with a studio planted right in middle of it I doubt sonic has the money to afford a whole tv and production crew and rent a huge and easily accessible place
On September 02 2013 13:09 Antisocialmunky wrote: Not to blatantly double post but after thinking about it, I can't help but wonder if SSL would pick up more steam if we had interviews with pretty pictures like the old DES and Fomos interviews. I feel like the biggest problem with SSL is that its hard to connect with the players. There's a reason that Killer is Mini Dong, because of context of what we knew about the players.
Same with Hiya being a joker and Zero being loveable.
Well to be truthful I was sure it was all over and when kespa transition from bw to sc2 and there isn't going to be broodwar any more . But people like Sonic and snipealot, teamliquid as a entity and ever guiding light for those of us who doubt at when things were getting bad . I am just glad I was a part of this and broodwar will always be the best game I ever played in my life. Still very proud to be of a community who share the same passion with me . I just want to say thanks for everything .
On August 29 2013 00:11 Chef wrote: There's enough pro BW to last me for ages. As long as its hosted somewhere and as long as I still enjoy it.
Don't you feel like there's something missing if it's not recent / live? Even with SC2, I could never go back and watch a game from 3 months ago that didn't currently have implications... it just doesn't feel the same.
I mean, there's enough professional sports to watch forever, but how often do people watch anything but the absolute classics? I think that's the saddest part of BW being gone for me - even though I'll never love a game as much as it, there still isn't enough to draw me to watch old games. What a sad realization.
There is a lot of truth to that, but I find two exceptions
1)You haven't seen the game before - at least for me good games are always fun to watch. If I hear about a gem I haven't seen I tend to go watch it, old or not 2) For learning - BW is different that way from other sports. You don't really watch pro basketball to learn how to play basketball, or pro golf to learn how to play golf (not that you can't learn anything from watching though), but BW due to the massive strategy component you can learn alot from watching and thinking about games.
We're still surviving in a post-apocalyptic mad-max world where all the cities are reduced to rubble, and defying the supposed inevitability of extinction.
There is something magical about BW, i could go back to rewatch a match I've already seen, with other games I don't really had a need to rewatch anything. The culmination of emotions in some of the greatest BW matches, coming from various sources (game, commentary, hype, crowd), that you can savor it bit by bit is what makes you come back, because no other E-Sport has that.
I can rewatch greatest games of BW and even if i know the outcome I still get thrilled. The mixture of audio and video, is simply the biggest "turn-on" my brain gets in spectated E-Sport. I can barely recollect handful of comparable E-Sport spectatorship peaks in other games I cared in the past.
On September 03 2013 08:43 ninazerg wrote: We're still surviving in a post-apocalyptic mad-max world where all the cities are reduced to rubble, and defying the supposed inevitability of extinction.
Great blog. Incidentally, where does one find all these VoDS?
I've been trying to find a big unspoilered way to watch the Brood War I wasn't aware of, but it's quite hard to do on places like Youtube etc. I really want to immerse myself from the early days to the twilight era of the game chronologically.
I'm sure some kind soul probably has a monstrous torrent of this stuff but alas I have yet to find it.
On September 08 2013 09:49 Wombat_NI wrote: Great blog. Incidentally, where does one find all these VoDS?
I've been trying to find a big unspoilered way to watch the Brood War I wasn't aware of, but it's quite hard to do on places like Youtube etc. I really want to immerse myself from the early days to the twilight era of the game chronologically.
I'm sure some kind soul probably has a monstrous torrent of this stuff but alas I have yet to find it.
When searching for stuff on TL, you'll probably have more luck adding "site:teamliquid.net" to a google search than using TL's search function.
The only gripe i had with this torrent is that pre 2007 vods are so low quality, also it was annoying to find some vods were actually lower quality than the ones that were on youtube. But seeing how MBC vods were almost completely deleted form youtube there is no other source.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/userfiles/17318.jpg?1254589689)
In general, I see what you're saying and agree. Still lots of BW and who knows, Sonic's league is going strong and might even propel BW back up 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TNwfzc5.gif)
