I am a staff member at a high school. A number of my students are rts players. Together we are quite keen to establish an esports club, train like any other school sports team, and eventually, hopefully, compete (in something).
However, we have to establish our club, and the concept of esports generally, as a legitimate co-curricular activity, to be able to get support to convince the IT people to open ports for battlenet etc for us - as well as, down the road, to access funding for school copies of sc2, team uniform, advertising or whatever else.
Essentially, we need to prepare a "pitch" to present to The Powers, who know more or less nothing about the world of competitive gaming.
What I am wondering is the following:
(i) Does anyone here have experience with starting up an official rts club in their school? What challenges did you face, expected or unexpected? Do you have any sage wisdom of the DOs and DONTs variety?
(ii) Does anyone have suggestions for resources or references that would help explain rts or the notion of competitive gaming, for someone who is trying to pitch it as a genuine sport (with all the attendant educational and character-building benefits) and not just messing around with expensive school equipment?
I know there are things like Day9 #100 but I'm not going to be able to get my Principal to watch that.
Two ideas we have come up with so far:
(i) A document which lays out explicitly what we would want from the school, what our goals are for the club, and what we consider to be the legitimate educational benefits;
(ii) Making a quick video ourselves, inspired by Day9 #100 but much shorter, making our case (this would be student-driven rather than from me); some combination of testimonials, shots of gameplay, our practice, and of the pro scene.
I really want to make this work, for sc2 and for my students. Now that I have got them kind of excited, I don't want to let them down. I'm open to any and all advice!
Simple reason: There is no "transition" from eSports into any "real job" and thus anyone who does it will just waste their life AND there is no demand for hundreds of thousands of kids doing it because eSports is a GLOBAL phenomenon and thus does not lend itself to "local third rate leagues".
Games are GAMES and are meant to be played primarily FOR FUN and not as a sport. If you enjoy doing it then do it, but dont try to make it too professional because that will make you lose the fun part.
Simple reason: There is no "transition" from eSports into any "real job" and thus anyone who does it will just waste their life AND there is no demand for hundreds of thousands of kids doing it because eSports is a GLOBAL phenomenon and thus does not lend itself to "local third rate leagues".
That could honestly be said about any sport. There are still high school soccer teams, even though the chance that you'll ever be able to make a career out of it is tiny.
You can mention that Starcraft is an amazing tool for building a habit of dedication, and that it hones the decision making, on-the-fly thinking and performance under pressure that are critical for job performance in today's competitive world. Playing games is also a very good way to connect people with similar interests and build potentially long-lasting friendships and a healthy social life.
This is an interesting video I remember watching about Starcraft, it's also produced by National Geography, which I'm sure is considered a legitimate source of information according to the people you are pitching to. To be honest you should watch it first to see if any of it is worth showing as part of your pitch.
You can also tell them about the salaries that players can make assuming they end up showing a genuine talent for the game and the potential interest in the school's gaming club by other organizations and the postiive media it woudl bring should it turn out to be a very successfully managed one.
Simple reason: There is no "transition" from eSports into any "real job" and thus anyone who does it will just waste their life AND there is no demand for hundreds of thousands of kids doing it because eSports is a GLOBAL phenomenon and thus does not lend itself to "local third rate leagues".
That could honestly be said about any sport. There are still high school soccer teams, even though the chance that you'll ever be able to make a career out of it is tiny.
No it couldnt ... because there is an actual demand for physical exercise AND you could go back to educating the next generation.
Computer games are just computer games and they have a certain lifespan and get replaced by the next game. Even if you are good at BW you are not guaranteed to be good enough at SC2, thus a "tacher job" is not going to be viable forever.
Simple reason: There is no "transition" from eSports into any "real job" and thus anyone who does it will just waste their life AND there is no demand for hundreds of thousands of kids doing it because eSports is a GLOBAL phenomenon and thus does not lend itself to "local third rate leagues".
That could honestly be said about any sport. There are still high school soccer teams, even though the chance that you'll ever be able to make a career out of it is tiny.
No it couldnt ... because there is an actual demand for physical exercise AND you could go back to educating the next generation.
Computer games are just computer games and they have a certain lifespan and get replaced by the next game. Even if you are good at BW you are not guaranteed to be good enough at SC2, thus a "tacher job" is not going to be viable forever.
There's also the problem that most sports can only be played during daylight while computer games can be played anytime, making it easier to goof off and not do homework.
Since Rabiator prefers to be pessimistic and not use his brain to think about all the good things SC2 teaches, I'll put some of my thoughts why this is good. Even though it's 'only a game', SC2 has a complex economy system, timings, build orders, unit control but most importantly gaining information, using it and mind games. What this teaches you is to analyze situations and gain the most of them. If most of the SC2 pro gamers and koreans in general (who I dislike the most personality-wise except some), weren't at the first place socially awkward, they would be the best socializer out there. If you ever applied all the routines you go through in SC2, to real life socialize situations, you can easily gain more info about the person than other people would do. Usually I'll just outright say it and admit it that this really works in dating, however let's not raise the hopes of every person and say play sc2 = think you can date Megan Fox. Anyway, aside from that. Most importantly the decision-making part is what makes SC2 the best e-sports game in my eyes. You are training yourself to take decisions fast not lose your cool. So definitely such a club will be a plus. What people however don't want to admit is that those who actually participated in any high school club never continued doing something with the sport they did. They praise the exercises but who are we kidding, very, very few people stay in shape. Life goes on and people readjust their lifes and it just 'turns out' that they 'don't have' time to stay in shape. But no one went out and said - oh sport clubs are bullshit because they don't give you an extra job, pretty much what Rabiator said.
So everyone should have the choice to do what he loves the most and enjoy it.
if you just wanna set up a club for your students, why do you have to go so far as to getting gimmicks like team uniforms? it's a bit of a stretch to sell it to your school administrators if you're throwing that stuff in there. outline your vision - like where do you see your role and your students in X number of years, how you would replace them once they're gone, what events do you plan on attending.
if this is done right, it's not too dissimilar to a programming club that a lot of high schools have.
Simple reason: There is no "transition" from eSports into any "real job" and thus anyone who does it will just waste their life AND there is no demand for hundreds of thousands of kids doing it because eSports is a GLOBAL phenomenon and thus does not lend itself to "local third rate leagues".
Games are GAMES and are meant to be played primarily FOR FUN and not as a sport. If you enjoy doing it then do it, but dont try to make it too professional because that will make you lose the fun part.
So all the kids in chess club are becomeing grandmasters and rolling in cash.
Simple reason: There is no "transition" from eSports into any "real job" and thus anyone who does it will just waste their life AND there is no demand for hundreds of thousands of kids doing it because eSports is a GLOBAL phenomenon and thus does not lend itself to "local third rate leagues".
That could honestly be said about any sport. There are still high school soccer teams, even though the chance that you'll ever be able to make a career out of it is tiny.
No it couldnt ... because there is an actual demand for physical exercise AND you could go back to educating the next generation.
Computer games are just computer games and they have a certain lifespan and get replaced by the next game. Even if you are good at BW you are not guaranteed to be good enough at SC2, thus a "tacher job" is not going to be viable forever.
There's also the problem that most sports can only be played during daylight while computer games can be played anytime, making it easier to goof off and not do homework.
What? This is just an absurd statement. Ever hear of indoor courts? Gyms? Night games? LIGHTS?
When I wrestled, we would have school practice from 3-7/8 and then head over to a school mates house who had his own gym and practice there until 10/11. 8 hours straight of working out. One could argue that that is way more dangerous (especially with the potential of dehydration) than a video game that can easily be turned off by the parents by simply unplugging a cable cord.
You need to speak with the principal about it. Come up with good sounding answers on why you would want to start a video game club during the last transition in a teen's life before starting their life.
Find a good room with computers that are sufficient for running the games. Or a room with plenty of outlets for plugging in laptops.
Make announcements over the PA to get the word to spread. Make it sound cool and chic because I foresee a lot of teasing and bullying.
Simple reason: There is no "transition" from eSports into any "real job" and thus anyone who does it will just waste their life AND there is no demand for hundreds of thousands of kids doing it because eSports is a GLOBAL phenomenon and thus does not lend itself to "local third rate leagues".
Games are GAMES and are meant to be played primarily FOR FUN and not as a sport. If you enjoy doing it then do it, but dont try to make it too professional because that will make you lose the fun part.
You may or may not be "special", you should probably get that looked at.
In case you didn't know, there is a team league for high schools called the HSL. You could contact them at hsstarleague@gmail.com and try to get in contact with other schools that have done this.
If you can't get it to work as being through the school like other sports, depending on school rules you could have it set up as a club. At my high school I think you just had to ask and as long as it wasn't something ridiculous you could go ahead and make it a club.
Also, all the bickering about it being a waste of time because it won't help you isn't really relevant to what the OP asked about. He wanted advice on how to do this, not whether he should.
On June 27 2013 14:56 wptlzkwjd wrote: You need to speak with the principal about it. Come up with good sounding answers on why you would want to start a video game club during the last transition in a teen's life before starting their life.
Find a good room with computers that are sufficient for running the games. Or a room with plenty of outlets for plugging in laptops.
Make announcements over the PA to get the word to spread. Make it sound cool and chic because I foresee a lot of teasing and bullying.
What is this, the 80's? I've honestly never heard of someone getting teased or bullied for playing video games. Hell, I went to the bar the other night and heard two gangster ass black dudes talking about LoL.
Simple reason: There is no "transition" from eSports into any "real job" and thus anyone who does it will just waste their life AND there is no demand for hundreds of thousands of kids doing it because eSports is a GLOBAL phenomenon and thus does not lend itself to "local third rate leagues".
That could honestly be said about any sport. There are still high school soccer teams, even though the chance that you'll ever be able to make a career out of it is tiny.
No it couldnt ... because there is an actual demand for physical exercise AND you could go back to educating the next generation.
Computer games are just computer games and they have a certain lifespan and get replaced by the next game. Even if you are good at BW you are not guaranteed to be good enough at SC2, thus a "tacher job" is not going to be viable forever.
I'm not sure about these days, but universities in Seoul used to have eSports classes. If eSports becomes widespread, and becomes a viable job making industry, having teaching positions for eSports could become a possibility.
The thing is, people need to take steps to make computer games a viable industry. Having kids play in High School isn't a bad idea, so long as they are guided by people who aren't total nerds. We don't need a society of nerds, we need gamers who can coexist with the real world. Ofc all (or at least most) of us are fine, but when you get people so much more involved with games at younger ages, they need more guidance to help balance out the nerd inside.
On June 27 2013 15:04 Whatson wrote: I didn't even know there were educational benefits to Starcraft, everybody I know just plays for the lulz o.O
There have been a lot of studies on games. Most studies have given positive feedback, saying that games help kids grow in a positive manner. The drawback is their lack of social skills which can be fixed with the right guidance. Most of those studies also focused on games like SC:BW, WC3, and Counterstrike. Oh and Quake.
On June 27 2013 15:04 Whatson wrote: I didn't even know there were educational benefits to Starcraft, everybody I know just plays for the lulz o.O
@Above, do you have any connection to high schoolers LOL, yes people get bullied for being nerds and gamers, it's normal in high school.
Because they were in high-school not too long ago. 3 years isn't that big of a difference. I disagree though, people get bullied for being socially awkward, not for playing video games. It just so happens that most socially awkward kids play video games.
Simple reason: There is no "transition" from eSports into any "real job" and thus anyone who does it will just waste their life AND there is no demand for hundreds of thousands of kids doing it because eSports is a GLOBAL phenomenon and thus does not lend itself to "local third rate leagues".
Games are GAMES and are meant to be played primarily FOR FUN and not as a sport. If you enjoy doing it then do it, but dont try to make it too professional because that will make you lose the fun part.
He's making a game club, not committing his soul to esports, relax. Yes, games are games, and games are also competitive, and in many cases, the competitiveness enhances the fun of a game. Also, no demand for kids doing it? Too late, bud, there's already a high school starleague.
(i) Does anyone here have experience with starting up an official rts club in their school? What challenges did you face, expected or unexpected? Do you have any sage wisdom of the DOs and DONTs variety?
(ii) Does anyone have suggestions for resources or references that would help explain rts or the notion of competitive gaming, for someone who is trying to pitch it as a genuine sport (with all the attendant educational and character-building benefits) and not just messing around with expensive school equipment?
Yes, I started my university StarCraft club back in September through found-local interest on Team Liquid. You pitch the social aspect of LANs and offline communication in combination with what is challenging and mentally demanding from students.
You need to break these social stigmas (there are four of them and combined them into two) about gaming and clubs surrounding them (my club has been backed and funded by my university student council through a good pitch and constant updates on what goes on).
Here are the social stigmas you will need to pitch against:
Video-gaming is the polar opposite of outdoor activities and thus anti-socialistic behavior: Because outdoors sports requires physical exertion and activity, the assumption that because you're moving, you're actively communicating is assumed to be exclusively associative. You need to prove that this is untrue and that any and all activities can involve team-building and improve social behavior of growing adults despite not being physically-demanding.
Video-gaming dulls the mind, causes laziness and prevents self-improvement: While yes, video-games are entertainment, you need to show that there are many classes of games and thus cannot all be interpreted or 'labeled' the same way. Games like Sim City, StarCraft and Civilization V are not on the same mental demand as platformers or most popular FPS games. That doesn't make any game less in quality, just different in its intention and demand of mental construction (games like Minecraft and Portal have real appropriated uses outside of entertainment)
Those are the two main hurdles you need to overcome. Don't bother with videos of the game, in-depth explanations of the game or anything that demands the audience to know what the game is fully about. You need to sum it up quickly and associate with something they are familiar with (Chess is an easy example). Board games and classic games like Chess are very similar to the qualities we can see in video-games and a lot more accepted.
Don't talk about gimmicks about team jerseys, competitions, etc. They don't care and honestly, it starts to sound more like an obsessed hobby than a legitimate competition (it's hit-or-miss, my uni. was pretty split about the validity of the CSL). You should be focusing on how the club contributes to a school's curriculum and less about how far you can go with the club. In that regard, drawing shy or timid people into a common interest (gaming) is also, very good.
You can convince your school about allowing a video-game club by listing, in detail, activities that promote the right values (that you need to highlight). Replay watching, strategy discussion and team-building exercises are all things schools promote and cannot reject.
Thanks everyone for the comments and ideas (esp. Torte - that was a really helpful post)!
You have given me some more things to think about. Keeping it all as simple as possible, while emphasizing the similarities to traditional and well-known activities like team sports and chess clubs seems very wise to me.
I was thinking, this process would be easier if I could just waltz into the office and say "Hey, next September is the Australian High Schools Starleague, we want to field a team", and wave around a poster; it lends instant legitimacy if you can point to X other schools supporting the activity. Hopefully in time we can build that kind of infrastructure.
I will definitely email that US high school league and see what info they have.
Anyway, I'm back to the whiteboard for a second think. Thanks again for the ideas and opinions. Will let you know how we go!
glgl!
PS Oh btw just my 2c - from what I see, that whole "gaming is for neeeeerds" thing is really dying out. The culture seems to have moved on. Thankfully.
i sincerely doubt you'd get it recognized as a sport like you would soccer. don't see why you couldnt do it as a club. there's ones for chess, computers, etc etc etc. I don't really know why you'd have to justify it much other than we all enjoy this, we want to play compettiviely and train under the same banner. unless you school has some kind of requiremenbts for a club, you could probably just do it as an intramural thing competing against one another.
Admin of the High School Starleague, unfortunately we are an NA league. But currently we have a project going on in EU, and if you'd like to start working on an SEA league we definately would be interested in helping out. Feel free to email us at hsstarleague@gmail.com
When you talk to whoever you are pitching your idea to, you may find it useful to mention positive qualities about playing video games. -They teach teamwork to defeat a common enemy. -They you want to start and complete goals. -Some (such as...let's say...minecraft) teach mathematical skills in geometry. -Many encourage creativity and to express who you are. -Playing can improve your visuospatial skills, also abstract thinking and problem solving.
Also many careers do have use of electronics. You may grow up to design a video game and end up working for Apple or Mojang Studios. There are also jobs in software control, computer design, things like that require knowledge of computers.
My reason as to posting this long after the question is to help other people prepare for a good debate speech when they decide to start their own club. Is that not another reason we post this stuff? So that not only we know, but other people too?
Quoting this in short, because it's the best approach you can possibly do. I try to build up on that with more common mistakes. I'm from an older generation, so my advice might be slightly outdated, and it might contradict a lot of other responses.
I'd completely ignore every argument that losely relates to any "gaining" of "abilities" that would translate into a specific job. Job skills translate into jobs, not video game skills. However, comparing RTS / video games to a real and accepted activity is the way to introduce yourself. Chess is a good example, but Pool works as well. Both don't require a lot of physical activity, but they're accepted, and in the case of chess, even have positive stereotypes to them. Tell him it's a strategy video game, "similar to chess". Really, no need to go into detail, it'll bore an older person too fast.
The inclusion part of Torte really pays off greatly. Stress out that it's mostly about _real life_ communication, because else, you could do it from home as well. This is something you have to counter immediately, because if I was your prinicipal I'd simply suggest to meet in your free time, after all your game happens online. Point out it's a lot easier to organize and include anyone in the context of the insitution "high school" than it would be from hanging up a poster or something else, as well as having a neutral place to meet up. Tell them that RTS are also about social face-to-face contact, about exchange and planning your activities in the real world. Focus on the bonding aspect, not so much about "playing as a team within a game". If you really go down the road and tell people how difficult it is to plan Zerg/Terran vs Protoss/Protoss in a 2v2 they will mentally drift off and label you as overzealous nerd. Really, it has no point. It's different if you try it like "we like something exotic and try to have meetings in the real world". Stress the real world thing out as often as you can. It doesn't matter if it's an indoor activity, really, most other school things are - drama clubs, debate clubs, writers and so on.
Building up on that, and I think Torte missed the dimension of what I mean, is to stress out that it might help you to "network". I don't know if it's slightly overdoing it, but organizing a team and competiting world wide helps you to get in touch and exchange a lot. I can't count how many of my opponents outside of the team. The examples are so diverse, it's hard to point a finger on them, maybe because I organized rather than played. The range goes from helping me to pick travel destinations, having translators at hand (for at least seven different major languags) to IT related shit, or getting quick advice from lawyers. It depends on how far you want to take this argument, but if you plan to compete in a national league, you might point out that you get to learn about universities from students, you might get in contact with software developers, game designers, mathematicians and academics in general. Point out that - similar to chess - RTS on a competitive level has a high correlation with higher educational / socio-economic background. It's a hobby of the educated and young, nobody else has time to commit to it for a longer time (this sounds incredibly arrogant and elitist, but it's a fact for RTS). Hence, networking is a definitely a thing working in your favour. Maybe that'd be more of a thing for universities, but it's worth a try. Since there IS an American league (or at least was), you can point out that it already is a thing. And not a bad one.
Also, one last word of advice, never ever speak of negatives if they weren't brought up in the conversation. If your principal doesn't mention anything bad on his own, you won't do it either. Don't start with "you probably think we're all nerds, but..." or "you might think video games cause violence, but... ". There's the chance he is open to it and you just remind him there are stereotypes. Just stick to your guns and always try to sound as if it was like any other club the school already has (because it is).
for years high schools had board game clubs, chess clubs, movie and video game clubs, etc. sell it on the same merits: competition, team building, strategic thinking, building practice habits and discipline, building friendships with like minded folk, etc. It's absolutely no different, and the bar for clubs at high school/college is incredibly low
On October 28 2015 01:53 GeckoXp wrote:
The inclusion part of Torte really pays off greatly. Stress out that it's mostly about _real life_ communication, because else, you could do it from home as well. This is something you have to counter immediately, because if I was your prinicipal I'd simply suggest to meet in your free time, after all your game happens online. Point out it's a lot easier to organize and include anyone in the context of the insitution "high school" than it would be from hanging up a poster or something else, as well as having a neutral place to meet up. Tell them that RTS are also about social face-to-face contact, about exchange and planning your activities in the real world. Focus on the bonding aspect, not so much about "playing as a team within a game".
also absolutely hammer this home too, this will be key and probably the 1 counter youll hear no matte what you say
all you have to demonstrate is that there is a demand, and that this club would in some way enrich a student's learning experience, even if abstractly (ie builds discipline and training habits in the same way as a chess club or soccer team, well rounded students have lots of hobbies, etc). Your main goal is to make them think that students in this will unlock their full potential by developing better habits and more hobbies.
you absolutely, 100% SHOULD NOT even bring up any negatives about social stigmas and such unless directly asked since it acknowledges that they exist, and the person you are with will absolutely start bring that up if you do. Let the administrators bring this up if they want, and be prepared for it (your thesis to that answer should be something about how chess is also associated with nerds, but it requires similar dedication, practice, and critical thinking as BW or sports, and chess and sports are regularly viewed as enriching hobbies). Tying it to an accepted club or idea forces the reviewers to question their ideals if they are to reject your proposal.
Do not bring up any bullshit about how popular it is in korea, how they have esports classes, how people make money off of esports, do not show a video of a caster or gameplay, etc. Going that road makes it seem like your why is to encourage kids that playing video games is a viable career, which is completely dumb will rightfully get you laughed out of the room by adminstrators. It should go without saying but definitely do not mention how many idiot high schoolers still stuck in gold post about wanting to go pro on here. DEFINITELY DO NOT CANNIBALIZE YOUR ARGUMENT BY SAYING 'this isn't like X brainless shooter' since that's just a completely arbitrary line you are making, and you are inviting them to think the same about BW or whatever you want to play.
strategically, you probably have your best shot at getting into a league or whatever by going for just establishing a club first, and then bringing that up. If they say no to a club, then you can say why not, there are other schools doing it (show link/poster as a means to legitimize your club further). If they say yes, then you approach them as hey our club is succesful - let's take the next step.
Going for the competition first is biting off more. Now you're asking more committment on the school's part for a probably unknown thing.
On June 27 2013 15:04 Whatson wrote: I didn't even know there were educational benefits to Starcraft, everybody I know just plays for the lulz o.O
@Above, do you have any connection to high schoolers LOL, yes people get bullied for being nerds and gamers, it's normal in high school.
My entire football team was full of gamers... video games arent nerd only like they may have been 5-10 years ago... 90% of high school males are gamers now.
EPT
Good luck!
