EPTIt's meaningless to make any comparisons between these two games because both are just a vehicle for allowing players to compete against each other with a set of pre-defined rules.
Please tell me that sounds as ridiculous to you as it does to me...
E-sport Comparisons are Dumb - Page 2
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Kashll
United States1117 Posts
It's meaningless to make any comparisons between these two games because both are just a vehicle for allowing players to compete against each other with a set of pre-defined rules. Please tell me that sounds as ridiculous to you as it does to me... | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On June 10 2013 05:17 Kashll wrote: So by this logic tic-tac-toe is as much a trial of skill and legitimate competition as chess. No. tic-tac-toe is way harder than chess. | ||
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Glaive
Sweden138 Posts
On June 10 2013 05:17 Kashll wrote: So by this logic tic-tac-toe is as much a trial of skill and legitimate competition as chess. After all you're competing against another player there not the game. It's meaningless to make any comparisons between these two games because both are just a vehicle for allowing players to compete against each other with a set of pre-defined rules. Please tell me that sounds as ridiculous to you as it does to me... Tic tac toe has a right way and a wrong way to play it. If you´re playing tic tac toe you´re probably 5-7 years old and don´t care about much else than beating your peers at a very basic game. Vastly different from a game of chess which has more variations in it than there are atoms in the known universe. So yes, comparing them is pointless and what you said does sound ridiculous  Then there are folks who prefer playing tic tac toe (to stick with the somewhat silly comparison) over Chess; there is plenty of room for both to coexist, without meaningless deamining of either party for prefering to play/compete within different sets of rules. That´s the type of debate the OP is annoyed with, and what I think you should take from his video - not so much that it´s an absolute truth that every game ever created is equal in terms of "legitimate competition and trial of skill". | ||
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Vogue
United States98 Posts
On June 10 2013 08:05 Glaive wrote: Then there are folks who prefer playing tic tac toe (to stick with the somewhat silly comparison) over Chess; there is plenty of room for both to coexist, without meaningless deamining of either party for prefering to play/compete within different sets of rules. That´s the type of debate the OP is annoyed with, and what I think you should take from his video - not so much that it´s an absolute truth that every game ever created is equal in terms of "legitimate competition and trial of skill". This is pretty much it exactly, I didn't think this point would have been so hard to get across but I guess either I wasn't clear enough/emphasized parts I just needed to touch on, or peoples' biases are too strong. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On June 10 2013 08:05 Glaive wrote: Tic tac toe has a right way and a wrong way to play it. If you´re playing tic tac toe you´re probably 5-7 years old and don´t care about much else than beating your peers at a very basic game. Vastly different from a game of chess which has more variations in it than there are atoms in the known universe. So yes, comparing them is pointless and what you said does sound ridiculous Then there are folks who prefer playing tic tac toe (to stick with the somewhat silly comparison) over Chess; there is plenty of room for both to coexist, without meaningless deamining of either party for prefering to play/compete within different sets of rules. That´s the type of debate the OP is annoyed with, and what I think you should take from his video - not so much that it´s an absolute truth that every game ever created is equal in terms of "legitimate competition and trial of skill". Look, if it's bean-bag tic-tac-toe, there's no way chess can win, because you would just throw a bean bag at the chess pieces and it'd be over. | ||
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Glaive
Sweden138 Posts
On June 10 2013 15:26 Vogue wrote: This is pretty much it exactly, I didn't think this point would have been so hard to get across but I guess either I wasn't clear enough/emphasized parts I just needed to touch on, or peoples' biases are too strong. Glad I could be of help  As I mentioned in the previous comment, I had no problem following your logic. I saw waaaay too many of these on the Wc3 forums. "Wc3 vs BW", "Dota vs Wc3", "Wc3 vs DoW" and so on and so forth. They always annoyed the crap out of me too because to me the point you wanted to get across was always abundantly clear. 5/5 | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On June 10 2013 08:05 Glaive wrote: Then there are folks who prefer playing tic tac toe (to stick with the somewhat silly comparison) over Chess; there is plenty of room for both to coexist, without meaningless deamining of either party for prefering to play/compete within different sets of rules. Unfortunately, this argument doesn't hold. Yeah, if esport was as big as soccer, it wouldn't be a problem, but it isn't. When there's a big LoL tournament, there are far fewer Dota 2 viewers. When there's a big dota 2 tournament like the international, other games lose viewers. The amount of people who watch esport is very limited, and there's fierce competition. If Lol died and Dota 2 got all of their viewers, it would be amazing for the dota 2 scene. The same is true for SC2. This is why people care. | ||
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ne0lith
537 Posts
On June 10 2013 17:11 Tobberoth wrote: Unfortunately, this argument doesn't hold. Yeah, if esport was as big as soccer, it wouldn't be a problem, but it isn't. When there's a big LoL tournament, there are far fewer Dota 2 viewers. When there's a big dota 2 tournament like the international, other games lose viewers. The amount of people who watch esport is very limited, and there's fierce competition. If Lol died and Dota 2 got all of their viewers, it would be amazing for the dota 2 scene. The same is true for SC2. This is why people care. And that's kinda besides the point made in the OP anyway. What people disagreed with was his argument about skill level, which basically implies that any game can be an e-sport because you're competing against people playing the same thing and the difficulty of being good relies solely on your opponent's strength. The only thing where the OP is right is that comparisons between games from different genres that have nothing to do with each other are pointless but then again, most level-headed people knew that. Besides that, his speech is simply using a flawed logic. | ||
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Glaive
Sweden138 Posts
On June 10 2013 17:11 Tobberoth wrote: Unfortunately, this argument doesn't hold. Yeah, if esport was as big as soccer, it wouldn't be a problem, but it isn't. When there's a big LoL tournament, there are far fewer Dota 2 viewers. When there's a big dota 2 tournament like the international, other games lose viewers. The amount of people who watch esport is very limited, and there's fierce competition. If Lol died and Dota 2 got all of their viewers, it would be amazing for the dota 2 scene. The same is true for SC2. This is why people care. Yes, there are small variances in viewership numbers. Ultimately though, the player- and fanbase of all these games are large enough to sustain themselves, and continuously grow. Including ratings. It´s only a problem because we´ve made it one. It absolutely doesn´t need to be. eSport will continue to grow regardless what happens to Dota2/LoL/Sc2 within the next few years, don´t worry. It´s only a matter of time before Soccer is the only sport in the world that eSport has not surpassed in terms of accesibility, ratings and money pumped into the industri. You heard it here first. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On June 10 2013 19:55 Glaive wrote: eSport will continue to grow regardless what happens to Dota2/LoL/Sc2 within the next few years, don´t worry. Maybe, but that's besides the point. Most of the people who argue about which esports game is better do not care about the esport scene in 10 years as much as they care about the scene surrounding their favorite game. Hell, in 10 years maybe the only esports scene which draws the numbers we see today is some new quake-style FPS. That will suck balls for people like me who find FPS uninteresting. | ||
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Glaive
Sweden138 Posts
I have some pretty ballsy predictions for the future, (been doing a ton of research for the book I´m working on) but I think in 10 years it´s safe to say every major genre will draw at least the numbers that LoL has today. I see no reason why the growth would slow down with the production value, sponsorship deals and major cash checks increasing at this amazing rate. Companies have finally learned how to get a good return on their investments into eSports. That´s why we´re able to see all these major events being hosted with huge backing behind them since roughly around LoLs explosive growth and the release of Sc2. Starcraft 2 especially has nothing to worry about, perhaps I´d be singing a different tune if I were a competitive LoL players (I doubt it though), it´s such a nische genre that will always have a fanbase that grows at a slow and steady pace. Apparently like half of my FB friends (met them all at giant Uni graduation party the other day) have started following my own progress as well as getting into Starcraft 2 because if its amazing appeal as a spectator sport. Hell, even my GF who´s never played a game of Starcraft in her life was so excited she accidentally spoiled some GSL results for me xD I don´t know about in other major cities right now, but alot of my friends who are in their 4th and 5th year (basically running the entire show, it´s hierarky based like that), are involved in all these "University Starleagues" and various LAN-tournaments being hosted in Stocholm. Incredibly fun events and fanstastic for scouting new talents. High school graduates who just started Uni, perhaps they played a ton of Sc2 in High School, these kids show up and some of them have some pretty sick skills (usually only in one area though). Been talking to some friends about creating an official KTH (The Royal Institinute of Technology) team. Everything is just running so smoothly now that my friends are employed by Google, Spotify, etc. and the rest running my University. The manpower and resources at our fingertops here in Stockholm alone is pretty insane. I hope the same is true in other major universities, Starcraft 2 and the more local fanbase will be seeing a lot more of http://www.kth.se/en and in 2011 it was ranked 53d in the world for Engineering & Technology (making it the highest ranked institution in Scandinavia) and 99th in the Natural Sciences. In 2010 Times Higher Education World University Rankings ranked KTH 5th My webdesigner is also runninig the Uni-SL, I´ll try to contact some old friends and see if we can´t get Thorzain, Naniwa and Glaive back together again at one of these upcoming events xD It´s going to be sick. I hope all of you university students are reading this. Take some initiate, your school isn´t stupid. They know how much money is involved in eSports already. If anyone reads this and wants some pointers in how to get something like this going at your shchool (LANs, tournaments, Finals) and have a budget for it, you can contact me at alexander.itg@gmail.com Making eSports a part of the education of young adults is paramount to take eSports to that next extremely level where we´ll start setting "eSports programs/school" It wasn´t really until I did all this research that I felt confident enough that my RTS skills as a player combined with my writing will definitely allow me to make a living off of my single greatest passion in life - within time. There is simply more room for people like me to dedicate themselves full-time to practicing and creating community content - if done right - and make "an okay" living. I don´t have high hopes for the immidiately, as I´m completely broke and can only find LAN-sponsorship. I just need to make it through the summer somehow, so I can continue practicing, competing at events and writing on the side. By then I´ll have hit GM and can start getting decent results at some of these events. | ||
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