On May 1st, we received an email from Jason Nye, League Operations at MLG giving us a start time for WCS America Invite-Only Challenger League Qualifier of 2pm EDT. As our guys were coming off of their GSTL win vs Prime last night, they went to bed around 10:30pm. Right before going to bed, Miya messaged the MLG admin that we typically speak with during qualifying events.
Now while I have a screenshot of this conversation, because of the personal information included in it, I will simply transcribe....
10:22pm KST Miya : please tell me when my game? wcs america 10:22pm KST Admin : Challenger? 10:23pm KST Miya : i'm wcs america code A 10:23pm KST Admin : ahh kk one sec Monday, May 6, 2013 at 4:30AM KST 10:23pm KST Miya : oh ok thx!! 10:33pm KST Miya : good night! 02:33am KST Admin : Hey, I wanted to correct a mistake I made, Its sunday may 5th at 4:30KST, not monday (Miya is already asleep, and the event is 2 hours away...)
As we have received emails from MLG recently about rescheduled matches for Premier League, changes in qualifier dates, etc., we were relying on the most up to date information from an MLG representative. With my focus being divded by SHOUTcraft America and other personal family matters, I did not question this change. I should have, but hindsight is 20/20 and so on.
At 3:30pm EDT I am contacted by an MLG Admin to inquire where Miya is. Confused, I asked why and he tells me that Miya's match is already delayed by 40 minutes or so due to other scheduling matters. I take that 40mins as a blessing and begin trying everything I can to get in touch with Miya. He's not online on Skype, doesn't respond to SMS, calling his cell, calling CranK's cell... With the help of Olivia ringing every player in the house and waking them all up, we reach Miya to let him know what has happened. By the time Miya is at his computer, it is 4:40pm EDT. I already knew by that point that it was very likely that Miya's opponent had been given a WO, and rightfully so under MLG rules. At 4:45pm EDT, I am informed by an admin that Miya is now in Losers Bracket Round 2 vs Sasquatch.
During all of this, I am talking to the admin to let him know I understand why Miya was not present for his match. I forward him a copy of the screenshot conversation. He was the admin who provided the incorrect information and his response was an apology. If this were some rinky dink show match with a $50 prize perhaps I could understand. An apology, however, is not going to fix the fact that Miya might now not qualify for Challenger, and thus might not have a chance to move up to Premier for the subsequent season. Burying my frustration, I write up a complaint with accompanying screen shots and send those to MLG. Trying to make the best out of what has happened, I try to find Miya's opponents and matches in the lower bracket.
6:05pm EDT Miya pastes this to me in Skype because he does not understand what is going on. He is just trying to find out who he is playing in the LB and this situation comes out of nowhere....
[coL] Sasquatch: i am very confused Zorgon: wait pls [EG] DeMusliMRC: Miya got walkovered earlier - because he didn't turn up, but they're talking about putting him back in the winners bracket, half way through mine and moosegills bo3 After moosegills waited for 2 hours for Miya [LaRe] Wiggin: Ok, so, here is the situation we have. Miya was incorrectly forfeited earlier due to an admin telling him the wrong time, causing a few players to play matches incorrectly. Obviously this is a situation noone wants, but what we believe the fairest way pos possible to deal with this iis to let Miya play the match he was forfeited from in W2 against Moosegills. [FXO] Moosegills: you think thats the fairest possible way he had no way to know when he should be up? [coL] Sasquatch: miya didn't get an email? [EG] DeMusliMRC: Sorry If that happens I forfeit You're choice Your* [FXO] Moosegills: its a matter of personal responsibility theres no way that you would do this if it was just some random player [LaRe] Wiggin: The admin error was telling him the incorrect time, that's the issue. [FXO] Moosegills: fire the admin then [coL] Sasquatch: miya didn't get an email from jason nye? @_@ 나의 메시지: I do not speak English well enough to explain to you in English. google trans;; 마지막 메시지 오전 7:00 [FXO] Moosegills: this is totally unacceptable that you think this is even an option [EG] DeMusliMRC: My problem is that, I didn't receive an email or time either, but I turned up correctly, Have been playing my matches over the course of the last 4 hours / waiting most of the time As have everybody else Those who fail to do so, for what ever reason Should be dealt with equally And he was forfeited, me and Moosegills are 1-1 in our series now After 40 minutes of playing we got msged - that we had to end the series Never mind the initial wait for Miya Meaning my match with moosegills be void entirely, I have to go back to waiting for an hour, moosegills has to then PLAY a player that he already waited for for 2 hours, then started playing a bo3 As he got walkovered Zorgon: We understanded your frustration, please bear with us as we try to deal with this in the fairest way possible. [LaRe] Wiggin: Just sit tight for a moment guys. [coL] Sasquatch: i was also told the wrong time can i play jim again please
Now let me take a minute here and say that while I agree with the players in this chat that the decision was unacceptable, threatening to forfeit does not really hurt the event in the long term. Sure the event organizers will take a bit of flack, but in my own opinion (and I only speak from my pov) it hurts the fans who cheer for you and it hurts the community as a whole. I understand that players in this industry, who have no collective bargaining rights without any centralized governing body to support them, might see this as an appropriate action to take as it really is one of the only powers that they do have. I am not trying to actively call anyone out by making this statement, but I just think that if we really want to bring more legitimacy to competitive eSports, the professional players and the event staff need to work together. Throwing your own chance at WCS Challenger, and potential advancement to Premier for next season is not worth it. When I arrived in the admin chat moments after the above conversation took place, I was surprised to notice that I was the only staff rep from any team in there. Again, I'm not trying to pass judgement, but I do want to state that I am a bit concerned that Ben was about to walk away from WCS for the season and there was no one in that chat, in his corner to fight the decisions being made.
So... it was at this point I unleashed probably the worst BM in my "professional" career. I say that with "s because in my opinion, I showed myself out quite badly today and I really regret using that kind of aggression against admins who were simply trying to resolve a problem that they had contributed to. My reasons for the aggression were 1) We were told the wrong date/time initially. 2) When the admin noted that he had given the wrong information, he made no attempt to contact the team staff. He simply left that message for Miya in hopes he would see it (in his sleep I guess). 3) This sudden attempt to resolve the issue by punishing innocent players was obviously a result of my complaint, yet I was never contacted. I never wanted Miya moved back up to the WB, I only wanted to file a complaint so that we might avoid these kinds of incidents in the future.
The situation as it stood at that time was that they wanted to cancel Demuslim vs Moosegills, take the WO away from Moosegills, render Sasquatch's loss to Miya in LB as a "casualty of war" with no resolve, and drag out the WB for all of the players involved. Well, I wasn't having it. I told them to leave Miya in the LB and let Moosegills vs Demuslim continue in the WB. Then, I went off to speak with the MLG Commissioner and MLG Adam. They of course thought I was crazy, and I don't blame them. They couldn't understand my reasoning and, from all of the reddit posts I've read since this incident happened, much of the community can't understand it either.
As a team owner, I see it as my job to take responsibility for the mistakes of my players, staff and myself. We might have been given the wrong information from an MLG official, but that does not excuse us entirely from any liability. Had I not been overly occupied with organizing SHOUTcraft America or dealing with recent family matters, I would have known that the qualifiers were only one day, and not two days. I would've been able to see from the bracket that the time Miya was given wasn't legitimate. Miya also has a responsibility to know his own match schedule days in advance and to prepare accordingly. If he had been focused on defeating his opponents, he would have seen the bracket which would have given him indication that the time he was given was incorrect.
I am very proud of what our team has been able to accomplish in less than a year. We are still new in my mind, and we have made mistakes and will surely make more. While many of you might see what I did as throwing one of my players under a bus, neither I, nor Miya see it as such. Seeing the admins try to wrong three players to right one was painful. Knowing what kind of pitchforks would lay in front of everyone involved in this matter, I did what I thought to be best for everyone. Sasquatch did not suffer elimination without cause, Moosegills kept his WO, Demuslim got to continue his series to win his spot for Challenger and (assuming most of the final slot matches would be cast on stream) the community would not be cheated by having players forfeit. It has appeared that there has been a seeker missile with Demuslim's name on it for the past month with regard to WCS, and even though I know he probably would not do the same if the tables were reversed, I like to think that I made the right call.
So what happens now? After being eliminated by Top, Miya will not be competing in WCS Challenger, but will instead devote his full attention to training for our upcoming GSTL matches. I will be addressing the MLG Online Team on Monday with suggestions on how they might improve communications with players and teams before, after and during events. Goodness knows if I had the time and support, I'd be breaking ground on some sort of coalition to improve relations between events and players/teams. Players like to complain a lot about teams and events just as events like to complain a lot about players and teams. Instead of continuing this fractured relationship, we are the ones who need to be making the moves to advance this scene. The community can only do so much on it's own. Without the players, there is no event. Without events, what we have right now will wither and eventually die. Make good choices, even if they aren't always the easy ones.
Genna, I'm very impressed by how you handled this. You could have probably insisted Miya's WB walkover be reversed and let him take the easier road to try to qualify, but instead you argued for the best resolution to be fair to the rest of his bracket.
Although it's sad you guys got screwed, you were being the adult here. The people threatening to forfeit in protest were being a bit silly, but you had the right idea, even if it ultimately lost Miya his Challenger spot.
Not sure why admins are trying to give match times in KST instead of putting it all in local time like EST because it's WCS America and letting others convert it for themselves.
Best decision you could have made Gen, considering the circumstances. I applaud you and Miya for staying level headed and thinking with your head and not letting the emotions of the moment causing you to make a stupid decison
I think your anger through the situation was well targeted and justified, WCS is still stumbling over itself, but your actions and decisions are inspiring to see. Fighting not for what's best for your player but for the whole situation while the players/admins squabbled over it shows the kind overall maturity and further staff needed in case of these sort of situations. Really well done, and I hope MLG aren't just satisfied with sacking one admin, but also how to improve and prevent these sort of things completely.
Anyway, Axiom just became even more awesome in my eyes with its already amazing pool of talent in its players and evidently its managers and I can't wait for SHOUTcraft!
u are a trully lady genna! say that, the MLG is a MESS, but i agree with you, if miya pay enough attention he would know which time his match are gonna be played, everyone even the spectators knows which time the qualifiers gonna start.
I still think you should have fought for your player more, rather than give up. Unless the player is in the wrong, a team should always go to bat for their player. I don't believe demu and moose were getting screwed over. They would have just played the bracket like it should have been played. Instead they took the easy way out and let miya go out on a technicality. Demuslim must really hate mlg at the moment cause he was the guy who gave scarlet a regame for forgetting her spawning pool before. Today he is the person screwing miya over on a technicality.
Nothing but respect for how you handled this situation, hopefully this is a one-time incident and things like this can be avoided in the future with better communication -_-
On May 05 2013 14:50 Canucklehead wrote: I still think you should have fought for your player more, rather than give up. I don't believe demu and moose were getting screwed over. They would have just played the bracket like it should have been played. Instead they took the easy way out and let miya go out on a technicality. Demu must really hate mlg at the moment cause he was the guy who gave scarlet a regame for forgetting her spawning pool before. Today he is the person screwing miya over on a technicality.
You don't really understand the situation.... Moosegills waited 2+ hours for Miya to get online while admins repeatedly pushed the schedule back and extended the walkover deadline. Finally, they advance him in the bracket (walkover), he and demuslim start playing their series. Miya gets on and plays his losers bracket match versus Sasquatch, winning 2-0 and knocking him out of the tournament. Then, MLG realizes that their admin told Miya the wrong time, and decides to try and undo the losers bracket match between sasquatch and miya, put miya back in the winners bracket a round ago, and undo the 2 games that moosegills and demuslim played (remember, this is after waiting 2+ hours for miya to get on originally).
Genna went out of her way to fight against the MLG admins decision to go "oops we fucked up sry we're just gonna undo the past 3 hours of the tournament." She didn't "give up", if she had, MLG would have put Miya back in winners bracket and Demuslim and Moosegills would have forfeited. To say she "gave up" or that "Demuslim is the person screwing miya over on a technicality" only shows that you didn't understand the majority of Genna's post
On May 05 2013 14:50 Canucklehead wrote: I still think you should have fought for your player more, rather than give up. I don't believe demu and moose were getting screwed over. They would have just played the bracket like it should have been played. Instead they took the easy way out and let miya go out on a technicality. Demu must really hate mlg at the moment cause he was the guy who gave scarlet a regame for forgetting her spawning pool before. Today he is the person screwing miya over on a technicality.
You don't really understand the situation.... Moosegills waited 2+ hours for Miya to get online while admins repeatedly pushed the schedule back and extended the walkover deadline. Finally, they advance him in the bracket (walkover), he and demuslim start playing their series. Miya gets on and plays his losers bracket match versus Sasquatch, winning 2-0 and knocking him out of the tournament. Then, MLG realizes that their admin told Miya the wrong time, and decides to try and undo the losers bracket match between sasquatch and miya, put miya back in the winners bracket a round ago, and undo the 2 games that moosegills and demuslim played (remember, this is after waiting 2+ hours for miya to get on originally).
Genna went out of her way to fight against the MLG admins decision to go "oops we fucked up sry we're just gonna undo the past 3 hours of the tournament." She didn't "give up", if she had, MLG would have put Miya back in winners bracket and Demuslim and Moosegills would have forfeited.
No, I understand the situation. Rules are rules. I'm just saying if I was a player, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, knowing I didn't qualify by earning it the right way, rather than a technicality. I'd rather beat a player fair and square, rather than avoid them on a technicality. It's an issue of sportsmanship and integrity over rules I'm talking about.
On May 05 2013 14:50 Canucklehead wrote: I still think you should have fought for your player more, rather than give up. I don't believe demu and moose were getting screwed over. They would have just played the bracket like it should have been played. Instead they took the easy way out and let miya go out on a technicality. Demu must really hate mlg at the moment cause he was the guy who gave scarlet a regame for forgetting her spawning pool before. Today he is the person screwing miya over on a technicality.
You don't really understand the situation.... Moosegills waited 2+ hours for Miya to get online while admins repeatedly pushed the schedule back and extended the walkover deadline. Finally, they advance him in the bracket (walkover), he and demuslim start playing their series. Miya gets on and plays his losers bracket match versus Sasquatch, winning 2-0 and knocking him out of the tournament. Then, MLG realizes that their admin told Miya the wrong time, and decides to try and undo the losers bracket match between sasquatch and miya, put miya back in the winners bracket a round ago, and undo the 2 games that moosegills and demuslim played (remember, this is after waiting 2+ hours for miya to get on originally).
Genna went out of her way to fight against the MLG admins decision to go "oops we fucked up sry we're just gonna undo the past 3 hours of the tournament." She didn't "give up", if she had, MLG would have put Miya back in winners bracket and Demuslim and Moosegills would have forfeited.
No, I understand the situation. Rules are rules. I'm just saying if I was a player, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, knowing I didn't qualify by earning it the right way, rather than a technicality. I'd rather beat a player fair and square, rather than avoid them on a technicality. It's an issue of sportsmanship and integrity over rules I'm talking about.
Wouldn't it be unsportsman-like to throw your opponent under the bus by letting MLG nullify two games you already played and making your opponent play a previous round he thought he had won simply because his opponent in the previous round had bad luck?
Would you make the same argument if it wasn't a high-level Korean but instead a no-name NA GM? I doubt it.
Plus, doing anything other than what was done would have thrown the whole tournament into chaos.
On May 05 2013 14:50 Canucklehead wrote: I still think you should have fought for your player more, rather than give up. I don't believe demu and moose were getting screwed over. They would have just played the bracket like it should have been played. Instead they took the easy way out and let miya go out on a technicality. Demu must really hate mlg at the moment cause he was the guy who gave scarlet a regame for forgetting her spawning pool before. Today he is the person screwing miya over on a technicality.
You don't really understand the situation.... Moosegills waited 2+ hours for Miya to get online while admins repeatedly pushed the schedule back and extended the walkover deadline. Finally, they advance him in the bracket (walkover), he and demuslim start playing their series. Miya gets on and plays his losers bracket match versus Sasquatch, winning 2-0 and knocking him out of the tournament. Then, MLG realizes that their admin told Miya the wrong time, and decides to try and undo the losers bracket match between sasquatch and miya, put miya back in the winners bracket a round ago, and undo the 2 games that moosegills and demuslim played (remember, this is after waiting 2+ hours for miya to get on originally).
Genna went out of her way to fight against the MLG admins decision to go "oops we fucked up sry we're just gonna undo the past 3 hours of the tournament." She didn't "give up", if she had, MLG would have put Miya back in winners bracket and Demuslim and Moosegills would have forfeited.
No, I understand the situation. Rules are rules. I'm just saying if I was a player, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, knowing I didn't qualify by earning it the right way, rather than a technicality. I'd rather beat a player fair and square, rather than avoid them on a technicality. It's an issue of sportsmanship and integrity over rules I'm talking about.
Ben followed the rules while MLG was trying to rewrite the rules and the tournament results on the fly because of their own mistakes. Genna said "Let's stick to the rules that were agreed to - the written rules". That was the right thing to do. Showing up on time is not a "technicality". It doesn't matter how good you are, if you aren't there for your match, you lose. There are limits to sportsmanship. Ben was wrong to allow Scarlett to regame, and he realized that after the fact. It would have been wrong to allow Miya to be reinserted in the bracket after the walkovers.
Mad props to Genna, I would rate this 10 stars if I could.
Thanks for the thoughts. This is a really horrible situation, because no matter the resolution someone is going to get screwed. I don't think there is any possible solution that leaves all parties satisfied.
In your shoes I don't know that I would have the piece of mind to settle it that way, especially after MLG was ready to let Miya play even after Moosegills and DeMuslim had started their match. That's definitely an unexpected decision so props to you for deciding that was the best course of action.
Genna, while she had the best intentions, threw her own player under the bus to please Demuslim and "saving the tournament". Two things that shouldn't be any of her concern. Let EG fight for Demuslim because that's their responsibility, while yours is to your own player.
Also I find Demuslim and that other guy's behavior unacceptable, they pretty much threw a tantrum and tried to blackmail MLG knowing that the community mob would fall in behind them.
Edit: Should also add that the bigger issue in all of this is MLG's incompetence when it comes to organizing online tournaments, which is very concerning.
I don't quite understand the point of the thread.....are we supposed to be seeing an outrage? What's with airing all this chat and stuff essentially blackmailing players and MLG.
Sometime you are such a perfect woman in esports. I will dream at night about your position, think of you as Miranda in the Dark Knight Rise and hoping that one day, you wont turn into the darkside and nuclear bomb us. Best of luck! Big fan of Axiom . Please move to DotA2 asap.
On May 05 2013 15:36 Eury wrote: Genna, while she had the best intentions, threw her own player under the bus to please Demuslim and "saving the tournament". Two things that shouldn't be any of her concern. Let EG fight for Demuslim because that's their responsibility, while yours is to your own player.
Also I find Demuslim and that other guy's behavior unacceptable, they pretty much threw a tantrum and tried to blackmail MLG knowing that the community mob would fall in behind them.
How dare players blackmail an organization to follow it's own rules!?!?
It is pretty silly for MLG to let Miya back into the WB. Walk overs are walk overs. As much as the circumstances suck, the MLG admins have to keep the event rolling and if someone isn't there then they are W.O'd - it's players responsibility to be there.
You are right, at the end of the day it was Axiom's responsibility to ensure their player was online for the qualifier. I personally received an email for a player from my team and ensured they where awake and online to play (for them it was a 6am start).
By no means am I blaming you, as you said - you've got a lot on! Did MLG contact you or someone from your team with an email outlining the play times etc? This info to team managers needs to be consistant. MLG have had quite a few minor errors with the WCS qualification and really need to address things for season 2 - hopefully they can do this....
gl to Miya, hopefully we can see him crushing nerds in the next WCS season.
EDIT: Also, to everyone attacking Demu etc.. I think its pretty fair for them to be upset - its really really poor form to give someone special treatment to reinstate them after a Walk Over. Especially when they are already into game 3 of the next series. Tournaments need to flow. If they had of put Miya back into WB then the lower bracket would have been 3-4 hours behind. Thats a pretty big deal imo. Need to get things moving.. The real issue is that Axiom management were (perhaps?) not contacted about the play times (other team managers & players were via email) and that the admin gave incorrect information about the qualifier time and didn't seek direct communication with Axiom to correct the error..
EPT
Fighting not for what's best for your player but for the whole situation while the players/admins squabbled over it shows the kind overall maturity and further staff needed in case of these sort of situations. Really well done, and I hope MLG aren't just satisfied with sacking one admin, but also how to improve and prevent these sort of things completely. 
. Please move to DotA2 asap.
