On May 06 2013 02:03 DoomsVille wrote: Ultimately the fault lies with Miya. Admin's are people. They make mistakes. If you rely entirely on them then you're going to be misled every now and then. If the information was easily accessible (which it was) then there's no reason the player shouldn't know exactly what time to show up. Language barrier does not excuse the player of his responsibility.
It was mentioned over and over again, that the easily accessible informations are not right, because they were often wrong in the past...
On May 05 2013 17:08 BirdKiller wrote: 2 points coming off from reading this:
1. It was indeed Miya's personal responsibility to know his/her match schedule ahead of time. The fact that Miya's team was aware of the schedule on May 1st, yet Miya was asking about it the day before the match, leaves some room for improvement on his/her team. Miya even asking two days before the match could have prevented this from happening. Miya and his team could've prevented this incident between May 1st to May 4th.
Nope, you really can't. WCS has proven up to this point that these dates and times given out via email or by the site cannot be relied upon as being accurate as they frequently change. Information from admins trumps everything. If an admin says Time Y and the email says Time X then you assume Time Y is correct.
On May 05 2013 23:44 DarkLordOlli wrote: The only reason why I brought this up is because he's been hating on TL staff in the HerO vs major thread as well without actually understanding the difference between the community website and the team.
Now, back to the actual discussion. I don't think Wax was wrong. He wasn't very nice about it but he wasn't wrong.
When was Wax supposed to be a nice guy? It's always been his style. I guess some people are still learning that about him. He's not the type of guy who will hold your hand.
Tough style to pull off when you also happen to hold moderation rights, what can I say.
...the standard couch-comments from people who've never even been close to a similar situation.
I guess you haven't met a lot of the staff. They could have dealt with it better (I don't mean the TL staff). That's funny because it happened all the time in BW. Endless disputes in clan leagues and the whole nine yards. o;
On May 06 2013 02:03 DoomsVille wrote: The most ridiculous part of this entire thing is that MLG was willing to put Miya back into the winner's bracket. That makes absolutely no sense. If he was a random no-name scrub they would never have considered doing that.
That's the interesting question, isn't it? Swap Moosegills and Miya. Moosegills was given the wrong information, Miya and DeMusliM are currently playing their match where the winner has a code A spot. Moosegills shows up, what happens?
Based on what I've heard happening at MLG live events, I would expect: - MLG would not have delayed the previous round's walkover time by two hours, like they did for Miya. - they tell Moosegills "Sorry, play in the losers bracket".
On May 06 2013 02:03 DoomsVille wrote: The most ridiculous part of this entire thing is that MLG was willing to put Miya back into the winner's bracket. That makes absolutely no sense. If he was a random no-name scrub they would never have considered doing that.
That's the interesting question, isn't it? Swap Moosegills and Miya. Moosegills was given the wrong information, Miya and DeMusliM are currently playing their match where the winner has a code A spot. Moosegills shows up, what happens?
Based on what I've heard happening at MLG live events, I would expect: - MLG would not have delayed the previous round's walkover time by two hours, like they did for Miya. - they tell Moosegills "Sorry, play in the losers bracket".
I'm actually surprised that they didn't simply forfeited moosegills and make miya play versus demuslim right when miya showed up (sarcasm)
Many people are asking 'why couldn't the team check on the original information?' followed by the statement that the original info can often change and be actually wrong later.
Here's the chat logs that Genna provided (thanks Genna and TB for having an awesome team and being willing to get into the trenches for them):
On May 05 2013 14:27 Intricacy wrote:
10:22pm KST Miya : please tell me when my game? wcs america 10:22pm KST Admin : Challenger? 10:23pm KST Miya : i'm wcs america code A 10:23pm KST Admin : ahh kk one sec Monday, May 6, 2013 at 4:30AM KST 10:23pm KST Miya : oh ok thx!! 10:33pm KST Miya : good night! 02:33am KST Admin : Hey, I wanted to correct a mistake I made, Its sunday may 5th at 4:30KST, not monday (Miya is already asleep, and the event is 2 hours away...)
The one thing that could have maybe prevented this would have been to ask the question "Is the game still on Sunday @ ______ time?" instead of just the question "when is it?", because you have a definite timestamp to check. Unfortunately, for players competing in WCS NA who are not native English speakers, being careful to have that level of precision is not always practical or reasonable. Of course the admin could have messed up then, too, but then we'd have an unequivocal situation where a major mistake was made because of a provision of an actually correct time being denied by an MLG official.
All in all, this really highlights what Genna said about a need for better communication amongst the tournament organizers and teams. It would suck hard, but we may reach the point where the team manager/captain/whatever actually needs to phone or Skype call or Google Phone the admins the day of the original schedule just to check that something hasn't gone sideways in the last day. Really unfortunate if that's the case; we shouldn't have to do that in an era where instantaneous updates can be provided to a website (hell, airports manage it with thousands of flights a day). Adding to that, there needs to be a contact list maintained by the tournament to send out an APB on any critical changes to scheduling.
I don't know why people are screaming bias for miya and saying they wouldn't have done the same for a no name. They were only taking this stance because it was their fault to begin with. Also miya isn't even really one of the more popular Koreans. It's not like they were screwing Jaedong here.
I still don't believe demuslim or moose were getting screwed if miya was put back into the bracket. All they lost was time but it's mid afternoon for them and they barely played many games up to this point so it's not like they were tired. Still believe Mlg made the best decision initially to fix their error. Playing the original bracket out was the fairest situation for all in my opinion.
On May 06 2013 02:22 Canucklehead wrote: I don't know why people are screaming bias for miya and saying they wouldn't have done the same for a no name. They were only taking this stance because it was their fault to begin with. Also miya isn't even really one of the more popular Koreans. It's nott like they were screwing Jaedong here.
I still don't believe demuslim or moose were getting screwed if miya was put back into the bracket. All they lost was time but it's mid afternoon for them and they barely played many games up to this point so it's not like they were tired. Still believe Mlg made the best decision initially to fix their error. Playing the original bracket out was the fairest situation for all in my opinion.
The problem with this this is that after pretty much every MLG with an open bracket their is at least one and sometimes 2 or 3 notable NA pro,s and even Crank once who have been DQ,d for showing up 10-15 mins late for a match as an admin told them the wrong info and the response was tough luck deal with it.
MLG have had this happen to them so often I expect this sort of shit right now. Also I disagree that putting Miya back in is the correct response and that was only possible because MLG were waiting so long for Miya to show up, If MLG had given their usual 15-20 mins then the DeMu Moos games would more than likely have been over. Add into that that if either player breaks out a cheese or all in on a certain map to claim a game against the other and then Moose beats Miya then your not back at the same point the situation is very different now with that information known to the players.
Now now now... This whole thing reminds me when TLO was playing code a qualifier and reached the finals against Inori. He was told he had to play a bo5, but when he was winning 2-1 the admins realised the rules said bo3. Since he is super mannered, he was fine with playing the remaining matches. But this kind of errors should not happen.
On May 06 2013 02:22 Canucklehead wrote: I don't know why people are screaming bias for miya and saying they wouldn't have done the same for a no name. They were only taking this stance because it was their fault to begin with. Also miya isn't even really one of the more popular Koreans. It's nott like they were screwing Jaedong here.
I still don't believe demuslim or moose were getting screwed if miya was put back into the bracket. All they lost was time but it's mid afternoon for them and they barely played many games up to this point so it's not like they were tired. Still believe Mlg made the best decision initially to fix their error. Playing the original bracket out was the fairest situation for all in my opinion.
Because they never do.
As MarcH said, it happened like 3-4 times at basically every single MLG there ever was and they didn't give a fuck, they didn't reverse anything during WCS Premier Division Qualifiers where they fucked shit up a lot more than yesterday and everything continued as it was.
In the Premier Qualifiers they should have re-played the whole bracket after they disqualified Comm one game away from qualifying, technically all of his games shouldn't have counted.
Hyun knocked out multiple players after MLG DQed him the first time and they didn't re-play anything.
Hell, they should have restarted the whole qualifier because the Chinese players were given wrong information regarding their place in the brackets and afterwards they learned that they weren't actually in when they thought they were in.
On May 06 2013 02:22 Canucklehead wrote: I don't know why people are screaming bias for miya and saying they wouldn't have done the same for a no name. They were only taking this stance because it was their fault to begin with. Also miya isn't even really one of the more popular Koreans. It's nott like they were screwing Jaedong here.
I still don't believe demuslim or moose were getting screwed if miya was put back into the bracket. All they lost was time but it's mid afternoon for them and they barely played many games up to this point so it's not like they were tired. Still believe Mlg made the best decision initially to fix their error. Playing the original bracket out was the fairest situation for all in my opinion.
Because they never do.
As MarcH said, it happened like 3-4 times at basically every single MLG there ever was and they didn't give a fuck, they didn't reverse anything during WCS Premier Division Qualifiers where they fucked shit up a lot more than yesterday and everything continued as it was.
In the Premier Qualifiers they should have re-played the whole bracket after they disqualified Comm one game away from qualifying, technically all of his games shouldn't have counted.
Hyun knocked out multiple players after MLG DQed him the first time and they didn't re-play anything.
Hell, they should have restarted the whole qualifier because the Chinese players were given wrong information regarding their place in the brackets and afterwards they learned that they weren't actually in when they thought they were in.
On May 06 2013 01:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think that the basis of good team management is standing by your players with integrity. If Genna felt that the best decision for the tournament was to let Miya go to the losers bracket then that is something everyone should respect. Likewise I am sure that she would fight really hard for her player if she felt a bad decision was affecting them negatively. Carrying yourself in such a manner will allow organizations to take you more serious when you come and ask to be heard. The way Liquid is ran is if you have a case; fight for it. If you don't; don't. Personally I do think Genna had a case for the winners bracket spot being the best solution for the tournament, however that is just a difference in opinion. I do agree with her philosophy, and try to follow it myself as well.
I can't help but think there could have been a better result than this. There are no strict guidelines for a situation like this. MLG rules do not reflect the fact that they themselves provided the wrong starting time. Every choice you make will hurt people in one way or another. In that sense there is no right and wrong and every view on the situation should be treated with respect. The way I see the bracket is that placing Miya back into winners takes DeMusliM and Moosegills from a positive situation to a neutral one (with the added note that DeMusliM being up one game affects him negatively if he was to be put back at 0-0), whereas putting Miya in the losers takes him from neutral to negative. With all of that in mind I think MLG's original ruling was a fair decision.
Whenever there are decisions without any sort of guidelines there are also other variables that you can look at to use. For example what if Miya had been put into the winners bracket, and if he had beaten Moosegills he gets a 0-1 disadvantage against DeMusliM, who was already up 1-0 in the winners final. Or you can put Miya in the losers bracket but offer to let him play in an MLG hosted showmatch for $500. No decision you make here will ever be completely balanced. These other variables can be used to pull a (necessary) imbalanced decision more towards a neutral result for everyone.
Not that it changes your story / your view much, but I was up over Demuslim 1-0 when they made us pause then game and then 1-1 after we finished the game. Making us both exactly 1 game away from making it.
So in my opinion, both due to our time investment in this tournament (waiting a lot), and both of us being one game away from making it, putting Miya in the winners bracket it makes it quite a negative situation for both me and demuslim, not (possibly) neutral one for either.
On May 06 2013 01:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I can't help but think there could have been a better result than this. There are no strict guidelines for a situation like this. MLG rules do not reflect the fact that they themselves provided the wrong starting time. Every choice you make will hurt people in one way or another. In that sense there is no right and wrong and every view on the situation should be treated with respect. The way I see the bracket is that placing Miya back into winners takes DeMusliM and Moosegills from a positive situation to a neutral one (with the added note that DeMusliM being up one game affects him negatively if he was to be put back at 0-0), whereas putting Miya in the losers takes him from neutral to negative. With all of that in mind I think MLG's original ruling was a fair decision.
Just to nitpick and speculate a bit - I would imagine (without knowing the rules) that the rules state something in the lines, that when the player does not show up on time he will be giving a walkover to his opponent *without* specifying who's fault it would have to be. So in that context, an MLG admin is a third party (besides the two players) in the context of the rules, so they would be equivalent to let's say a bus driver who randomly hit your car and caused you to not make it to your match. In this scenario the rules would be quite clear in my opinion and the w/o given to Mr.Gills is legit. And subsequently undoing the w/o would be against the rules of the tournament (I'm pretty sure if a random bus driver caused the late thingy, there would be any conversation regarding whether the w/o should be undone or not).
It seems to me, that from the rules perspective taking back a legit w/o is a rather very weird thing to do to Moosegills.
In the end this is a mistake by MLG admin, but the blame should probably be directed at Sundance. This is not a mistake an admin should be able to make in the first place in my opinion - the correct answer for Miya's question includes a link to the schedule. The admin in question probably has someone above him and below Sundance, who's responsible for the scheduling those things, but I think this is general enough mess to blame it on Sunny (he can reprimand his subjects as he sees fit, but it's really mostly his fault as far as I can see). The admin messed up quite badly, but the point being that he shouldn't have been able to mess this up at all (at least not so easily).
PS. Most of the above is based on the assumption that the scheduling is not on "when an admin tells you to play" basis according to the rules. If it is then the w/o is not valid and according to the tournament rules the matches should be replayed and the Moongills-DeMusliM match is invalid at this point.
PS.PS. Couldn't they have rescheduled the match after they found out that Miya was given a wrong time - it was quite obvious the mistake was known before the the scheduled start (just delay the whole bracket as much as required till Miya is woken).
Mad props to Genna for keeping up the Bain reputation of being awesome!
Whether the ruling was right or not, I don't know.. can debate it all day. However, I can't see how people are painting Moosegills and Demu in such a negative light?
It wasn't there fuck up... they were 1-1 in a match to see who would advance in NA Code A whilst being stopped and started by admins trying to force a bracket reset. Now, if I were Moosegills I'd be pretty pissed about this! I'm a relative unknown, on the verge of qualifying into a tournament which could propel not only my rep, but my career... suddenly, after waiting for a considerable amount of time for Miya and then for Demu to play Kawaii, im being told all of my efforts, through no fault of my own, are invalid? Erm yeah... you're going to react pretty bitterly, and calling bias, whilst (i'd like to hope) not right, is probably an understandable release of frustration!
Now, for Demu... after the whole Premier League invite debate Id say he was already pretty irritated with MLG. Then, after proceeding to within a game of qualifying to the Premier League, he loses... not MLG's fault, but still pretty frustrating, especially after playing the way he did! Now, the Challenger qualifiers, within 1 game (AGAIN) of qualifying for a WCS and MLG are pausing his games and telling him to restart the entire winners bracket? With no representation and no bargaining tools I like to think that his threat of forfeiting was not only logical, but also, justified. He must have been feeling at that point that MLG was truly out to get him... Demu isn't a BM guy, when he's vocal, he's vocal about tournament scheduling/treatment etc, again, justifiable.
Regardless of what the right course of action was, Moosegills and Demu were standing up for themselves in an incredibly pressured situation, after waiting hours upon hours for MLG to get their act together (again). Id say the way they acted was understandable, and anyone that argues otherwise obviously lacks the potential to emphasise with people in their situation...
On May 06 2013 01:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think that the basis of good team management is standing by your players with integrity. If Genna felt that the best decision for the tournament was to let Miya go to the losers bracket then that is something everyone should respect. Likewise I am sure that she would fight really hard for her player if she felt a bad decision was affecting them negatively. Carrying yourself in such a manner will allow organizations to take you more serious when you come and ask to be heard. The way Liquid is ran is if you have a case; fight for it. If you don't; don't. Personally I do think Genna had a case for the winners bracket spot being the best solution for the tournament, however that is just a difference in opinion. I do agree with her philosophy, and try to follow it myself as well.
I can't help but think there could have been a better result than this. There are no strict guidelines for a situation like this. MLG rules do not reflect the fact that they themselves provided the wrong starting time. Every choice you make will hurt people in one way or another. In that sense there is no right and wrong and every view on the situation should be treated with respect. The way I see the bracket is that placing Miya back into winners takes DeMusliM and Moosegills from a positive situation to a neutral one (with the added note that DeMusliM being up one game affects him negatively if he was to be put back at 0-0), whereas putting Miya in the losers takes him from neutral to negative. With all of that in mind I think MLG's original ruling was a fair decision.
Whenever there are decisions without any sort of guidelines there are also other variables that you can look at to use. For example what if Miya had been put into the winners bracket, and if he had beaten Moosegills he gets a 0-1 disadvantage against DeMusliM, who was already up 1-0 in the winners final. Or you can put Miya in the losers bracket but offer to let him play in an MLG hosted showmatch for $500. No decision you make here will ever be completely balanced. These other variables can be used to pull a (necessary) imbalanced decision more towards a neutral result for everyone.
The only problem was that the situation couldn't be solved behind curtains and was already spread to reddit. The fact the DeMusliM wanted to forfeit his spot if Miya got placed back made the situation very hard to solve correctly and fair overall. As Reddit already had put lot's of discussion and hate towards the error that has been made the dropout of DeMusliM whould only have increased the whole rage towards MLG (or the admin who made the fault). Genna had a tough descission to make but i agree with what she did because overall she saved the face of MLG, put her Brand in a nice light regarding sportsmanship and she (most of all) avoided the whole drama that whould've happened if Miya got placed in WB and DeMusliM then forfeited his spot. As part of the community i appreciate the sacrifice she and Miya made to solve this quickly even if i'm a bit sad Miya didn't manage to qualify.
Ok, i'm reading some comments here and i honestly can't believe some of them...
So, let's think about this for a second... the problem was between MLG and MIYA/Axiom...DemusliM and Moosegills just waited for him to show up, he didnt, they kept the schedule going and started playing their series, they had absolutely nothing to do with the lack or organization by MLG and Miya, they were just keeping on with their tournamente runs as they should... then all of a sudden some admin says.
"hey, i'm sorry, we fucked up yesterday telling our korean superstar the wrong time to play, could you please undo your 2+ hours of waiting and your 2 game series so we can try to fix our mistake and dont stain our image cuz we suck at organizing shit?...pretty please?"
HELL NO! They did nothing wrong, they showed up in time, they waited for the player... and now they have to pay for someone else's mistake in such a big and important tournament? I mean, Demuslim and Moosegills were actually gentlemans in that situation using the words "please" and "sorry", i'd have absolutely bm'ed every single admin because the incompetent people really piss me off.
Ok now, for miya's side of things... it's not his fault either... He asked the admin what was the correct time to show up, he did his part right there asking for information to an administration member.
THE ADMIN TOLD HIM THE FREAKING WRONG TIME!
It's pretty obvious the flaw was on the MLG side of things, if you say to someone to show up at 2.pm... and then realize they should show up at 12am... it's your fucking responsability to let that person know you passed some wrong information, even if that means calling Genna at 3:30am with a humble voice saying
"Hey Genna, i hate to wake you up, but i screwed up really bad and told Miya the wrong time he has to play, i'm really reeeeeeeeeeeally sorry about this, could you please contact him for me as soon as possible?! Any questions i'll be available throught the whole day at 9999-9999 or johndoe@email.com, thank you a lot, and again, i'm sorry about this, hope it doesnt affect his tournament run"
It's your fucking fault and YOU SHOULD be afraid to get fired for something like that... i dont care if you dont have Genna's number to call her, i mean, you are an ADMIN for a reason, deal with it and figure out some way to undo your mistake untill it's too late.
Props to Genna for being the adult here, and realizing, even tho Axiom/Miya had no part on this, if they let MLG put Miya back in WB, shit would hit the fan. Thanks for the maturity.
TLDR: it's not players fault, neither miya, demuslim or moosegills were to blame... mlg has to put their shit togheter if they wanna run something big like that. Props to Genna
That's interesting because a) wax isn't really involved in the scenario. All he did was tell a few guys to quit bitching about a decision that isn't really in their hands and b) wax doesn't really give a fuck about what anyone thinks about him.
hehehe i got blocked from TB, genna and axiom's twitter after i asked questions about this blog
the aftermath on how MLG tried to fix the problems that occured was just tasteless, a rule is a rule, and the first ruling that is made should stand.
what i belive/think was the problem from the first place is inside axiom, they need to have a good chain of command to follow, and not let their players try to fix everything for themself when the language barrier is so hard.
they should have a white board and a monthly schedule to follow, is that so hard? they did get the correct times in an email 4-5 days prior to challanger league started.
allso wanna give a shoutout to Genna, TB and Axiom even tho im blocked from your twitters im still a fan!
On May 07 2013 00:37 ftjust wrote: hehehe i got blocked from TB, genna and axiom's twitter after i asked questions about this blog
the aftermath on how MLG tried to fix the problems that occured was just tasteless, a rule is a rule, and the first ruling that is made should stand.
what i belive/think was the problem from the first place is inside axiom, they need to have a good chain of command to follow, and not let their players try to fix everything for themself when the language barrier is so hard.
they should have a white board and a monthly schedule to follow, is that so hard? they did get the correct times in an email 4-5 days prior to challanger league started.
allso wanna give a shoutout to Genna, TB and Axiom even tho im blocked from your twitters im still a fan!
Because you don't know anything. You're one of those people who is desperate to share their opinion even though they don't have all the facts. I have no idea why, it's a strange internet phenomenon. You don't know enough about how Axiom runs, how WCS runs, how MLG operates to intelligently contribute to this discussion.
EPT
(sarcasm)
