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Demuslim has lost my respect, especially after that completely delusional post on reddit claiming that he did all this for the sake of sportsmanship. It's really sad that he felt like he needed to make a power play like that and it's even worse that he justifies himself and paints himself as the just party.
Moose, while not really at fault for anything, behaves like he thinks he's being persecuted in that chatlog. He also sounds rather belligerent in this thread.
This entire WCS NA thing sucks. Coming from NASL's adroit handling on online material last year to this leaves a stark contrast in mind. I'm unfortunately enjoying watching "foreign" SC2 less this year than last year despite the volume of good matches that are occurring.
I hope NASL is starting up again soon. Before this, I was on the fence about buying another season due to the expansive amount of SC2 content out there, now I'm just waiting to hand them the money I made trading dota2 cosmetics.
I almost feel like contracting a college SC2 club would be cheaper and more effective than MLG's admins after the course of this last month of starcraft.
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On May 05 2013 16:16 iNcontroL wrote:
Hmm I very much so understand your perspective Genna (speaking specifically to the demu/moosegills portion) but I have to emphasize a part of what you have already said: Players have no power here.
Demuslim is dragged into a MLG instigated debacle at a point in time where he is yet again 1 map away from qualification for a meaningful WCS league and he is told he may have to pretend that series never happened and wait even more for an opponent. What options does Demuslim have? You say leagues and players have to work together but where is the unity in this? League says "sorry we messed up and as a consolation to you we offer nothing but our apology.. on the bright side you can play more starcraft!" Demuslim offers back, what? His only power is to protest by withdrawal. If he says "I will file a complaint!" That will get him nothing. If he drops himself it creates a public stir that DOES get results.
Demuslim is capable of beating miya, sasquatch and evidently moosegills.. so for him to take those measures I would say IS a bit rash from a purely pro-EG perspective but having been a player jerked around by leagues before I can tell you I would probably have done the same thing only I wouldn't have used posh british wit to convey mild disappointment. I would have gone full Brooklyn on everyone within ear shot.
I've managed teams. I've argued on behalf of players and I've been messed with by leagues. So everything you've said/done I fully respect/understand. I just hope you too can see the other side where Demuslim is coming from.
Love ya <3
Simply posting the situation on reddit would stir community outrage, there was no need to threaten to forfeit. you are underestimating your power to influence MLG by mobilizing your fanbase.
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On May 05 2013 21:46 Tayar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 16:16 iNcontroL wrote:
Hmm I very much so understand your perspective Genna (speaking specifically to the demu/moosegills portion) but I have to emphasize a part of what you have already said: Players have no power here.
Demuslim is dragged into a MLG instigated debacle at a point in time where he is yet again 1 map away from qualification for a meaningful WCS league and he is told he may have to pretend that series never happened and wait even more for an opponent. What options does Demuslim have? You say leagues and players have to work together but where is the unity in this? League says "sorry we messed up and as a consolation to you we offer nothing but our apology.. on the bright side you can play more starcraft!" Demuslim offers back, what? His only power is to protest by withdrawal. If he says "I will file a complaint!" That will get him nothing. If he drops himself it creates a public stir that DOES get results.
Demuslim is capable of beating miya, sasquatch and evidently moosegills.. so for him to take those measures I would say IS a bit rash from a purely pro-EG perspective but having been a player jerked around by leagues before I can tell you I would probably have done the same thing only I wouldn't have used posh british wit to convey mild disappointment. I would have gone full Brooklyn on everyone within ear shot.
I've managed teams. I've argued on behalf of players and I've been messed with by leagues. So everything you've said/done I fully respect/understand. I just hope you too can see the other side where Demuslim is coming from.
Love ya <3 Simply posting the situation on reddit would stir community outrage, there was no need to threaten to forfeit. you are underestimating your power to influence MLG by mobilizing your fanbase.
I'm confused how that would help Demuslim. He would still have to play extra series because of an MLG screw up and if he was eliminated and then posted on reddit maybe people would be outraged, but at that point it would be too late to do anything. This was what happened when a hacker eliminated several people in a WCS qualifier, chinese players were treated unfairly and Demuslim was not invited to WCS NA. Plenty of outrage in all those situations, but the outrage was too late to help the people who were fucked over. Demuslim could have threatened about posting on Reddit, but how would that be better than threatening to withdraw?
Yes it was sad for Miya and ridiculous that a major organization like MLG can continue to fuck up in such terrible ways. However it is not Demuslim's job to defend Miya from MLG's incompetence, he is not forced to say "ok fuck me over a little so you don't have to fuck over Miya completely", he is completely within his rights to say "no, I don't want to be fucked over, how about that? If you try I will leave and not just stand idly by.".
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Genna for president of SC2 eSports! \m/
Seriously, mad props. Much respect.
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I'm a big Benji fan but I think DeMusliM acted like a kid by saying he would forfeit his match if Miya got a second chance..... what kind of person forfeits a game just because of this?
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What kind of person condems someone to something when he himself has never been in that situation. It's retarted too even think you know how he should've reacted.
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If DeMuslim had threatened to forfeit being UP 1-0 against Moose I would have thought the ultimatum understandable but a bit cowardly (not very cowardly, just a bit) so it's nice to hear he was down 1-0 at the time.
Here's hoping the problem finally got bad enough that something changes to prevent such miscommunication in the future.
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I never really had any respect for Waxangel to begin with... but for sure he has none now.
I fully sympathize with every player involved.
MLG should write down procedures to follow for when stuff like this happens.
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And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax.
Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team. 
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I wonder how different the situation would have played out had the Axiom players taken part in the WCS KR. Assumedly then even with the time confusion, Miya would have been awake/reachable when the admins/teammates/managers initially started trying to rouse him?
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote:And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax. Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team.
ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this.
Sympathizing with players is one thing, actually taking care of a tournament is another. MLG has fucked up countless times during these qualifiers and what Genna did was really the only way out for the people involved. She, or in this case her and Miya, took a bullet for everyone.
MLG is to blame for this but I also don't think what was said by the players helped a lot. I can sympathize with Demuslim and Moosegills because what happened wasn't their fault. Still, threatening to forfeit doesn't exactly help anyone.
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On May 05 2013 23:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote:And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax. Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team. ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this. Sympathizing with players is one thing, actually taking care of a tournament is another. MLG has fucked up countless times during these qualifiers and what Genna did was really the only way out for the people involved. She, or in this case her and Miya, took a bullet for everyone. MLG is to blame for this but I also don't think what happened helped a lot. I can sympathize with Demuslim and Moosegills because what happened wasn't their fault. Still, threatening to forfeit doesn't exactly help anyone.
I think he was referring to that Wax has privileges which is beyond that of the common TL user, such as the ability to moderate the forums and such.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On May 05 2013 23:32 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 23:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote:And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax. Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team. ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this. Sympathizing with players is one thing, actually taking care of a tournament is another. MLG has fucked up countless times during these qualifiers and what Genna did was really the only way out for the people involved. She, or in this case her and Miya, took a bullet for everyone. MLG is to blame for this but I also don't think what happened helped a lot. I can sympathize with Demuslim and Moosegills because what happened wasn't their fault. Still, threatening to forfeit doesn't exactly help anyone. I think he was referring to that Wax has privileges which is beyond that of the common TL user, such as the ability to moderate the forums and such.
He's not and this isn't the first time he's bunched TL writers together with the team regardless of the actual team manager Bumblebee telling him otherwise. Wax can do as he likes, he just writes for the community forums ffs. Has nothing to do with the team itself.
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On May 05 2013 21:46 Tayar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 16:16 iNcontroL wrote:
Hmm I very much so understand your perspective Genna (speaking specifically to the demu/moosegills portion) but I have to emphasize a part of what you have already said: Players have no power here.
Demuslim is dragged into a MLG instigated debacle at a point in time where he is yet again 1 map away from qualification for a meaningful WCS league and he is told he may have to pretend that series never happened and wait even more for an opponent. What options does Demuslim have? You say leagues and players have to work together but where is the unity in this? League says "sorry we messed up and as a consolation to you we offer nothing but our apology.. on the bright side you can play more starcraft!" Demuslim offers back, what? His only power is to protest by withdrawal. If he says "I will file a complaint!" That will get him nothing. If he drops himself it creates a public stir that DOES get results.
Demuslim is capable of beating miya, sasquatch and evidently moosegills.. so for him to take those measures I would say IS a bit rash from a purely pro-EG perspective but having been a player jerked around by leagues before I can tell you I would probably have done the same thing only I wouldn't have used posh british wit to convey mild disappointment. I would have gone full Brooklyn on everyone within ear shot.
I've managed teams. I've argued on behalf of players and I've been messed with by leagues. So everything you've said/done I fully respect/understand. I just hope you too can see the other side where Demuslim is coming from.
Love ya <3 Simply posting the situation on reddit would stir community outrage, there was no need to threaten to forfeit. you are underestimating your power to influence MLG by mobilizing your fanbase.
Knowing the EG fan base let alone DeMu fans. Yeah, I could definitely see the uproar coming especially when Demu didn't receive an invite to the really big show. I've already read all those comments. Really sucks to be in that guy's shoes. Frigging hell.
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On May 05 2013 23:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote:And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax. Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team. ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this..
R1CH and Wax are TL staff.
They may not be involved with running the Team Team Liquid but they are staff on Team Liquid. Yes I really wish there was simpler terminology to differentiate them but referring to one as TTL and the other as TL isn't very catchy.
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On May 05 2013 23:36 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 23:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote:And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax. Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team. ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this.. R1CH and Wax are TL staff. They may not be involved with running the Team Team Liquid but they are staff on Team Liquid. Yes I really wish there was simpler terminology to differentiate them but referring to one as TTL and the other as TL isn't very catchy.
ya, it sounds to me like Wax is on the TL team as well, even though he might be on a different part of the team.
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On May 05 2013 19:44 ACrow wrote:
Whelp, fucked up situation overall. Now, Axiom, Miya, Demuslim, Moosegill all got damaged in one way or another and while not all of them might have acted the best way they could have, it all comes down to the simple fact: MLG fucked up. Yet again. And again. Big shame on them!
Genna, you acted admirably. You assumed responsibility when you didn't have to, which is a rare character trait to see! Mad props to you.
I agree. It all goes back to a really weakly handled mistake. At this point I'm just hoping it can be avoided in the future.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On May 05 2013 23:36 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 23:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote:And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax. Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team. ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this.. R1CH and Wax are TL staff. They may not be involved with running the Team Team Liquid but they are staff on Team Liquid. Yes I really wish there was simpler terminology to differentiate them but referring to one as TTL and the other as TL isn't very catchy.
On May 02 2013 01:31 Bumblebee wrote:
To everyone wondering, the community website and the team is two different things. We do live under the same tag, but we're not dependant on eachother. You don't see our team's news be frontpaged as normal TLnet news and so forth, we have a seperate website for that called TeamLiquidPro. The same goes for the staff. WaxAngel is not responsible to keep things to himself because the team should do something differently.
That's why.
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On May 05 2013 23:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 23:36 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 05 2013 23:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote:And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax. Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team. ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this.. R1CH and Wax are TL staff. They may not be involved with running the Team Team Liquid but they are staff on Team Liquid. Yes I really wish there was simpler terminology to differentiate them but referring to one as TTL and the other as TL isn't very catchy. Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 01:31 Bumblebee wrote:
To everyone wondering, the community website and the team is two different things. We do live under the same tag, but we're not dependant on eachother. You don't see our team's news be frontpaged as normal TLnet news and so forth, we have a seperate website for that called TeamLiquidPro. The same goes for the staff. WaxAngel is not responsible to keep things to himself because the team should do something differently. That's why.
They are still appointed by TL. No? so they are actually working with TL. Or are they the "in between" team? 
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
The only reason why I brought this up is because he's been hating on TL staff in the HerO vs major thread as well without actually understanding the difference between the community website and the team.
Now, back to the actual discussion. I don't think Wax was wrong. He wasn't very nice about it but he wasn't wrong.
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EPT
