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On May 05 2013 23:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The only reason why I brought this up is because he's been hating on TL staff in the HerO vs major thread as well without actually understanding the difference between the community website and the team.
Now, back to the actual discussion. I don't think Wax was wrong. He wasn't very nice about it but he wasn't wrong.
ahh okay, makes sense.
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None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up.
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On May 06 2013 00:07 Resilient wrote:
None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up.
You can't really expect demuslim's little tournament threat to fly. Speaking of growing up, he really needs to do some maturing. He threw a tantrum because he wanted to qualify for WCS NA after getting a BYE then beating Kawaii and moosegills, which is the opposite of the sportsmanship he's claiming this is about.
Look at this with some intelligent thought rather than as a fan boy. The last thing we need is players to have more control over tournament decisions. Having them decide whether or not to regame is bad enough. MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag. In the grown up world, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
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On May 06 2013 00:30 boxturtle wrote:
MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag.
Whoa. "Scumbag"? Exaggerate much?
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On May 06 2013 00:30 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 00:07 Resilient wrote:
None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up. You can't really expect demuslim's little tournament threat to fly. Speaking of growing up, he really needs to do some maturing. He threw a tantrum because he wanted to qualify for WCS NA after getting a BYE then beating Kawaii and moosegills, which is the opposite of the sportsmanship he's claiming this is about. Look at this with some intelligent thought rather than as a fan boy. The last thing we need is players to have more control over tournament decisions. Having them decide whether or not to regame is bad enough. MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag. In the grown up world, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Standing up for yourself has nothing to do with being unsportsmanlike or a douchebag.
The 2 wrongs here are mlg fuckin up and then trying to screw even more players over.
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On May 06 2013 00:36 KatyBa04 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 00:30 boxturtle wrote:On May 06 2013 00:07 Resilient wrote:
None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up. You can't really expect demuslim's little tournament threat to fly. Speaking of growing up, he really needs to do some maturing. He threw a tantrum because he wanted to qualify for WCS NA after getting a BYE then beating Kawaii and moosegills, which is the opposite of the sportsmanship he's claiming this is about. Look at this with some intelligent thought rather than as a fan boy. The last thing we need is players to have more control over tournament decisions. Having them decide whether or not to regame is bad enough. MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag. In the grown up world, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Standing up for yourself has nothing to do with being unsportsmanlike or a douchebag. The 2 wrongs here are mlg fuckin up and then trying to screw even more players over.
You actually can stand up for yourself without overreacting horribly. Threatening to forfeit the tournament is tantamount to going all in. It is a ridiculous move. All it is is essentially threatening pitchforks from his fan base. He isn't threatening to forfeit so he can show moosegills solidarity.
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On May 05 2013 23:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The only reason why I brought this up is because he's been hating on TL staff in the HerO vs major thread as well without actually understanding the difference between the community website and the team.
Now, back to the actual discussion. I don't think Wax was wrong. He wasn't very nice about it but he wasn't wrong.
When was Wax supposed to be a nice guy? It's always been his style. I guess some people are still learning that about him. He's not the type of guy who will hold your hand.
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On May 05 2013 23:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 23:36 TheButtonmen wrote:On May 05 2013 23:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote:And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax. Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team.  ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this.. R1CH and Wax are TL staff. They may not be involved with running the Team Team Liquid but they are staff on Team Liquid. Yes I really wish there was simpler terminology to differentiate them but referring to one as TTL and the other as TL isn't very catchy. Show nested quote +On May 02 2013 01:31 Bumblebee wrote:
To everyone wondering, the community website and the team is two different things. We do live under the same tag, but we're not dependant on eachother. You don't see our team's news be frontpaged as normal TLnet news and so forth, we have a seperate website for that called TeamLiquidPro. The same goes for the staff. WaxAngel is not responsible to keep things to himself because the team should do something differently. That's why.
There is terminology. There is TLnet and there's TLpro. Team website and twitter is also TeamLiquidPro (http://www.teamliquidpro.com/)
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On May 06 2013 00:41 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 23:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The only reason why I brought this up is because he's been hating on TL staff in the HerO vs major thread as well without actually understanding the difference between the community website and the team.
Now, back to the actual discussion. I don't think Wax was wrong. He wasn't very nice about it but he wasn't wrong. When was Wax supposed to be a nice guy? It's always been his style. I guess some people are still learning that about him. He's not the type of guy who will hold your hand.
Tough style to pull off when you also happen to hold moderation rights, what can I say.
DeMu and Moose are nowhere in the blame for this. They could've been super manner & nice about it, but I don't think a lot of people would have acted differently.
Don't understand the hate, outside of the standard couch-comments from people who've never even been close to a similar situation.
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On May 06 2013 00:36 KatyBa04 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 00:30 boxturtle wrote:On May 06 2013 00:07 Resilient wrote:
None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up. You can't really expect demuslim's little tournament threat to fly. Speaking of growing up, he really needs to do some maturing. He threw a tantrum because he wanted to qualify for WCS NA after getting a BYE then beating Kawaii and moosegills, which is the opposite of the sportsmanship he's claiming this is about. Look at this with some intelligent thought rather than as a fan boy. The last thing we need is players to have more control over tournament decisions. Having them decide whether or not to regame is bad enough. MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag. In the grown up world, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Standing up for yourself has nothing to do with being unsportsmanlike or a douchebag. The 2 wrongs here are mlg fuckin up and then trying to screw even more players over.
Standing up for yourself isn't unsportsmanlike, that's right.
But the way he did was.
I can't, for example, imagine WhithRa act like this.
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On May 06 2013 00:54 n0ise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 00:41 StarStruck wrote:On May 05 2013 23:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The only reason why I brought this up is because he's been hating on TL staff in the HerO vs major thread as well without actually understanding the difference between the community website and the team.
Now, back to the actual discussion. I don't think Wax was wrong. He wasn't very nice about it but he wasn't wrong. When was Wax supposed to be a nice guy? It's always been his style. I guess some people are still learning that about him. He's not the type of guy who will hold your hand. Tough style to pull off when you also happen to hold moderation rights, what can I say. DeMu and Moose are nowhere in the blame for this. They could've been super manner & nice about it, but I don't think a lot of people would have acted differently. Don't understand the hate, outside of the standard couch-comments from people who've never even been close to a similar situation.
We've actually been close to this situation back when we were running around and contacting everyone's sponsors. Did it work? Yeah, we sure fucked our scene up a bit. Was it a good idea? You tell me.
Demuslim could have threatened to forfeit, leave his fans in the dust, and redirect their anger at MLG, as well as ruin a small chunk of their content. That's the scumbag thing to do.
He also could have had his management go handle the situation like the professionals they are paid to be.
Not even IdrA would have pulled something so ridiculous on MLG. Maybe not even stephano.
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On May 06 2013 00:54 Uranyl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 00:36 KatyBa04 wrote:On May 06 2013 00:30 boxturtle wrote:On May 06 2013 00:07 Resilient wrote:
None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up. You can't really expect demuslim's little tournament threat to fly. Speaking of growing up, he really needs to do some maturing. He threw a tantrum because he wanted to qualify for WCS NA after getting a BYE then beating Kawaii and moosegills, which is the opposite of the sportsmanship he's claiming this is about. Look at this with some intelligent thought rather than as a fan boy. The last thing we need is players to have more control over tournament decisions. Having them decide whether or not to regame is bad enough. MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag. In the grown up world, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Standing up for yourself has nothing to do with being unsportsmanlike or a douchebag. The 2 wrongs here are mlg fuckin up and then trying to screw even more players over. Standing up for yourself isn't unsportsmanlike, that's right. But the way he did was. I can't, for example, imagine WhithRa act like this.
Why did DeMusliM have to fight MLG to get them to respect its own rules? This is largely what it's about. MLG was ready to rewrite their own rules to unfuck Miya, while screwing 2-3 more players.
Players really don't have much power over tournaments. Sure, threatening to forfeit is the nuclear option, but it is pretty much the only option other than "I'll whine about this on a forum". The only good thing MLG did is not let DeMusliM's threat affect their decision, even if their decision was wrong. One of the posted log clearly shows the admin telling DeMusliM that they would respect his decision to forfeit.
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I think that the basis of good team management is standing by your players with integrity. If Genna felt that the best decision for the tournament was to let Miya go to the losers bracket then that is something everyone should respect. Likewise I am sure that she would fight really hard for her player if she felt a bad decision was affecting them negatively. Carrying yourself in such a manner will allow organizations to take you more serious when you come and ask to be heard. The way Liquid is ran is if you have a case; fight for it. If you don't; don't. Personally I do think Genna had a case for the winners bracket spot being the best solution for the tournament, however that is just a difference in opinion. I do agree with her philosophy, and try to follow it myself as well.
I can't help but think there could have been a better result than this. There are no strict guidelines for a situation like this. MLG rules do not reflect the fact that they themselves provided the wrong starting time. Every choice you make will hurt people in one way or another. In that sense there is no right and wrong and every view on the situation should be treated with respect. The way I see the bracket is that placing Miya back into winners takes DeMusliM and Moosegills from a positive situation to a neutral one (with the added note that DeMusliM being up one game affects him negatively if he was to be put back at 0-0), whereas putting Miya in the losers takes him from neutral to negative. With all of that in mind I think MLG's original ruling was a fair decision.
Whenever there are decisions without any sort of guidelines there are also other variables that you can look at to use. For example what if Miya had been put into the winners bracket, and if he had beaten Moosegills he gets a 0-1 disadvantage against DeMusliM, who was already up 1-0 in the winners final. Or you can put Miya in the losers bracket but offer to let him play in an MLG hosted showmatch for $500. No decision you make here will ever be completely balanced. These other variables can be used to pull a (necessary) imbalanced decision more towards a neutral result for everyone.
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On May 06 2013 01:04 Thrax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 00:54 Uranyl wrote:On May 06 2013 00:36 KatyBa04 wrote:On May 06 2013 00:30 boxturtle wrote:On May 06 2013 00:07 Resilient wrote:
None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up. You can't really expect demuslim's little tournament threat to fly. Speaking of growing up, he really needs to do some maturing. He threw a tantrum because he wanted to qualify for WCS NA after getting a BYE then beating Kawaii and moosegills, which is the opposite of the sportsmanship he's claiming this is about. Look at this with some intelligent thought rather than as a fan boy. The last thing we need is players to have more control over tournament decisions. Having them decide whether or not to regame is bad enough. MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag. In the grown up world, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Standing up for yourself has nothing to do with being unsportsmanlike or a douchebag. The 2 wrongs here are mlg fuckin up and then trying to screw even more players over. Standing up for yourself isn't unsportsmanlike, that's right. But the way he did was. I can't, for example, imagine WhithRa act like this. Why did DeMusliM have to fight MLG to get them to respect its own rules? This is largely what it's about. MLG was ready to rewrite their own rules to unfuck Miya, while screwing 2-3 more players. Players really don't have much power over tournaments. Sure, threatening to forfeit is the nuclear option, but it is pretty much the only option other than "I'll whine about this on a forum". The only good thing MLG did is not let DeMusliM's threat affect their decision, even if their decision was wrong. One of the posted log clearly shows the admin telling DeMusliM that they would respect his decision to forfeit.
i accept that demuslims only power in the situation is to threaten to forfeit completely but its also not a tenable situation to allow players to act like that, whether its teams or leagues refusing to accept it. if the ruling is swayed by the popularity of a player we arent really getting anywhere. so maybe demuslim didnt have any other option, but it feels like the moment he thought things were going to shit he instantly goes crazy. he could be a lot more patient with the situation, rather than coming across as a bit of a dick.
more importantly though, and something it think people arent talking enough about, is that once again the moment the veil is lifted on the inside workings on esports, it turns out the people running events are shockingly bad. according to genna's statement its common practice for start times to just be complete bullshit, anything is possible and you need to chase down admins to get up to date info. so mlg have been running for 5+ years and still cant schedule an event? how many other leagues play so loosely with the idea of 'rules' and 'doing your job'?
from what im hearing/reading everyone is getting caught up on did mlg/axiom/demuslim do the right thing and no one is talking about what we can do to stop this happening again. it was only a few months ago that MLG let a known hacker play in an event, no one at the time even wanted to entertain a conversation about MLGs failure to follow the scene closely enough to know who hacks. then we get to the WCS qualifier and we have MLG again failing to show that they learnt their lesson.
i dont care if this admin got fired, i dont really care that much if 1 event is ruined/damaged. what seems to be the case though, and not just with MLG in particular, is that no one is taking steps to improve the situation long term, people only care about short term PR bandages.
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On May 06 2013 01:28 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 01:04 Thrax wrote:On May 06 2013 00:54 Uranyl wrote:On May 06 2013 00:36 KatyBa04 wrote:On May 06 2013 00:30 boxturtle wrote:On May 06 2013 00:07 Resilient wrote:
None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up. You can't really expect demuslim's little tournament threat to fly. Speaking of growing up, he really needs to do some maturing. He threw a tantrum because he wanted to qualify for WCS NA after getting a BYE then beating Kawaii and moosegills, which is the opposite of the sportsmanship he's claiming this is about. Look at this with some intelligent thought rather than as a fan boy. The last thing we need is players to have more control over tournament decisions. Having them decide whether or not to regame is bad enough. MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag. In the grown up world, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Standing up for yourself has nothing to do with being unsportsmanlike or a douchebag. The 2 wrongs here are mlg fuckin up and then trying to screw even more players over. Standing up for yourself isn't unsportsmanlike, that's right. But the way he did was. I can't, for example, imagine WhithRa act like this. Why did DeMusliM have to fight MLG to get them to respect its own rules? This is largely what it's about. MLG was ready to rewrite their own rules to unfuck Miya, while screwing 2-3 more players. Players really don't have much power over tournaments. Sure, threatening to forfeit is the nuclear option, but it is pretty much the only option other than "I'll whine about this on a forum". The only good thing MLG did is not let DeMusliM's threat affect their decision, even if their decision was wrong. One of the posted log clearly shows the admin telling DeMusliM that they would respect his decision to forfeit. i accept that demuslims only power in the situation is to threaten to forfeit completely but its also not a tenable situation to allow players to act like that, whether its teams or leagues refusing to accept it. if the ruling is swayed by the popularity of a player we arent really getting anywhere. so maybe demuslim didnt have any other option, but it feels like the moment he thought things were going to shit he instantly goes crazy. he could be a lot more patient with the situation, rather than coming across as a bit of a dick. more importantly though, and something it think people arent talking enough about, is that once again the moment the veil is lifted on the inside workings on esports, it turns out the people running events are shockingly bad. according to ganna's statement its common practice for start times to just be complete bullshit, anything is possible and you need to chase down admins to get up to date info. so mlg have been running for 5+ years and still cant schedule an event? how many other leagues play so loosely with the idea of 'rules' and 'doing your job'?
from what im hearing/reading everyone is getting caught up on did mlg/axiom/demuslim do the right thing and no one is talking about what we can do to stop this happening again. it was only a few months ago that MLG let a known hacker play in an event, no one at the time even wanted to entertain a conversation about MLGs failure to follow the scene closely enough to know who hacks. then we get to the WCS qualifier and we have MLG again failing to show that they learnt their lesson.
i dont care if this admin got fired, i dont really care that much if 1 event is ruined/damaged. what seems to be the case though, and not just with MLG in particular, is that no one is taking steps to improve the situation long term, people only care about short term PR bandages.
And now you understand why some people were concerned over MLG having the NA qualifier, they are known to fuck things up.
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I would like to add something here. Firing somebody because something went wrong is a nice symbolic jesture to the haters, but really bad in the long run. Firing someone doesnt solve anything. Learn from it, chance certain communication policies etc... but not fire peeps because they have tried there best. Feels wrong.
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Guys sorry for my bad english understanding but I don't understand what would have happened to sasq if miya could play his in the winner bracket
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On May 06 2013 00:41 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 23:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The only reason why I brought this up is because he's been hating on TL staff in the HerO vs major thread as well without actually understanding the difference between the community website and the team.
Now, back to the actual discussion. I don't think Wax was wrong. He wasn't very nice about it but he wasn't wrong. When was Wax supposed to be a nice guy? It's always been his style. I guess some people are still learning that about him. He's not the type of guy who will hold your hand.
Glad someone pointed this out.
Respect Genna & Axiom.
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On May 06 2013 01:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
whereas putting Miya in the losers takes him from neutral to negative.
I can imagine, if you have to play after 3,5h of sleep without any preperation allready takes it from neutral to negative.
Not to speak of a, maybe long, day with GSTL before.
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The most ridiculous part of this entire thing is that MLG was willing to put Miya back into the winner's bracket. That makes absolutely no sense. If he was a random no-name scrub they would never have considered doing that.
Ultimately the fault lies with Miya. Admin's are people. They make mistakes. If you rely entirely on them then you're going to be misled every now and then. If the information was easily accessible (which it was) then there's no reason the player shouldn't know exactly what time to show up. Language barrier does not excuse the player of his responsibility.
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EPT
