On May 1st, we received an email from Jason Nye, League Operations at MLG giving us a start time for WCS America Invite-Only Challenger League Qualifier of 2pm EDT. As our guys were coming off of their GSTL win vs Prime last night, they went to bed around 10:30pm. Right before going to bed, Miya messaged the MLG admin that we typically speak with during qualifying events.
Now while I have a screenshot of this conversation, because of the personal information included in it, I will simply transcribe....
10:22pm KST Miya : please tell me when my game? wcs america 10:22pm KST Admin : Challenger? 10:23pm KST Miya : i'm wcs america code A 10:23pm KST Admin : ahh kk one sec Monday, May 6, 2013 at 4:30AM KST 10:23pm KST Miya : oh ok thx!! 10:33pm KST Miya : good night! 02:33am KST Admin : Hey, I wanted to correct a mistake I made, Its sunday may 5th at 4:30KST, not monday (Miya is already asleep, and the event is 2 hours away...)
As we have received emails from MLG recently about rescheduled matches for Premier League, changes in qualifier dates, etc., we were relying on the most up to date information from an MLG representative. With my focus being divded by SHOUTcraft America and other personal family matters, I did not question this change. I should have, but hindsight is 20/20 and so on.
At 3:30pm EDT I am contacted by an MLG Admin to inquire where Miya is. Confused, I asked why and he tells me that Miya's match is already delayed by 40 minutes or so due to other scheduling matters. I take that 40mins as a blessing and begin trying everything I can to get in touch with Miya. He's not online on Skype, doesn't respond to SMS, calling his cell, calling CranK's cell... With the help of Olivia ringing every player in the house and waking them all up, we reach Miya to let him know what has happened. By the time Miya is at his computer, it is 4:40pm EDT. I already knew by that point that it was very likely that Miya's opponent had been given a WO, and rightfully so under MLG rules. At 4:45pm EDT, I am informed by an admin that Miya is now in Losers Bracket Round 2 vs Sasquatch.
During all of this, I am talking to the admin to let him know I understand why Miya was not present for his match. I forward him a copy of the screenshot conversation. He was the admin who provided the incorrect information and his response was an apology. If this were some rinky dink show match with a $50 prize perhaps I could understand. An apology, however, is not going to fix the fact that Miya might now not qualify for Challenger, and thus might not have a chance to move up to Premier for the subsequent season. Burying my frustration, I write up a complaint with accompanying screen shots and send those to MLG. Trying to make the best out of what has happened, I try to find Miya's opponents and matches in the lower bracket.
6:05pm EDT Miya pastes this to me in Skype because he does not understand what is going on. He is just trying to find out who he is playing in the LB and this situation comes out of nowhere....
[coL] Sasquatch: i am very confused Zorgon: wait pls [EG] DeMusliMRC: Miya got walkovered earlier - because he didn't turn up, but they're talking about putting him back in the winners bracket, half way through mine and moosegills bo3 After moosegills waited for 2 hours for Miya [LaRe] Wiggin: Ok, so, here is the situation we have. Miya was incorrectly forfeited earlier due to an admin telling him the wrong time, causing a few players to play matches incorrectly. Obviously this is a situation noone wants, but what we believe the fairest way pos possible to deal with this iis to let Miya play the match he was forfeited from in W2 against Moosegills. [FXO] Moosegills: you think thats the fairest possible way he had no way to know when he should be up? [coL] Sasquatch: miya didn't get an email? [EG] DeMusliMRC: Sorry If that happens I forfeit You're choice Your* [FXO] Moosegills: its a matter of personal responsibility theres no way that you would do this if it was just some random player [LaRe] Wiggin: The admin error was telling him the incorrect time, that's the issue. [FXO] Moosegills: fire the admin then [coL] Sasquatch: miya didn't get an email from jason nye? @_@ 나의 메시지: I do not speak English well enough to explain to you in English. google trans;; 마지막 메시지 오전 7:00 [FXO] Moosegills: this is totally unacceptable that you think this is even an option [EG] DeMusliMRC: My problem is that, I didn't receive an email or time either, but I turned up correctly, Have been playing my matches over the course of the last 4 hours / waiting most of the time As have everybody else Those who fail to do so, for what ever reason Should be dealt with equally And he was forfeited, me and Moosegills are 1-1 in our series now After 40 minutes of playing we got msged - that we had to end the series Never mind the initial wait for Miya Meaning my match with moosegills be void entirely, I have to go back to waiting for an hour, moosegills has to then PLAY a player that he already waited for for 2 hours, then started playing a bo3 As he got walkovered Zorgon: We understanded your frustration, please bear with us as we try to deal with this in the fairest way possible. [LaRe] Wiggin: Just sit tight for a moment guys. [coL] Sasquatch: i was also told the wrong time can i play jim again please
Now let me take a minute here and say that while I agree with the players in this chat that the decision was unacceptable, threatening to forfeit does not really hurt the event in the long term. Sure the event organizers will take a bit of flack, but in my own opinion (and I only speak from my pov) it hurts the fans who cheer for you and it hurts the community as a whole. I understand that players in this industry, who have no collective bargaining rights without any centralized governing body to support them, might see this as an appropriate action to take as it really is one of the only powers that they do have. I am not trying to actively call anyone out by making this statement, but I just think that if we really want to bring more legitimacy to competitive eSports, the professional players and the event staff need to work together. Throwing your own chance at WCS Challenger, and potential advancement to Premier for next season is not worth it. When I arrived in the admin chat moments after the above conversation took place, I was surprised to notice that I was the only staff rep from any team in there. Again, I'm not trying to pass judgement, but I do want to state that I am a bit concerned that Ben was about to walk away from WCS for the season and there was no one in that chat, in his corner to fight the decisions being made.
So... it was at this point I unleashed probably the worst BM in my "professional" career. I say that with "s because in my opinion, I showed myself out quite badly today and I really regret using that kind of aggression against admins who were simply trying to resolve a problem that they had contributed to. My reasons for the aggression were 1) We were told the wrong date/time initially. 2) When the admin noted that he had given the wrong information, he made no attempt to contact the team staff. He simply left that message for Miya in hopes he would see it (in his sleep I guess). 3) This sudden attempt to resolve the issue by punishing innocent players was obviously a result of my complaint, yet I was never contacted. I never wanted Miya moved back up to the WB, I only wanted to file a complaint so that we might avoid these kinds of incidents in the future.
The situation as it stood at that time was that they wanted to cancel Demuslim vs Moosegills, take the WO away from Moosegills, render Sasquatch's loss to Miya in LB as a "casualty of war" with no resolve, and drag out the WB for all of the players involved. Well, I wasn't having it. I told them to leave Miya in the LB and let Moosegills vs Demuslim continue in the WB. Then, I went off to speak with the MLG Commissioner and MLG Adam. They of course thought I was crazy, and I don't blame them. They couldn't understand my reasoning and, from all of the reddit posts I've read since this incident happened, much of the community can't understand it either.
As a team owner, I see it as my job to take responsibility for the mistakes of my players, staff and myself. We might have been given the wrong information from an MLG official, but that does not excuse us entirely from any liability. Had I not been overly occupied with organizing SHOUTcraft America or dealing with recent family matters, I would have known that the qualifiers were only one day, and not two days. I would've been able to see from the bracket that the time Miya was given wasn't legitimate. Miya also has a responsibility to know his own match schedule days in advance and to prepare accordingly. If he had been focused on defeating his opponents, he would have seen the bracket which would have given him indication that the time he was given was incorrect.
I am very proud of what our team has been able to accomplish in less than a year. We are still new in my mind, and we have made mistakes and will surely make more. While many of you might see what I did as throwing one of my players under a bus, neither I, nor Miya see it as such. Seeing the admins try to wrong three players to right one was painful. Knowing what kind of pitchforks would lay in front of everyone involved in this matter, I did what I thought to be best for everyone. Sasquatch did not suffer elimination without cause, Moosegills kept his WO, Demuslim got to continue his series to win his spot for Challenger and (assuming most of the final slot matches would be cast on stream) the community would not be cheated by having players forfeit. It has appeared that there has been a seeker missile with Demuslim's name on it for the past month with regard to WCS, and even though I know he probably would not do the same if the tables were reversed, I like to think that I made the right call.
So what happens now? After being eliminated by Top, Miya will not be competing in WCS Challenger, but will instead devote his full attention to training for our upcoming GSTL matches. I will be addressing the MLG Online Team on Monday with suggestions on how they might improve communications with players and teams before, after and during events. Goodness knows if I had the time and support, I'd be breaking ground on some sort of coalition to improve relations between events and players/teams. Players like to complain a lot about teams and events just as events like to complain a lot about players and teams. Instead of continuing this fractured relationship, we are the ones who need to be making the moves to advance this scene. The community can only do so much on it's own. Without the players, there is no event. Without events, what we have right now will wither and eventually die. Make good choices, even if they aren't always the easy ones.
Genna, I'm very impressed by how you handled this. You could have probably insisted Miya's WB walkover be reversed and let him take the easier road to try to qualify, but instead you argued for the best resolution to be fair to the rest of his bracket.
Although it's sad you guys got screwed, you were being the adult here. The people threatening to forfeit in protest were being a bit silly, but you had the right idea, even if it ultimately lost Miya his Challenger spot.
Not sure why admins are trying to give match times in KST instead of putting it all in local time like EST because it's WCS America and letting others convert it for themselves.
Best decision you could have made Gen, considering the circumstances. I applaud you and Miya for staying level headed and thinking with your head and not letting the emotions of the moment causing you to make a stupid decison
I think your anger through the situation was well targeted and justified, WCS is still stumbling over itself, but your actions and decisions are inspiring to see. Fighting not for what's best for your player but for the whole situation while the players/admins squabbled over it shows the kind overall maturity and further staff needed in case of these sort of situations. Really well done, and I hope MLG aren't just satisfied with sacking one admin, but also how to improve and prevent these sort of things completely.
Anyway, Axiom just became even more awesome in my eyes with its already amazing pool of talent in its players and evidently its managers and I can't wait for SHOUTcraft!
u are a trully lady genna! say that, the MLG is a MESS, but i agree with you, if miya pay enough attention he would know which time his match are gonna be played, everyone even the spectators knows which time the qualifiers gonna start.
I still think you should have fought for your player more, rather than give up. Unless the player is in the wrong, a team should always go to bat for their player. I don't believe demu and moose were getting screwed over. They would have just played the bracket like it should have been played. Instead they took the easy way out and let miya go out on a technicality. Demuslim must really hate mlg at the moment cause he was the guy who gave scarlet a regame for forgetting her spawning pool before. Today he is the person screwing miya over on a technicality.
Nothing but respect for how you handled this situation, hopefully this is a one-time incident and things like this can be avoided in the future with better communication -_-
On May 05 2013 14:50 Canucklehead wrote: I still think you should have fought for your player more, rather than give up. I don't believe demu and moose were getting screwed over. They would have just played the bracket like it should have been played. Instead they took the easy way out and let miya go out on a technicality. Demu must really hate mlg at the moment cause he was the guy who gave scarlet a regame for forgetting her spawning pool before. Today he is the person screwing miya over on a technicality.
You don't really understand the situation.... Moosegills waited 2+ hours for Miya to get online while admins repeatedly pushed the schedule back and extended the walkover deadline. Finally, they advance him in the bracket (walkover), he and demuslim start playing their series. Miya gets on and plays his losers bracket match versus Sasquatch, winning 2-0 and knocking him out of the tournament. Then, MLG realizes that their admin told Miya the wrong time, and decides to try and undo the losers bracket match between sasquatch and miya, put miya back in the winners bracket a round ago, and undo the 2 games that moosegills and demuslim played (remember, this is after waiting 2+ hours for miya to get on originally).
Genna went out of her way to fight against the MLG admins decision to go "oops we fucked up sry we're just gonna undo the past 3 hours of the tournament." She didn't "give up", if she had, MLG would have put Miya back in winners bracket and Demuslim and Moosegills would have forfeited. To say she "gave up" or that "Demuslim is the person screwing miya over on a technicality" only shows that you didn't understand the majority of Genna's post
On May 05 2013 14:50 Canucklehead wrote: I still think you should have fought for your player more, rather than give up. I don't believe demu and moose were getting screwed over. They would have just played the bracket like it should have been played. Instead they took the easy way out and let miya go out on a technicality. Demu must really hate mlg at the moment cause he was the guy who gave scarlet a regame for forgetting her spawning pool before. Today he is the person screwing miya over on a technicality.
You don't really understand the situation.... Moosegills waited 2+ hours for Miya to get online while admins repeatedly pushed the schedule back and extended the walkover deadline. Finally, they advance him in the bracket (walkover), he and demuslim start playing their series. Miya gets on and plays his losers bracket match versus Sasquatch, winning 2-0 and knocking him out of the tournament. Then, MLG realizes that their admin told Miya the wrong time, and decides to try and undo the losers bracket match between sasquatch and miya, put miya back in the winners bracket a round ago, and undo the 2 games that moosegills and demuslim played (remember, this is after waiting 2+ hours for miya to get on originally).
Genna went out of her way to fight against the MLG admins decision to go "oops we fucked up sry we're just gonna undo the past 3 hours of the tournament." She didn't "give up", if she had, MLG would have put Miya back in winners bracket and Demuslim and Moosegills would have forfeited.
No, I understand the situation. Rules are rules. I'm just saying if I was a player, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, knowing I didn't qualify by earning it the right way, rather than a technicality. I'd rather beat a player fair and square, rather than avoid them on a technicality. It's an issue of sportsmanship and integrity over rules I'm talking about.
On May 05 2013 14:50 Canucklehead wrote: I still think you should have fought for your player more, rather than give up. I don't believe demu and moose were getting screwed over. They would have just played the bracket like it should have been played. Instead they took the easy way out and let miya go out on a technicality. Demu must really hate mlg at the moment cause he was the guy who gave scarlet a regame for forgetting her spawning pool before. Today he is the person screwing miya over on a technicality.
You don't really understand the situation.... Moosegills waited 2+ hours for Miya to get online while admins repeatedly pushed the schedule back and extended the walkover deadline. Finally, they advance him in the bracket (walkover), he and demuslim start playing their series. Miya gets on and plays his losers bracket match versus Sasquatch, winning 2-0 and knocking him out of the tournament. Then, MLG realizes that their admin told Miya the wrong time, and decides to try and undo the losers bracket match between sasquatch and miya, put miya back in the winners bracket a round ago, and undo the 2 games that moosegills and demuslim played (remember, this is after waiting 2+ hours for miya to get on originally).
Genna went out of her way to fight against the MLG admins decision to go "oops we fucked up sry we're just gonna undo the past 3 hours of the tournament." She didn't "give up", if she had, MLG would have put Miya back in winners bracket and Demuslim and Moosegills would have forfeited.
No, I understand the situation. Rules are rules. I'm just saying if I was a player, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, knowing I didn't qualify by earning it the right way, rather than a technicality. I'd rather beat a player fair and square, rather than avoid them on a technicality. It's an issue of sportsmanship and integrity over rules I'm talking about.
Wouldn't it be unsportsman-like to throw your opponent under the bus by letting MLG nullify two games you already played and making your opponent play a previous round he thought he had won simply because his opponent in the previous round had bad luck?
Would you make the same argument if it wasn't a high-level Korean but instead a no-name NA GM? I doubt it.
Plus, doing anything other than what was done would have thrown the whole tournament into chaos.
On May 05 2013 14:50 Canucklehead wrote: I still think you should have fought for your player more, rather than give up. I don't believe demu and moose were getting screwed over. They would have just played the bracket like it should have been played. Instead they took the easy way out and let miya go out on a technicality. Demu must really hate mlg at the moment cause he was the guy who gave scarlet a regame for forgetting her spawning pool before. Today he is the person screwing miya over on a technicality.
You don't really understand the situation.... Moosegills waited 2+ hours for Miya to get online while admins repeatedly pushed the schedule back and extended the walkover deadline. Finally, they advance him in the bracket (walkover), he and demuslim start playing their series. Miya gets on and plays his losers bracket match versus Sasquatch, winning 2-0 and knocking him out of the tournament. Then, MLG realizes that their admin told Miya the wrong time, and decides to try and undo the losers bracket match between sasquatch and miya, put miya back in the winners bracket a round ago, and undo the 2 games that moosegills and demuslim played (remember, this is after waiting 2+ hours for miya to get on originally).
Genna went out of her way to fight against the MLG admins decision to go "oops we fucked up sry we're just gonna undo the past 3 hours of the tournament." She didn't "give up", if she had, MLG would have put Miya back in winners bracket and Demuslim and Moosegills would have forfeited.
No, I understand the situation. Rules are rules. I'm just saying if I was a player, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, knowing I didn't qualify by earning it the right way, rather than a technicality. I'd rather beat a player fair and square, rather than avoid them on a technicality. It's an issue of sportsmanship and integrity over rules I'm talking about.
Ben followed the rules while MLG was trying to rewrite the rules and the tournament results on the fly because of their own mistakes. Genna said "Let's stick to the rules that were agreed to - the written rules". That was the right thing to do. Showing up on time is not a "technicality". It doesn't matter how good you are, if you aren't there for your match, you lose. There are limits to sportsmanship. Ben was wrong to allow Scarlett to regame, and he realized that after the fact. It would have been wrong to allow Miya to be reinserted in the bracket after the walkovers.
Mad props to Genna, I would rate this 10 stars if I could.
Thanks for the thoughts. This is a really horrible situation, because no matter the resolution someone is going to get screwed. I don't think there is any possible solution that leaves all parties satisfied.
In your shoes I don't know that I would have the piece of mind to settle it that way, especially after MLG was ready to let Miya play even after Moosegills and DeMuslim had started their match. That's definitely an unexpected decision so props to you for deciding that was the best course of action.
Genna, while she had the best intentions, threw her own player under the bus to please Demuslim and "saving the tournament". Two things that shouldn't be any of her concern. Let EG fight for Demuslim because that's their responsibility, while yours is to your own player.
Also I find Demuslim and that other guy's behavior unacceptable, they pretty much threw a tantrum and tried to blackmail MLG knowing that the community mob would fall in behind them.
Edit: Should also add that the bigger issue in all of this is MLG's incompetence when it comes to organizing online tournaments, which is very concerning.
I don't quite understand the point of the thread.....are we supposed to be seeing an outrage? What's with airing all this chat and stuff essentially blackmailing players and MLG.
Sometime you are such a perfect woman in esports. I will dream at night about your position, think of you as Miranda in the Dark Knight Rise and hoping that one day, you wont turn into the darkside and nuclear bomb us. Best of luck! Big fan of Axiom . Please move to DotA2 asap.
On May 05 2013 15:36 Eury wrote: Genna, while she had the best intentions, threw her own player under the bus to please Demuslim and "saving the tournament". Two things that shouldn't be any of her concern. Let EG fight for Demuslim because that's their responsibility, while yours is to your own player.
Also I find Demuslim and that other guy's behavior unacceptable, they pretty much threw a tantrum and tried to blackmail MLG knowing that the community mob would fall in behind them.
How dare players blackmail an organization to follow it's own rules!?!?
It is pretty silly for MLG to let Miya back into the WB. Walk overs are walk overs. As much as the circumstances suck, the MLG admins have to keep the event rolling and if someone isn't there then they are W.O'd - it's players responsibility to be there.
You are right, at the end of the day it was Axiom's responsibility to ensure their player was online for the qualifier. I personally received an email for a player from my team and ensured they where awake and online to play (for them it was a 6am start).
By no means am I blaming you, as you said - you've got a lot on! Did MLG contact you or someone from your team with an email outlining the play times etc? This info to team managers needs to be consistant. MLG have had quite a few minor errors with the WCS qualification and really need to address things for season 2 - hopefully they can do this....
gl to Miya, hopefully we can see him crushing nerds in the next WCS season.
EDIT: Also, to everyone attacking Demu etc.. I think its pretty fair for them to be upset - its really really poor form to give someone special treatment to reinstate them after a Walk Over. Especially when they are already into game 3 of the next series. Tournaments need to flow. If they had of put Miya back into WB then the lower bracket would have been 3-4 hours behind. Thats a pretty big deal imo. Need to get things moving.. The real issue is that Axiom management were (perhaps?) not contacted about the play times (other team managers & players were via email) and that the admin gave incorrect information about the qualifier time and didn't seek direct communication with Axiom to correct the error..
What the admins tried to pull I think isn't fair. But when an official tells you a incorrect time that is messed up, especially if they don't try to correct it. One way to resolve the issue is to have WCS NA be NA players only. Thus, don't have language barrier nor time issues.
I believe the burden was placed correctly. On the player himself. As for Ben acting out, I think that shows some immaturity. Throwing a little tantrum and saying "I will just forfeit" is childish. I can understand he was mad but should not of responded that way.
This may bring up the issue of creating a players union. I don't think NA is big enough to create such a union yet but it might be something to look into possibly down the line.
while what ben did may have been childish or unethical, i wouldve done the same thing. Having to stop in the middle of a series and wait for an hour after you've already waited 2? fuck that.
On May 05 2013 15:36 GreyKnight wrote: I don't quite understand the point of the thread.....are we supposed to be seeing an outrage? What's with airing all this chat and stuff essentially blackmailing players and MLG.
As for demu threatening to quit, Genna pointed out that he came out with the "threat" without any EG staff knowing probably. Can they really just do that? they wont get reprimanded?
On May 05 2013 15:42 cabosetv wrote: As for Ben acting out, I think that shows some immaturity. Throwing a little tantrum and saying "I will just forfeit" is childish. I can understand he was mad but should not of responded that way.
I think that is pretty unfair, Demu was protesting the decision and the only power he has in the situation is over himself. So protest by withdrawal is perfectly understandable. The admins were basically punishing demu and moosegils for an admin error. The other guys are there to play their games and for the brackets not to be held up walk overs are part of keeping things moving.
On May 05 2013 15:42 cabosetv wrote: What the admins tried to pull I think isn't fair. But when an official tells you a incorrect time that is messed up, especially if they don't try to correct it. One way to resolve the issue is to have WCS NA be NA players only. Thus, don't have language barrier nor time issues.
I believe the burden was placed correctly. On the player himself. As for Ben acting out, I think that shows some immaturity. Throwing a little tantrum and saying "I will just forfeit" is childish. I can understand he was mad but should not of responded that way.
This may bring up the issue of creating a players union. I don't think NA is big enough to create such a union yet but it might be something to look into possibly down the line.
Nothing childish about Ben's behavior, he had been waiting and playing for 4 hours and was 66% through his match with moosegills. I would have done the exact same thing in his spot. Get your shit together or I'm out.
And in any case EG should have been the ones defending him in that case and that threat should have come from them, involving all their players... aka MLG sit the f down.
On May 05 2013 15:51 ChadMann wrote: I think that is pretty unfair, Demu was protesting the decision and the only power he has in the situation is over himself. So protest by withdrawal is perfectly understandable. The admins were basically punishing demu and moosegils for an admin error. The other guys are there to play their games and for the brackets not to be held up walk overs are part of keeping things moving.
No it was completely unfair I agree. But one way to handle it would of been the same way Incontrol handles trolls. He entertains their argument and makes them look stupid. Ben alluded to the slippery slope by saying, if it was any other player you won't do the same, but he never completely went there.
I think he should of expanded on that view and use their own logic against them.
The problem is, Admins may not care if you quit. Sure they may get fired later, but now your out a spot potentially. The risk is pretty high. If Genna had the opposite view and thought what the admins were doing was fair it could of turned out differently. I just don't see any need for him to go there. Argue logically and if that doesn't work then call in the army.
I can see why MLG wanted to make this decision, I don't think there's a clear cut right or wrong in this case in terms of how they wanted to handle things. In any case, it was an interesting and brave move on your part to do what you did, considering that there's decades of professional athletics telling us that the precedent is support your players at all costs. Your team, your rules, your values.
But demuslim's hostage taking and moosegill's piggybacking is still fucking hilarious
On May 05 2013 16:00 Waxangel wrote: I can see why MLG wanted to make this decision, I don't think there's a clear cut right or wrong in this case in terms of how they wanted to handle things. In any case, it was an interesting and brave move on your part to do what you did, considering that there's decades of professional athletics telling us that the precedent is support your players at all costs. Your team, your rules, your values.
But demuslim's hostage taking and moosegill's piggybacking is still fucking hilarious
On May 05 2013 16:00 Waxangel wrote: I can see why MLG wanted to make this decision, I don't think there's a clear cut right or wrong in this case in terms of how they wanted to handle things. In any case, it was an interesting and brave move on your part to do what you did, considering that there's decades of professional athletics telling us that the precedent is support your players at all costs. Your team, your rules, your values.
But demuslim's hostage taking and moosegill's piggybacking is still fucking hilarious
On May 05 2013 16:00 Waxangel wrote: I can see why MLG wanted to make this decision, I don't think there's a clear cut right or wrong in this case in terms of how they wanted to handle things. In any case, it was an interesting and brave move on your part to do what you did, considering that there's decades of professional athletics telling us that the precedent is support your players at all costs. Your team, your rules, your values.
But demuslim's hostage taking and moosegill's piggybacking is still fucking hilarious
Hmm I very much so understand your perspective Genna (speaking specifically to the demu/moosegills portion) but I have to emphasize a part of what you have already said: Players have no power here.
Demuslim is dragged into a MLG instigated debacle at a point in time where he is yet again 1 map away from qualification for a meaningful WCS league and he is told he may have to pretend that series never happened and wait even more for an opponent. What options does Demuslim have? You say leagues and players have to work together but where is the unity in this? League says "sorry we messed up and as a consolation to you we offer nothing but our apology.. on the bright side you can play more starcraft!" Demuslim offers back, what? His only power is to protest by withdrawal. If he says "I will file a complaint!" That will get him nothing. If he drops himself it creates a public stir that DOES get results.
Demuslim is capable of beating miya, sasquatch and evidently moosegills.. so for him to take those measures I would say IS a bit rash from a purely pro-EG perspective but having been a player jerked around by leagues before I can tell you I would probably have done the same thing only I wouldn't have used posh british wit to convey mild disappointment. I would have gone full Brooklyn on everyone within ear shot.
I've managed teams. I've argued on behalf of players and I've been messed with by leagues. So everything you've said/done I fully respect/understand. I just hope you too can see the other side where Demuslim is coming from.
Hmm, this particular part of the conversation was taken towards the last 20% of the conversation, and definitely makes everything seem more rash than it was.
Without me being able to paste entire logs (as they only show the most recent chat) - I'll try do my best to clarify. The tournament had started at 11:00 am PST. My tournament day actually started around 1pm as we were told to wait to be broadcasted, games went on, the show went on. After my games finished, times getting on for 3pm, I'm msged by moosegills who tells me we're playing, tells me he had a wo after waiting for 2 hours etc. We do our vetos, are told by admin to play - winner gets a spot into Code A. He wins the first game, the 2nd game is roughly 9 minutes into it (At the point in which things tend to happen in tvz) - and moosegills pauses, and is told to quit the series and go play against Miya. Confused, he asks what the problem is, and we hear that miya was misinformed of the time, thus they'd like to rectify the bracket by unwinding their mistake.
[FXO] Moosegills: message You: thanks I'll try sort this out Since yeah, you waiting for multiple hours, and then calling us in the middle of a bo3 is pretty unacceptable [FXO] Moosegills: ya not to be rude but just cuz he's a korean and has a good chance of qualifying they are gonna make up some bull shit thing You: Right I already told them, if they allow him to play now I'm forfeiting. May sound kiddy, but this would be stupid to alter the rules like this. [FXO] Moosegills: ya HOLD ON A SECOND WE ARE SEEING IF WE WANT MIYA IN WINNERS OR DEMUSLIM AND MOOSE TO FF TALKING TO PP HIGHER UP PPL* You: Ok So After this huge debacle We're apparently still in this [FXO] Moosegills: Interesting i dont' know if its offical tho since he told genna to talk to that dude You: Do you mind if we play our match in say 5 minutes or so? I'm just getting incredibly tired and frustrated [FXO] Moosegills: ya if they don't say anything in like 5 min might as well have our match results ready genna disconnected
This conversation spanned over the course of a few hours, and we were told several things from, it's being re-done, it's not being re-done - Hold on, until roughly 4pm. In which I was in the middle of a bo3, 1-0 down, 10 minutes into the 2nd game. I specifically told an admin I believe the nickname was Zorgon to bring everybody together and sort this out - in Which everybody involved was invited to a private channel, sasquatch, Genna, Miya, Moosegills myself and 2 admins.
I've done very silly things in the past, such as giving a regame to Scarlett, I've also been rather silly today and I don't want my behavior today to leave a sour taste in peoples mouths, as without this being too fired at me, I've had things happen to me, and this really should not have been my argument to fight in the first place. I'm in a mental situation, losing a bo3 and my chance at the code A qualifier - along with a decision being made, and I'm forced to either accept it which is unfair to both me and moosegills, especially moosegills at this moment in time or choose to question it and go against it. Luckily with me going against the call (even in the way that I did it) It was brought to Genna's attention, and luckily Genna agreed that the call of MLG to try reinstate Miya into the bracket, reversing matches and eliminating matches entirely would be wrong.
I remember being in a very similar spot regarding a game vs feast on LAN, in which Someone messaged feast exactly what I was doing in game, and the admins paused the game and asked me what I wanted to do in that situation. Regame or go - So I had the choice to pro-long the situation, and waste a lot of peoples time or to go ahead with a disadvantage. Players should not go through a lot of the things they do in tournaments like this, and more often than not problems tend to arise in these qualifiers, more so than else where.
So I apologize for how rash my actions sounded. I was simply a little shocked by the fact they tried to do this in the first place.
What I don't understand is how that admin failed to raise any flags... did he/she really think that just sending a message 2 hours before event solved the problem? : /
As for DeMuslim talking about quitting the tournament... I see it as more of instant reflex in a setting that was not really public, hence not a public declaration... Not the perfect reaction, but definitely understandable as that is his only real power other than to get EG's backing... speaking of which, where were the EG, FXO and coL management during all this? If I understand the transcription correctly, all this took over an hour at least, so certainly every teamed players had a chance to contact their managers? I can imagine the public poopstorm that would have crapped all over this tournament if Genna didn't choose to stand behind DeMuslim, Sasquatch and Moose (which is something that I assume good number of people thought would be the normal course of action; to stand behind your own players no matter what). Perhaps EG, FXO and coL management would have stepped in if things went down that road.
MLG is just a terrible organisation. They should stick with what they can do, get venture capital in and let NASL run all the tournaments they want to have.
On May 05 2013 16:00 Waxangel wrote: I can see why MLG wanted to make this decision, I don't think there's a clear cut right or wrong in this case in terms of how they wanted to handle things. In any case, it was an interesting and brave move on your part to do what you did, considering that there's decades of professional athletics telling us that the precedent is support your players at all costs. Your team, your rules, your values.
But demuslim's hostage taking and moosegill's piggybacking is still fucking hilarious
You talk to me like I'm a 8 year old. Can't I have an opinion too???
Imagine this
You are trying to be an up and coming player while still attending college. You do better than expected in premier qualifier beating quanticenter and end up being invited for the invite only qualifier. Win your first bo3 and then have to play Miya next. You ask admins to try to find him. You tweet at him. The walkover time for winners round 2 gets delayed twice. You receive the walkover. Now you are 1-1 vs Demuslim. A player that you know is better than you and you are 1 game from getting into NA Premier league which would be a HUGE FUCKING DEAL to you considering there is about nothing left for the NA scene for said "up and comers"
Put yourself in my situation? You wouldn't to just quit after what they were gonna do.
On May 05 2013 16:00 Waxangel wrote: I can see why MLG wanted to make this decision, I don't think there's a clear cut right or wrong in this case in terms of how they wanted to handle things. In any case, it was an interesting and brave move on your part to do what you did, considering that there's decades of professional athletics telling us that the precedent is support your players at all costs. Your team, your rules, your values.
But demuslim's hostage taking and moosegill's piggybacking is still fucking hilarious
You talk to me like I'm a 8 year old. Can't I have an opinion too???
Imagine this
You are trying to be an up and coming player while still attending college. You do better than expected in premier qualifier beating quanticenter and end up being invited for the invite only qualifier. Win your first bo3 and then have to play Miya next. You ask admins to try to find him. You tweet at him. The walkover time for winners round 2 gets delayed twice. You receive the walkover. Now you are 1-1 vs Demuslim. A player that you know is better than you and you are 1 game from getting into NA Premier league which would be a HUGE FUCKING DEAL to you considering there is about nothing left for the NA scene for said "up and comers"
Put yourself in my situation? You wouldn't to just quit after what they were gonna do.
No need to be a douche and randomly insult me.
your situation is sympathetic
but in the end, you got bailed out by genna
demuslim's threats, and your accusations towards MLG of being biased, didn't help anyone
more unnecessary esports drama incoming... collectively many people were at fault and this lead to a very awkward situation
i don't see why people have to create more drama now in this thread. otherwise things are going to be ugly. let's just respect the decision of genna right now and calm down
On May 05 2013 16:00 Waxangel wrote: I can see why MLG wanted to make this decision, I don't think there's a clear cut right or wrong in this case in terms of how they wanted to handle things. In any case, it was an interesting and brave move on your part to do what you did, considering that there's decades of professional athletics telling us that the precedent is support your players at all costs. Your team, your rules, your values.
But demuslim's hostage taking and moosegill's piggybacking is still fucking hilarious
You talk to me like I'm a 8 year old. Can't I have an opinion too???
Imagine this
You are trying to be an up and coming player while still attending college. You do better than expected in premier qualifier beating quanticenter and end up being invited for the invite only qualifier. Win your first bo3 and then have to play Miya next. You ask admins to try to find him. You tweet at him. The walkover time for winners round 2 gets delayed twice. You receive the walkover. Now you are 1-1 vs Demuslim. A player that you know is better than you and you are 1 game from getting into NA Premier league which would be a HUGE FUCKING DEAL to you considering there is about nothing left for the NA scene for said "up and comers"
Put yourself in my situation? You wouldn't to just quit after what they were gonna do.
No need to be a douche and randomly insult me.
your situation is sympathetic
but in the end, you got bailed out by genna
demuslim's threats, and your accusations towards MLG of being biased, didn't help anyone
So because Genne has integrity moose and demuslim attempting to stand up for themselves in the only way that players can is "fucking hilarious" ?
Edit: Actually, nevermind, you've clearly made up your mind and have your biases and I've made up my mind and have my biases.
On May 05 2013 16:00 Waxangel wrote: I can see why MLG wanted to make this decision, I don't think there's a clear cut right or wrong in this case in terms of how they wanted to handle things. In any case, it was an interesting and brave move on your part to do what you did, considering that there's decades of professional athletics telling us that the precedent is support your players at all costs. Your team, your rules, your values.
But demuslim's hostage taking and moosegill's piggybacking is still fucking hilarious
You talk to me like I'm a 8 year old. Can't I have an opinion too???
Imagine this
You are trying to be an up and coming player while still attending college. You do better than expected in premier qualifier beating quanticenter and end up being invited for the invite only qualifier. Win your first bo3 and then have to play Miya next. You ask admins to try to find him. You tweet at him. The walkover time for winners round 2 gets delayed twice. You receive the walkover. Now you are 1-1 vs Demuslim. A player that you know is better than you and you are 1 game from getting into NA Premier league which would be a HUGE FUCKING DEAL to you considering there is about nothing left for the NA scene for said "up and comers"
Put yourself in my situation? You wouldn't to just quit after what they were gonna do.
No need to be a douche and randomly insult me.
your situation is sympathetic
but in the end, you got bailed out by genna
demuslim's threats, and your accusations towards MLG of being biased, didn't help anyone
You act as if I'm supposed to just let what they wanted to do happen with no opposing opinion in the situation I dealt. And then tweeting at me saying I'm "fucking lucky I had demuslim to ride on" and saying on here "moosegills piggybacking is still fucking hilarious" You are literally just a douchebag.
1. It was indeed Miya's personal responsibility to know his/her match schedule ahead of time. The fact that Miya's team was aware of the schedule on May 1st, yet Miya was asking about it the day before the match, leaves some room for improvement on his/her team. Miya even asking two days before the match could have prevented this from happening. Miya and his team could've prevented this incident between May 1st to May 4th.
2. It's obvious that the MLG admin made a mistake and it's a common human mistake that happens to other organizations and events. However, what cannot be looked over is the passiveness of this admin to rectify his error. Sending a correction by chat message 2 hours before the actual event and with no response back from Miya should've raised a red flag on MLG's part. Furthermore, that MLG admin should have immediately notified his or her supervisor in order to consider this into their decision of whether or not to give Miya's first opponent a win over. This admin could've prevented this incident on May 5th.
On May 05 2013 16:00 Waxangel wrote: I can see why MLG wanted to make this decision, I don't think there's a clear cut right or wrong in this case in terms of how they wanted to handle things. In any case, it was an interesting and brave move on your part to do what you did, considering that there's decades of professional athletics telling us that the precedent is support your players at all costs. Your team, your rules, your values.
But demuslim's hostage taking and moosegill's piggybacking is still fucking hilarious
You talk to me like I'm a 8 year old. Can't I have an opinion too???
Imagine this
You are trying to be an up and coming player while still attending college. You do better than expected in premier qualifier beating quanticenter and end up being invited for the invite only qualifier. Win your first bo3 and then have to play Miya next. You ask admins to try to find him. You tweet at him. The walkover time for winners round 2 gets delayed twice. You receive the walkover. Now you are 1-1 vs Demuslim. A player that you know is better than you and you are 1 game from getting into NA Premier league which would be a HUGE FUCKING DEAL to you considering there is about nothing left for the NA scene for said "up and comers"
Put yourself in my situation? You wouldn't to just quit after what they were gonna do.
No need to be a douche and randomly insult me.
your situation is sympathetic
but in the end, you got bailed out by genna
demuslim's threats, and your accusations towards MLG of being biased, didn't help anyone
You act as if I'm supposed to just let what they wanted to do happen with no opposing opinion in the situation I dealt. And then tweeting at me saying I'm "fucking lucky I had demuslim to ride on" and saying on here "moosegills piggybacking is still fucking hilarious" You are literally just a douchebag.
I imagine there are better ways of resolving an issue than immediately deciding that a tournament is biased against you (as your chats with demuslim have shown) and then accusing the tournament organizers of said bias.
On May 05 2013 17:08 BirdKiller wrote: 2 points coming off from reading this:
1. It was indeed Miya's personal responsibility to know his/her match schedule ahead of time. The fact that Miya's team was aware of the schedule on May 1st, yet Miya was asking about it the day before the match, leaves some room for improvement on his/her team. Miya even asking two days before the match could have prevented this from happening. Miya and his team could've prevented this incident between May 1st to May 4th.
Nope, you really can't. WCS has proven up to this point that these dates and times given out via email or by the site cannot be relied upon as being accurate as they frequently change. Information from admins trumps everything. If an admin says Time Y and the email says Time X then you assume Time Y is correct.
It's pretty silly that Genna has to intervene or else MLG admins will screw the bracket up (again) and just make everyone angry. I think that should have been resolved in another way, either letting Miya completely out of the tournament and consolidating him with another shot in a favourable position (are there any more qualifiers?) or putting him in the LB because it's the most simple solution. While it is still unfair it would be consistent and in the future players and teams would be able to predict MLGs hickups and their solutions better. Given the fact that Comm(and Hyun I think? can't find him on Liquipedia :/ ) killed some players during his run just to get disqualified and MLG did not re-allow these players back into the bracket, unfair treatment seems to be business-as-usual.
On a side note: Demuslim threatening to quit should not have influenced the admin's decision. It's his problemand would even be a benefit for the tournament in case Miya would be put into the upper bracket. One less game makes the hickup a little smaller. MLGs reputation is dwindling all the same.
On May 05 2013 15:58 cabosetv wrote: I think he should of expanded on that view and use their own logic against them.
On May 05 2013 17:08 BirdKiller wrote: 2 points coming off from reading this:
1. It was indeed Miya's personal responsibility to know his/her match schedule ahead of time. The fact that Miya's team was aware of the schedule on May 1st, yet Miya was asking about it the day before the match, leaves some room for improvement on his/her team. Miya even asking two days before the match could have prevented this from happening. Miya and his team could've prevented this incident between May 1st to May 4th.
Nope, you really can't. WCS has proven up to this point that these dates and times given out via email or by the site cannot be relied upon as being accurate as they frequently change. Information from admins trumps everything. If an admin says Time Y and the email says Time X then you assume Time Y is correct.
Which in itself is laughable, how hard is it for a tournament to do a simple fucking schedule. Mad props to all and sucks for Miya.
On May 05 2013 16:00 Waxangel wrote: I can see why MLG wanted to make this decision, I don't think there's a clear cut right or wrong in this case in terms of how they wanted to handle things. In any case, it was an interesting and brave move on your part to do what you did, considering that there's decades of professional athletics telling us that the precedent is support your players at all costs. Your team, your rules, your values.
But demuslim's hostage taking and moosegill's piggybacking is still fucking hilarious
You talk to me like I'm a 8 year old. Can't I have an opinion too???
Imagine this
You are trying to be an up and coming player while still attending college. You do better than expected in premier qualifier beating quanticenter and end up being invited for the invite only qualifier. Win your first bo3 and then have to play Miya next. You ask admins to try to find him. You tweet at him. The walkover time for winners round 2 gets delayed twice. You receive the walkover. Now you are 1-1 vs Demuslim. A player that you know is better than you and you are 1 game from getting into NA Premier league which would be a HUGE FUCKING DEAL to you considering there is about nothing left for the NA scene for said "up and comers"
Put yourself in my situation? You wouldn't to just quit after what they were gonna do.
No need to be a douche and randomly insult me.
your situation is sympathetic
but in the end, you got bailed out by genna
demuslim's threats, and your accusations towards MLG of being biased, didn't help anyone
You act as if I'm supposed to just let what they wanted to do happen with no opposing opinion in the situation I dealt. And then tweeting at me saying I'm "fucking lucky I had demuslim to ride on" and saying on here "moosegills piggybacking is still fucking hilarious" You are literally just a douchebag.
I imagine there are better ways of resolving an issue than immediately deciding that a tournament is biased against you (as your chats with demuslim have shown) and then accusing the tournament organizers of said bias.
Yo I imagine there are better ways of disagreeing with my opinion then insulting me, no?
On May 05 2013 15:51 ChadMann wrote: I think that is pretty unfair, Demu was protesting the decision and the only power he has in the situation is over himself. So protest by withdrawal is perfectly understandable. The admins were basically punishing demu and moosegils for an admin error. The other guys are there to play their games and for the brackets not to be held up walk overs are part of keeping things moving.
Ben alluded to the slippery slope by saying, if it was any other player you won't do the same, but he never completely went there.
It actually wasn't Demu that said that.... I agree there may have been other options. But self withdrawal is a legitimate form of protest in what I can only see as pretty unfair treatment.
On May 05 2013 16:00 Waxangel wrote: I can see why MLG wanted to make this decision, I don't think there's a clear cut right or wrong in this case in terms of how they wanted to handle things. In any case, it was an interesting and brave move on your part to do what you did, considering that there's decades of professional athletics telling us that the precedent is support your players at all costs. Your team, your rules, your values.
But demuslim's hostage taking and moosegill's piggybacking is still fucking hilarious
You talk to me like I'm a 8 year old. Can't I have an opinion too???
Imagine this
You are trying to be an up and coming player while still attending college. You do better than expected in premier qualifier beating quanticenter and end up being invited for the invite only qualifier. Win your first bo3 and then have to play Miya next. You ask admins to try to find him. You tweet at him. The walkover time for winners round 2 gets delayed twice. You receive the walkover. Now you are 1-1 vs Demuslim. A player that you know is better than you and you are 1 game from getting into NA Premier league which would be a HUGE FUCKING DEAL to you considering there is about nothing left for the NA scene for said "up and comers"
Put yourself in my situation? You wouldn't to just quit after what they were gonna do.
No need to be a douche and randomly insult me.
your situation is sympathetic
but in the end, you got bailed out by genna
demuslim's threats, and your accusations towards MLG of being biased, didn't help anyone
You act as if I'm supposed to just let what they wanted to do happen with no opposing opinion in the situation I dealt. And then tweeting at me saying I'm "fucking lucky I had demuslim to ride on" and saying on here "moosegills piggybacking is still fucking hilarious" You are literally just a douchebag.
I imagine there are better ways of resolving an issue than immediately deciding that a tournament is biased against you (as your chats with demuslim have shown) and then accusing the tournament organizers of said bias.
Yo I imagine there are better ways of disagreeing with my opinion then insulting me, no?
On May 05 2013 16:16 iNcontroL wrote: [...] having been a player jerked around by leagues before [...]
This is the point I don't really understand, maybe I'm not selfish enough.
No matter in what circumstance, I would try to avoid these situations for other people, so other people do the same. I think, the players, even if they are rivals, should stick together. It's the only way to have a faire treat . I don't have any insights in how big Miyas fault is. But as long as it is in doubt, that it is purely Miyas fault, a Player should try to help.
In this case, as it seems to me, another player was jerked around by a league. And next time, maybe Mixa is in the opposite situation and will behave the same. And the next player will be screwed... As long as nobody starts, it will go on. And at some point everybody is screwed.
On May 05 2013 16:00 Waxangel wrote: I can see why MLG wanted to make this decision, I don't think there's a clear cut right or wrong in this case in terms of how they wanted to handle things. In any case, it was an interesting and brave move on your part to do what you did, considering that there's decades of professional athletics telling us that the precedent is support your players at all costs. Your team, your rules, your values.
But demuslim's hostage taking and moosegill's piggybacking is still fucking hilarious
You talk to me like I'm a 8 year old. Can't I have an opinion too???
Imagine this
You are trying to be an up and coming player while still attending college. You do better than expected in premier qualifier beating quanticenter and end up being invited for the invite only qualifier. Win your first bo3 and then have to play Miya next. You ask admins to try to find him. You tweet at him. The walkover time for winners round 2 gets delayed twice. You receive the walkover. Now you are 1-1 vs Demuslim. A player that you know is better than you and you are 1 game from getting into NA Premier league which would be a HUGE FUCKING DEAL to you considering there is about nothing left for the NA scene for said "up and comers"
Put yourself in my situation? You wouldn't to just quit after what they were gonna do.
No need to be a douche and randomly insult me.
your situation is sympathetic
but in the end, you got bailed out by genna
demuslim's threats, and your accusations towards MLG of being biased, didn't help anyone
You act as if I'm supposed to just let what they wanted to do happen with no opposing opinion in the situation I dealt. And then tweeting at me saying I'm "fucking lucky I had demuslim to ride on" and saying on here "moosegills piggybacking is still fucking hilarious" You are literally just a douchebag.
I imagine there are better ways of resolving an issue than immediately deciding that a tournament is biased against you (as your chats with demuslim have shown) and then accusing the tournament organizers of said bias.
Yo I imagine there are better ways of disagreeing with my opinion then insulting me, no?
I'll give you that
Well, at least you can man up and admit you were kind of a dick Wax
Nothing like a bit of drama. Personally and yes its harsh and even unfair however.. one less non resident in this train wreck of a tournament is a good thing.
The tournament organizer should financially compensate the player(s) they dicked over in these cases. That way the organizer would be the one shouldering responsibility and actually paying for their mistakes instead of making players and/or their teams pay.
I haven't been following the whole WCS thing much, but from what I gathered (also regarding the mess with Chinese players), it might not even be this particular admin's fault either. MLG seems to be shuffling and re-shuffling the brackets and dates a lot, which is a really dodgy way to go about running a competition. The admin that relayed the information to Miya may as well have been caught in the middle of one of those re-shufflings. It may have been a mistake on his part not to double-check the latest schedule, but the root of the problem seems to be higher up in MLG ranks.
Why are people saying this was childish behaviour by Demuslim? The shit MLG pulled on him during this WCS is the stuff that would make people quit the game.
shit happens, the sad part of this is that it seems now the default move for players who feel wronged by a situation is to threaten to leave the tournament and make a reddit drama thread.
It's great that you are a team manager, yet still realise what players from other teams need. Shows you really care about the scene, thanks for this blog!
While I understand Axiom's reasoning for not wanting to mess up the tournament, I strongly disagree with their decision. It's basically a situation where MLG messed up and there's no way to resolve everything without hurting someone. The result, if what I am reading is correct, is that Genna made Miya be the bigger man and take the fall to ensure everyone else is happy. I don't think this is fair at all for Miya. At the end of the day, I know if I was a player, I would expect my manager to look out for my interests and fight for me to the best of their ability, especially if it was a situation where I wasn't at fault for. I mean yes both Miya and Genna should've been more vigilant in keeping track with the tournament dates, BUT it is not their responsibility to fact check the MLG admins.
Historically MLG admins give terrible information. I was once at the open bracket 2 years ago and asked if the matches were finished for the day. This was around 6-7 PM. The admin said yes the rounds are finished for the night and if you aren't currently playing, you don't have any games left for the night.
On May 05 2013 19:10 THF wrote: Wax, I've lost all my respect for you after reading this.
You aren't the only one.
This isn't the first time he's done this either. Just a bit upsetting to me when TeamLiquid staff are so vehemently opposed to supporting up and coming players. Even r1ch acted like this on twitter
@Unijk @DeMusliM @GennaBain Well Genna wouldn't have had to act this way if Demuslim and Moosegills didn't threaten to fuck up the tourney.
[EG] DeMusliMRC: Sorry If that happens I forfeit You're choice Your* ... [EG] DeMusliMRC: My problem is that, I didn't receive an email or time either, but I turned up correctly, Have been playing my matches over the course of the last 4 hours / waiting most of the time As have everybody else Those who fail to do so, for what ever reason Should be dealt with equally And he was forfeited, me and Moosegills are 1-1 in our series now After 40 minutes of playing we got msged - that we had to end the series Never mind the initial wait for Miya Meaning my match with moosegills be void entirely, I have to go back to waiting for an hour, moosegills has to then PLAY a player that he already waited for for 2 hours, then started playing a bo3 As he got walkovered
Even if it's once again because of an MLG complication, not the best sportmanship from Demuslim. Yet he was so happy to brag about his qualification later on twitter while he used this opportunity to dodge a potentially better than him Korean player.
I am glad the SC2 scene has people like Genna and Totalbiscuit who did more in 6 months than most in years. I didn't think they could bring so much to this scene. They are really improving our microcosm with their integrity, ethics and tournaments. Some larger and wealthier structures should take example.
Whelp, fucked up situation overall. Now, Axiom, Miya, Demuslim, Moosegill all got damaged in one way or another and while not all of them might have acted the best way they could have, it all comes down to the simple fact: MLG fucked up. Yet again. And again. Big shame on them!
Genna, you acted admirably. You assumed responsibility when you didn't have to, which is a rare character trait to see! Mad props to you.
On May 05 2013 19:10 THF wrote: Wax, I've lost all my respect for you after reading this.
You aren't the only one.
This isn't the first time he's done this either. Just a bit upsetting to me when TeamLiquid staff are so vehemently opposed to supporting up and coming players. Even r1ch acted like this on twitter
On May 05 2013 19:10 THF wrote: Wax, I've lost all my respect for you after reading this.
You aren't the only one.
This isn't the first time he's done this either. Just a bit upsetting to me when TeamLiquid staff are so vehemently opposed to supporting up and coming players. Even r1ch acted like this on twitter
@Unijk @DeMusliM @GennaBain Well Genna wouldn't have had to act this way if Demuslim and Moosegills didn't threaten to fuck up the tourney.
Supporting up and coming players doesn't mean supporting them in every situation, at any cost. This situation had nothing to do with that particular topic in the first place.
On May 05 2013 19:10 THF wrote: Wax, I've lost all my respect for you after reading this.
You aren't the only one.
This isn't the first time he's done this either. Just a bit upsetting to me when TeamLiquid staff are so vehemently opposed to supporting up and coming players. Even r1ch acted like this on twitter
@Unijk @DeMusliM @GennaBain Well Genna wouldn't have had to act this way if Demuslim and Moosegills didn't threaten to fuck up the tourney.
Who is the "up and coming" player here? Demuslim is quite an established pro in SC2 (and was in WC3). I see no oppositon to an up and coming player here.
On May 05 2013 19:10 THF wrote: Wax, I've lost all my respect for you after reading this.
You aren't the only one.
This isn't the first time he's done this either. Just a bit upsetting to me when TeamLiquid staff are so vehemently opposed to supporting up and coming players. Even r1ch acted like this on twitter
@Unijk @DeMusliM @GennaBain Well Genna wouldn't have had to act this way if Demuslim and Moosegills didn't threaten to fuck up the tourney.
Who is the "up and coming" player here? Demuslim is quite an established pro in SC2 (and was in WC3). I see no oppositon to an up and coming player here.
I think he referred to moose, the other player who also felt like they were getting fucked over by MLG.
I've played in multiple MLG tournaments in the past, mainly in Halo 3 and Reach, and I totally agree that you MUST assume what an admin says is right, and you also MUST leave a player inside the venue at all times because a margin of the time, the scheduled time AND what the admin tells you both will turn out to be wrong. This has only happened at live tournaments for me, but I assume the same happens with tournaments run through gamebattles. As much as it is a players' responsibility to know and arrive at the correct time, the inconsistency of MLG's scheduling is a huge flaw that has been rampant for years. I do not particularly blame Miya for this situation, but it is simply horrible for any player. I also believe Moosegills and DemusliM had a RIGHT to threaten to forfeit, after the way the situation unfolded, as DeMusliM, for one has been backed by his own team as deserving an invite to Premier division, I can't imagine he is entirely happy with MLG's workings right now. Moosegills on the other hand is an up and comer who was possibly 1 game from qualifying for the biggest league he may ever get a chance to play in, and being told he has to go back in time and lose all previous results would totally kill your mindset. The players in this situation had a justified aggression towards the situation, I agree, and would have done what they did in the same situation
I would also like to say that, having been a past competitor, I have a huge amount of respect for MLG, and think that they do the very best they can. In my opinion they are not some greedy money hungry company that is out to destroy esports. They are simply a company led by an esports fanatic (who hates the word esports) that is trying pretty damn hard to make things work.
It's insane how much people are obsessed with "supporting up and coming players". It really doesn't fucking matter whether you're unknown or a multiple GSL champion. It's about what's fair to everybody.
In the end there's nobody to blame except MLG, once again. Get your shit together ffs. This is supposed to be a glorious event to show off SC2 to the world and the amount of fuckups I'm constantly reading about concerning WCS America is far outweighing the positive news.
Demuslim has lost my respect, especially after that completely delusional post on reddit claiming that he did all this for the sake of sportsmanship. It's really sad that he felt like he needed to make a power play like that and it's even worse that he justifies himself and paints himself as the just party.
Moose, while not really at fault for anything, behaves like he thinks he's being persecuted in that chatlog. He also sounds rather belligerent in this thread.
This entire WCS NA thing sucks. Coming from NASL's adroit handling on online material last year to this leaves a stark contrast in mind. I'm unfortunately enjoying watching "foreign" SC2 less this year than last year despite the volume of good matches that are occurring.
I hope NASL is starting up again soon. Before this, I was on the fence about buying another season due to the expansive amount of SC2 content out there, now I'm just waiting to hand them the money I made trading dota2 cosmetics.
I almost feel like contracting a college SC2 club would be cheaper and more effective than MLG's admins after the course of this last month of starcraft.
On May 05 2013 16:16 iNcontroL wrote: Hmm I very much so understand your perspective Genna (speaking specifically to the demu/moosegills portion) but I have to emphasize a part of what you have already said: Players have no power here.
Demuslim is dragged into a MLG instigated debacle at a point in time where he is yet again 1 map away from qualification for a meaningful WCS league and he is told he may have to pretend that series never happened and wait even more for an opponent. What options does Demuslim have? You say leagues and players have to work together but where is the unity in this? League says "sorry we messed up and as a consolation to you we offer nothing but our apology.. on the bright side you can play more starcraft!" Demuslim offers back, what? His only power is to protest by withdrawal. If he says "I will file a complaint!" That will get him nothing. If he drops himself it creates a public stir that DOES get results.
Demuslim is capable of beating miya, sasquatch and evidently moosegills.. so for him to take those measures I would say IS a bit rash from a purely pro-EG perspective but having been a player jerked around by leagues before I can tell you I would probably have done the same thing only I wouldn't have used posh british wit to convey mild disappointment. I would have gone full Brooklyn on everyone within ear shot.
I've managed teams. I've argued on behalf of players and I've been messed with by leagues. So everything you've said/done I fully respect/understand. I just hope you too can see the other side where Demuslim is coming from.
Love ya <3
Simply posting the situation on reddit would stir community outrage, there was no need to threaten to forfeit. you are underestimating your power to influence MLG by mobilizing your fanbase.
On May 05 2013 16:16 iNcontroL wrote: Hmm I very much so understand your perspective Genna (speaking specifically to the demu/moosegills portion) but I have to emphasize a part of what you have already said: Players have no power here.
Demuslim is dragged into a MLG instigated debacle at a point in time where he is yet again 1 map away from qualification for a meaningful WCS league and he is told he may have to pretend that series never happened and wait even more for an opponent. What options does Demuslim have? You say leagues and players have to work together but where is the unity in this? League says "sorry we messed up and as a consolation to you we offer nothing but our apology.. on the bright side you can play more starcraft!" Demuslim offers back, what? His only power is to protest by withdrawal. If he says "I will file a complaint!" That will get him nothing. If he drops himself it creates a public stir that DOES get results.
Demuslim is capable of beating miya, sasquatch and evidently moosegills.. so for him to take those measures I would say IS a bit rash from a purely pro-EG perspective but having been a player jerked around by leagues before I can tell you I would probably have done the same thing only I wouldn't have used posh british wit to convey mild disappointment. I would have gone full Brooklyn on everyone within ear shot.
I've managed teams. I've argued on behalf of players and I've been messed with by leagues. So everything you've said/done I fully respect/understand. I just hope you too can see the other side where Demuslim is coming from.
Love ya <3
Simply posting the situation on reddit would stir community outrage, there was no need to threaten to forfeit. you are underestimating your power to influence MLG by mobilizing your fanbase.
I'm confused how that would help Demuslim. He would still have to play extra series because of an MLG screw up and if he was eliminated and then posted on reddit maybe people would be outraged, but at that point it would be too late to do anything. This was what happened when a hacker eliminated several people in a WCS qualifier, chinese players were treated unfairly and Demuslim was not invited to WCS NA. Plenty of outrage in all those situations, but the outrage was too late to help the people who were fucked over. Demuslim could have threatened about posting on Reddit, but how would that be better than threatening to withdraw?
Yes it was sad for Miya and ridiculous that a major organization like MLG can continue to fuck up in such terrible ways. However it is not Demuslim's job to defend Miya from MLG's incompetence, he is not forced to say "ok fuck me over a little so you don't have to fuck over Miya completely", he is completely within his rights to say "no, I don't want to be fucked over, how about that? If you try I will leave and not just stand idly by.".
I'm a big Benji fan but I think DeMusliM acted like a kid by saying he would forfeit his match if Miya got a second chance..... what kind of person forfeits a game just because of this?
What kind of person condems someone to something when he himself has never been in that situation. It's retarted too even think you know how he should've reacted.
If DeMuslim had threatened to forfeit being UP 1-0 against Moose I would have thought the ultimatum understandable but a bit cowardly (not very cowardly, just a bit) so it's nice to hear he was down 1-0 at the time.
Here's hoping the problem finally got bad enough that something changes to prevent such miscommunication in the future.
And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax.
Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team.
I wonder how different the situation would have played out had the Axiom players taken part in the WCS KR. Assumedly then even with the time confusion, Miya would have been awake/reachable when the admins/teammates/managers initially started trying to rouse him?
On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote: And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax.
Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team.
ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this.
Sympathizing with players is one thing, actually taking care of a tournament is another. MLG has fucked up countless times during these qualifiers and what Genna did was really the only way out for the people involved. She, or in this case her and Miya, took a bullet for everyone. MLG is to blame for this but I also don't think what was said by the players helped a lot. I can sympathize with Demuslim and Moosegills because what happened wasn't their fault. Still, threatening to forfeit doesn't exactly help anyone.
On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote: And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax.
Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team.
ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this.
Sympathizing with players is one thing, actually taking care of a tournament is another. MLG has fucked up countless times during these qualifiers and what Genna did was really the only way out for the people involved. She, or in this case her and Miya, took a bullet for everyone. MLG is to blame for this but I also don't think what happened helped a lot. I can sympathize with Demuslim and Moosegills because what happened wasn't their fault. Still, threatening to forfeit doesn't exactly help anyone.
I think he was referring to that Wax has privileges which is beyond that of the common TL user, such as the ability to moderate the forums and such.
On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote: And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax.
Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team.
ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this.
Sympathizing with players is one thing, actually taking care of a tournament is another. MLG has fucked up countless times during these qualifiers and what Genna did was really the only way out for the people involved. She, or in this case her and Miya, took a bullet for everyone. MLG is to blame for this but I also don't think what happened helped a lot. I can sympathize with Demuslim and Moosegills because what happened wasn't their fault. Still, threatening to forfeit doesn't exactly help anyone.
I think he was referring to that Wax has privileges which is beyond that of the common TL user, such as the ability to moderate the forums and such.
He's not and this isn't the first time he's bunched TL writers together with the team regardless of the actual team manager Bumblebee telling him otherwise. Wax can do as he likes, he just writes for the community forums ffs. Has nothing to do with the team itself.
On May 05 2013 16:16 iNcontroL wrote: Hmm I very much so understand your perspective Genna (speaking specifically to the demu/moosegills portion) but I have to emphasize a part of what you have already said: Players have no power here.
Demuslim is dragged into a MLG instigated debacle at a point in time where he is yet again 1 map away from qualification for a meaningful WCS league and he is told he may have to pretend that series never happened and wait even more for an opponent. What options does Demuslim have? You say leagues and players have to work together but where is the unity in this? League says "sorry we messed up and as a consolation to you we offer nothing but our apology.. on the bright side you can play more starcraft!" Demuslim offers back, what? His only power is to protest by withdrawal. If he says "I will file a complaint!" That will get him nothing. If he drops himself it creates a public stir that DOES get results.
Demuslim is capable of beating miya, sasquatch and evidently moosegills.. so for him to take those measures I would say IS a bit rash from a purely pro-EG perspective but having been a player jerked around by leagues before I can tell you I would probably have done the same thing only I wouldn't have used posh british wit to convey mild disappointment. I would have gone full Brooklyn on everyone within ear shot.
I've managed teams. I've argued on behalf of players and I've been messed with by leagues. So everything you've said/done I fully respect/understand. I just hope you too can see the other side where Demuslim is coming from.
Love ya <3
Simply posting the situation on reddit would stir community outrage, there was no need to threaten to forfeit. you are underestimating your power to influence MLG by mobilizing your fanbase.
Knowing the EG fan base let alone DeMu fans. Yeah, I could definitely see the uproar coming especially when Demu didn't receive an invite to the really big show. I've already read all those comments. Really sucks to be in that guy's shoes. Frigging hell.
On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote: And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax.
Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team.
ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this..
R1CH and Wax are TL staff.
They may not be involved with running the Team Team Liquid but they are staff on Team Liquid. Yes I really wish there was simpler terminology to differentiate them but referring to one as TTL and the other as TL isn't very catchy.
On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote: And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax.
Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team.
ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this..
R1CH and Wax are TL staff.
They may not be involved with running the Team Team Liquid but they are staff on Team Liquid. Yes I really wish there was simpler terminology to differentiate them but referring to one as TTL and the other as TL isn't very catchy.
ya, it sounds to me like Wax is on the TL team as well, even though he might be on a different part of the team.
On May 05 2013 19:44 ACrow wrote: Whelp, fucked up situation overall. Now, Axiom, Miya, Demuslim, Moosegill all got damaged in one way or another and while not all of them might have acted the best way they could have, it all comes down to the simple fact: MLG fucked up. Yet again. And again. Big shame on them!
Genna, you acted admirably. You assumed responsibility when you didn't have to, which is a rare character trait to see! Mad props to you.
I agree. It all goes back to a really weakly handled mistake. At this point I'm just hoping it can be avoided in the future.
On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote: And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax.
Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team.
ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this..
R1CH and Wax are TL staff.
They may not be involved with running the Team Team Liquid but they are staff on Team Liquid. Yes I really wish there was simpler terminology to differentiate them but referring to one as TTL and the other as TL isn't very catchy.
On May 02 2013 01:31 Bumblebee wrote: To everyone wondering, the community website and the team is two different things. We do live under the same tag, but we're not dependant on eachother. You don't see our team's news be frontpaged as normal TLnet news and so forth, we have a seperate website for that called TeamLiquidPro. The same goes for the staff. WaxAngel is not responsible to keep things to himself because the team should do something differently.
On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote: And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax.
Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team.
ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this..
R1CH and Wax are TL staff.
They may not be involved with running the Team Team Liquid but they are staff on Team Liquid. Yes I really wish there was simpler terminology to differentiate them but referring to one as TTL and the other as TL isn't very catchy.
On May 02 2013 01:31 Bumblebee wrote: To everyone wondering, the community website and the team is two different things. We do live under the same tag, but we're not dependant on eachother. You don't see our team's news be frontpaged as normal TLnet news and so forth, we have a seperate website for that called TeamLiquidPro. The same goes for the staff. WaxAngel is not responsible to keep things to himself because the team should do something differently.
That's why.
They are still appointed by TL. No? so they are actually working with TL. Or are they the "in between" team?
The only reason why I brought this up is because he's been hating on TL staff in the HerO vs major thread as well without actually understanding the difference between the community website and the team.
Now, back to the actual discussion. I don't think Wax was wrong. He wasn't very nice about it but he wasn't wrong.
On May 05 2013 23:44 DarkLordOlli wrote: The only reason why I brought this up is because he's been hating on TL staff in the HerO vs major thread as well without actually understanding the difference between the community website and the team.
Now, back to the actual discussion. I don't think Wax was wrong. He wasn't very nice about it but he wasn't wrong.
None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up.
On May 06 2013 00:07 Resilient wrote: None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up.
You can't really expect demuslim's little tournament threat to fly. Speaking of growing up, he really needs to do some maturing. He threw a tantrum because he wanted to qualify for WCS NA after getting a BYE then beating Kawaii and moosegills, which is the opposite of the sportsmanship he's claiming this is about.
Look at this with some intelligent thought rather than as a fan boy. The last thing we need is players to have more control over tournament decisions. Having them decide whether or not to regame is bad enough. MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag. In the grown up world, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
On May 06 2013 00:07 Resilient wrote: None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up.
You can't really expect demuslim's little tournament threat to fly. Speaking of growing up, he really needs to do some maturing. He threw a tantrum because he wanted to qualify for WCS NA after getting a BYE then beating Kawaii and moosegills, which is the opposite of the sportsmanship he's claiming this is about.
Look at this with some intelligent thought rather than as a fan boy. The last thing we need is players to have more control over tournament decisions. Having them decide whether or not to regame is bad enough. MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag. In the grown up world, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Standing up for yourself has nothing to do with being unsportsmanlike or a douchebag.
The 2 wrongs here are mlg fuckin up and then trying to screw even more players over.
On May 06 2013 00:07 Resilient wrote: None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up.
You can't really expect demuslim's little tournament threat to fly. Speaking of growing up, he really needs to do some maturing. He threw a tantrum because he wanted to qualify for WCS NA after getting a BYE then beating Kawaii and moosegills, which is the opposite of the sportsmanship he's claiming this is about.
Look at this with some intelligent thought rather than as a fan boy. The last thing we need is players to have more control over tournament decisions. Having them decide whether or not to regame is bad enough. MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag. In the grown up world, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Standing up for yourself has nothing to do with being unsportsmanlike or a douchebag.
The 2 wrongs here are mlg fuckin up and then trying to screw even more players over.
You actually can stand up for yourself without overreacting horribly. Threatening to forfeit the tournament is tantamount to going all in. It is a ridiculous move. All it is is essentially threatening pitchforks from his fan base. He isn't threatening to forfeit so he can show moosegills solidarity.
On May 05 2013 23:44 DarkLordOlli wrote: The only reason why I brought this up is because he's been hating on TL staff in the HerO vs major thread as well without actually understanding the difference between the community website and the team.
Now, back to the actual discussion. I don't think Wax was wrong. He wasn't very nice about it but he wasn't wrong.
When was Wax supposed to be a nice guy? It's always been his style. I guess some people are still learning that about him. He's not the type of guy who will hold your hand.
On May 05 2013 23:23 TheButtonmen wrote: And once again TL staff manage to be complete dicks to everyone not on their team, class act as always Wax.
Glad to hear your side of it and best wishes for the GSTL. If I can't see Miya tear it up in WCS at least start him a few times in the GSTL so I can see a few of his games before Ryung or Crank all-kill the other team.
ffs, Waxangel has nothing to do with the TL team. He's a writer on the TeamLiquid forums. And this is like the 100th time people have told you this..
R1CH and Wax are TL staff.
They may not be involved with running the Team Team Liquid but they are staff on Team Liquid. Yes I really wish there was simpler terminology to differentiate them but referring to one as TTL and the other as TL isn't very catchy.
On May 02 2013 01:31 Bumblebee wrote: To everyone wondering, the community website and the team is two different things. We do live under the same tag, but we're not dependant on eachother. You don't see our team's news be frontpaged as normal TLnet news and so forth, we have a seperate website for that called TeamLiquidPro. The same goes for the staff. WaxAngel is not responsible to keep things to himself because the team should do something differently.
That's why.
There is terminology. There is TLnet and there's TLpro. Team website and twitter is also TeamLiquidPro (http://www.teamliquidpro.com/)
On May 05 2013 23:44 DarkLordOlli wrote: The only reason why I brought this up is because he's been hating on TL staff in the HerO vs major thread as well without actually understanding the difference between the community website and the team.
Now, back to the actual discussion. I don't think Wax was wrong. He wasn't very nice about it but he wasn't wrong.
When was Wax supposed to be a nice guy? It's always been his style. I guess some people are still learning that about him. He's not the type of guy who will hold your hand.
Tough style to pull off when you also happen to hold moderation rights, what can I say.
DeMu and Moose are nowhere in the blame for this. They could've been super manner & nice about it, but I don't think a lot of people would have acted differently.
Don't understand the hate, outside of the standard couch-comments from people who've never even been close to a similar situation.
On May 06 2013 00:07 Resilient wrote: None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up.
You can't really expect demuslim's little tournament threat to fly. Speaking of growing up, he really needs to do some maturing. He threw a tantrum because he wanted to qualify for WCS NA after getting a BYE then beating Kawaii and moosegills, which is the opposite of the sportsmanship he's claiming this is about.
Look at this with some intelligent thought rather than as a fan boy. The last thing we need is players to have more control over tournament decisions. Having them decide whether or not to regame is bad enough. MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag. In the grown up world, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Standing up for yourself has nothing to do with being unsportsmanlike or a douchebag.
The 2 wrongs here are mlg fuckin up and then trying to screw even more players over.
Standing up for yourself isn't unsportsmanlike, that's right. But the way he did was.
I can't, for example, imagine WhithRa act like this.
On May 05 2013 23:44 DarkLordOlli wrote: The only reason why I brought this up is because he's been hating on TL staff in the HerO vs major thread as well without actually understanding the difference between the community website and the team.
Now, back to the actual discussion. I don't think Wax was wrong. He wasn't very nice about it but he wasn't wrong.
When was Wax supposed to be a nice guy? It's always been his style. I guess some people are still learning that about him. He's not the type of guy who will hold your hand.
Tough style to pull off when you also happen to hold moderation rights, what can I say.
DeMu and Moose are nowhere in the blame for this. They could've been super manner & nice about it, but I don't think a lot of people would have acted differently.
Don't understand the hate, outside of the standard couch-comments from people who've never even been close to a similar situation.
We've actually been close to this situation back when we were running around and contacting everyone's sponsors. Did it work? Yeah, we sure fucked our scene up a bit. Was it a good idea? You tell me.
Demuslim could have threatened to forfeit, leave his fans in the dust, and redirect their anger at MLG, as well as ruin a small chunk of their content. That's the scumbag thing to do.
He also could have had his management go handle the situation like the professionals they are paid to be.
Not even IdrA would have pulled something so ridiculous on MLG. Maybe not even stephano.
On May 06 2013 00:07 Resilient wrote: None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up.
You can't really expect demuslim's little tournament threat to fly. Speaking of growing up, he really needs to do some maturing. He threw a tantrum because he wanted to qualify for WCS NA after getting a BYE then beating Kawaii and moosegills, which is the opposite of the sportsmanship he's claiming this is about.
Look at this with some intelligent thought rather than as a fan boy. The last thing we need is players to have more control over tournament decisions. Having them decide whether or not to regame is bad enough. MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag. In the grown up world, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Standing up for yourself has nothing to do with being unsportsmanlike or a douchebag.
The 2 wrongs here are mlg fuckin up and then trying to screw even more players over.
Standing up for yourself isn't unsportsmanlike, that's right. But the way he did was.
I can't, for example, imagine WhithRa act like this.
Why did DeMusliM have to fight MLG to get them to respect its own rules? This is largely what it's about. MLG was ready to rewrite their own rules to unfuck Miya, while screwing 2-3 more players.
Players really don't have much power over tournaments. Sure, threatening to forfeit is the nuclear option, but it is pretty much the only option other than "I'll whine about this on a forum". The only good thing MLG did is not let DeMusliM's threat affect their decision, even if their decision was wrong. One of the posted log clearly shows the admin telling DeMusliM that they would respect his decision to forfeit.
I think that the basis of good team management is standing by your players with integrity. If Genna felt that the best decision for the tournament was to let Miya go to the losers bracket then that is something everyone should respect. Likewise I am sure that she would fight really hard for her player if she felt a bad decision was affecting them negatively. Carrying yourself in such a manner will allow organizations to take you more serious when you come and ask to be heard. The way Liquid is ran is if you have a case; fight for it. If you don't; don't. Personally I do think Genna had a case for the winners bracket spot being the best solution for the tournament, however that is just a difference in opinion. I do agree with her philosophy, and try to follow it myself as well.
I can't help but think there could have been a better result than this. There are no strict guidelines for a situation like this. MLG rules do not reflect the fact that they themselves provided the wrong starting time. Every choice you make will hurt people in one way or another. In that sense there is no right and wrong and every view on the situation should be treated with respect. The way I see the bracket is that placing Miya back into winners takes DeMusliM and Moosegills from a positive situation to a neutral one (with the added note that DeMusliM being up one game affects him negatively if he was to be put back at 0-0), whereas putting Miya in the losers takes him from neutral to negative. With all of that in mind I think MLG's original ruling was a fair decision.
Whenever there are decisions without any sort of guidelines there are also other variables that you can look at to use. For example what if Miya had been put into the winners bracket, and if he had beaten Moosegills he gets a 0-1 disadvantage against DeMusliM, who was already up 1-0 in the winners final. Or you can put Miya in the losers bracket but offer to let him play in an MLG hosted showmatch for $500. No decision you make here will ever be completely balanced. These other variables can be used to pull a (necessary) imbalanced decision more towards a neutral result for everyone.
On May 06 2013 00:07 Resilient wrote: None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up.
You can't really expect demuslim's little tournament threat to fly. Speaking of growing up, he really needs to do some maturing. He threw a tantrum because he wanted to qualify for WCS NA after getting a BYE then beating Kawaii and moosegills, which is the opposite of the sportsmanship he's claiming this is about.
Look at this with some intelligent thought rather than as a fan boy. The last thing we need is players to have more control over tournament decisions. Having them decide whether or not to regame is bad enough. MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag. In the grown up world, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Standing up for yourself has nothing to do with being unsportsmanlike or a douchebag.
The 2 wrongs here are mlg fuckin up and then trying to screw even more players over.
Standing up for yourself isn't unsportsmanlike, that's right. But the way he did was.
I can't, for example, imagine WhithRa act like this.
Why did DeMusliM have to fight MLG to get them to respect its own rules? This is largely what it's about. MLG was ready to rewrite their own rules to unfuck Miya, while screwing 2-3 more players.
Players really don't have much power over tournaments. Sure, threatening to forfeit is the nuclear option, but it is pretty much the only option other than "I'll whine about this on a forum". The only good thing MLG did is not let DeMusliM's threat affect their decision, even if their decision was wrong. One of the posted log clearly shows the admin telling DeMusliM that they would respect his decision to forfeit.
i accept that demuslims only power in the situation is to threaten to forfeit completely but its also not a tenable situation to allow players to act like that, whether its teams or leagues refusing to accept it. if the ruling is swayed by the popularity of a player we arent really getting anywhere. so maybe demuslim didnt have any other option, but it feels like the moment he thought things were going to shit he instantly goes crazy. he could be a lot more patient with the situation, rather than coming across as a bit of a dick.
more importantly though, and something it think people arent talking enough about, is that once again the moment the veil is lifted on the inside workings on esports, it turns out the people running events are shockingly bad. according to genna's statement its common practice for start times to just be complete bullshit, anything is possible and you need to chase down admins to get up to date info. so mlg have been running for 5+ years and still cant schedule an event? how many other leagues play so loosely with the idea of 'rules' and 'doing your job'?
from what im hearing/reading everyone is getting caught up on did mlg/axiom/demuslim do the right thing and no one is talking about what we can do to stop this happening again. it was only a few months ago that MLG let a known hacker play in an event, no one at the time even wanted to entertain a conversation about MLGs failure to follow the scene closely enough to know who hacks. then we get to the WCS qualifier and we have MLG again failing to show that they learnt their lesson.
i dont care if this admin got fired, i dont really care that much if 1 event is ruined/damaged. what seems to be the case though, and not just with MLG in particular, is that no one is taking steps to improve the situation long term, people only care about short term PR bandages.
On May 06 2013 00:07 Resilient wrote: None of this would have happened if MLG didn't fuck up for the 100th time since WCS started. NA is literally the only WCS region that consistently has problems. At this point I just wonder if NASL wouldn't have been a better choice for everyone concerned.
As for people attacking Demuslim especially, sure it probably could have been handled more diplomatically but the amount of times he has been jerked around specifically is pretty unbelievable...I would have snapped long ago. TL staff going on personal crusades to deface players is worse than players getting frustrated at MLG's amateur mistakes. Grow the fuck up.
You can't really expect demuslim's little tournament threat to fly. Speaking of growing up, he really needs to do some maturing. He threw a tantrum because he wanted to qualify for WCS NA after getting a BYE then beating Kawaii and moosegills, which is the opposite of the sportsmanship he's claiming this is about.
Look at this with some intelligent thought rather than as a fan boy. The last thing we need is players to have more control over tournament decisions. Having them decide whether or not to regame is bad enough. MLG screwed up, but that doesn't justify demuslim being a scumbag. In the grown up world, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Standing up for yourself has nothing to do with being unsportsmanlike or a douchebag.
The 2 wrongs here are mlg fuckin up and then trying to screw even more players over.
Standing up for yourself isn't unsportsmanlike, that's right. But the way he did was.
I can't, for example, imagine WhithRa act like this.
Why did DeMusliM have to fight MLG to get them to respect its own rules? This is largely what it's about. MLG was ready to rewrite their own rules to unfuck Miya, while screwing 2-3 more players.
Players really don't have much power over tournaments. Sure, threatening to forfeit is the nuclear option, but it is pretty much the only option other than "I'll whine about this on a forum". The only good thing MLG did is not let DeMusliM's threat affect their decision, even if their decision was wrong. One of the posted log clearly shows the admin telling DeMusliM that they would respect his decision to forfeit.
i accept that demuslims only power in the situation is to threaten to forfeit completely but its also not a tenable situation to allow players to act like that, whether its teams or leagues refusing to accept it. if the ruling is swayed by the popularity of a player we arent really getting anywhere. so maybe demuslim didnt have any other option, but it feels like the moment he thought things were going to shit he instantly goes crazy. he could be a lot more patient with the situation, rather than coming across as a bit of a dick.
more importantly though, and something it think people arent talking enough about, is that once again the moment the veil is lifted on the inside workings on esports, it turns out the people running events are shockingly bad. according to ganna's statement its common practice for start times to just be complete bullshit, anything is possible and you need to chase down admins to get up to date info. so mlg have been running for 5+ years and still cant schedule an event? how many other leagues play so loosely with the idea of 'rules' and 'doing your job'?
from what im hearing/reading everyone is getting caught up on did mlg/axiom/demuslim do the right thing and no one is talking about what we can do to stop this happening again. it was only a few months ago that MLG let a known hacker play in an event, no one at the time even wanted to entertain a conversation about MLGs failure to follow the scene closely enough to know who hacks. then we get to the WCS qualifier and we have MLG again failing to show that they learnt their lesson.
i dont care if this admin got fired, i dont really care that much if 1 event is ruined/damaged. what seems to be the case though, and not just with MLG in particular, is that no one is taking steps to improve the situation long term, people only care about short term PR bandages.
And now you understand why some people were concerned over MLG having the NA qualifier, they are known to fuck things up.
I would like to add something here. Firing somebody because something went wrong is a nice symbolic jesture to the haters, but really bad in the long run. Firing someone doesnt solve anything. Learn from it, chance certain communication policies etc... but not fire peeps because they have tried there best. Feels wrong.
On May 05 2013 23:44 DarkLordOlli wrote: The only reason why I brought this up is because he's been hating on TL staff in the HerO vs major thread as well without actually understanding the difference between the community website and the team.
Now, back to the actual discussion. I don't think Wax was wrong. He wasn't very nice about it but he wasn't wrong.
When was Wax supposed to be a nice guy? It's always been his style. I guess some people are still learning that about him. He's not the type of guy who will hold your hand.
On May 06 2013 01:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: whereas putting Miya in the losers takes him from neutral to negative.
I can imagine, if you have to play after 3,5h of sleep without any preperation allready takes it from neutral to negative. Not to speak of a, maybe long, day with GSTL before.
The most ridiculous part of this entire thing is that MLG was willing to put Miya back into the winner's bracket. That makes absolutely no sense. If he was a random no-name scrub they would never have considered doing that.
Ultimately the fault lies with Miya. Admin's are people. They make mistakes. If you rely entirely on them then you're going to be misled every now and then. If the information was easily accessible (which it was) then there's no reason the player shouldn't know exactly what time to show up. Language barrier does not excuse the player of his responsibility.
On May 06 2013 02:03 DoomsVille wrote: Ultimately the fault lies with Miya. Admin's are people. They make mistakes. If you rely entirely on them then you're going to be misled every now and then. If the information was easily accessible (which it was) then there's no reason the player shouldn't know exactly what time to show up. Language barrier does not excuse the player of his responsibility.
It was mentioned over and over again, that the easily accessible informations are not right, because they were often wrong in the past...
On May 05 2013 17:08 BirdKiller wrote: 2 points coming off from reading this:
1. It was indeed Miya's personal responsibility to know his/her match schedule ahead of time. The fact that Miya's team was aware of the schedule on May 1st, yet Miya was asking about it the day before the match, leaves some room for improvement on his/her team. Miya even asking two days before the match could have prevented this from happening. Miya and his team could've prevented this incident between May 1st to May 4th.
Nope, you really can't. WCS has proven up to this point that these dates and times given out via email or by the site cannot be relied upon as being accurate as they frequently change. Information from admins trumps everything. If an admin says Time Y and the email says Time X then you assume Time Y is correct.
On May 05 2013 23:44 DarkLordOlli wrote: The only reason why I brought this up is because he's been hating on TL staff in the HerO vs major thread as well without actually understanding the difference between the community website and the team.
Now, back to the actual discussion. I don't think Wax was wrong. He wasn't very nice about it but he wasn't wrong.
When was Wax supposed to be a nice guy? It's always been his style. I guess some people are still learning that about him. He's not the type of guy who will hold your hand.
Tough style to pull off when you also happen to hold moderation rights, what can I say.
...the standard couch-comments from people who've never even been close to a similar situation.
I guess you haven't met a lot of the staff. They could have dealt with it better (I don't mean the TL staff). That's funny because it happened all the time in BW. Endless disputes in clan leagues and the whole nine yards. o;
On May 06 2013 02:03 DoomsVille wrote: The most ridiculous part of this entire thing is that MLG was willing to put Miya back into the winner's bracket. That makes absolutely no sense. If he was a random no-name scrub they would never have considered doing that.
That's the interesting question, isn't it? Swap Moosegills and Miya. Moosegills was given the wrong information, Miya and DeMusliM are currently playing their match where the winner has a code A spot. Moosegills shows up, what happens?
Based on what I've heard happening at MLG live events, I would expect: - MLG would not have delayed the previous round's walkover time by two hours, like they did for Miya. - they tell Moosegills "Sorry, play in the losers bracket".
On May 06 2013 02:03 DoomsVille wrote: The most ridiculous part of this entire thing is that MLG was willing to put Miya back into the winner's bracket. That makes absolutely no sense. If he was a random no-name scrub they would never have considered doing that.
That's the interesting question, isn't it? Swap Moosegills and Miya. Moosegills was given the wrong information, Miya and DeMusliM are currently playing their match where the winner has a code A spot. Moosegills shows up, what happens?
Based on what I've heard happening at MLG live events, I would expect: - MLG would not have delayed the previous round's walkover time by two hours, like they did for Miya. - they tell Moosegills "Sorry, play in the losers bracket".
I'm actually surprised that they didn't simply forfeited moosegills and make miya play versus demuslim right when miya showed up (sarcasm)
Many people are asking 'why couldn't the team check on the original information?' followed by the statement that the original info can often change and be actually wrong later.
Here's the chat logs that Genna provided (thanks Genna and TB for having an awesome team and being willing to get into the trenches for them):
On May 05 2013 14:27 Intricacy wrote:
10:22pm KST Miya : please tell me when my game? wcs america 10:22pm KST Admin : Challenger? 10:23pm KST Miya : i'm wcs america code A 10:23pm KST Admin : ahh kk one sec Monday, May 6, 2013 at 4:30AM KST 10:23pm KST Miya : oh ok thx!! 10:33pm KST Miya : good night! 02:33am KST Admin : Hey, I wanted to correct a mistake I made, Its sunday may 5th at 4:30KST, not monday (Miya is already asleep, and the event is 2 hours away...)
The one thing that could have maybe prevented this would have been to ask the question "Is the game still on Sunday @ ______ time?" instead of just the question "when is it?", because you have a definite timestamp to check. Unfortunately, for players competing in WCS NA who are not native English speakers, being careful to have that level of precision is not always practical or reasonable. Of course the admin could have messed up then, too, but then we'd have an unequivocal situation where a major mistake was made because of a provision of an actually correct time being denied by an MLG official.
All in all, this really highlights what Genna said about a need for better communication amongst the tournament organizers and teams. It would suck hard, but we may reach the point where the team manager/captain/whatever actually needs to phone or Skype call or Google Phone the admins the day of the original schedule just to check that something hasn't gone sideways in the last day. Really unfortunate if that's the case; we shouldn't have to do that in an era where instantaneous updates can be provided to a website (hell, airports manage it with thousands of flights a day). Adding to that, there needs to be a contact list maintained by the tournament to send out an APB on any critical changes to scheduling.
I don't know why people are screaming bias for miya and saying they wouldn't have done the same for a no name. They were only taking this stance because it was their fault to begin with. Also miya isn't even really one of the more popular Koreans. It's not like they were screwing Jaedong here.
I still don't believe demuslim or moose were getting screwed if miya was put back into the bracket. All they lost was time but it's mid afternoon for them and they barely played many games up to this point so it's not like they were tired. Still believe Mlg made the best decision initially to fix their error. Playing the original bracket out was the fairest situation for all in my opinion.
On May 06 2013 02:22 Canucklehead wrote: I don't know why people are screaming bias for miya and saying they wouldn't have done the same for a no name. They were only taking this stance because it was their fault to begin with. Also miya isn't even really one of the more popular Koreans. It's nott like they were screwing Jaedong here.
I still don't believe demuslim or moose were getting screwed if miya was put back into the bracket. All they lost was time but it's mid afternoon for them and they barely played many games up to this point so it's not like they were tired. Still believe Mlg made the best decision initially to fix their error. Playing the original bracket out was the fairest situation for all in my opinion.
The problem with this this is that after pretty much every MLG with an open bracket their is at least one and sometimes 2 or 3 notable NA pro,s and even Crank once who have been DQ,d for showing up 10-15 mins late for a match as an admin told them the wrong info and the response was tough luck deal with it.
MLG have had this happen to them so often I expect this sort of shit right now. Also I disagree that putting Miya back in is the correct response and that was only possible because MLG were waiting so long for Miya to show up, If MLG had given their usual 15-20 mins then the DeMu Moos games would more than likely have been over. Add into that that if either player breaks out a cheese or all in on a certain map to claim a game against the other and then Moose beats Miya then your not back at the same point the situation is very different now with that information known to the players.
Now now now... This whole thing reminds me when TLO was playing code a qualifier and reached the finals against Inori. He was told he had to play a bo5, but when he was winning 2-1 the admins realised the rules said bo3. Since he is super mannered, he was fine with playing the remaining matches. But this kind of errors should not happen.
On May 06 2013 02:22 Canucklehead wrote: I don't know why people are screaming bias for miya and saying they wouldn't have done the same for a no name. They were only taking this stance because it was their fault to begin with. Also miya isn't even really one of the more popular Koreans. It's nott like they were screwing Jaedong here.
I still don't believe demuslim or moose were getting screwed if miya was put back into the bracket. All they lost was time but it's mid afternoon for them and they barely played many games up to this point so it's not like they were tired. Still believe Mlg made the best decision initially to fix their error. Playing the original bracket out was the fairest situation for all in my opinion.
Because they never do.
As MarcH said, it happened like 3-4 times at basically every single MLG there ever was and they didn't give a fuck, they didn't reverse anything during WCS Premier Division Qualifiers where they fucked shit up a lot more than yesterday and everything continued as it was.
In the Premier Qualifiers they should have re-played the whole bracket after they disqualified Comm one game away from qualifying, technically all of his games shouldn't have counted.
Hyun knocked out multiple players after MLG DQed him the first time and they didn't re-play anything.
Hell, they should have restarted the whole qualifier because the Chinese players were given wrong information regarding their place in the brackets and afterwards they learned that they weren't actually in when they thought they were in.
On May 06 2013 02:22 Canucklehead wrote: I don't know why people are screaming bias for miya and saying they wouldn't have done the same for a no name. They were only taking this stance because it was their fault to begin with. Also miya isn't even really one of the more popular Koreans. It's nott like they were screwing Jaedong here.
I still don't believe demuslim or moose were getting screwed if miya was put back into the bracket. All they lost was time but it's mid afternoon for them and they barely played many games up to this point so it's not like they were tired. Still believe Mlg made the best decision initially to fix their error. Playing the original bracket out was the fairest situation for all in my opinion.
Because they never do.
As MarcH said, it happened like 3-4 times at basically every single MLG there ever was and they didn't give a fuck, they didn't reverse anything during WCS Premier Division Qualifiers where they fucked shit up a lot more than yesterday and everything continued as it was.
In the Premier Qualifiers they should have re-played the whole bracket after they disqualified Comm one game away from qualifying, technically all of his games shouldn't have counted.
Hyun knocked out multiple players after MLG DQed him the first time and they didn't re-play anything.
Hell, they should have restarted the whole qualifier because the Chinese players were given wrong information regarding their place in the brackets and afterwards they learned that they weren't actually in when they thought they were in.
On May 06 2013 01:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think that the basis of good team management is standing by your players with integrity. If Genna felt that the best decision for the tournament was to let Miya go to the losers bracket then that is something everyone should respect. Likewise I am sure that she would fight really hard for her player if she felt a bad decision was affecting them negatively. Carrying yourself in such a manner will allow organizations to take you more serious when you come and ask to be heard. The way Liquid is ran is if you have a case; fight for it. If you don't; don't. Personally I do think Genna had a case for the winners bracket spot being the best solution for the tournament, however that is just a difference in opinion. I do agree with her philosophy, and try to follow it myself as well.
I can't help but think there could have been a better result than this. There are no strict guidelines for a situation like this. MLG rules do not reflect the fact that they themselves provided the wrong starting time. Every choice you make will hurt people in one way or another. In that sense there is no right and wrong and every view on the situation should be treated with respect. The way I see the bracket is that placing Miya back into winners takes DeMusliM and Moosegills from a positive situation to a neutral one (with the added note that DeMusliM being up one game affects him negatively if he was to be put back at 0-0), whereas putting Miya in the losers takes him from neutral to negative. With all of that in mind I think MLG's original ruling was a fair decision.
Whenever there are decisions without any sort of guidelines there are also other variables that you can look at to use. For example what if Miya had been put into the winners bracket, and if he had beaten Moosegills he gets a 0-1 disadvantage against DeMusliM, who was already up 1-0 in the winners final. Or you can put Miya in the losers bracket but offer to let him play in an MLG hosted showmatch for $500. No decision you make here will ever be completely balanced. These other variables can be used to pull a (necessary) imbalanced decision more towards a neutral result for everyone.
Not that it changes your story / your view much, but I was up over Demuslim 1-0 when they made us pause then game and then 1-1 after we finished the game. Making us both exactly 1 game away from making it.
So in my opinion, both due to our time investment in this tournament (waiting a lot), and both of us being one game away from making it, putting Miya in the winners bracket it makes it quite a negative situation for both me and demuslim, not (possibly) neutral one for either.
On May 06 2013 01:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I can't help but think there could have been a better result than this. There are no strict guidelines for a situation like this. MLG rules do not reflect the fact that they themselves provided the wrong starting time. Every choice you make will hurt people in one way or another. In that sense there is no right and wrong and every view on the situation should be treated with respect. The way I see the bracket is that placing Miya back into winners takes DeMusliM and Moosegills from a positive situation to a neutral one (with the added note that DeMusliM being up one game affects him negatively if he was to be put back at 0-0), whereas putting Miya in the losers takes him from neutral to negative. With all of that in mind I think MLG's original ruling was a fair decision.
Just to nitpick and speculate a bit - I would imagine (without knowing the rules) that the rules state something in the lines, that when the player does not show up on time he will be giving a walkover to his opponent *without* specifying who's fault it would have to be. So in that context, an MLG admin is a third party (besides the two players) in the context of the rules, so they would be equivalent to let's say a bus driver who randomly hit your car and caused you to not make it to your match. In this scenario the rules would be quite clear in my opinion and the w/o given to Mr.Gills is legit. And subsequently undoing the w/o would be against the rules of the tournament (I'm pretty sure if a random bus driver caused the late thingy, there would be any conversation regarding whether the w/o should be undone or not).
It seems to me, that from the rules perspective taking back a legit w/o is a rather very weird thing to do to Moosegills.
In the end this is a mistake by MLG admin, but the blame should probably be directed at Sundance. This is not a mistake an admin should be able to make in the first place in my opinion - the correct answer for Miya's question includes a link to the schedule. The admin in question probably has someone above him and below Sundance, who's responsible for the scheduling those things, but I think this is general enough mess to blame it on Sunny (he can reprimand his subjects as he sees fit, but it's really mostly his fault as far as I can see). The admin messed up quite badly, but the point being that he shouldn't have been able to mess this up at all (at least not so easily).
PS. Most of the above is based on the assumption that the scheduling is not on "when an admin tells you to play" basis according to the rules. If it is then the w/o is not valid and according to the tournament rules the matches should be replayed and the Moongills-DeMusliM match is invalid at this point.
PS.PS. Couldn't they have rescheduled the match after they found out that Miya was given a wrong time - it was quite obvious the mistake was known before the the scheduled start (just delay the whole bracket as much as required till Miya is woken).
Mad props to Genna for keeping up the Bain reputation of being awesome!
Whether the ruling was right or not, I don't know.. can debate it all day. However, I can't see how people are painting Moosegills and Demu in such a negative light?
It wasn't there fuck up... they were 1-1 in a match to see who would advance in NA Code A whilst being stopped and started by admins trying to force a bracket reset. Now, if I were Moosegills I'd be pretty pissed about this! I'm a relative unknown, on the verge of qualifying into a tournament which could propel not only my rep, but my career... suddenly, after waiting for a considerable amount of time for Miya and then for Demu to play Kawaii, im being told all of my efforts, through no fault of my own, are invalid? Erm yeah... you're going to react pretty bitterly, and calling bias, whilst (i'd like to hope) not right, is probably an understandable release of frustration!
Now, for Demu... after the whole Premier League invite debate Id say he was already pretty irritated with MLG. Then, after proceeding to within a game of qualifying to the Premier League, he loses... not MLG's fault, but still pretty frustrating, especially after playing the way he did! Now, the Challenger qualifiers, within 1 game (AGAIN) of qualifying for a WCS and MLG are pausing his games and telling him to restart the entire winners bracket? With no representation and no bargaining tools I like to think that his threat of forfeiting was not only logical, but also, justified. He must have been feeling at that point that MLG was truly out to get him... Demu isn't a BM guy, when he's vocal, he's vocal about tournament scheduling/treatment etc, again, justifiable.
Regardless of what the right course of action was, Moosegills and Demu were standing up for themselves in an incredibly pressured situation, after waiting hours upon hours for MLG to get their act together (again). Id say the way they acted was understandable, and anyone that argues otherwise obviously lacks the potential to emphasise with people in their situation...
On May 06 2013 01:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think that the basis of good team management is standing by your players with integrity. If Genna felt that the best decision for the tournament was to let Miya go to the losers bracket then that is something everyone should respect. Likewise I am sure that she would fight really hard for her player if she felt a bad decision was affecting them negatively. Carrying yourself in such a manner will allow organizations to take you more serious when you come and ask to be heard. The way Liquid is ran is if you have a case; fight for it. If you don't; don't. Personally I do think Genna had a case for the winners bracket spot being the best solution for the tournament, however that is just a difference in opinion. I do agree with her philosophy, and try to follow it myself as well.
I can't help but think there could have been a better result than this. There are no strict guidelines for a situation like this. MLG rules do not reflect the fact that they themselves provided the wrong starting time. Every choice you make will hurt people in one way or another. In that sense there is no right and wrong and every view on the situation should be treated with respect. The way I see the bracket is that placing Miya back into winners takes DeMusliM and Moosegills from a positive situation to a neutral one (with the added note that DeMusliM being up one game affects him negatively if he was to be put back at 0-0), whereas putting Miya in the losers takes him from neutral to negative. With all of that in mind I think MLG's original ruling was a fair decision.
Whenever there are decisions without any sort of guidelines there are also other variables that you can look at to use. For example what if Miya had been put into the winners bracket, and if he had beaten Moosegills he gets a 0-1 disadvantage against DeMusliM, who was already up 1-0 in the winners final. Or you can put Miya in the losers bracket but offer to let him play in an MLG hosted showmatch for $500. No decision you make here will ever be completely balanced. These other variables can be used to pull a (necessary) imbalanced decision more towards a neutral result for everyone.
The only problem was that the situation couldn't be solved behind curtains and was already spread to reddit. The fact the DeMusliM wanted to forfeit his spot if Miya got placed back made the situation very hard to solve correctly and fair overall. As Reddit already had put lot's of discussion and hate towards the error that has been made the dropout of DeMusliM whould only have increased the whole rage towards MLG (or the admin who made the fault). Genna had a tough descission to make but i agree with what she did because overall she saved the face of MLG, put her Brand in a nice light regarding sportsmanship and she (most of all) avoided the whole drama that whould've happened if Miya got placed in WB and DeMusliM then forfeited his spot. As part of the community i appreciate the sacrifice she and Miya made to solve this quickly even if i'm a bit sad Miya didn't manage to qualify.
Ok, i'm reading some comments here and i honestly can't believe some of them...
So, let's think about this for a second... the problem was between MLG and MIYA/Axiom...DemusliM and Moosegills just waited for him to show up, he didnt, they kept the schedule going and started playing their series, they had absolutely nothing to do with the lack or organization by MLG and Miya, they were just keeping on with their tournamente runs as they should... then all of a sudden some admin says.
"hey, i'm sorry, we fucked up yesterday telling our korean superstar the wrong time to play, could you please undo your 2+ hours of waiting and your 2 game series so we can try to fix our mistake and dont stain our image cuz we suck at organizing shit?...pretty please?"
HELL NO! They did nothing wrong, they showed up in time, they waited for the player... and now they have to pay for someone else's mistake in such a big and important tournament? I mean, Demuslim and Moosegills were actually gentlemans in that situation using the words "please" and "sorry", i'd have absolutely bm'ed every single admin because the incompetent people really piss me off.
Ok now, for miya's side of things... it's not his fault either... He asked the admin what was the correct time to show up, he did his part right there asking for information to an administration member.
THE ADMIN TOLD HIM THE FREAKING WRONG TIME!
It's pretty obvious the flaw was on the MLG side of things, if you say to someone to show up at 2.pm... and then realize they should show up at 12am... it's your fucking responsability to let that person know you passed some wrong information, even if that means calling Genna at 3:30am with a humble voice saying
"Hey Genna, i hate to wake you up, but i screwed up really bad and told Miya the wrong time he has to play, i'm really reeeeeeeeeeeally sorry about this, could you please contact him for me as soon as possible?! Any questions i'll be available throught the whole day at 9999-9999 or johndoe@email.com, thank you a lot, and again, i'm sorry about this, hope it doesnt affect his tournament run"
It's your fucking fault and YOU SHOULD be afraid to get fired for something like that... i dont care if you dont have Genna's number to call her, i mean, you are an ADMIN for a reason, deal with it and figure out some way to undo your mistake untill it's too late.
Props to Genna for being the adult here, and realizing, even tho Axiom/Miya had no part on this, if they let MLG put Miya back in WB, shit would hit the fan. Thanks for the maturity.
TLDR: it's not players fault, neither miya, demuslim or moosegills were to blame... mlg has to put their shit togheter if they wanna run something big like that. Props to Genna
That's interesting because a) wax isn't really involved in the scenario. All he did was tell a few guys to quit bitching about a decision that isn't really in their hands and b) wax doesn't really give a fuck about what anyone thinks about him.
hehehe i got blocked from TB, genna and axiom's twitter after i asked questions about this blog
the aftermath on how MLG tried to fix the problems that occured was just tasteless, a rule is a rule, and the first ruling that is made should stand.
what i belive/think was the problem from the first place is inside axiom, they need to have a good chain of command to follow, and not let their players try to fix everything for themself when the language barrier is so hard.
they should have a white board and a monthly schedule to follow, is that so hard? they did get the correct times in an email 4-5 days prior to challanger league started.
allso wanna give a shoutout to Genna, TB and Axiom even tho im blocked from your twitters im still a fan!
On May 07 2013 00:37 ftjust wrote: hehehe i got blocked from TB, genna and axiom's twitter after i asked questions about this blog
the aftermath on how MLG tried to fix the problems that occured was just tasteless, a rule is a rule, and the first ruling that is made should stand.
what i belive/think was the problem from the first place is inside axiom, they need to have a good chain of command to follow, and not let their players try to fix everything for themself when the language barrier is so hard.
they should have a white board and a monthly schedule to follow, is that so hard? they did get the correct times in an email 4-5 days prior to challanger league started.
allso wanna give a shoutout to Genna, TB and Axiom even tho im blocked from your twitters im still a fan!
Because you don't know anything. You're one of those people who is desperate to share their opinion even though they don't have all the facts. I have no idea why, it's a strange internet phenomenon. You don't know enough about how Axiom runs, how WCS runs, how MLG operates to intelligently contribute to this discussion.
On May 07 2013 00:37 ftjust wrote: hehehe i got blocked from TB, genna and axiom's twitter after i asked questions about this blog
the aftermath on how MLG tried to fix the problems that occured was just tasteless, a rule is a rule, and the first ruling that is made should stand.
what i belive/think was the problem from the first place is inside axiom, they need to have a good chain of command to follow, and not let their players try to fix everything for themself when the language barrier is so hard.
they should have a white board and a monthly schedule to follow, is that so hard? they did get the correct times in an email 4-5 days prior to challanger league started.
allso wanna give a shoutout to Genna, TB and Axiom even tho im blocked from your twitters im still a fan!
Because you don't know anything. You're one of those people who is desperate to share their opinion even though they don't have all the facts. I have no idea why, it's a strange internet phenomenon. You don't know enough about how Axiom runs, how WCS runs, how MLG operates to intelligently contribute to this discussion.
And your opinion to not let peeps contribute or give them a chance to voice there opinions in a forumtopic, because u believe they do not know enough about the topic, is also a "wierd internet phenomenom"
On May 07 2013 00:37 ftjust wrote: hehehe i got blocked from TB, genna and axiom's twitter after i asked questions about this blog
the aftermath on how MLG tried to fix the problems that occured was just tasteless, a rule is a rule, and the first ruling that is made should stand.
what i belive/think was the problem from the first place is inside axiom, they need to have a good chain of command to follow, and not let their players try to fix everything for themself when the language barrier is so hard.
they should have a white board and a monthly schedule to follow, is that so hard? they did get the correct times in an email 4-5 days prior to challanger league started.
allso wanna give a shoutout to Genna, TB and Axiom even tho im blocked from your twitters im still a fan!
Because you don't know anything. You're one of those people who is desperate to share their opinion even though they don't have all the facts. I have no idea why, it's a strange internet phenomenon. You don't know enough about how Axiom runs, how WCS runs, how MLG operates to intelligently contribute to this discussion.
And your opinion to not let peeps contribute or give them a chance to voice there opinions in a forumtopic, because u believe they do not know enough about the topic, is also a "wierd internet phenomenom"
Although you're trying to be cute, what TB is doing is not an internet phenomenon in any sense of the word, but what that guy TB responded to is doing (demanding acknowledgement of his uninformed opinions) is a weird internet phenomenon.
Ftjust's post states a lot of things as facts when he doesn't really know how Axiom is run, what their chain of command is, etc - he also mistakenly says they should "not let their players try to fix everything for themselves when the language barrier is so hard." Just by reading the information that is publicly available in this thread, he could see that was not what happened. Now do you see why uninformed or uneducated opinions aren't very useful?
On May 07 2013 00:37 ftjust wrote: hehehe i got blocked from TB, genna and axiom's twitter after i asked questions about this blog
the aftermath on how MLG tried to fix the problems that occured was just tasteless, a rule is a rule, and the first ruling that is made should stand.
what i belive/think was the problem from the first place is inside axiom, they need to have a good chain of command to follow, and not let their players try to fix everything for themself when the language barrier is so hard.
they should have a white board and a monthly schedule to follow, is that so hard? they did get the correct times in an email 4-5 days prior to challanger league started.
allso wanna give a shoutout to Genna, TB and Axiom even tho im blocked from your twitters im still a fan!
Because you don't know anything. You're one of those people who is desperate to share their opinion even though they don't have all the facts. I have no idea why, it's a strange internet phenomenon. You don't know enough about how Axiom runs, how WCS runs, how MLG operates to intelligently contribute to this discussion.
And your opinion to not let peeps contribute or give them a chance to voice there opinions in a forumtopic, because u believe they do not know enough about the topic, is also a "wierd internet phenomenom"
ftjust said "not let their players try to fix everything for themself" without offering any piece of evidence to suggest such behavior from Miya. Every pieces of dialogue we got out of this event so far suggestion that only thing Miya did was ask the admin for time, slept, got confused, let Genna handle things then took the bullet for everyone by following Genna's decision to just go into LB which ended up putting a significant speed bump on his career.
Everything else in his/her post is also simply judgmental, offering nothing to support his/her conclusions. If someone is going to constructively tell team owners that they need to restructure their organization, you need more than "they need to have a good chain of command to follow" and "have a white board and a monthly schedule to follow". Heck, the second part offers nothing because MLG changed schedules in short period of time with admin's words holding the most authority.
Actually nevermind, it did offer something. It showed that either ftjust is either lazy and didn't bother to read the OP/thread, or has poor reading comprehension.
But, when u work in a broadcast-able progamingscene like starcraft, u know peeps have alot of different opinions .. some more stupid then the other (or there even biased), its a part of standing in the spotlight. I'ts not all fun and games u know.
And if I were TB, i would be happy someone has an opinion about things happening in the SC2-scene even when there wrong, because it means sc2 is alive and kicking. In the long run this is good for the team aswell. Saying stuff like, u dont know what ur talking about so your opinion does not count is disrepectfull to the scene (even tho he might not ment it in that way). This is TL forum, like reddit, it exsists solely so peeps can give there opinions and share there thoughts/experiences. Thats why i posted my comment and quoted TB.
edit : my opinion on the matter is that MLG proved again they suck in organising this tournament. Everything in WCS NA that could go wrong went wrong. But i dont feel 1 person, like that admin is to blame. It was a simple mistake, but endresult was deadly. I hope he can still work at MLG because u can not blame 1 person for everything that went wrong over multiple WCS-NA qualifiers. I hate symbolpolitics as nobody gains fromthat sort of practices in the longrun.
On May 07 2013 06:08 govie wrote: But, when u work in a broadcast-able progamingscene like starcraft, u know peeps have alot of different opinions .. some more stupid then the other (or there even biased), its a part of standing in the spotlight. I'ts not all fun and games u know.
And if I were TB, i would be happy someone has an opinion about things happening in the SC2-scene even when there wrong, because it means sc2 is alive and kicking. In the long run this is good for the team aswell.
How can it be good for the team if people are going around saying that the said team's management is so poor that it needs to buy a whiteboard and write down their schedule on it (that's like telling pro SC2 players to use the keyboard, more insult than actual advice at all)? I just don't buy the "any kind of publicity is good publicity" even when it comes to entertainment business.
And this isn't an issue about having an opinion (all opinions are biased btw ). There are opinions (Ex., I like/dislike Genna's decision based on the facts I read about this situation), then there are insults based on speculation like what ftjust said. I don't see how such baseless accusations are helpful to team image and the scene at all. As an example, Alien Colonial Marines got huge publicity for SEGA. Awesome! lot of people have opinions about their product which means great things for SEGA... not
Obviously ACM bombing SEGA/Gearbox's image is not in the same ballpark as ftjust talking smack on teamliquid forum, but that's just to provide an example where clearly bad publicity is just bad.
On May 07 2013 00:37 ftjust wrote: hehehe i got blocked from TB, genna and axiom's twitter after i asked questions about this blog
the aftermath on how MLG tried to fix the problems that occured was just tasteless, a rule is a rule, and the first ruling that is made should stand.
what i belive/think was the problem from the first place is inside axiom, they need to have a good chain of command to follow, and not let their players try to fix everything for themself when the language barrier is so hard.
they should have a white board and a monthly schedule to follow, is that so hard? they did get the correct times in an email 4-5 days prior to challanger league started.
allso wanna give a shoutout to Genna, TB and Axiom even tho im blocked from your twitters im still a fan!
Because you don't know anything. You're one of those people who is desperate to share their opinion even though they don't have all the facts. I have no idea why, it's a strange internet phenomenon. You don't know enough about how Axiom runs, how WCS runs, how MLG operates to intelligently contribute to this discussion.
And your opinion to not let peeps contribute or give them a chance to voice there opinions in a forumtopic, because u believe they do not know enough about the topic, is also a "wierd internet phenomenom"
He didn't block him from TeamLiquid, he blocked him from his twitter. If TB doesn't want to put up with ftjust's opinions, it's his right. People should stop complaining all the time about everything...
On May 07 2013 00:37 ftjust wrote: hehehe i got blocked from TB, genna and axiom's twitter after i asked questions about this blog
the aftermath on how MLG tried to fix the problems that occured was just tasteless, a rule is a rule, and the first ruling that is made should stand.
what i belive/think was the problem from the first place is inside axiom, they need to have a good chain of command to follow, and not let their players try to fix everything for themself when the language barrier is so hard.
they should have a white board and a monthly schedule to follow, is that so hard? they did get the correct times in an email 4-5 days prior to challanger league started.
allso wanna give a shoutout to Genna, TB and Axiom even tho im blocked from your twitters im still a fan!
Because you don't know anything. You're one of those people who is desperate to share their opinion even though they don't have all the facts. I have no idea why, it's a strange internet phenomenon. You don't know enough about how Axiom runs, how WCS runs, how MLG operates to intelligently contribute to this discussion.
And your opinion to not let peeps contribute or give them a chance to voice there opinions in a forumtopic, because u believe they do not know enough about the topic, is also a "wierd internet phenomenom"
dont wanna just ramble on since the topic is so infected anyways but TB based his whole career from telling the world of his opinions, but when anyone else says something they are the problem and they are jackasses and they deserv to be harassed by the TB twitter army.
second, i dont know how axiom runs and i dont know all the ins and outs of WCS but the first line in the post said we recived and email with the schedule, and still their was mixups this is not trying to attack axiom tb or genna as i said im a fan. this is to esports in general and i brought it up on twitter because i wanted to discuss with others and hear their opinions only to get attacked by tb and some tb fans on twitter their have been so many mistakes in esports so much drama (less latley actully) and its all contirbute to alot of really simple things and silly mistakes that would never ever happen in a real workplace, and im frustrated i think progamers and teams need to step up and take this more serious. their is actully alot of people making alot of money in this scene now and i demand more, i both subscibe, in alot of diffrent channels twitch yourtube, follow diffrent esport league where i pay to watch and i watch shoutcrafts and tip the tip jarr. for what? and im not entitled 1 little bit of criticism without pitchforks up my ass
rant rant im really dissapointed in the outcome of this.