On September 23 2013 20:23 Kleinmuuhg wrote: As I am registered to vote in Bavaria chosing my votes this year was really easy again. Why would anyone sane vote for the CSU.
I disagreed with a lot the FDP did over the last few years and I certainly did not vote for them. Still I am sad that such a historic party is not in the Bundestag anymore. On paper, I could see myself voting for a liberal party in the future. Not for the current FDP though.
The party that is closest to my political views (65% wahl-o-mat) is the SPD. Thats why I voted for them. After all I think we should not vote for cancidates, but for content. I think the discussion this year was too much focussed on personalities and not enough on content. I hope this changes in the future, though I am not optimistic.
I also agree with Steinbrück that the SPD shouldve used the Agenda 2010 because its one of the reasons we are as economically stable atm as we are.
What the FDP really needs is to get rid of all the current heads, start anew from scratch and concentrate on their liberal roots. Sadly, some parties don't realize this unless you whack them over the head...
But having said that, should they do exactly that, then I will gladly vote for them again, and again, and again.
'concentrate on their liberal roots'. I read that - as you so succinctly say - again, and again, and again, but mostly from people who wouldn't dream about voting FDP in the first place. Strangely the party got their best result in history just four years ago, when they were by no means concentrating on liberal roots, but running on an agenda of reducing taxes and more importantly simplyfying the absurd german tax system.
If I had trusted them then, I would have voted FDP, but unsurprisingly they caved in to special interests and passed one major law, benefiting their contributors in the hotel industry.
Already campaigning under a 'liberal whatever' mantra are Greens and Pirates. If FDP wants to compete for that overestimated amount of niche voters, they can happily be my guest. It will virtually ensure we will not hear from them again.
Well, I can tell you why I voted for the FDP the last election: they were the only party I know of who had the abolishment of the Wehrdienst in their program (and that for quite some time). And that they did, together with the CDU.
I agree, they pulled a lot of crap during their time in the government (probably more crap than non-crap) and it was up to a certain degree foreseeable before the election, which is why I didn't vote for them this time (edit: and probably never will unless they make some major changes). But that one issue with the Wehrdienst was of highest priority for me, so I am definitely not regretting my vote.
On September 23 2013 20:43 Shiragaku wrote: When I was looking at the results, I was puzzled to see that the CDU, SPD, and CSU with pretty sizeable gains and The Left and Greens suffering moderate losses overall then I saw the FDP. Holy shit did they get wrecked. Is there another example of a large political party losing every single one of their seats in a parliament/diet?
Well the FDP was never considered as a "large" party. They were more like the kingmaker in the system of german parties and made coalitions with CDU and SPD in the past.
Haha, I used the word "large" in comparison to the CDU which is a "major" party and the Greens which is "minor." I guess I should've referred to them as medium sized?
Pardon my vocabulary :/
No problem But to answer your question: No, the downfall of the FDP is unique in the post-war history of the german democracy (at the federal level). At the federal state level however it's a much more common thing that parties (besides CDU/CSU and SPD) lose their seats.
Ah, that does clear some things up for me.
And quick question about the relationship between Die Linke and SPD. Is there any bad blood between them that goes back all the way to 1918?
The bad blood between Die Linke and all the other major and minor partys lies in the DDR past of Die Linke. Die Linke evolved from the SED who were some kind of the "natural" enemy of the parties in Westgermany (of course the SED has a history which goes back to the Weimarer Republik and further). And they still have a few items on their agenda (for example the dissolving of the NATO, no engagement of the Bundeswehr regardless the cause,...) which makes a coalition with the other parties impossible. Hope that helps you a bit.
SED is the result of the forced (by Soviet troops) merger of communist and socialist parties in occupied eastern Germany. It is a post WWII creation. Rest of what he writes is correct tho.
On September 23 2013 20:23 Kleinmuuhg wrote: As I am registered to vote in Bavaria chosing my votes this year was really easy again. Why would anyone sane vote for the CSU.
I disagreed with a lot the FDP did over the last few years and I certainly did not vote for them. Still I am sad that such a historic party is not in the Bundestag anymore. On paper, I could see myself voting for a liberal party in the future. Not for the current FDP though.
The party that is closest to my political views (65% wahl-o-mat) is the SPD. Thats why I voted for them. After all I think we should not vote for cancidates, but for content. I think the discussion this year was too much focussed on personalities and not enough on content. I hope this changes in the future, though I am not optimistic.
I also agree with Steinbrück that the SPD shouldve used the Agenda 2010 because its one of the reasons we are as economically stable atm as we are.
What the FDP really needs is to get rid of all the current heads, start anew from scratch and concentrate on their liberal roots. Sadly, some parties don't realize this unless you whack them over the head...
But having said that, should they do exactly that, then I will gladly vote for them again, and again, and again.
'concentrate on their liberal roots'. I read that - as you so succinctly say - again, and again, and again, but mostly from people who wouldn't dream about voting FDP in the first place. Strangely the party got their best result in history just four years ago, when they were by no means concentrating on liberal roots, but running on an agenda of reducing taxes and more importantly simplyfying the absurd german tax system.
If I had trusted them then, I would have voted FDP, but unsurprisingly they caved in to special interests and passed one major law, benefiting their contributors in the hotel industry.
Already campaigning under a 'liberal whatever' mantra are Greens and Pirates. If FDP wants to compete for that overestimated amount of niche voters, they can happily be my guest. It will virtually ensure we will not hear from them again.
I hear a similar mantra here in the U.S. from left-leaning folks. "If only Republicans were more moderate!" Then what? You'd vote for them? Lol. No.
Those people vote Democrat almost exclusively, and I chuckle whenever they think they know what the opposite party should do to attract more votes, as if they want the stronger competition. X-D
On September 23 2013 22:04 Skilledblob wrote: strong competition is what makes a democracy work, so I dont see what's so funny about that
Being in a - possibly overly - generous mood, blob, I will explain.
Democracy is about a competition of concepts to see who can present his ideas best and convince a majority.
It is not about one guy saying "Gee, my ideas are so enlightened, why doesn't every party adopt them?" Aproaching democratic competition with the second mindset is dumb as eff - which at least some people will find wildly entertaining.
On September 23 2013 20:23 Kleinmuuhg wrote: As I am registered to vote in Bavaria chosing my votes this year was really easy again. Why would anyone sane vote for the CSU.
I disagreed with a lot the FDP did over the last few years and I certainly did not vote for them. Still I am sad that such a historic party is not in the Bundestag anymore. On paper, I could see myself voting for a liberal party in the future. Not for the current FDP though.
The party that is closest to my political views (65% wahl-o-mat) is the SPD. Thats why I voted for them. After all I think we should not vote for cancidates, but for content. I think the discussion this year was too much focussed on personalities and not enough on content. I hope this changes in the future, though I am not optimistic.
I also agree with Steinbrück that the SPD shouldve used the Agenda 2010 because its one of the reasons we are as economically stable atm as we are.
What the FDP really needs is to get rid of all the current heads, start anew from scratch and concentrate on their liberal roots. Sadly, some parties don't realize this unless you whack them over the head...
But having said that, should they do exactly that, then I will gladly vote for them again, and again, and again.
'concentrate on their liberal roots'. I read that - as you so succinctly say - again, and again, and again, but mostly from people who wouldn't dream about voting FDP in the first place. Strangely the party got their best result in history just four years ago, when they were by no means concentrating on liberal roots, but running on an agenda of reducing taxes and more importantly simplyfying the absurd german tax system.
If I had trusted them then, I would have voted FDP, but unsurprisingly they caved in to special interests and passed one major law, benefiting their contributors in the hotel industry.
Already campaigning under a 'liberal whatever' mantra are Greens and Pirates. If FDP wants to compete for that overestimated amount of niche voters, they can happily be my guest. It will virtually ensure we will not hear from them again.
I hear a similar mantra here in the U.S. from left-leaning folks. "If only Republicans were more moderate!" Then what? You'd vote for them? Lol. No.
Those people vote Democrat almost exclusively, and I chuckle whenever they think they know what the opposite party should do to attract more votes, as if they want the stronger competition. X-D
To be fair the CDU would not be considered conservative in the US and Merkels result is largely based on her stealing votes from the left by the way. So I dont see the point of your statement.
On September 23 2013 22:04 Skilledblob wrote: strong competition is what makes a democracy work, so I dont see what's so funny about that
Being in a - possibly overly - generous mood, blob, I will explain.
Democracy is about a competition of concepts to see who can present his ideas best and convince a majority.
It is not about one guy saying "Gee, my ideas are so enlightened, why doesn't every party adopt them?" Aproaching democratic competition with the second mindset is dumb as eff - which at least some people will find wildly entertaining.
It's actually quite clever. Two elections now the media made the "moderates" John McCain and Mitt Romney. The base were lukewarm to these candidates but were suckered into nominating them due to the popular perception that they had the best shot. In the end the Republican party got stuck with two candidates that no one in the country really liked.
Well without the FDP its really changing the political landscape in Germany. Theres basically only the CDU/CSU on the right wing with no liberal party that kind of balances out all their conservative bullshit that comes along with them.
That's bullshit like more video surveillance in public places, weird incentives for families, discrimination of other partnership arrangements (like single parents, blended families, homosexuals) and a lot of other crap..
In fact the FDP did a bad job of balancing it out so they kinda deserve it. Therefore the right wing is now united but barely not in the majority and the left wing has the majority but is fragmented. The true enemy of the SPD is actually Die Linke. The SPD really has to reunite the left wing if they want to be successful again. (either by forming a coalition with them or win all the voters back from them)
And neither the greens nor the SPD is really interested in becoming the weak partner of a very strong CDU/CSU. They would just get crushed or they simply dont do anything in critical issues.
The last coalition with CDU/CSU and the greens in Hamburg ended up in chaos and reelections after 2 years because it didnt work out and the CDU lost a lot of voters. The last coalition with CDU/CSU and the SPD ended up with the SPD being submissive and losing a lot of voters.
So im not sure if we can find a coalition that lasts for the next 4 years or if we get reelections somewhere along the way. That would be risky too because most certainly you would get either AFD or FDP in parliament then...
On September 23 2013 20:23 Kleinmuuhg wrote: As I am registered to vote in Bavaria chosing my votes this year was really easy again. Why would anyone sane vote for the CSU.
I disagreed with a lot the FDP did over the last few years and I certainly did not vote for them. Still I am sad that such a historic party is not in the Bundestag anymore. On paper, I could see myself voting for a liberal party in the future. Not for the current FDP though.
The party that is closest to my political views (65% wahl-o-mat) is the SPD. Thats why I voted for them. After all I think we should not vote for cancidates, but for content. I think the discussion this year was too much focussed on personalities and not enough on content. I hope this changes in the future, though I am not optimistic.
I also agree with Steinbrück that the SPD shouldve used the Agenda 2010 because its one of the reasons we are as economically stable atm as we are.
What the FDP really needs is to get rid of all the current heads, start anew from scratch and concentrate on their liberal roots. Sadly, some parties don't realize this unless you whack them over the head...
But having said that, should they do exactly that, then I will gladly vote for them again, and again, and again.
'concentrate on their liberal roots'. I read that - as you so succinctly say - again, and again, and again, but mostly from people who wouldn't dream about voting FDP in the first place. Strangely the party got their best result in history just four years ago, when they were by no means concentrating on liberal roots, but running on an agenda of reducing taxes and more importantly simplyfying the absurd german tax system.
If I had trusted them then, I would have voted FDP, but unsurprisingly they caved in to special interests and passed one major law, benefiting their contributors in the hotel industry.
Already campaigning under a 'liberal whatever' mantra are Greens and Pirates. If FDP wants to compete for that overestimated amount of niche voters, they can happily be my guest. It will virtually ensure we will not hear from them again.
Well, I can tell you why I voted for the FDP the last election: they were the only party I know of who had the abolishment of the Wehrdienst in their program (and that for quite some time). And that they did, together with the CDU.
I agree, they pulled a lot of crap during their time in the government (probably more crap than non-crap) and it was up to a certain degree foreseeable before the election, which is why I didn't vote for them this time (edit: and probably never will unless they make some major changes). But that one issue with the Wehrdienst was of highest priority for me, so I am definitely not regretting my vote.
Die Grünen had the stop of Wehrdienst in their platform for a long, long time.
I can only speak for myself of course, but if the FDP would actually try to follow in Brandts and Scheels footsteps, i'd need about 5 seconds to decide what i am going to vote for.
They got slapped hard this election because over the course of the last years/(decades) they turned from a respectable social liberal party into some kind of lobbyist/neo-liberal conservative pet.
Socially/culturally liberal people are going to vote for the greens, young nerds switched over to the pirate party, market liberals switched over to the AfD.
On September 24 2013 03:35 Nyxisto wrote: I can only speak for myself of course, but if the FDP would actually try to follow in Brandts and Scheels footsteps, i'd need about 5 seconds to decide what i am going to vote for.
They got slapped hard this election because over the course of the last years/(decades) they turned from a respectable social liberal party into some kind of lobbyist/neo-liberal conservative pet.
Socially/culturally liberal people are going to vote for the greens, young nerds switched over to the pirate party, market liberals switched over to the AfD.
I am happy that the FDP is throwing arround names and faces right now because it distracts them from their real problems. That's the way that they will disappear forever, keep on going!
On September 24 2013 04:36 Influ wrote: I am happy that the FDP is throwing arround names and faces right now because it distracts them from their real problems. That's the way that they will disappear forever, keep on going!
Their only chance for survival is if there would be re-elections soon in the case of CDU/CSU not finding a coalition partner. In that case enough CDU voters would charity vote for them to push them beyond 5%, I'm afraid. I just hope the SPD doesn't poker too high with pushing their price for a grand coalition. The SPD is in a shitty spot: go for a grand coalition to stay as weak or be even weaker next election as punishment for doing the responsible thing (yeah, the public has that short of a memory) or not do anything and risk reviving the zombie party. Stuck between a rock and a hard place...
On September 23 2013 20:12 Fuzzyhead wrote: the pirates are at 2.2% see here
edit: nvm, those are not the results you are looking for, anyways they did not make the cut or any cut in that matter edit2: nvmnvm, those are the results you are looking for
I don't think that there will be re-elections. Why should there? If CDU/CSU doesn't find a coalition partner, they have to govern as a minority government, since I don't see how a coalition of Linke, SPD and Greens would work.
On September 24 2013 21:26 Encdalf wrote: I don't think that there will be re-elections. Why should there? If CDU/CSU doesn't find a coalition partner, they have to govern as a minority government, since I don't see how a coalition of Linke, SPD and Greens would work.
if they tried a minority government they'd have big problems because the CDU does not have the majority in the Bundesrat either so they would not be able to do anything. I dont think that there will be new elections. It's more likely that the SPD will cave in and do a coalition and after that they can disband the SPD at the next elections
On September 24 2013 21:26 Encdalf wrote: I don't think that there will be re-elections. Why should there? If CDU/CSU doesn't find a coalition partner, they have to govern as a minority government, since I don't see how a coalition of Linke, SPD and Greens would work.
if they tried a minority government they'd have big problems because the CDU does not have the majority in the Bundesrat either so they would not be able to do anything. I dont think that there will be new elections. It's more likely that the SPD will cave in and do a coalition and after that they can disband the SPD at the next elections
I'd agree on that. The question remaining will be how the negotiations turn out. Despite the huge success in the election, the SPD should be in a pretty strong position in this one, just because it seems to be the only possibility to prevent a new election.
EPT
But to answer your question: No, the downfall of the FDP is unique in the post-war history of the german democracy (at the federal level). At the federal state level however it's a much more common thing that parties (besides CDU/CSU and SPD) lose their seats. 
