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On September 23 2013 07:14 Perscienter wrote:
I didn't read forecasts except today where they told me basically FDP would be in not out. So I don't know where you got that number from. Forget the pirates asap.
@Yuljan: they also stress civil rights regarding private data.
and thats the thing they should have stuck to. The moment they started to diversify their programme they became ineligible.
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Juuuust poking my head in and dropping a thought or two. (at an airport with an hour to kill before my delayed flight is ready to board)
Merkel appears an awful lot like Clinton if you ask me, based on the description zatic gives. A master at politics and able to sway people to vote for them, even if they ultimately disagree with the candidate.
A publicly funded payment for parents who choose to stay at home and care for their children, aptly ridiculed by the opposition as the "kitchen premium".
I don't want to deal too much with the specific politics here, but this made me laugh at the inanity of it all, lol.
Was very intrigued to learn Germany doesn't have a minimum wage, since 2012 at least. O_o Eurostat says Germany has 5.3% unemployment, which has been steadily dropping since at least mid-2005. Wiki says this:
None; except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers. Minimum wage is often set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law.
The law states that paying a worker an "immoral wage" is illegal. There is no general consensus what constitutes "immoral" payment. One judge at a court in Krefeld, Germany, ruled that a cashier at a supermarket has to earn the equivalent of approximately 7USD per hour. The federal courts in Germany ruled that any wage lower than 75% of the average wage or salary for a specific occupation constitutes illegal payment. However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases.
Seems like a rather amorphous interpretation to me. :-\
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On September 23 2013 07:10 Yuljan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 06:59 JustPassingBy wrote:
Well, all my liberal hopes basically lie in the pirate party. I hope they grow up soon enough and establish a good structure. Liberal pirates? They are as left as you can get.
can you give 3-5 examples?
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On September 23 2013 07:42 cLAN.Anax wrote:Juuuust poking my head in and dropping a thought or two. (at an airport with an hour to kill before my delayed flight is ready to board) Merkel appears an awful lot like Clinton if you ask me, based on the description zatic gives. A master at politics and able to sway people to vote for them, even if they ultimately disagree with the candidate. Show nested quote +A publicly funded payment for parents who choose to stay at home and care for their children, aptly ridiculed by the opposition as the "kitchen premium". I don't want to deal too much with the specific politics here, but this made me laugh at the inanity of it all, lol. Was very intrigued to learn Germany doesn't have a minimum wage, since 2012 at least. O_o Eurostat says Germany has 5.3% unemployment, which has been steadily dropping since at least mid-2005. Wiki says this: Show nested quote +None; except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers. Minimum wage is often set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law.
The law states that paying a worker an "immoral wage" is illegal. There is no general consensus what constitutes "immoral" payment. One judge at a court in Krefeld, Germany, ruled that a cashier at a supermarket has to earn the equivalent of approximately 7USD per hour. The federal courts in Germany ruled that any wage lower than 75% of the average wage or salary for a specific occupation constitutes illegal payment. However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases. Seems like a rather amorphous interpretation to me. :-\
Quite a few of the jobs are jobs that are heavily substituted by the goverment and barely pay anything . Without those the unemployment would be consideribly higher.
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Not too happy with the results.
Ideologically I am pretty much an anarchist, but of course that is more an utopian dream then anything else.
Realistically this makes me kinda torn between FDP, die Linken, die Grünen and Pirates, where all of those parties fit in some areas but not others.
All of those parties had worse results then expected.
Even besides my own political opinions I would like to have as much of a pluralistic Bundestag as possible with many different ideas and solutions coming from different political camps, even from someone like the AfD, although personally I don't agree with them at all. Sure this makes the political process often very slow moving but I also think in the end it reaches the best solutions and I would just generally like to see a movement away from people strictly voting along party lines and more with their own reasoning.
Quite sad about the FDP too, but maybe it is a good thing and they refocus on liberal ideas in general in the future and not just fiscal matters with liberal markets and low taxes. Lately I kind of got the idea they only have money in their heads. In my electoral district the fell from 16.6% in 2009 to 1.9%...OUCH!
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If you just go by the Wahlomat pirates and greens have almost the exact same political agenda.
I really hoped the pirates could finish stronger. They have a lot of good ideas which they try to communicate in an acceptable (ie not totally populistic) way. I like their concepts for decision-making but as soon as they started to care for more than their niche all the potential voters dropped their support again. As I said before the way the party wants to work might clash with the structures needed if you're in parliament but it has so much more potential to get people involved.
As much as I was hoping that the fdp misses the 5% I'm now hoping that they can reinvent themselves as a truly liberal party. German SPIEGEL had a good article why that would enrich our political climate and I agree with them. + Show Spoiler +
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On September 23 2013 07:42 cLAN.Anax wrote:Juuuust poking my head in and dropping a thought or two. (at an airport with an hour to kill before my delayed flight is ready to board) Merkel appears an awful lot like Clinton if you ask me, based on the description zatic gives. A master at politics and able to sway people to vote for them, even if they ultimately disagree with the candidate. Show nested quote +A publicly funded payment for parents who choose to stay at home and care for their children, aptly ridiculed by the opposition as the "kitchen premium". I don't want to deal too much with the specific politics here, but this made me laugh at the inanity of it all, lol. Was very intrigued to learn Germany doesn't have a minimum wage, since 2012 at least. O_o Eurostat says Germany has 5.3% unemployment, which has been steadily dropping since at least mid-2005. Wiki says this: Show nested quote +None; except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers. Minimum wage is often set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law.
The law states that paying a worker an "immoral wage" is illegal. There is no general consensus what constitutes "immoral" payment. One judge at a court in Krefeld, Germany, ruled that a cashier at a supermarket has to earn the equivalent of approximately 7USD per hour. The federal courts in Germany ruled that any wage lower than 75% of the average wage or salary for a specific occupation constitutes illegal payment. However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases. Seems like a rather amorphous interpretation to me. :-\
Am I the only one who thinks that it's the union's job to bargain a minimum wage and that the politicians should keep out of it? Maybe we should think of giving the union more power, considering the current situation in the job market, but ultimatively it's the union's job to fight for the right of the employers.
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On September 23 2013 08:06 smr wrote:If you just go by the Wahlomat pirates and greens have almost the exact same political agenda. I really hoped the pirates could finish stronger. They have a lot of good ideas which they try to communicate in an acceptable (ie not totally populistic) way. I like their concepts for decision-making but as soon as they started to care for more than their niche all the potential voters dropped their support again. As I said before the way the party wants to work might clash with the structures needed if you're in parliament but it has so much more potential to get people involved. As much as I was hoping that the fdp misses the 5% I'm now hoping that they can reinvent themselves as a truly liberal party. German SPIEGEL had a good article why that would enrich our political climate and I agree with them. + Show Spoiler +
One of the problems I realized is that the German main media is never reporting about the pirate party.
I swear I got more news about their activities over reddit than over any German media...
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On September 23 2013 08:08 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 07:42 cLAN.Anax wrote:Juuuust poking my head in and dropping a thought or two. (at an airport with an hour to kill before my delayed flight is ready to board) Merkel appears an awful lot like Clinton if you ask me, based on the description zatic gives. A master at politics and able to sway people to vote for them, even if they ultimately disagree with the candidate. A publicly funded payment for parents who choose to stay at home and care for their children, aptly ridiculed by the opposition as the "kitchen premium". I don't want to deal too much with the specific politics here, but this made me laugh at the inanity of it all, lol. Was very intrigued to learn Germany doesn't have a minimum wage, since 2012 at least. O_o Eurostat says Germany has 5.3% unemployment, which has been steadily dropping since at least mid-2005. Wiki says this: None; except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers. Minimum wage is often set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law.
The law states that paying a worker an "immoral wage" is illegal. There is no general consensus what constitutes "immoral" payment. One judge at a court in Krefeld, Germany, ruled that a cashier at a supermarket has to earn the equivalent of approximately 7USD per hour. The federal courts in Germany ruled that any wage lower than 75% of the average wage or salary for a specific occupation constitutes illegal payment. However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases. Seems like a rather amorphous interpretation to me. :-\ Am I the only one who thinks that it's the union's job to bargain a minimum wage and that the politicians should keep out of it? Maybe we should think of giving the union more power, considering the current situation in the job market, but ultimatively it's the union's job to fight for the right of the employers.
Well considering the raise of "Leiharbeit" ( not sure how to correctly translate it in context ) and the well non-toleration of unionizing in quite a of those lower income workfields i don't think you can completely stay out of it.
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On September 23 2013 08:12 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 08:08 JustPassingBy wrote:On September 23 2013 07:42 cLAN.Anax wrote:Juuuust poking my head in and dropping a thought or two. (at an airport with an hour to kill before my delayed flight is ready to board) Merkel appears an awful lot like Clinton if you ask me, based on the description zatic gives. A master at politics and able to sway people to vote for them, even if they ultimately disagree with the candidate. A publicly funded payment for parents who choose to stay at home and care for their children, aptly ridiculed by the opposition as the "kitchen premium". I don't want to deal too much with the specific politics here, but this made me laugh at the inanity of it all, lol. Was very intrigued to learn Germany doesn't have a minimum wage, since 2012 at least. O_o Eurostat says Germany has 5.3% unemployment, which has been steadily dropping since at least mid-2005. Wiki says this: None; except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers. Minimum wage is often set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law.
The law states that paying a worker an "immoral wage" is illegal. There is no general consensus what constitutes "immoral" payment. One judge at a court in Krefeld, Germany, ruled that a cashier at a supermarket has to earn the equivalent of approximately 7USD per hour. The federal courts in Germany ruled that any wage lower than 75% of the average wage or salary for a specific occupation constitutes illegal payment. However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases. Seems like a rather amorphous interpretation to me. :-\ Am I the only one who thinks that it's the union's job to bargain a minimum wage and that the politicians should keep out of it? Maybe we should think of giving the union more power, considering the current situation in the job market, but ultimatively it's the union's job to fight for the right of the employers. Well considering the raise of "Leiharbeit" ( not sure how to correctly translate it in context ) and the well non-toleration of unionizing in quite a of those lower income workfields i don't think you can completely stay out of it.
Non-toleration of unionizing? That cannot be legal, can it?
Leiarbeiter should just join the same union like the other workers, then it can push the "same work, same salary" issue.
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On September 23 2013 08:08 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 07:42 cLAN.Anax wrote:Juuuust poking my head in and dropping a thought or two. (at an airport with an hour to kill before my delayed flight is ready to board) Merkel appears an awful lot like Clinton if you ask me, based on the description zatic gives. A master at politics and able to sway people to vote for them, even if they ultimately disagree with the candidate. A publicly funded payment for parents who choose to stay at home and care for their children, aptly ridiculed by the opposition as the "kitchen premium". I don't want to deal too much with the specific politics here, but this made me laugh at the inanity of it all, lol. Was very intrigued to learn Germany doesn't have a minimum wage, since 2012 at least. O_o Eurostat says Germany has 5.3% unemployment, which has been steadily dropping since at least mid-2005. Wiki says this: None; except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers. Minimum wage is often set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law.
The law states that paying a worker an "immoral wage" is illegal. There is no general consensus what constitutes "immoral" payment. One judge at a court in Krefeld, Germany, ruled that a cashier at a supermarket has to earn the equivalent of approximately 7USD per hour. The federal courts in Germany ruled that any wage lower than 75% of the average wage or salary for a specific occupation constitutes illegal payment. However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases. Seems like a rather amorphous interpretation to me. :-\ Am I the only one who thinks that it's the union's job to bargain a minimum wage and that the politicians should keep out of it? Maybe we should think of giving the union more power, considering the current situation in the job market, but ultimatively it's the union's job to fight for the right of the employers.
If they don't make whatever they agree upon into law, I'd be cool with it too.
National Review is calling the AfD a German version of the Tea Party. Lol? (link: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/359145/germanys-tea-party-john-fund )
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On September 23 2013 07:14 Perscienter wrote:
I didn't read forecasts except today where they told me basically FDP would be in not out. So I don't know where you got that number from. Forget the pirates asap.
@Yuljan: they also stress civil rights regarding private data.
FDP is out of parliament afaik?
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On September 23 2013 08:13 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 08:12 s3rp wrote:On September 23 2013 08:08 JustPassingBy wrote:On September 23 2013 07:42 cLAN.Anax wrote:Juuuust poking my head in and dropping a thought or two. (at an airport with an hour to kill before my delayed flight is ready to board) Merkel appears an awful lot like Clinton if you ask me, based on the description zatic gives. A master at politics and able to sway people to vote for them, even if they ultimately disagree with the candidate. A publicly funded payment for parents who choose to stay at home and care for their children, aptly ridiculed by the opposition as the "kitchen premium". I don't want to deal too much with the specific politics here, but this made me laugh at the inanity of it all, lol. Was very intrigued to learn Germany doesn't have a minimum wage, since 2012 at least. O_o Eurostat says Germany has 5.3% unemployment, which has been steadily dropping since at least mid-2005. Wiki says this: None; except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers. Minimum wage is often set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law.
The law states that paying a worker an "immoral wage" is illegal. There is no general consensus what constitutes "immoral" payment. One judge at a court in Krefeld, Germany, ruled that a cashier at a supermarket has to earn the equivalent of approximately 7USD per hour. The federal courts in Germany ruled that any wage lower than 75% of the average wage or salary for a specific occupation constitutes illegal payment. However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases. Seems like a rather amorphous interpretation to me. :-\ Am I the only one who thinks that it's the union's job to bargain a minimum wage and that the politicians should keep out of it? Maybe we should think of giving the union more power, considering the current situation in the job market, but ultimatively it's the union's job to fight for the right of the employers. Well considering the raise of "Leiharbeit" ( not sure how to correctly translate it in context ) and the well non-toleration of unionizing in quite a of those lower income workfields i don't think you can completely stay out of it. Non-toleration of unionizing? That cannot be legal, can it?
It's not technically BUT the people working in those fields don't have the means to change anything and nothing has really been done so far . I mean most of the people in those workfields don't have a permanent position and can basically fired on the spot without repercusion . And good luck proving you've been fired for trying to unionize. Those people most of the time badly need the money they can't risk their daily job .
There was a something about "Leiharbeiter" at DHL a few months back ( maybe more ) where a reporter got undercover in as a postman. He got considerably less then the guys actually working at DHL ( almost half IRC ) while working more time and having to do unpaid overtime . The second he mentioned unionizing he got an extremely fierce warning about that . The second time he mentioned it he was fired ( he did it on purpose because he was done physically after a few weeks of backbracking work ). At least thats how i remember it.
Edit : I found it , from 2011.
+ Show Spoiler +
It's German btw
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On September 23 2013 08:18 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 08:13 JustPassingBy wrote:On September 23 2013 08:12 s3rp wrote:On September 23 2013 08:08 JustPassingBy wrote:On September 23 2013 07:42 cLAN.Anax wrote:Juuuust poking my head in and dropping a thought or two. (at an airport with an hour to kill before my delayed flight is ready to board) Merkel appears an awful lot like Clinton if you ask me, based on the description zatic gives. A master at politics and able to sway people to vote for them, even if they ultimately disagree with the candidate. A publicly funded payment for parents who choose to stay at home and care for their children, aptly ridiculed by the opposition as the "kitchen premium". I don't want to deal too much with the specific politics here, but this made me laugh at the inanity of it all, lol. Was very intrigued to learn Germany doesn't have a minimum wage, since 2012 at least. O_o Eurostat says Germany has 5.3% unemployment, which has been steadily dropping since at least mid-2005. Wiki says this: None; except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers. Minimum wage is often set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law.
The law states that paying a worker an "immoral wage" is illegal. There is no general consensus what constitutes "immoral" payment. One judge at a court in Krefeld, Germany, ruled that a cashier at a supermarket has to earn the equivalent of approximately 7USD per hour. The federal courts in Germany ruled that any wage lower than 75% of the average wage or salary for a specific occupation constitutes illegal payment. However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases. Seems like a rather amorphous interpretation to me. :-\ Am I the only one who thinks that it's the union's job to bargain a minimum wage and that the politicians should keep out of it? Maybe we should think of giving the union more power, considering the current situation in the job market, but ultimatively it's the union's job to fight for the right of the employers. Well considering the raise of "Leiharbeit" ( not sure how to correctly translate it in context ) and the well non-toleration of unionizing in quite a of those lower income workfields i don't think you can completely stay out of it. Non-toleration of unionizing? That cannot be legal, can it? It's not technically BUT the people working in those fields don't have the means to change anything and nothing has really been done so far . I mean most of the people in those workfields don't have a permanent position and can basically fired on the spot without repercusion . And good luck proving you've been fired for trying to unionize. Those people most of the time badly need the money they can't risk their daily job . There was a something about "Leiharbeiter" at DHL a few months back ( maybe more ) where a reporter got undercover in as a postman. He got considerably less then the guys actually working at DHL ( almost half IRC ) while working more time and having to do unpaid overtime . The second he mentioned unionizing he got an extremely fierce warning about that . The second time he mentioned it he was fired ( he did it on purpose because he was done physically after a few weeks of backbracking work ). At least thats how i remember it. Edit : I found it , from 2011. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-Qh8vtyhnw It's German btw
So why don't you just either:
a) force everybody to be part of some union (like with health insurance) (more restrictive, I don't like this option)
or
b) every contract signed with a unionless employee has to be signed with the biggest union amongst the other employees (the one who the majority of the employees belong to).
These are just two random suggestion I cam up with in 2min, ofc.
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On September 23 2013 08:55 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 08:18 s3rp wrote:On September 23 2013 08:13 JustPassingBy wrote:On September 23 2013 08:12 s3rp wrote:On September 23 2013 08:08 JustPassingBy wrote:On September 23 2013 07:42 cLAN.Anax wrote:Juuuust poking my head in and dropping a thought or two. (at an airport with an hour to kill before my delayed flight is ready to board) Merkel appears an awful lot like Clinton if you ask me, based on the description zatic gives. A master at politics and able to sway people to vote for them, even if they ultimately disagree with the candidate. A publicly funded payment for parents who choose to stay at home and care for their children, aptly ridiculed by the opposition as the "kitchen premium". I don't want to deal too much with the specific politics here, but this made me laugh at the inanity of it all, lol. Was very intrigued to learn Germany doesn't have a minimum wage, since 2012 at least. O_o Eurostat says Germany has 5.3% unemployment, which has been steadily dropping since at least mid-2005. Wiki says this: None; except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers. Minimum wage is often set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law.
The law states that paying a worker an "immoral wage" is illegal. There is no general consensus what constitutes "immoral" payment. One judge at a court in Krefeld, Germany, ruled that a cashier at a supermarket has to earn the equivalent of approximately 7USD per hour. The federal courts in Germany ruled that any wage lower than 75% of the average wage or salary for a specific occupation constitutes illegal payment. However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases. Seems like a rather amorphous interpretation to me. :-\ Am I the only one who thinks that it's the union's job to bargain a minimum wage and that the politicians should keep out of it? Maybe we should think of giving the union more power, considering the current situation in the job market, but ultimatively it's the union's job to fight for the right of the employers. Well considering the raise of "Leiharbeit" ( not sure how to correctly translate it in context ) and the well non-toleration of unionizing in quite a of those lower income workfields i don't think you can completely stay out of it. Non-toleration of unionizing? That cannot be legal, can it? It's not technically BUT the people working in those fields don't have the means to change anything and nothing has really been done so far . I mean most of the people in those workfields don't have a permanent position and can basically fired on the spot without repercusion . And good luck proving you've been fired for trying to unionize. Those people most of the time badly need the money they can't risk their daily job . There was a something about "Leiharbeiter" at DHL a few months back ( maybe more ) where a reporter got undercover in as a postman. He got considerably less then the guys actually working at DHL ( almost half IRC ) while working more time and having to do unpaid overtime . The second he mentioned unionizing he got an extremely fierce warning about that . The second time he mentioned it he was fired ( he did it on purpose because he was done physically after a few weeks of backbracking work ). At least thats how i remember it. Edit : I found it , from 2011. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-Qh8vtyhnw It's German btw So why don't you just either: a) force everybody to be part of some union (like with health insurance) (more restrictive, I don't like this option) or b) every contract signed with a unionless employee has to be signed with the biggest union amongst the other employees (the one who the majority of the employees belong to). These are just two random suggestion I cam up with in 2min, ofc.
Well, you wanted the politicians out of the wage finding process, didn't you?
But, these are two laws you are proposing! (And both arguably more restrictive than a simple lower limit on salary.)
Union members have to pay their union fee. You want to force people to pay for something by law, you better have a good justification for it.
Also, I personally don't really get this "keep out the politicians" sentiment on this one issue. I mean, rules and laws determine every aspects in life and business. Politicians set the business tax, the subsidiaries, the income tax, health insurance, working conditions, equality hiring and on and on.
So, why this sudden outcry when it comes to minimum wage?
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On September 23 2013 10:00 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 08:55 JustPassingBy wrote:On September 23 2013 08:18 s3rp wrote:On September 23 2013 08:13 JustPassingBy wrote:On September 23 2013 08:12 s3rp wrote:On September 23 2013 08:08 JustPassingBy wrote:On September 23 2013 07:42 cLAN.Anax wrote:Juuuust poking my head in and dropping a thought or two. (at an airport with an hour to kill before my delayed flight is ready to board) Merkel appears an awful lot like Clinton if you ask me, based on the description zatic gives. A master at politics and able to sway people to vote for them, even if they ultimately disagree with the candidate. A publicly funded payment for parents who choose to stay at home and care for their children, aptly ridiculed by the opposition as the "kitchen premium". I don't want to deal too much with the specific politics here, but this made me laugh at the inanity of it all, lol. Was very intrigued to learn Germany doesn't have a minimum wage, since 2012 at least. O_o Eurostat says Germany has 5.3% unemployment, which has been steadily dropping since at least mid-2005. Wiki says this: None; except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers. Minimum wage is often set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law.
The law states that paying a worker an "immoral wage" is illegal. There is no general consensus what constitutes "immoral" payment. One judge at a court in Krefeld, Germany, ruled that a cashier at a supermarket has to earn the equivalent of approximately 7USD per hour. The federal courts in Germany ruled that any wage lower than 75% of the average wage or salary for a specific occupation constitutes illegal payment. However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases. Seems like a rather amorphous interpretation to me. :-\ Am I the only one who thinks that it's the union's job to bargain a minimum wage and that the politicians should keep out of it? Maybe we should think of giving the union more power, considering the current situation in the job market, but ultimatively it's the union's job to fight for the right of the employers. Well considering the raise of "Leiharbeit" ( not sure how to correctly translate it in context ) and the well non-toleration of unionizing in quite a of those lower income workfields i don't think you can completely stay out of it. Non-toleration of unionizing? That cannot be legal, can it? It's not technically BUT the people working in those fields don't have the means to change anything and nothing has really been done so far . I mean most of the people in those workfields don't have a permanent position and can basically fired on the spot without repercusion . And good luck proving you've been fired for trying to unionize. Those people most of the time badly need the money they can't risk their daily job . There was a something about "Leiharbeiter" at DHL a few months back ( maybe more ) where a reporter got undercover in as a postman. He got considerably less then the guys actually working at DHL ( almost half IRC ) while working more time and having to do unpaid overtime . The second he mentioned unionizing he got an extremely fierce warning about that . The second time he mentioned it he was fired ( he did it on purpose because he was done physically after a few weeks of backbracking work ). At least thats how i remember it. Edit : I found it , from 2011. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-Qh8vtyhnw It's German btw So why don't you just either: a) force everybody to be part of some union (like with health insurance) (more restrictive, I don't like this option) or b) every contract signed with a unionless employee has to be signed with the biggest union amongst the other employees (the one who the majority of the employees belong to). These are just two random suggestion I cam up with in 2min, ofc. Well, you wanted the politicians out of the wage finding process, didn't you? But, these are two laws you are proposing! (And both arguably more restrictive than a simple lower limit on salary.) Union members have to pay their union fee. You want to force people to pay for something by law, you better have a good justification for it. Also, I personally don't really get this "keep out the politicians" sentiment on this one issue. I mean, rules and laws determine every aspects in life and business. Politicians set the business tax, the subsidiaries, the income tax, health insurance, working conditions, equality hiring and on and on. So, why this sudden outcry when it comes to minimum wage?
Can't speak for JustPassingBy, but for myself, I take issue not only with government intervention on the minimum wage, but with a majority of the subjects you list (income tax, "equality hiring," etc.). It's not just the minimum wage thing that we'd discuss political intervention on, but it's the one we happen to be specifically talking about right now.
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By the way, I cannot believe how shocked the FDP members were. I mean, how far from reality are they?
Wasn't the result already conceivable from the polls? I'm sure they were aware of it?
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On September 23 2013 10:00 lord_nibbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 08:55 JustPassingBy wrote:On September 23 2013 08:18 s3rp wrote:On September 23 2013 08:13 JustPassingBy wrote:On September 23 2013 08:12 s3rp wrote:On September 23 2013 08:08 JustPassingBy wrote:On September 23 2013 07:42 cLAN.Anax wrote:Juuuust poking my head in and dropping a thought or two. (at an airport with an hour to kill before my delayed flight is ready to board) Merkel appears an awful lot like Clinton if you ask me, based on the description zatic gives. A master at politics and able to sway people to vote for them, even if they ultimately disagree with the candidate. A publicly funded payment for parents who choose to stay at home and care for their children, aptly ridiculed by the opposition as the "kitchen premium". I don't want to deal too much with the specific politics here, but this made me laugh at the inanity of it all, lol. Was very intrigued to learn Germany doesn't have a minimum wage, since 2012 at least. O_o Eurostat says Germany has 5.3% unemployment, which has been steadily dropping since at least mid-2005. Wiki says this: None; except for construction workers, electrical workers, janitors, roofers, painters, and letter carriers. Minimum wage is often set by collective bargaining agreements in other sectors of the economy and enforceable by law.
The law states that paying a worker an "immoral wage" is illegal. There is no general consensus what constitutes "immoral" payment. One judge at a court in Krefeld, Germany, ruled that a cashier at a supermarket has to earn the equivalent of approximately 7USD per hour. The federal courts in Germany ruled that any wage lower than 75% of the average wage or salary for a specific occupation constitutes illegal payment. However, since there is no well defined legal minimum wage as of February 2013, courts are usually the ones who have the final say and will only rule for individual cases. Seems like a rather amorphous interpretation to me. :-\ Am I the only one who thinks that it's the union's job to bargain a minimum wage and that the politicians should keep out of it? Maybe we should think of giving the union more power, considering the current situation in the job market, but ultimatively it's the union's job to fight for the right of the employers. Well considering the raise of "Leiharbeit" ( not sure how to correctly translate it in context ) and the well non-toleration of unionizing in quite a of those lower income workfields i don't think you can completely stay out of it. Non-toleration of unionizing? That cannot be legal, can it? It's not technically BUT the people working in those fields don't have the means to change anything and nothing has really been done so far . I mean most of the people in those workfields don't have a permanent position and can basically fired on the spot without repercusion . And good luck proving you've been fired for trying to unionize. Those people most of the time badly need the money they can't risk their daily job . There was a something about "Leiharbeiter" at DHL a few months back ( maybe more ) where a reporter got undercover in as a postman. He got considerably less then the guys actually working at DHL ( almost half IRC ) while working more time and having to do unpaid overtime . The second he mentioned unionizing he got an extremely fierce warning about that . The second time he mentioned it he was fired ( he did it on purpose because he was done physically after a few weeks of backbracking work ). At least thats how i remember it. Edit : I found it , from 2011. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-Qh8vtyhnw It's German btw So why don't you just either: a) force everybody to be part of some union (like with health insurance) (more restrictive, I don't like this option) or b) every contract signed with a unionless employee has to be signed with the biggest union amongst the other employees (the one who the majority of the employees belong to). These are just two random suggestion I cam up with in 2min, ofc. Well, you wanted the politicians out of the wage finding process, didn't you? But, these are two laws you are proposing! (And both arguably more restrictive than a simple lower limit on salary.) Union members have to pay their union fee. You want to force people to pay for something by law, you better have a good justification for it. Also, I personally don't really get this "keep out the politicians" sentiment on this one issue. I mean, rules and laws determine every aspects in life and business. Politicians set the business tax, the subsidiaries, the income tax, health insurance, working conditions, equality hiring and on and on. So, why this sudden outcry when it comes to minimum wage?
Yes, but there is a difference between a law that draws a hard line (which might definitely needs adjusting in the future) and a law which declares part of the public responsible and give them the power they need to satisfy that responsibility.
In the minimum wage scenario, the minimum wage needs to be continuously adjusted to inflation so the politicians have to repeatedly occupy themselves with that topic. In the other scenaio, the union will have to deal with it together with the employer. It's basically giving somebody fish vs. teaching them how to fish and giving them the proper tools to do so.
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On September 23 2013 16:35 JustPassingBy wrote:
By the way, I cannot believe how shocked the FDP members were. I mean, how far from reality are they?
Wasn't the result already conceivable from the polls? I'm sure they were aware of it?
This has 2 parts:
First the FDP was always in the parliament since WW2 and has the most years as part of the government (49). Its like a very old Football club going to league 2.
Second almost all of the people you see at these election parties are employed by the government because they are in the FDP, which means they lost their jobs because they did poorly and didn´t make the 5% cut.
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On September 23 2013 08:13 JustPassingBy wrote:
Non-toleration of unionizing? That cannot be legal, can it?
Leiarbeiter should just join the same union like the other workers, then it can push the "same work, same salary" issue.
It's definitely not legal, but like it was already mentioned it does happen a lot and people are way too scared to try to act. In several parts of the country it's a lot safer to just swallow shitty working conditions in the hope to change jobs, rather than trying to fight against your employer. In a best case scenario you'll get 4-5 months worth of wages, but you still end up unemployed, while the company won't really change their ways. I do know a lot of examples from my area (Nordbayern), this is especially cruel in the Automobilzuliefererindustrie.
Also, for your proposal about a forced entry of the union - iirc - is not doable, because it'd hurt the articles about 'positive und negative Koalitionsfreiheit'. Furthermore, a lot of organisations run by the church (especially catholics) have special rules. They might fire you for different reasons, they don't have to have a 'Betriebsrat' and so on and so forth. How and why this is still tolerated I can not understand.
If you speak about Leiharbeiter you should take reality into account. I wouldn't know how bad their situation was, if it wasn't for me having done some Ferienjobs in the aforementioned industry. It's horrible. They have to work like shit, they get paid bad, they have to drive for ages, are most times hated (because they tend to scare the shit out of the 'real' employees - job security and such) and end up being exploited. The basic idea might have been great, but it ended up being a tool to hire cheap labor on a temporary basis. I know about cases where they forced these kind of people to become a "Streikbrecher" - obviously, they could just point out that this was illegal, too, but hey, if you want a real job somewhen, you better do what the company tells you. This topic goes on and on and has way more dimensions to it. Companys start to hire people and try to circumvent the Kündigungsschutz by inventing companies within companies. Bleh.
What disappoints me the most is how people, especially the eldery, read on these topics and still vote for queen Merkel. They tend up hating what goes on, but think she's the lesser evil so to speak. Holy...
At least the FDP is gone now. That's great.
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EPT
