So today we had the crowd in Dallas booing various things. Mostly terran medivacs. I won't get into the balance issues which may, or may not exist.
But I can't believe how butt hurt the reddit and TL communities got over this - It's like people don't even understand what a sport is. If you go to football, soccer, pro wrestling, UFC, anything.. People cheer, and people boo. There are heroes, and there are heels, and the crowd decided at this event that the terran domination made terran players the heels.
A truly passionate crowd expresses a full range of emotion! You can cheer, you can boo, you can clap, you can start chants. This occurs in every sport everywhere in the world and the sportscasters would NEVER dare to be so presumptuous as to tell the crowd how to feel or behave. This is what makes sports great - the raw, real human expression that is drawn out by the events in the games. You don't mess with that. The crowd picked a side - and that side was the home team. You don't demand the crowd to cheer for both sides because they're so great, you don't pretend everyone is best friends.
Day9 honestly sounded like a kindergarten teacher tonight, ready to hand out gold star stickers to everybody just for playing along! And that just isn't sport, it isn't esport, it isn't even MLG.
Just my two cents - If you want esport to be taken seriously, we can't go around holding people's hands and trying not to hurt their feelings. People get hurt in sports, that's part of the glory.
I disagree completely. The fact that Day9 went as far as to tell the crowd to not boo indicates that it was getting out of hand. Frankly, it was disgusting that Flash of all players got boo'd. Competition is important to the scene and prevents stagnation since every player will practice his heart out to try and surpass the rest. On top of that, it's one thing if all Terran players abused medivac speed but in the specific booing incident, Flash didn't use them anywhere close to Innovation. That and Heyoka said that it wasn't from SCII but won't go into much details since I dunno more than that.
PS I don't really care for 'esports'. I care for the players and to see the game move forward with more strategies, gain more fans and such.
Pro starcraft in Korea has a long history and I can't remember ever seeing a crowd boo. It would be considered very disrespectful. So to invite Korean pros over and boo while they are playing is pretty uncomfortable to watch. If you're going to compare current SC2 to any sport, it's closest relative would be BW, and crowds did not boo players as far as I know.
I was there, I was in the crowd, cheering my head off all night long for everyone and everything. There was booing, and it was most definitely from the SC2 crowd. HOWEVER, it had nothing to do with Flash, and everything to do with Medivacs and Widow mines. There might have been a total of 8 people booing, honestly, and they booed like 3 times (?) maybe. Everyone freaking out about people booing "one of the best RTSers in history" and how disgusting it was to boo a player and show that much disrespect wasn't paying attention to the massive cheers for both players going on the entire game and the even more monumental cheers after the game for Flash and Ret.
No one booed Flash. End of story. After a huge gap in games to watch the crowd had a lot of pent up energy and a lot of pent up frustration watching Terran after Terran abuse the shit out of widow/bio and medivac harass and trolled by booing when Flash's medivacs got away and cheering when Ret sniped them down.
Being in the crowd, I can tell you that 95% of the people there turned around and were essentially saying "wtf guys?" when those select few chose to boo because no, it isn't cool or ok, EVER imo. You should respect the players and remain positive, and basically everyone did, and the booers fell back into line and kept cheering their heads off with the rest of us, louder than the average probably. Regardless of the fact that the booing was actually quite friendly and trolly in nature, it was unnecessary and they should have just cheered harder when Ret managed to do what seemed impossible and hold off the drops and widow mines instead of appearing to be haters and biased.
TL;DR Either you accept that the booing was at Terrans imba-ness (alleged imba-ness I should say) and so forgive the few that did boo but maintain that they should not have done it, or you accept that booing just isn't a big deal and don't give a shit what it was directed at or who did. Otherwise you're just stirring up drama and controversy where there is none.
Is booing at a perceived imbalanced reasonable? I think the foreign community as a whole needs to lighten up about imbalances. They will always exist and it is fine to discuss them, but foreigners generally go way out of control in their rage about it. Why not instead celebrate the players who do well even in the face of imbalance? Anger does not need to be the prevailing emotion.
I've went to many live sport games with large rowdy crowds. I've done my own share of booing whether because refs were biased or made unfair calls, players being unsportsmanship like, or other things that would poison the merit and integrity of the game.
But this event was different. This event had nothing like the reasons mentioned. People were booing because of something that was by design in the game used by one of the best players in the world. People were booing because a race was doing better than the rest. People were booing because someone or some group was doing well. You don't do that. You boo when someone or some group isn't playing well or how it's supposed to be.
Day9 was like a Kindergarten teacher because the audience was acting like Kindergartens. Whatever you believe, you can't deny that it definitely left a bad vibe on the audience and the event. Saving grace was the late night audience.
On March 17 2013 16:32 darkscream wrote:Just my two cents - If you want esport to be taken seriously, we can't go around holding people's hands and trying not to hurt their feelings. People get hurt in sports, that's part of the glory.
Likewise, if you want to take esports seriously, then people shouldn't get emotional about what's designed into the game and being used by players extremely well. People get hurt in sports true, but people in that audience got hurt because someone or some group was playing well. People got hurt by the game itself. I guess that's another reason why esports can be inferior to rest of the sports: People can hate the game itself.
That's my 2 cents. I look forward tomorrow as the audience get exposed to more Terrans and their use of Medivacs. Will the few in the audience become stupid and further poison the atmosphere? We'll see.
On March 17 2013 18:21 BirdKiller wrote: I've went to many live sport games with large rowdy crowds. I've done my own share of booing whether because refs were biased or made unfair calls, players being unsportsmanship like, or other things that would poison the merit and integrity of the game.
But this event was different. This event had nothing like the reasons mentioned. People were booing because of something that was by design in the game used by one of the best players in the world. People were booing because a race was doing better than the rest. People were booing because someone or some group was doing well. You don't do that. You boo when someone or some group isn't playing well or how it's supposed to be.
Day9 was like a Kindergarten teacher because the audience was acting like Kindergartens. Whatever you believe, you can't deny that it definitely left a bad vibe on the audience and the event. Saving grace was the late night audience.
Likewise, if you want to take esports seriously, then people shouldn't get emotional about what's designed into the game and being used by players extremely well. People get hurt in sports true, but people in that audience got hurt because someone or some group was playing well. People got hurt by the game itself. I guess that's another reason why esports can be inferior to rest of the sports: People can hate the game itself.
That's my 2 cents. I look forward tomorrow as the audience get exposed to more Terrans and their use of Medivacs. Will the few in the audience become stupid and further poison the atmosphere? We'll see.
You serious?
Don't know what sports you've been watching, but if you're barracking for one guy, you boo the other guy most of the time. If someone does something within the rules of the game but its cheap or overpowered, damn right they'll get booed.
If they crowd decides they're sick of something, they will disapprove of it happening again. Happens in every sport.
English premier league crowds boo their rival teams, happens across multiple other sports as well. One that gets very heated is State of Origin (you'll probably only know about this if you're from Australia/NZ)
One team simply running onto the pitch is reason to boo the hell out of them.
Its a sport, yes, but it doesn't have the reputation of Golf or anything, where silence is expected. I watched the last game of the night and it was awesome.
On March 17 2013 18:21 BirdKiller wrote: I've went to many live sport games with large rowdy crowds. I've done my own share of booing whether because refs were biased or made unfair calls, players being unsportsmanship like, or other things that would poison the merit and integrity of the game.
But this event was different. This event had nothing like the reasons mentioned. People were booing because of something that was by design in the game used by one of the best players in the world. People were booing because a race was doing better than the rest. People were booing because someone or some group was doing well. You don't do that. You boo when someone or some group isn't playing well or how it's supposed to be.
Day9 was like a Kindergarten teacher because the audience was acting like Kindergartens. Whatever you believe, you can't deny that it definitely left a bad vibe on the audience and the event. Saving grace was the late night audience.
Likewise, if you want to take esports seriously, then people shouldn't get emotional about what's designed into the game and being used by players extremely well. People get hurt in sports true, but people in that audience got hurt because someone or some group was playing well. People got hurt by the game itself. I guess that's another reason why esports can be inferior to rest of the sports: People can hate the game itself.
That's my 2 cents. I look forward tomorrow as the audience get exposed to more Terrans and their use of Medivacs. Will the few in the audience become stupid and further poison the atmosphere? We'll see.
You serious?
Don't know what sports you've been watching, but if you're barracking for one guy, you boo the other guy most of the time. If someone does something within the rules of the game but its cheap or overpowered, damn right they'll get booed.
If they crowd decides they're sick of something, they will disapprove of it happening again. Happens in every sport.
English premier league crowds boo their rival teams, happens across multiple other sports as well. One that gets very heated is State of Origin (you'll probably only know about this if you're from Australia/NZ)
One team simply running onto the pitch is reason to boo the hell out of them.
Its a sport, yes, but it doesn't have the reputation of Golf or anything, where silence is expected. I watched the last game of the night and it was awesome.
That's like booing on someone in a competitive sport because he isn't handing over the ball to his opponent instead of beating him in the game to make the game more even when he is clearly the better player. It's NOT like booing because you are playing against a team from another city or country, but even if it was, this is also incredibly stupid and shouldn't be something to copy.
The people booing are stupid, because they don't get what competitive Starcraft is about and how good and dedicated these korean terrans are. There is no justification and no reasonable explanation for booing, it's that simple. It's just a stupid act of showing how stupid you are to everyone else. It's monkey behavior.
Crowds of people are really dumb. We get all caught up in the moment and that stupid mentality takes over. Normally, I'm all for not limiting expression, but this seems more like subversion to me. The only time I think booing would be acceptable is when a tournament gets messed up due to blizzard not including LAN. Perhaps the difference is about intention as well, in starcraft 2 non mirror matchups, the rules are asymmetric unlike most conventional sports. When you boo someone for playing with a set of rules you consider cheap, it detracts from their accomplishments.
From a stream viewer's point of view the booing was loud as fuck, and was funny once, and then it got real old and really insulting. Good thing the booths are sound proof. Why don't people chant "nerf medivacs" or say something intelligible instead of howling like monkeys.
On March 17 2013 21:14 mizU wrote: From a stream viewer's point of view the booing was loud as fuck, and was funny once, and then it got real old and really insulting. Good thing the booths are sound proof. Why don't people chant "nerf medivacs" or say something intelligible instead of howling like monkeys.
I wondered why the sound guys didn't turn down the crowd even. I actually found it really hard at some points to even understand the casters because the crowd noise was just so in your face.
Starcraft is neither Football, where booing is a part of every single match all the time, nor is it Tennis, where you will never hear even a single soul boo, unless someone shows bad sportsmanship.
But the constant 90-minute chanting, booing, cheering, cursing and screaming of a football match with a full stadium of 80.000 people going back and forth each time the ball is in posession of the other team is so damn mesmerizing. Starcraft fans aren't elites, starcraft fans are everywhere and if they want to boo at a situation, a person or a move, then they absolutely should, unless they don't succumb to vandalism, violence and destruction, which also ruins football. But honest fans showing their appreciation and disapproval, by cheering or booing at whatever it is, is just fine and a normal thing you see in sports overall more often than not.
I can only feel sorry for you OP. Booing is inacceptable. Even in soccer the audience usually doesn't boo unless its bad sportsmanship or one player really being hated for what he does/did. Flash didn't do anything but play his game. Booing him is completely inacceptable and retarded. You can pick your home team and cheer for it, but you better be respectful towards the opponent.
I hope MLG steps it up and eventually steps in when it happens again even so far as to ban the crowd there.
On March 17 2013 18:21 BirdKiller wrote: I've went to many live sport games with large rowdy crowds. I've done my own share of booing whether because refs were biased or made unfair calls, players being unsportsmanship like, or other things that would poison the merit and integrity of the game.
But this event was different. This event had nothing like the reasons mentioned. People were booing because of something that was by design in the game used by one of the best players in the world. People were booing because a race was doing better than the rest. People were booing because someone or some group was doing well. You don't do that. You boo when someone or some group isn't playing well or how it's supposed to be.
Day9 was like a Kindergarten teacher because the audience was acting like Kindergartens. Whatever you believe, you can't deny that it definitely left a bad vibe on the audience and the event. Saving grace was the late night audience.
Likewise, if you want to take esports seriously, then people shouldn't get emotional about what's designed into the game and being used by players extremely well. People get hurt in sports true, but people in that audience got hurt because someone or some group was playing well. People got hurt by the game itself. I guess that's another reason why esports can be inferior to rest of the sports: People can hate the game itself.
That's my 2 cents. I look forward tomorrow as the audience get exposed to more Terrans and their use of Medivacs. Will the few in the audience become stupid and further poison the atmosphere? We'll see.
You serious?
Don't know what sports you've been watching, but if you're barracking for one guy, you boo the other guy most of the time. If someone does something within the rules of the game but its cheap or overpowered, damn right they'll get booed.
If they crowd decides they're sick of something, they will disapprove of it happening again. Happens in every sport.
English premier league crowds boo their rival teams, happens across multiple other sports as well. One that gets very heated is State of Origin (you'll probably only know about this if you're from Australia/NZ)
One team simply running onto the pitch is reason to boo the hell out of them.
Its a sport, yes, but it doesn't have the reputation of Golf or anything, where silence is expected. I watched the last game of the night and it was awesome.
Flash did nothing cheap that deserved booing. In every game (or nearly every game) he opened CC first after scouting Ret's hatch first and outmacroed / outplayed him fair and straight. If the crowd wanted to boo the terran / medivac I can understand it, but those games and that player were not the place / moment to do it.
It felt like a basketball audience in a foreign country booing Michael Jordan because they actually have no idea who the guy is, while Jordan is dunking and shooting 3 points during the whole game.
Remind me again why we are using American sport spectators as a litmus test of what is appropriate? Isn't our average IQ as a community like 20-30 points higher than them? Can't we exhibit a bit more class?
It depends on the context and what the players are used to. In something like SPL finals, I'd say booing is fine. In something much more intimate like this, it isn't.
On March 17 2013 23:12 Jibba wrote: It depends on the context and what the players are used to. In something like SPL finals, I'd say booing is fine. In something much more intimate like this, it isn't.
How is booing fine because its a bigger stage? Thats beyond me
Booing is never acceptable I'm sorry. It happens, but it's not acceptable. It's completely disrespectful. I'm not a sport expert but most of the booing happens in team sports such as football and never (or very rarely) happens in individual sports such as tennis. Starcraft for the most part is an individual "sport" so I don't see the difference
I simply liken SC2 to tennis or golf, you will very rarely hear boos in those sports because they are individual sports and not team sports. If you booed at a player at the Wimbledon final without a very good reason (they sometimes boo when it rains etc) then you would be told to be quiet and if you did it again you would be ejected.
I'm fine with booing for a joke, or because play had to stop because of a dc etc. but booing players or strategies is stupid.
For individual sports like Tennis, it's usually not a good thing. For team sports like basketball or football, it's a cool thing to do. Individual sports is just too intimate, one player against 10k people, that's intimidating to one player. One team against 50k people, it's not a big deal.
On March 17 2013 23:12 Jibba wrote: It depends on the context and what the players are used to. In something like SPL finals, I'd say booing is fine. In something much more intimate like this, it isn't.
How is booing fine because its a bigger stage? Thats beyond me
I think he was trying to point out the difference between team and individual sports.
You just have to show respect to anyone - let alone Flash - may there be balance issues or not. It is also representative of the SC2 crowd. I just hope Flash didn't hear that.
Was watching the game on the stream, It was extremely obnoxious and disgusting tbh, and one could barely hear the casters over the crowd booing. If you want to support ur player then cheer but dont be negative and boo the other guy.
On March 17 2013 23:59 emanresU wrote: You just have to show respect to anyone - let alone Flash - may there be balance issues or not. It is also representative of the SC2 crowd. I just hope Flash didn't hear that.
Did NO ONE see the end of the fucking match? Flash exited the booth to tumultuous cheers and chants of "FLASH FLASH FLASH". The boos stopped pretty quickly, were not malicious in intention or directed to Flash specifically, AND the few people who booed rejoined the cheering right away. I highly doubt that Flash heard any of it, and if he did it was probably forgotten after the standing ovation he received post-winning.
Trust me, the stream's perception of the situation is grossly out of proportion to the reality of what happened.
I actually was gonna write a blog about this topic this morning. During the flash vs ret series, fans were booing, I suppose flash, and day9 told them to shut up. I think booing is ok because it just shows passion of fans which is pretty cool/needed. It happens in real sports all the time. I mean besides maybe the fans were just booing because they are getting sick of seeing foreinger's get knocked out by koreans, or maybe they were sick of terran medivac boost. The point is we don't always have to be super nice to each other, sure at the end of the series clap and cheer, but if your favorite player is getting owned its ok to boo. It's called being a fan. And if you want to see esports grow, showing fan passion helps. I think day9 was being a bit naive. DO we have to be quiet nerds watching a game showing no emotion? Do you really want that kind of boring crowd? Or do you want a excited one who shouts and cheers for favorite player, and hates it when a player they want to win gets knocked out.
Real life example: Lebron James is the greatest nba player in the league right now, he returned to the cleveland got booed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpEgjZDKX8U, and still does. The point is lebron plays his game like flash does and lebron still gets booed.
I guess the point is players should have some back bone, casters aswell. If you really want esports to grow fan passion helps. I mean really who knows maybe it will help foreign players play better, because it shows fans actually care? EG is my favorite team, and when HuK and stephano, and suppy, and thorzain got knocked out I would have booed their performance. And if they won and advanced I would be cheering. Because as a fan I care how they perform I want to see EG win everything. It's not being mean its called being a fan. And maybe if we give a damn, maybe foreign players will win against koreans. We don't have to model our leagues after korean leagues, we aren't korean, we are american, and this is how our culture works.
On March 18 2013 00:21 HeeroFX wrote: I actually was gonna write a blog about this topic this morning. During the flash vs ret series, fans were booing, I suppose flash, and day9 told them to shut up. I think booing is ok because it just shows passion of fans which is pretty cool/needed. It happens in real sports all the time. I mean besides maybe the fans were just booing because they are getting sick of seeing foreinger's get knocked out by koreans, or maybe they were sick of terran medivac boost. The point is we don't always have to be super nice to each other, sure at the end of the series clap and cheer, but if your favorite player is getting owned its ok to boo. It's called being a fan. And if you want to see esports grow, showing fan passion helps. I think day9 was being a bit naive. DO we have to be quiet nerds watching a game showing no emotion? Do you really want that kind of boring crowd? Or do you want a excited one who shouts and cheers for favorite player, and hates it when a player they want to win gets knocked out.
Real life example: Lebron James is the greatest nba player in the league right, he returned to the cleveland got booed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpEgjZDKX8U, and still does. The point is lebron plays his game like flash does and lebron still gets booed.
I guess the point is players should have some back bone, casters aswell. If you really want esports to grow fan passion helps. I mean really who knows maybe it will help foreign players play better, because actually care? EG is my favorite team, and when HuK and stephano, and suppy, and thorzain got knocked out I would have booed their performance. And if they won and advanced I would be cheering. Because as a fan I care how they perform I want to see EG win everything. It's not being mean its called being a fan. And maybe if we give a damn, maybe foreign players will win against koreans. We don't have to model our leagues after korean leagues, we aren't korean, we are american, and this is how our culture works.
Stupidity at its best. Booing doesn't show emotion. It is disrespectful behaviour and aggression towards a person that doesn't deserve it. You can be quiet and not cheer for Flash if you don't want him to win, but booing because he is playing well is stupid, childish and nothing that relates to emotion. You can cheer as loud as you want for your player but you better don't be disrespectful towards the opponent for no reason whatsoever.
It doesn't help the growth of eSports at all. Day9 is right
On March 18 2013 00:21 HeeroFX wrote: I actually was gonna write a blog about this topic this morning. During the flash vs ret series, fans were booing, I suppose flash, and day9 told them to shut up. I think booing is ok because it just shows passion of fans which is pretty cool/needed. It happens in real sports all the time. I mean besides maybe the fans were just booing because they are getting sick of seeing foreinger's get knocked out by koreans, or maybe they were sick of terran medivac boost. The point is we don't always have to be super nice to each other, sure at the end of the series clap and cheer, but if your favorite player is getting owned its ok to boo. It's called being a fan. And if you want to see esports grow, showing fan passion helps. I think day9 was being a bit naive. DO we have to be quiet nerds watching a game showing no emotion? Do you really want that kind of boring crowd? Or do you want a excited one who shouts and cheers for favorite player, and hates it when a player they want to win gets knocked out.
Real life example: Lebron James is the greatest nba player in the league right, he returned to the cleveland got booed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpEgjZDKX8U, and still does. The point is lebron plays his game like flash does and lebron still gets booed.
I guess the point is players should have some back bone, casters aswell. If you really want esports to grow fan passion helps. I mean really who knows maybe it will help foreign players play better, because actually care? EG is my favorite team, and when HuK and stephano, and suppy, and thorzain got knocked out I would have booed their performance. And if they won and advanced I would be cheering. Because as a fan I care how they perform I want to see EG win everything. It's not being mean its called being a fan. And maybe if we give a damn, maybe foreign players will win against koreans. We don't have to model our leagues after korean leagues, we aren't korean, we are american, and this is how our culture works.
Stupidity at its best. Booing doesn't show emotion. It is disrespectful behaviour and aggression towards a person that doesn't deserve it. You can be quiet and not cheer for Flash if you don't want him to win, but booing because he is playing well is stupid, childish and nothing that relates to emotion. You can cheer as loud as you want for your player but you better don't be disrespectful towards the opponent for no reason whatsoever.
It doesn't help the growth of eSports at all. Day9 is right
I don't think you have ever been to a live sporting event, how is booing disrepectful? Google defines booing as a verb, ” to show disapproval or contempt." By this definition, you are wrong. The players can't hear them they are in sound proof boxes, at the end people were cheering flash, and showing him respect. But during the series fans didn't like what they saw and booed, nothing bad about that, no one was going to atttack the stage after the series. I am not saying booing=growth, I am saying fan passion=growth. Why is ok for fans in Philadelphia to boo their own teams performance, or the other team for scoring a touchdown? Or even in your case I am sure European football fans also boo there rival team. It just shows they don't like how things are going, their disapproval of performance. It just shows you care, and caring is the most important thing if you want to see esports grow. Because that means people will watch streams, buy stuff, watching tournaments. Don't be so naive. Fan passion can translate into $, which means growth.
I have been to live sporting events as well as eSports events where the game got abused hard. First IEM Morrow vs IdrA. No one did boo there. Its just stupid disrespectful behaviour. It doesn't even matter if Flash can hear it or not, he will certainly get a grasp of it or his Korean Allies will tell him. Its humilating to one person and booing bad sportsmanship or a complete team is way less critical.
Also booing the opponent doesn't show you care. Cheering your player does show you care. How often do I see posts like "god I'm so glad he LOST" ... does that seem like caring to you? It is blatant disrespect. Caring would be something along those lines:
So glad he made it! Was a tough call! ... But I don't see how aggressiveness even if its just verbal does show any kind of caring or good emotion. Actually, thats not the emotion we need and want in eSports. Taken your point, you could say hooligans care, good fans, great!
In this case, I agree that booing isn't acceptable. If you think about it, it's basically balance whining under the cover of boos. They weren't booing the player, as defenders have pointed out, but rather the mechanics of the game - the speed boost for the Medivac and Widow Mines. To continue with the sports analogy, this would be like booing every stolen base at an MLB game or every field goal at an NFL one. It's part of the rules, part of the inherent sport itself, right now and should not be booed just because you don't like it. It is hard to distinguish the booing as being against the fabric of the game as opposed to the players or their strats, maybe not to us but certainly on a base level. As such, the distinction is lost and booing Flash, or Innovation or anyone else, for simply using the ACTUAL mechanics of the game is beyond silly and disrespectful. If anything, those fans ought to write letters to Blizzard or something rather than complain about balance in such a dispiriting manner.
I am willing to accept your point Xivsa, but lets say you are the biggest Ret fan in the world, and he was about to get eliminated, wouldn't you feel upset?
On March 18 2013 01:00 HeeroFX wrote: I am willing to accept your point Xivsa, but lets say you are the biggest Ret fan in the world, and he was about to get eliminated, wouldn't you feel upset?
And that makes you boo the other player? Good sportsmanship right there! If you were a progamer you would probably not shake hands but punch your opponent in the face.
Damn the esports community is going down the real sports path. we boo stuff now? Sick. Next thing you know we'll hear of fans getting in fights tailgating outside before MLG's. or guys wearing TL jerseys getting into fights with guys wearing EG jerseys.
While watching the stream, I was very surprised to hear the boos when Flash was doing what I thought was some incredible multitasking. It detracted from the spectacle of how well Flash was playing. I think this is why Day9 spoke up, because it was clear that Flash was playing really well and it felt wrong to let that get obscured by some discussion of balance.
On March 18 2013 01:00 HeeroFX wrote: I am willing to accept your point Xivsa, but lets say you are the biggest Ret fan in the world, and he was about to get eliminated, wouldn't you feel upset?
And that makes you boo the other player? Good sportsmanship right there! If you were a progamer you would probably not shake hands but punch your opponent in the face.
Nope if I was player, I'd be paid a salary, and my only job is to win games, which means ya I have to show respect. This is a totally different topic. Sportsmanship is for the players, not the fans.
It's probably an isolated incident in my opinion, because about 95% of all the tournaments so far have been full of cheers and support. That could be some trolling to spice things up I guess. But heck I'd cheer a whole lot during tournaments if I was there :D
On March 18 2013 01:16 LuckyFool wrote: Damn the esports community is going down the real sports path. we boo stuff now? Sick. Next thing you know we'll hear of fans getting in fights tailgating outside before MLG's. or guys wearing TL jerseys getting into fights with guys wearing EG jerseys.
I realize this is sarcasm, but come on. The Sc2 crowd is one of the absolute least likely groups of people to fight anyone, voracious booing or not.
On March 18 2013 01:16 LuckyFool wrote: Damn the esports community is going down the real sports path. we boo stuff now? Sick. Next thing you know we'll hear of fans getting in fights tailgating outside before MLG's. or guys wearing TL jerseys getting into fights with guys wearing EG jerseys.
If esports got so big that stuff like that happened, we should be thankful. Sure it's "negative" and you wouldn't want to see it all the time. But right now the personalities in the business think they are bigger than the crowd and treat the crowd like children and something like that would remind them they work for us instead of: "Alright guys, cheer! No booing! Okay, now let's dance for the camera!"
This MLG has been a fantastic experience for me except for certain casters trying to act like they "are" the scene because a bunch of lemmings will agree with whatever they say.
You know who I respect a lot in this situation? DJWheat:
djWHEAT @djWHEAT Flash may have won the series, but @LiquidRet won the hearts of the fans. This place just erupted.
No whining, no telling people what to do, just accepting the sport for what it is, no fluff.
On March 18 2013 01:16 LuckyFool wrote: Damn the esports community is going down the real sports path. we boo stuff now? Sick. Next thing you know we'll hear of fans getting in fights tailgating outside before MLG's. or guys wearing TL jerseys getting into fights with guys wearing EG jerseys.
If esports got so big that stuff like that happened, we should be thankful. Sure it's "negative" and you wouldn't want to see it all the time. But right now the personalities in the business think they are bigger than the crowd and treat the crowd like children and something like that would remind them they work for us instead of: "Alright guys, cheer! No booing! Okay, now let's dance for the camera!".
but this booing is the kind of behaviour you would expect from someone who is immature. clearly they need some guidance as to what is and what is not acceptable behaviour.
i think all of these guys / girls who booed should be grounded by blizzard. don't let them log on to battle.net for a while and maybe take some ladder points away from them as punishment. also you could consider taking away units from them, so they can't build them when laddering.
Depends on the context. In certain sports, booing is normal and to be expected, so booing has less of an impact there and is used to communicate a broader range of things. In other sports, booing is only used in the most extreme of circumstances and is used to communicate intense dislike of some major error. In this situation, a large amount of booing would be pretty inappropriate. We don't really boo that often (if ever) so boos mean a lot more in SC2. Furthermore, Flash is coming here without knowing much about our culture or language so there is a distinct possibility that he would overestimate the severity of our disapproval. Of course, from what people watching the tournament live are saying in the comments, it seems that there really wasn't a problem at all. People watching the stream, due to lack of perspective, simply overestimated the quantity of booing and assumed that something big (and bad) was happening.
On March 18 2013 01:00 HeeroFX wrote: I am willing to accept your point Xivsa, but lets say you are the biggest Ret fan in the world, and he was about to get eliminated, wouldn't you feel upset?
Upset is a tricky word. Probably, I'd be most upset at Ret for losing, but how does booing Flash help that? I wouldn't boo Flash just because I was the biggest Ret fan in the world. I'd be sad more than upset, put my hands on my head or something. And assuming it was a good game and/or series, I'd clap with everyone else. If it was a series with imba Medivacs and Widow Mines, I'd just show sportsmanship anyway.
IMO, there's never a reason to boo, unless a player is doing something specifically shitty, such as the classic Naniwa 1-handed probe rush. Yeah, people do it in other sports... then again, a lot of people watching other sports are idiots, it doesn't have to be accepted just because they do it. Booing brings nothing but negativity to an event.
So if I dislike whats going on. I should be quiet and never talk about it?
Silly, silly approach to take. If you're all trying to make esports a 'real sport', why take away the only negative display a fan can do?
Some players even cater to the crowd, should they not be told when they are doing something silly?
HuK's mothership rush from however long ago that was. If that was met by a chorus of boo's, could have been a different period of time after that.
As for those people who say booing doesn't show emotion? What? Have you been to a live sports game? If I'm watching at home, I won't boo, as it has no impact, I'll just swear at the TV. If I'm at a live event, damn right I'll boo.
Famous moment in Sport, completely legal, nothing against it at the time, realistically it was the smartest thing to do.
Bottom line, people will always disagree and displays of disapproval happen at every sport.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with showing your displeasure at something. Booing at a starcraft game is no different than returning a meal at a restaurant because your food was cold.
Also the amount of elitism in this thread is pretty sickening. Everyone that is taking pot shots at sports fans needs to get their heads out of the clouds. There is a huge variety of people that like sports and just because you play RTS games doesn't make you any better or smarter than them.
On March 18 2013 18:49 nunez wrote: i don't think drawing comparisons to cricket, football and hockey will be fruitful. the more natural comparison would be to chess. we don't boo chess.
edit: some people just had unlucky / bad parents, and don't know that it's unacceptable behavior in this context. we need to educate them.
Exactly. As I said earlier in this thread, we shouldn't compare TEAM sports with starcraft which is an individual sport. Booing in tennis (or chess as you said) simply doesn't happen (besides some very specific cases)
On March 18 2013 20:20 ZeroChrome wrote: There's absolutely nothing wrong with showing your displeasure at something. Booing at a starcraft game is no different than returning a meal at a restaurant because your food was cold.
Also the amount of elitism in this thread is pretty sickening. Everyone that is taking pot shots at sports fans needs to get their heads out of the clouds. There is a huge variety of people that like sports and just because you play RTS games doesn't make you any better or smarter than them.
I think most people who you call "elitists" simply don't agree that booing should be acceptable. I don't think they "hate" sports
I'm waiting for fans in the audience to start waving large posters with funny images to distract players in their booths like when NBA players shoot free throws!
To "boo" is a part of American culture and free speech. Even someone as important and high up as Flash is not immune to the whims and feelings of the home crowd. Your opposition to the "boo" is just a manifestation of an overly politically correct community and treating Koreans like royalty. Just let the plebs do their thing and don't suppress their free speech like day9 would intend.
On March 17 2013 16:32 darkscream wrote: So today we had the crowd in Dallas booing various things. Mostly terran medivacs. I won't get into the balance issues which may, or may not exist.
But I can't believe how butt hurt the reddit and TL communities got over this - It's like people don't even understand what a sport is. If you go to football, soccer, pro wrestling, UFC, anything.. People cheer, and people boo. There are heroes, and there are heels, and the crowd decided at this event that the terran domination made terran players the heels.
A truly passionate crowd expresses a full range of emotion! You can cheer, you can boo, you can clap, you can start chants. This occurs in every sport everywhere in the world and the sportscasters would NEVER dare to be so presumptuous as to tell the crowd how to feel or behave. This is what makes sports great - the raw, real human expression that is drawn out by the events in the games. You don't mess with that. The crowd picked a side - and that side was the home team. You don't demand the crowd to cheer for both sides because they're so great, you don't pretend everyone is best friends.
Day9 honestly sounded like a kindergarten teacher tonight, ready to hand out gold star stickers to everybody just for playing along! And that just isn't sport, it isn't esport, it isn't even MLG.
Just my two cents - If you want esport to be taken seriously, we can't go around holding people's hands and trying not to hurt their feelings. People get hurt in sports, that's part of the glory.
Yes, plenty of sports boo, but there are a lot of instances where cities lose respect for booing or cheering. For example, Philadelphia has the absolute worst fans in the world. Just terrible people, at least as sports fans go. Kansas City fans deserve no respect either, since they cheered when their quarterback got a serious injury this past season. Furthermore, it's classless and shitty to boo your own team for a poor performance. That just makes you an entitled whiner, not a true fan.
Booing Medivacs? Eh. Were people booing BL/Infestor? If not, then it's kind of bullshit, since BL/Infestor was way, way, way worse than the current Medivacs.
Furthermore, the places where you hear booing are almost always team sports. It's incredibly disrespectful to boo one individual that is in front of a countless many.
On March 17 2013 17:41 Kommatiazo wrote: I was there, I was in the crowd, cheering my head off all night long for everyone and everything. There was booing, and it was most definitely from the SC2 crowd. HOWEVER, it had nothing to do with Flash, and everything to do with Medivacs and Widow mines. There might have been a total of 8 people booing, honestly, and they booed like 3 times (?) maybe. Everyone freaking out about people booing "one of the best RTSers in history" and how disgusting it was to boo a player and show that much disrespect wasn't paying attention to the massive cheers for both players going on the entire game and the even more monumental cheers after the game for Flash and Ret.
No one booed Flash. End of story. After a huge gap in games to watch the crowd had a lot of pent up energy and a lot of pent up frustration watching Terran after Terran abuse the shit out of widow/bio and medivac harass and trolled by booing when Flash's medivacs got away and cheering when Ret sniped them down.
Being in the crowd, I can tell you that 95% of the people there turned around and were essentially saying "wtf guys?" when those select few chose to boo because no, it isn't cool or ok, EVER imo. You should respect the players and remain positive, and basically everyone did, and the booers fell back into line and kept cheering their heads off with the rest of us, louder than the average probably. Regardless of the fact that the booing was actually quite friendly and trolly in nature, it was unnecessary and they should have just cheered harder when Ret managed to do what seemed impossible and hold off the drops and widow mines instead of appearing to be haters and biased.
TL;DR Either you accept that the booing was at Terrans imba-ness (alleged imba-ness I should say) and so forgive the few that did boo but maintain that they should not have done it, or you accept that booing just isn't a big deal and don't give a shit what it was directed at or who did. Otherwise you're just stirring up drama and controversy where there is none.
#Wet4Ret
I think it's hillarious how some Zergs are already complaining about Terran being balanced in hots when LIFE WON THE FUCKING MLG, and at the end period of 2012 every single tournament was Zerg-only ro8 (no terrans ro32 in BWC) and they didn't seem to see anything wrong then.
Just because something is acceptable in other sports..doesnt mean we should encourage it here. Drunken brawling is prevelant in most professional sporting stadiums... I dont want to encourage we bring this into Esports.
Cheering for someone/thing shows that you are passionate and have a psychological/emotional connection with whatever it is you are cheering for.
Boo'ing just means your a selfish prick who cant stand anything that you dont like. Imagine if at your high school childs graduation, every single parent boo'ed whenever their kid wasnt called. That would be ridiculously bad right? Yet noone will ever complain about cheering for your family member.
Cheering is a positive expression, and offends noone. Booing is intentionally going out of your way to try to ruin the experience of both the competitor, and that competitors fans.
I have a friend who is now a professional Athlete for the Minnesota Vikings, at both his high school, and college football games he would often get negative cheers from opposing fans. Its disgusting and demonstrates your lack of class and self control.
Getting shitfaced and puking on strangers happens in professional sports, maybe we should argue to bring more of that to esports because it happens in real sports.
Seriously being rude, and trying to demean other players/fans just because your a selfish douche, makes you look exactly like that a giant flaming douche, who decides his tastes are the only ones that deserve positive enforcements.
On March 21 2013 08:58 MaestroSC wrote: Just because something is acceptable in other sports..doesnt mean we should encourage it here. Drunken brawling is prevelant in most professional sporting stadiums... I dont want to encourage we bring this into Esports.
Cheering for someone/thing shows that you are passionate and have a psychological/emotional connection with whatever it is you are cheering for.
Boo'ing just means your a selfish prick who cant stand anything that you dont like. Imagine if at your high school childs graduation, every single parent boo'ed whenever their kid wasnt called. That would be ridiculously bad right? Yet noone will ever complain about cheering for your family member.
Cheering is a positive expression, and offends noone. Booing is intentionally going out of your way to try to ruin the experience of both the competitor, and that competitors fans.
I have a friend who is now a professional Athlete for the Minnesota Vikings, at both his high school, and college football games he would often get negative cheers from opposing fans. Its disgusting and demonstrates your lack of class and self control.
Getting shitfaced and puking on strangers happens in professional sports, maybe we should argue to bring more of that to esports because it happens in real sports.
Seriously being rude, and trying to demean other players/fans just because your a selfish douche, makes you look exactly like that a giant flaming douche, who decides his tastes are the only ones that deserve positive enforcements.
EPT
