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Carpentry: Building Basic Wood Structures

Blogs > micronesia
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micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24637 Posts
December 29 2012 00:58 GMT
#1
Something I've been planning on doing for a few years is building a shed to replace an old one. The time has finally come where (this spring) I will be able to do it. I decided I'll start small by building a scaffold; it's much easier to make than a building and also will be helpful when making the shed. Here is the design I came up with in sketchup:

[image loading]
Platforms are 2'x2', 2' high and 4' high from the ground


The thing I'm worried about is how to connect lumber perpendicular to a flat surface, such as here:

[image loading]


If you drive a couple of long screws in from the top (opposite the end of the lumber), won't the board still tend to wobble? Is it necessary to attach right angle brackets at each of those joints?

Anyway, I've been reading up a bit on how to build sheds, and I put together (after quite a few hours) a custom design. It needs to be approximately 6' by 10' and requires a door on one of the long sides. I opted for a "lean-to" design where the ceiling is highest in the front and lowest in the back. There will need to be some type of a ramp in order to get heavy equipment in/out.

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]
I removed the ground so you can see the substructure, as though you are looking up from underground!


There are six concrete blocks being used to support the base; they are over half buried into the ground, with just a couple of inches peeking up. The floor structure has plywood over 2"x6" boards. The wall framing uses 2"x4" and the rafters are 2"x6". Except for four 2"x6" boards for the floor, I won't need anything over 8'. Do you think I should use pressure-treated wood for the lowest layer of the floor, even though it will be a couple of inches off the ground?

I mainly was hoping to get some input into how to join the two pieces of wood the way I mentioned above, but I thought I'd also share the shed design I've been working on in the meantime.

*****
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
imBLIND
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2626 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-29 02:28:11
December 29 2012 01:34 GMT
#2
Lots of ways to make a perpendicular joint:

The lazy way is the butt joint, which is exactly what your picture is. Can be sturdy if the pieces are big enough

The compicated way to do it would be to make a rabbet joint
[image loading]
I just do it this way a lot cause I don't have a chop saw or a really nice table saw for my work..but I only do like small carpentry stuff. It works for big stuff too though, and it's pretty flexible for all situations once you get the hang of it.

For stability, You could just put a Z-bar each plane (or buy a thing of plywood and attach a wall to it...same thing).

EDIT: After looking at the picture, your problem isn't joints, it's just adding stability. You should probably invest in putting Z-bars or plywood walls on the sides and bottom. I'd prolly do the plywood on the bottom cause you'd have to do an X-bar, which is annoying. Rabbet joints are just for getting things done without the use of screws and nails, so forget what I said about that.

Brackets can work for certain parts of your scaffold, it'd prolly be best to add brackets and a z-bar/wall just to be safe, but I don't think just brackets will work very well unless you're a pretty skinny guy

[image loading]
If you're going to use just brackets, get those.

I've seen a lot of sheds built with those concrete blocks, and the biggest problem by far is moisture and mold. Treated wood should work for a while, but long term you need to have a simple drainage system...maybe like some trenches that lead the water outwards from the shed. I think polyurethane seal for outdoor use might be good enough for a very long time, provided you put a couple coats on it. Ask the hardware store which one is the right one to use.

Oh and watch out for termites and wood eating insects.



im deaf
jetburger
Profile Joined December 2011
United States87 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-29 02:15:01
December 29 2012 02:00 GMT
#3
Is the scaffolding just a temporary structure to help you build the shed? 'Cause if so, you can just put some crossbracing between all the legs and that will make it very sturdy. Doesn't have to be pretty if it's just temporary.

Edit: The shed door will swing outwards, right?

Edit2: Any piece of wood that is in direct contact with the earth should be treated. To be safe, I personally would use treated wood on pieces that are within about 6" from the ground too. You never know what may happen: heavy rain splashing upwards; you happened to build the shed in a low spot in your yard and water pools; moles may decide to create a mound of earth under your structure; etc.

Edit3: I don't know if you already know this or not, and just didn't bother to reflected it in your sketchup shed design, but this is what typical wood framing looks like at a door opening.
http://www.architectionary.com/DoorFraming
You're missing the "jack studs" that hold up the double header. ( I just want to make sure you're not gonna trying to "hang" the header off of single studs like you have shown.
Praetorial
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States4241 Posts
December 29 2012 02:01 GMT
#4
O.o

I once tried Google Sketchup.

I made a box with my name on it.
FOR GREAT JUSTICE! Bans for the ban gods!
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24637 Posts
December 29 2012 02:21 GMT
#5
Thanks guys; I'm pretty new to this so all advice is definitely welcome.

On December 29 2012 11:00 jetburger wrote:
Is the scaffolding just a temporary structure to help you build the shed? 'Cause if so, you can just put some crossbracing between all the legs and that will make it very sturdy. Doesn't have to be pretty if it's just temporary.
Yeah, that's exactly the case and probably what I will do.

Edit: The shed door will swing outwards, right?
Yeah. Do you think a storm door would work?

Edit2: Any piece of wood that is in direct contact with the earth should be treated. To be safe, I personally would use treated wood on pieces that are within about 6" from the ground too. You never know what may happen: heavy rain splashing upwards; you happened to build the shed in a low spot in your yard and water pools; moles may decide to create a mound of earth under your structure; etc.

Good idea.

Edit3: I don't know if you already know this or not, and just didn't bother to reflected it in your sketchup shed design, but this is what typical wood framing looks like at a door opening.
http://www.architectionary.com/DoorFraming
You're missing the "jack studs" that hold up the double header. ( I just want to make sure you're not gonna trying to "hang" the header off of single studs like you have shown.

Thanks, I will use the design you showed me. I did oversimplify it in the sketchup, but I didn't have a sample to work with so I'm not sure exactly what I would have done.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
jetburger
Profile Joined December 2011
United States87 Posts
December 29 2012 02:36 GMT
#6
Another thing worth mentioning: make sure you have the double top plate like shown in the link I gave. The weight of your roof and rafters needs to rest on a double top plate, not single like you have shown.

Re: storm doors.... hmm, not sure. When you go to the hardware store to buy these materials, you might ask a knowledgeable employee for further advice.

While you're at it, ask them whether you should be worried about uneven settling too. Basically, if your shed is too heavy and your concrete blocks are not big enough (i.e. they are not spreading their load to a large enough area of the ground) then the entire structure could sink bit by bit over the years. Depends on soil conditions.

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, though. I tend to be overly cautious in everything I do.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24637 Posts
December 29 2012 02:41 GMT
#7
On December 29 2012 11:36 jetburger wrote:
Another thing worth mentioning: make sure you have the double top plate like shown in the link I gave. The weight of your roof and rafters needs to rest on a double top plate, not single like you have shown.

Re: storm doors.... hmm, not sure. When you go to the hardware store to buy these materials, you might ask a knowledgeable employee for further advice.

While you're at it, ask them whether you should be worried about uneven settling too. Basically, if your shed is too heavy and your concrete blocks are not big enough (i.e. they are not spreading their load to a large enough area of the ground) then the entire structure could sink bit by bit over the years. Depends on soil conditions.

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, though. I tend to be overly cautious in everything I do.

According to a free shed design I found online, it uses 4 instead of 6 blocks, despite having a larger square footage... I think the way I have it in the design with six blocks plus side-by-side 2 by 6's is overkill as it is. I will definitely ask at the store though.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Staboteur
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada1873 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-29 08:32:39
December 29 2012 08:15 GMT
#8
6 blocks would be overkill if you're intending to support all your floor joists with joist hangers, but if you aren't, those extra two blocks will help support your intermediate joist quite nicely.

Hold that thought. I'm gonna just buzz over building this thing in my head, and note where I'd build, do, or design things differently. As a disclaimer, I have been a carpenter for 6 years, BUT am still young and reckless (:D), and definitely not a certified engineer.

Foundation : Cinderblocks should work and be cheap, but if you left me to it, this is what I'd do:

What you'd need to get are some 4x4 treated posts (two 8' lengths would do!), a couple bags of concrete, and a shovel.

To start, lay out where you want the shed, and mark each corner of the building with respectable accuracy. Then, dig roughly a 2 foot deep by 12 inch diameter hole centered roughly on each mark (deviate towards the inside of the structure if you're doubtful!)

Next, cut yourself a 4' chunk of treated 4x4 and use it to pack down all the dirt in your hole. If you don't do this, stuff starts settling, and life gets ugly, so do your best piledriver impression and stamp all the dirt in every hole down until it seems like you can't feasibly pack it anymore.

Next, stick a 4' chunk of treated 4x4 in the hole, and begin filling the hole with concrete. If you don't know how to mix concrete, ask someone who knows... but if you've done it somewhat right, the concrete should be at a consistency where it will hold the post upright, but you don't have too much of a problem pushing it up and down, if you need to. Push the post up and down at least once, just to be extra sure there's not a pocket of air or something hiding in the concrete, double check that the post is level and as square as you can to your imaginary structure, and then let it set up a bit. You'll be basing the exact layout of your other 3 posts off this post, so with that in mind it's both a good idea to start at a back corner (so if your estimation of square to your imaginary structure is really bad, you won't see the awkward twisty post as much as you would if it were on the front!) and to do this post to completion first and let it cure a bit before you start measuring off of it. It's quite frustrating to meticulously lay something out, and then accidentally move your benchmark (what you measured from) and screw up all the work you did!

With your first post done, and all 4 postholes dug and packed down, you can start the next post exactly like you did the first, but with taking care to make sure it hits whatever exact layout it needs to hit (for example, if your first post and the post you decide to do second are both on the "short wall" side, you'd measure 6 feet from outside of one post to outside of the other post, making sure both are plumb. It'll possibly be a bit irritating, and you might quickly learn why carpenters -love- having helpers for that extra set of hands). The second post is easy, but the third post might be a bit trickier, because you need to be paying attention to square, or you'll end up running in to trouble down the line, when you try and sheet your floor, build your walls, and... well, everything.

So! Before you start post 3, you'll need to have a method of verifying that your 3rd post is square to your first two... otherwise, it's bad. I'd do it by pulling a string line from the back side of my first post, along the long back wall of the structure so that it passes through roughly where I feel like the post -should- be, and putting a stake in the ground to keep the string line there. That would give me a long, very straight reference line. I'd then measure 8' off the outside of my first post, and make a little mark with sharpie on the string. Knowing that my second post is exactly 6' from my first post, I'd measure off of the far corner of that post (one of the front corners of the structure, essentially) and measure to the line I made at 8' on the string line. The " 3 - 4 - 5 rule " is some trigonometry magic that states that if one side of a triangle is 3 whatever, and another side of the triangle is 4 whatever, then the... diagonal part (WHAT IS IT CALLED?!) of the triangle should be 5 whatever, and if it isn't, then the corner between the 3whatever side and the 4whatever side isn't 90 degrees, or isn't square. In this case, I doubled it, making it the " 6 - 8 - 10 rule "... but it still applies.

SO if my measurement from that corner of the 2nd post to my mark on the stringline isn't exactly 10 feet, then I move it accordingly until it is. What that gives me is a line that is exactly square to my first two posts, which gives me the back edge of that third post. Using the same old methods, set up the third post, and be sure to bring it just up so it is barely touching the string line, and set it so it is measured 10 feet off of the first post.

This is taking me longer to type than it would to do.

Your fourth post is dead easy, and is measured 6 feet off the 3rd post to its outside front edge, and 10 feet from the 2nd post to its outside side edge. It should end up in the only spot where those two conditions are true, and should be completely square to everything else.

SO! Having been very meticulous and careful with the foundations, we get to do more of the fun parts.

(As a short pro-cons of this compared to cinderblocks : You could explain how to level cinderblocks in like 3 sentences and be fine. It's waaay simpler and cheaper, and respectably effective. Cinderblocks will have a tendency to sink and shift over time, and they're far from a perfect foundation, but they'll do the job and you can probably forget about them for 2 years before they start to move enough for it to matter. On the other hand, posts like this, while costing more and being more time consuming, look more professional, and offer you a good 6 years of staying exactly where they are before the posts consider rotting on you. I'm told it actually takes longer than that, but my experience of any wood resting against concrete or earth, treated or not, has the wood losing the battle in under a decade. I might just be unlucky.)

Floor:

I'd almost definitely build it out of treated 10' 2x8s, laid out 16" on center for joists, with double 6' 2x8 joists running the full 6 feet of each short side of the building, sitting on top of each post. Because I'm spoiled and always tend to build things to last as long as I can, I'd also be putting joist hangers on all of my long joists, because while hanger nails and hangers are an added expense, it removes the worry of your joists ever falling off, which is worth it as far as I'm concerned.

You could run double 2x8s across the front and back of the structure if you wanted, but I don't feel like that is necessary. 2x8s can support a lot of weight, and 10 feet isn't that broad a span. Unless you're hauling 200-300 pounds through the door, it shouldn't be a worry. If you ARE, I'd say absolutely double it up.

I'd also sheet the floor with 3/4 ply with the grain running perpendicular to the joists, because apparently that's what you're supposed to do. The world doesn't collapse if you do it the other way (I tried!), but apparently running perpendicular is better.

What's nice about this imaginary build so far is that the entire weight of the structure so far is sent directly into these 4 posts that we encased in concrete, so it's really stinkin' strong and not likely to go anywhere.

Walls:

2x4 walls, 16" on center yadda yadda! The guy above that's talking about jack studs and 2x6 headers knows what he's talking about. It's definitely important to know the size of your door before you frame its rough opening, but it's all fairly straightforward. What you've got shown is no good, but someone's already given capable advice there, so I defer to him :D

My only major consideration is the side walls. I'm undecided if I'd build the front and back (10 foot) walls first, stand them up, plumb and brace them back so they stay there, then do the trusses (2x6es that form the roof), and come back and build the side walls so the studs run up beside the trusses and get nailed to them. Or if I'd build all 4 walls as you've shown, sheet them, and then puzzle out the roof afterwards.

Also, all walls should be sheeted and/or braced before anything beyond just trusses happens to the roof. If your walls are not cross-braced or sheeted, it's quite possible that your building would fall over. Which would suck.

Roof :

(They're actually called rafters, but I call them trusses because I'm simpleminded and they're related to rooves. They're not actually trusses, so please forgive the added confusion!)

Like you've shown works. If your trusses are birds-mouthed (Google it!) it does good things for your structural integrity AND makes you feel cool about yourself.

Also, as a random thing that also applies to your floor : whenever you can, it is a good idea to look at your boards for their "crown" and have it upwards. No board is perfectly straight, and practically every board is slightly (or sometimes not-so-slightly) c-shaped. Before you install your headers or floor joists or trusses, or any load-bearing lateral piece of wood, run your eye down it and determine which side is the crown, and make a little arrow on the wood for yourself that points to it, so you remember to have that arrow pointing upwards. It's a minor thing and will never make much of a tangible difference, but it could, in the long term, prevent a sag in your floor or other such miserable occurance. If the wood wants to form a natural arch, you might as well use it to your advantage, right?

As far as roofing material goes, I'll honestly leave that in your capable hands. It isn't anything I know much about, so... good luck!

If I've confused you more than I've helped in any regard, feel free to pop me a question. As you can tell, building things is something I find fairly interesting, and I'll be more than happy to help!

Cheers, and good luck!
I'm actually Fleetfeet D:
jetburger
Profile Joined December 2011
United States87 Posts
December 29 2012 10:44 GMT
#9
Very good advice from Staboteur. I tend to agree about building proper concrete footings rather than using the barely-submerged cinderblocks. I hesitated to mention it earlier because I wasn't sure how complicated and involved the OP wanted to make his first major project.

If you decide to do it, just make sure to be very careful and meticulous, like Staboteur says, though. I helped my bro-in-law build a wooden pool deck for an above-ground swimming pool a few years back. We did the poured concrete footings. We were not super careful about being accurate and straight and plumb and square. Now the entire structure is slightly crooked and skewed. What should have been a rectangle ended up being a trapezoid. But we just had to live with it because once concrete is cure, it's set for good.

Take your time! Do it right! Get another pair of hands to help when necessary!
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24637 Posts
December 29 2012 15:51 GMT
#10
Thanks a lot guys; seems like very good advice. I will consider all of this.

I'm definitely leaning towards 'simple' though as I am indeed inexperienced.

How do you get better at this, short of signing up for a full time carpentry apprenticeship? I don' totally get how so many people are good at this type of stuff... is it just by doing projects like I am doing and learning from advice/mistakes?
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Staboteur
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada1873 Posts
December 29 2012 16:42 GMT
#11
Experience passed down through the ages!

I started working doing residential renovations with a guy who had been doing residential renovations for well over a decade... who had learned what he knew from people who had been doing the same or similar before him. We all learn as we go along!

And yes, doing projects like you're doing is very helpful, but having someone more experienced than yourself around to give you some pointers is definitely helpful, as far as experience goes.

One thing I forgot to mention about the posts is that you'd have to level across all of them and cut them to the same height at some point. Kinda important!
I'm actually Fleetfeet D:
HunterWhitlock
Profile Joined February 2017
1 Post
February 23 2017 12:19 GMT
#12
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