• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:04
CEST 01:04
KST 08:04
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature3Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy9uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event18Serral wins EWC 202549
Community News
Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris11Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again!13Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple6SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up6
StarCraft 2
General
Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again! What mix of new and old maps do you want in the next 1v1 ladder pool? (SC2) : I made a 5.0.12/5.0.13 replay fix
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 487 Think Fast Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL Maps with Neutral Command Centers Victoria gamers [ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway How do the new Battle.net ranks translate?
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro24 Group B Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
High temperatures on bridge(s) Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment"
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
Breaking the Meta: Non-Stand…
TrAiDoS
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2247 users

Fighting the UI

Blogs > ChristianS
Post a Reply
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
September 06 2012 01:36 GMT
#1
Alternate Title: "Losing My Well-rated Blog Streak"

This will not be a blog directly regarding Starcraft 2. This will not even be a blog directly regarding RTS. Discussion of HotS has reminded me, however, of some thoughts I've had before about platforming games (and how this might apply to games in general) that I thought I would share. First, some history.

In 1983, Nintendo produced an arcade game called Mario Bros. Most of you have probably seen it; it's been released as a mini-game a few times on other Nintendo games, and Super Smash Brothers Brawl even had it as a level.

[image loading]
Remember me?


Controls were very simple. Run. Jump. While jumping, you have basically no control over your character until you land. And there aren't really any walls around, so you don't have to worry about being able to jump off of them. Yet with such simple gameplay, the game was a hit.

In fact, was a big enough hit that a sequel was even made, called Super Mario Bros. This featured the now well-known side-scrolling gameplay, complete with blocks that give coins, power-ups, and lives, and enemies whose heads can be jumped on to defeat them and bounce into the air.

[image loading]
Back when "2 Player Game" meant "identical to the 1 Player Game, but the game tells you when to hand off the controller."


At this point it is necessary to mention difficulty curves. Most games start off relatively easy; if not, many players immediately get discouraged and quit. On the other hand, a game can't stay that easy, or else players quickly get bored and quit. There is a healthy range in which a game's difficulty has to stay in order to keep its players involved. While a difficulty curve (a graph of game difficulty against time spent playing) is not identical to a learning curve (a graph of player skill against time spent playing), a well-designed difficulty curve should stay relatively close to the learning curve to keep the player interested without making them discouraged.

[image loading]
Not to nitpick, but this picture describes DIFFICULTY curves, not LEARNING curves.


In Mario Bros. the difficulty curve drew itself; the arcade game kept going as long as the player could keep up, and when they couldn't keep up any more, they died and the game asked for more money. But in Super Mario Bros. the designers had to specifically set a difficulty curve. Nintendo has historically assumed Americans were bad at video games, so they generally release Mario games with fairly easy difficulty curves.

Super Mario Bros. 2 was designed as a very difficult game, but it was only released in Japan; they actually made a completely different (easier) game for the American release of Super Mario Bros. 2. They later gave American hardcore gamers a chance to play the original, hard version when they released Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels. This game is one of the hardest platformers in existence. The control scheme had not yet changed; in-air control was still basically non-existent, and there were no wall-jumps. So the difficulty of the game came from its completely unforgiving design; many of the challenges consisted simply of jumping at precisely the right time to land on the proper platform, because anything less than perfect timing of the jump, and you would simply watch Mario arc through the air into a pit while the player watched helplessly. Lives are relatively scarce, and punishments for running out of lives are brutal. American gamers found the game too hard, and Japan promised to never again release a challenging Mario game in America.


It's hard to play this game and not feel like the Nintendo developers have a deep, irrational hatred for you.


Mario side-scrollers were pretty easy from that point on. Gameplay additions made the controls less unforgiving; in-air control was increased, and wall jumps were added. I like to imagine somewhere there was a Mario-themed forum much like TL for Starcraft, where the older Lost Levels veterans made fun of the newer Super Mario World forumgoers for their sloppy mechanics and discussed how in-air control and wall jumps were lowering the skill ceiling.

Now lets change tracks completely, to the indie title Super Meat Boy (a game which delights in its initials). The UI for Super Meat Boy is far more forgiving than the old Mario games; your character can run much faster than Mario ever did, and you have so much wall jump and in-air control that you can literally jump off a wall, in-air control back to that wall, and wall jump again and climb that wall. Lives are not scarce; in fact, the game doesn't even count deaths, has very short load times between dying and starting again, and offers replays at the end of each level showing all your lives simultaneously, as if they are inviting you to die a lot. If removing limitations on player control is easy-moding the game, then Super Meat Boy should be the easiest side-scroller on the planet.

[image loading]
What, you don't have meat curtains?


Yet Super Meat Boy is one of the hardest games you'll ever play, almost certainly harder than Lost Levels. Why? Because Meat Boy didn't just add easier player controls, they also added a HELL of a lot more difficulty. You're surrounded by spinning saw blades, homing missiles, lava pits, and all manner of destructive circumstances that Mario was way too much of a sissy to handle. The PC version can technically be played with keyboard controls, but it's virtually required to use a gamepad.

[image loading]
Alternate Warning Text: "A gamepad isn't required, but neither is bathing. Think about it."


The takeaway lesson is not just that Team Meat found an alternate way to make a difficult 2D platformer. They found a better way. When I walk away from a session of Super Meat Boy, I feel discouraged and upset about the challenge I just failed repeatedly, or swelled with pride at the incredible obstacles I just thwarted, but in either case, I'm excited by the awesome feats they let me pull off so easily. As I improve, I learn to leap off a conveyor belt pulling me upward at just the right second to let me grab the collectible between two sawblades without going too high or too low and dying, where in Lost Levels the same level of practice allows you to, for instance, jump to a small platform without falling. Despite the difficulty involved, I am hoping to 100% complete Super Meat Boy some day, including all A+ time trials and all collectibles (and I've already done so up to the dark world of World 4). If I play Lost Levels, on the other hand, I walk away discouraged about challenges I've failed, or somewhat happy at having succeeded in such an unforgiving environment, but ultimately, I just feel like my character doesn't do what I tell them to, and I feel like playing a different game in the future.


The most aptly named of all the Super Meat Boy worlds.



Conclusions

      -Games need ways to make the gameplay hard.
In early arcade games, this problem was pretty easy; technology limited control systems enough that just playing a game properly was, in most cases, pretty hard. Arcade games built their own difficulty curves pretty easily, and early Mario games didn't have to do anything that special to be really hard, because the controls were basic and unforgiving. As technology improves, it becomes easier and easier to make control systems intuitive, but that means developers must come up with other ways to ensure their games remain challenging.

      -As technology evolves, game design must evolve with it.
Adding wall-jumps may have made Mario games easier, but it was a good change; it made gameplay more exciting, more fun, and more dynamic. Maybe those games were too easy, but if so, the solution is not to revert to the former era of more difficult controls. You must find new solutions to the problems that new technology presents, not try to apply the same old formula that worked in the '80s.

      -Improve gameplay UI where you can, and worry about difficulty curves after.
It's not nearly as fun to set arbitrary obstacles that raise skill ceiling; ideally, challenges will be fun and exciting. In my opinion (and remember, this is just my opinion), going back to my Command Center every few seconds to send a worker to mine is not an example of a fun and exciting challenge.

      -Go play Super Meat Boy, damnit!
It's a really good game. It makes you want to ragequit every thirty seconds, but that just makes it all the more glorious when you conquer Doctor Fetus's infernal obstacles.

****
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
flamewheel
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
September 06 2012 07:00 GMT
#2
I absolutely loved Super Meat Boy. Took me the better part of a month to grab the A+s in all the Light World, and exams/real life conflicts prevented the completion of Dark World. Reading your blog makes me want to start up again, though at this point I'm kind of scared to do so.

Good read.
Writerdamn, i was two days from retirement
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
September 06 2012 07:12 GMT
#3
Ohhh man Super Meat Boy gave me so much grief

Definitely a great read. You really put some effort into this post <3

flamewheel #1 underrated blogs finder.
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
surfinbird1
Profile Joined September 2009
Germany999 Posts
September 06 2012 08:20 GMT
#4
I completely agree and as others have already said: FUCK YEAH SUPER MEAT BOY! A good comment was made by Egoraptor in his "Sequelitis" video series. When Mega Man added wall jumps and such it had to move from little platformy parts to larger levels and more focused on traversing height obstacles since the platforming itself became easier.
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
jrkirby
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1510 Posts
September 06 2012 10:47 GMT
#5
The main thing I like about super meat boy is that it lets you learn what you did wrong and change QUICKLY. With short streamlined levels, you never have to wait more than 15-30 seconds to get your next chance at any particular level. This allows everyone, not just hardcore gamers, to practice the hell out of a level. And when players are given the chance to practice something, surprise surprise, they learn something. And humans really want to be engaged in learning something, not bored.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
September 06 2012 20:08 GMT
#6
Super Meat Boy is plainly supposed to be brute force trial and error. But that's perfect, it love slowly figuring out the exact path I want to take and then fine-tuning it with each life.


On September 06 2012 16:00 flamewheel wrote:
I absolutely loved Super Meat Boy. Took me the better part of a month to grab the A+s in all the Light World, and exams/real life conflicts prevented the completion of Dark World. Reading your blog makes me want to start up again, though at this point I'm kind of scared to do so.

Good read.

Glad you liked it! And oh geez, I did light world and dark world at the same time for each world. I couldn't imagine trying to do nothing but dark world for a significant period of time, you need the light world to break it up. Also, did you get all the bandages?
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
flamewheel
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 01:53:01
September 07 2012 01:51 GMT
#7
All the Light World ones and Dark World up to 4-8. I'm pretty sure the Donkey-Kong style fireballs killed my drive.

If that weren't the case, then Cotton Alley Dark 7-20 (four letter wordwait no, bragging rights--though I do think four letter word was harder for me) definitely killed me. I play with a keyboard and on a relatively non-responsive laptop, and that has led to nigh a thousand deaths on that level alone.
Writerdamn, i was two days from retirement
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25499 Posts
September 07 2012 03:30 GMT
#8
Was a good read, was directed here from a link regarding the UI changes in SC2. In that case I imagine you were drawing some kind of parallel here, but I can't really agree with that.

In the case of SuperMeatBoy the difficulty, the sense of accomplishment comes from beating it, sometimes with many many repetitions of the same small sequence. In Starcraft, the sense of accomplishment comes from beating your opponent using all the tools you have to your advantage, and outplaying them in that sense. By reducing the amount of ways you can outplay your opponent it makes it a bit less satisfactory for some of us

Regardless, awesome read enjoyed the blog a lot.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
September 07 2012 05:47 GMT
#9
Obviously competitive multiplayer presents different problems for difficulty curves. Difficulty is still generated, basically, by presenting challenges to players that force them to exhibit skill. If the UI is difficult to use, that is an example of a challenge that forces players to exhibit skill.

My point was that older games use that as a challenge mostly out of necessity; the technology forced them to have difficult UI's that created challenging gameplay. Newer games improve on those UI's by making them more intuitive and easy to use, but that changes the difficulty curve. Some people are inclined to say this means you shouldn't make the UI improve, because it'll wreck your difficulty curve. Super Meat Boy instead chose to go all-out with the UI improvements, and then design a difficulty curve for the new system by making the game hard in other ways. I personally think the latter approach is much stronger, because it enables you to take full advantage of new technology and adapt as video games evolve.

Glad you enjoyed it!
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
September 07 2012 06:47 GMT
#10
Amazing blog! Never realized what the lost levels were for until now. As for Super Meat Boy, ya, I agree. After beating a level, it felt awesome. It really reminded me of the old POP games although honestly, it would take me a ton of time to win some of the levels in that video you posted but that's where the fun is! Seeing the replay after dying > 100 times lol.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Recognizable
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Netherlands1552 Posts
September 07 2012 16:02 GMT
#11
Great read, agree with everything you said.
Alexj
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Ukraine440 Posts
September 07 2012 16:16 GMT
#12
That's actually how I usually describe my annoyance of BroodWar: your main enemy is the game's UI, not the player opponent.
More GGs, more skill
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 11h 56m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft247
Nathanias 116
UpATreeSC 103
CosmosSc2 24
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 747
Shuttle 635
ggaemo 162
Dota 2
monkeys_forever564
NeuroSwarm75
League of Legends
Reynor86
Counter-Strike
Foxcn296
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King60
Other Games
tarik_tv19937
gofns12672
summit1g5706
shahzam203
C9.Mang0157
Sick110
Day[9].tv85
Trikslyr36
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV23
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta47
• musti20045 37
• RyuSc2 29
• OhrlRock 1
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22797
League of Legends
• Doublelift4673
Counter-Strike
• imaqtpie1087
• Shiphtur181
Other Games
• WagamamaTV273
• Day9tv85
Upcoming Events
LiuLi Cup
11h 56m
BSL Team Wars
19h 56m
Team Hawk vs Team Dewalt
Korean StarCraft League
1d 3h
CranKy Ducklings
1d 10h
SC Evo League
1d 12h
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d 13h
Classic vs Percival
Spirit vs NightMare
CSO Cup
1d 16h
[BSL 2025] Weekly
1d 18h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
SC Evo League
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Sziky
Replay Cast
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Queen vs HyuN
EffOrt vs Calm
Wardi Open
3 days
RotterdaM Event
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Rush vs TBD
Jaedong vs Mong
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
herO vs TBD
Royal vs Barracks
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Jiahua Invitational
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 1
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

CSLAN 3
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 2
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
EC S1
Sisters' Call Cup
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.