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Hello TeamLiquid! I've been thinking about posting a blog about something here for a while, but as I never write anything on any forums anywhere and just lurk, I hadn't made one.
I love philosophy, thinking why things are the way they are and I believe everything has an answer, just because humans can't give an answer to something doesn't mean it doesn't have an answer. We just don't know it! That's one of the reasons I love starcraft and I'm anxiously waiting for HotS - even if the units suck, noboby knows all the strategies and I can finally get the oppoturnity of figuring out how to deal with new strategies. I think that's what kept me playing starcraft for so long, having problems and solving them by yourself.
All my life I've been asking questions: when I was little I asked them from my parents, now I ask myself and my friends. I was lucky enough to have good parents who had good answers for everything, and for that I will be forever grateful. As I was always getting answers, I always kept asking more and more questions. But as I write this I also realise that others may have not been as lucky, some people are brainwashed by their parents and told to "shut up or I'll make you shut up."
I don't believe in god. I'm not a militant atheist who goes around /r/atheism posting memes about christians, but I don't believe in anything supernatural. But the reason why I want to talk about religion is because I think religion is one of those many things that are just "don't look inside the box, we know what's inside already". Religion is a way for an easier answer to our questions, and being okay with it. Not thinking further than that. I like to think that religious people are equally smart as anyone else, they've just been taught by their parents that religion is true or they haven't thought enough about the question "is there are god?".
And I honestly can't blame some people for not thinking more clearly in our society, where nobody encourages children to think by themselves. Young kids listen to their parents and learn from them. I was lucky enough to have parents who encouraged me to think for myself. I grew up being taught christianity in my school, reading stories from the bible and having weekly silent prayers in our school. I've done all the religion classes in compulsory school and all the compulsory religion courses in high school, and the more I read the more I'm convinced it doesn't make any sense.
I don't want this to sound like I'm anti-religious or anything, because I don't mind religion. Religion is very good for people that need hope, and it keeps them going. I just want schools to encourage children to think for themselves, try to think if the answer really is the answer or not. But at the moment at least in Finland children in lower grades are taught religious stories as history.
So what am I proposing? Children should be taught philosophy in lower grades, at least in some form. Probably not philosophic history, but teaching the kids to think by themselves, asking them questions and make them talk about what they think. There are so many intelligent kids out there that are taught not to think by themselves and the school system would rather teach them religious history about Moses dividing the waters of an ocean with the magical powers of god and then leading his people to a 40 year old march through a desert and then the receiving Ten Commandments from god.
EDIT
Thanks for all the responses, I've skimmed through all of them and have given this some more thought.
- Children shouldn't be born into religion - your parents shouldn't choose what you believe.
- Children don't have to think about hard questions such as what happens after death.
- The school system should instead teach children to use their brain to solve things, not just read facts about the big bang theory and believe it because it is science. When you actually understand something everything becomes much easier.
- You don't need religion for moral, going against the rules on purpose is not rational.
- Children should be able to choose themselves if they want to learn about christianity or some other religion or no religion.
The only reason I'm only addressing the school system is because different people have different parents and background. The school system can be changed and make a change for everyone.
 
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I guess 'critical thinking' more appropriately describes what you are looking for. With that, I totally agree - everyone should be taught critical thinking skills from a young age. Currently we seem to assume that a) critical thinking skills will either develop "on their own" as people age and become more experienced or b) critical thinking skills will be a byproduct of our current educational system. I don't agree with either of those two, so yeah.
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Yeah, I agree. Specifically critical thinking classes would be good for children, but I heard that some schools had programs like that and religious organizations lobbied against it because naturally critical thinking and religion don't coexist very well.
That said, philosophy as a whole has a lot of unnecessary stuff that we don't want to teach to children, so it's important to be selective about what happens in actual classrooms.
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I disagree, philosophy is in vain when it comes to coping existentially, kids who never think about it are lucky. I wish I didn't have hyper critical thinking myself, I probably never would have climbed into the figuritive pit of depression.
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On August 29 2012 22:23 EnE wrote:
I disagree, philosophy is in vain when it comes to coping existentially, kids who never think about it are lucky. I wish I didn't have hyper critical thinking myself, I probably never would have climbed into the figuritive pit of depression.
Ignorance is bliss? Let's not keep children stupid just because you feel like intelligence weighs on your shoulders. Might as well tell them to live on welfare instead of working because working is harder.
Come on man. Not to mention, philosophy doesn't have to bring up existential questions at a young age, in fact I'd argue that it shouldn't. But logic and critical thinking are good tools for ANYONE to have.
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On August 29 2012 22:01 Highlow wrote:
But as I write this I also realise that others may have not been as lucky, some people are brainwashed by their parents and told to "shut up or I'll make you shut up."
You seem to have a rather negative outlook on people who are disinclined to think for themselves, since you state here that these people like cannot think for themselves. Maybe this is the case with some - but I think there are just as many who are fully able to think for themselves (without further education), but choose to devote little time to it for various reasons. Maybe they were never good at it. Maybe their parents made academics out to be pertentious and useless. Maybe they're actually well-educated but just ascribe to certain schools of thought. Renee Descartes, for instance, once wrote that the only phrase he could know was true beyond the shadow of a doubt was "I think, therefore I am." Seems a demoralizing level of uncertainty there, doesn't it?
Edit: Also, a high number of people have devoted a high amount of time to keeping their families and themselves fed, clothed and with a roof over their heads. When you devote all your time to these things - or when you clearly see that your parents are doing so, doesn't a lot of philosophical thinking seem a bit beside the point? I'm a math guy, and people often ask me "how are you going to use that?" The question doesn't bother me - but it bothers many to the point that they choose not to learn it. I don't agree with this reasoning, but its out there and hard to dispel - and it is sound reasoning, from a certain point of view.
On August 29 2012 22:01 Highlow wrote:
I like to think that religious people are equally smart as anyone else, they've just been taught by their parents that religion is true or they haven't thought enough about the question "is there are god?".
I highly doubt how much philosophy you've read and actually if you find it difficult to conceive of a school of thought where God can exist. Just look to the Descartes quote above, and think for yourself - how can you be so sure a concept so complicated as a godless world must be absolutely true (to the point where you refer to belief in God as "lack of thought"), when Descartes finds he can only be certain that he exists?
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Children who don't think aren't stupid, children who don't think are children.
Why impose critical thinking on children before its necessary?
Why burden them with contemplation when they are just as content to chase the wind for awhile?
When I was young, I asked a lot of questions and my father was unable to answer them, so I stopped asking till I was able to answer them myself. I didn't need to know how the world worked, I was much more interested in Middle Earth and Gotham City than in the real world. And fiction was ever more interesting than school books.
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i don't think it's a good idea to teach kids critical thinking. They can always learn it later, which they do at high school. Also, sometimes asking why can bring about conflict.
Like for example, kid asks why he gets detention, teacher says because those are the rules.
Kid asks why those rules and consequences are there, teacher answers because it's a way to provide discipline and control. Kid asks why discipline and control are needed, teacher answers because it trains self control in kids, teach them what is right and wrong and instill social values.
Kid asks why kids need self control, know rights and wrongs and have social values. Teacher (getting annoyed), answers because self control can help us overcome obstacles, achieve and contain some of our negative emotions. Kids need to know rights and wrongs and have social values because it is essential in order to fit in with society.
Kid asks why kids need to...
Teacher, "shut up and do your homework"
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On August 29 2012 22:41 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 22:23 EnE wrote:
I disagree, philosophy is in vain when it comes to coping existentially, kids who never think about it are lucky. I wish I didn't have hyper critical thinking myself, I probably never would have climbed into the figuritive pit of depression. Ignorance is bliss? Let's not keep children stupid just because you feel like intelligence weighs on your shoulders. Might as well tell them to live on welfare instead of working because working is harder. Come on man. Not to mention, philosophy doesn't have to bring up existential questions at a young age, in fact I'd argue that it shouldn't. But logic and critical thinking are good tools for ANYONE to have.
It doesn't have to, critical thinking and following logic through mentally brings up existential questions relatively instantaneously and the quest to answer them is a most likely vain one that has led many on the hard track through their lives to their death. Critical thinking is better than the doctrine we having being propagandized now, but far worse than if critical thinking was vastly discouraged and sentiments such as "Love and grow as part of one entity" were accepted to the point they rose to practically universal dogma.
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I agree, I don't believe it is proper to teach Bible stories in (public) primairy shools, because that just furthers religion. And even in the calsses you took, and the different faiths you learnt about, it probably didn't connect with you, and all it was was learning about religion. So now, you're grown, and you know what everyone knows about religion. That it doesn't really have anything to do with you, all it is, is a lengthy set of stories, facts and rules. All its for is to give simple answers to kids so that they'll shut up and stop asking obnoxious questions, so that they'd move on in life. It doesn't teach you what life is like (or about), it doesn't help you with your problems, it is unapprochable and completely impersonal. All it does is condemn you if you do bad stuff, and it has so many strange and cryptic rules, its like the only thing you can ever do is bad stuff.
And then people take this image I've painted of religion and start throwing bad words and names at it, saying:
[paraphrase] religion is a terrible thing that brainwashes kids and limits them
That's religion. Simply put, religion is about blindly obeying a set of wacky cryptic rules, not having any fun or living real life, and basically trying to do lots of good stuff so you can climb all the way up the holiness ladder until you reach Heaven. Working your way to God.
Now let me tell you about Christianity. Christianity is about learning to walk in a living relationship with the King of the Universe. Chrsitianity is about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and in view of how much he loves us, we turn away from wrong, and seek to love him love others and love ourselves by obeying his just and righteous decrees. It's not about how many good things you do, or how much money you make and give away, or how many prayers you recite or memorize.
There is nothing on the face of this earth that you could ever do, to actually work yourself up to God. That's the downfall of religion, it quickly devolves into petty legalism. The very flaws I outlined above, are clearly explained, taught about, and warned against time and time again in the Bible (e.g. so many instances of Jesus vs The Pharisees). religion (see, small 'r') is not about God, it's a silly fabrication of man.
Christianity however, is completely centered on the God of Love, in that, while we were all scumbags, God gave us a way out. All throughout our lives we have choice to do good and follow what is delightful and pleasing to God, but instead we are wicked in choosing to turn away from him and say 'F U, I dun need ur help, I got dis, leamme alone'.
For being dickheads and totally rejecting our father who made us and loves us, instead of punishing us putting us sick and in the flames, He came down to our pathetically small human level, and actually took the punishment we deserved upon his own son. To spare us, so that if we so choose, we could be in perfect union with the one who is called 'the lover of my soul'.
So all that wierd stuff in the Bible, those rules, and that stuff that seems to not make sense and contradict itself. Don't get too caught up on it. Most people (especially today, and on the internet) take a look at what they don't understand in the Bible and say "this is crazy, stoooopid". Then they reject it, diss it, disrespect it with their firends, and get in a high-holy circle-jerk with their firends and feel all cool about themselves because they can feel included in 'the group of people who spit on religion'. Blanketly generalizing and stereotyping all faiths into 'religion', and hating and insulting the hell outta them.
Don't be a dick, don't do that, please. An actual rational, free-thinker, would take that stuff he doesn't understand, and try and understand it! For the sake of developpment, knowledge, and wisdom, he would find someone who's qualified and capable of explaining the Bible,and ask that the stuff he doesn't understand be explained to him. Is that so hard to demand from people who call themselves open-minded (scientists!?! I'm a scientist bro, don't generalize, properly investigate the evidence and make your own opinion), that they talk to someone who knows, rather than delighting in their bigoted ignorance?
So in conclusion, you've been taught about religion. Cool beans. If you're gonna do the exercise in 'learning' properly, find someone who knows thier stuff about Christianity and bring your doubts, questions, and even problems to them. They will respect you, love you, care about you, and want to help you. Don't be conformed into being baptised and confirmed in the chruch of atheism - in my experience, instead of reasoned discourse, ~they~ (generalization on my part) tend to be dicks who demean and insult everyone who isn't one of them.
mod edit: Removed large block of text modified with 'big' tag
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@Above:
Because religious people deserve to be insulted on that basis when the subject is raised, because theism is a stupid and entirely disgustingly willfully ignorant position to hold, or claim to hold.
You should PM me if you believe you have any argument to the contrary.
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People have had bad experiences and encounters with Christianity. Yes, a lot of the time, christians themselves fall into the trap of 'religion', trying to be legaists and remember all the stuff, obey all the stuff, question none of the stuff etc. to try and gain Jesus points. Then they teach others that that is what Christianity is about - mindlessly obeying.
Please. There is a difference between that stereotype, and people who are Christians, but who wrestle with the big questions and flaws and inconsistencies there seem to be in the faith, and get a reasoned understanding of them. A lot of the time some (conservative South US, srry) christians give Christianity a bad name, but go and ask questions of the people in your university or college Christian group, and trust me, they're not dumb blind believers.
On August 30 2012 00:11 EnE wrote:
@Above:
Because religious people deserve to be insulted on that basis when the subject is raised, because theism is a stupid and entirely disgustingly willfully ignorant position to hold, or claim to hold.
You should PM me if you believe you have any argument to the contrary.
Could you please clarify what 'basis' you are refering to. You seem very angry and hateful but I don't know quite about what. Could you please clearly justify with reasons why you so violently believe what you believe. And also, it'd be nice to have it have something to do with the thread.
Discussion and conversation is good.
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On August 30 2012 00:17 EnE wrote:
@Above:
I'm aware those people exist, however what they are is simple people who are however many months away from being Atheists.
That's fascinating, could you please provide evidence for your claim? Is this within your own experience, or is it just a stereotype you've been fed to believe by terndy 'r/atheism' kids?
I have some evidence to the contrary in fact. I am one of 'those people' and have been one for more than 7 years. So, if we take 'many months' = 6 months, that means I am actually an "Atheistx14" ? Curious.
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@Above:
I'm aware those people exist, however what they are is simply people who are however many months away from being Atheists. They have some arguments for their position, and they have some questions, but their arguments are still flawed and their questions unconsolable and most likely, they're just however many conversations, internally or dialogue, from being Atheists themselves, including yourself, Sir.
And, like I said, It's not directly related to the thread, so I'd apprecciate it if you kept it to PM 
I don't doubt that after a long discussion with myself, over the course of time, you're open minded enough to no longer be a Christian. You see, your comments are fundamentally hypocritical. You make these generalizations about Atheists while telling us not to make generalizations about christians and to go searching for the Christians who make honest attempts at fair discussion. However, you've clearly not done this yourself with respect to intellectual atheists who do make input on the subject.
EDIT: You've spent too much time talking with your Christian friends and not enough time actually looking for the real Atheistic arguments. And it's based on a lot of personal experience and knowledge and my own formed opinions.
I'd be happy to see hmm if you talked on average to me once every other day, to see if I could have you an Atheist in, one month?
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As long as it's not Zizek.
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On August 30 2012 00:17 EnE wrote:@Above: I'm aware those people exist, however what they are is simply people who are however many months away from being Atheists. They have some arguments for their position, and they have some questions, but their arguments are still flawed and their questions unconsolable and most likely, they're just however many conversations, internally or dialogue, from being Atheists themselves, including yourself, Sir. And, like I said, It's not directly related to the thread, so I'd apprecciate it if you kept it to PM I don't doubt that after a long discussion with myself, over the course of time, you're open minded enough to no longer be a Christian. You see, your comments are fundamentally hypocritical. You make these generalizations about Atheists while telling us not to make generalizations about christians and to go searching for the Christians who make honest attempts at fair discussion. However, you've clearly not done this yourself with respect to intellectual atheists who do make input on the subject. EDIT: You've spent too much time talking with your Christian friends and not enough time actually looking for the real Atheistic arguments. And it's based on a lot of personal experience and knowledge and my own formed opinions. I'd be happy to see hmm if you talked on average to me once every other day, to see if I could have you an Atheist in, one month?
Way too fucking cocky, good luck with that one. I also laugh at how you say you want to keep it to pm then just keep discussing it here, l.o.l.
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We already teach children critical thinking through science and math. I don't see why philosophy should added to this considering that there's never a definite answer there, and if the whole point is to "discuss critically", then we have Literature for that. You may point out that most students struggle in these subjects anyways or that the school doesn't do a good job teaching these subjects, but then what makes you think they will for philosophy?
To me, the benefits of philosophy is already being taught through literature, math, and science. Maybe as an elective, but students will probably just take it to boost their GPA.
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I think I really worded this badly and some people didn't seem to get the point. I guess I shouldn't have used the word "philosophy" when I was talking more about teaching critical thinking to children. I didn't mean we should make children think about hard questions such as what happens after death, just teach them to try and use their own brains and not just blindingly accept anything that some authority figure has to say.
After all this was just one of my many thoughts and I guess I started another Christianity debate, yay me. I didn't claim as a fact that "dumber" people just think less, it was just a theory of mine I wanted to share and hear your opinions.
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There seems to be this misunderstanding that children who ask a lot of questions grow up to be critical thinkers. Every child (statistically speaking) is curious about the world. And every child goes through a phase where they ask tons of questions, sometimes just to annoy people. Whywhywhywhywhy? And just because you ask questions as an adult doesn't make you a great philosopher, it makes you maybe a bit deeper than the average person but that's it. Some people in this thread should definitely tone down their ego in my humble opinion.
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EPT
