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I opened a nice looking drama thread on TL, and got to see a Destiny screenshot. Cute. But the thread is huge. How did such a thread get so big so fast? I investigate and what do I see, but Destiny defending his word choice. Oh my. What...what is he saying? And he’s sniping at a mod as well? Not the best choice. More bothersome than anything was that it was only two TL mods that were really coming out strongly against Destiny on the argument front. Well, time to test a theory. My theory: people on the internet have no idea how little racial slurs are tolerated in modern America.
I’m not one for writing letters (once to the current president, and once a missive to a TL moderator regarding a moderation decision). It’s typically not a rewarding experience. Mostly I tend to write things and then close the window before I send, bringing some Abe Lincoln into the modern era (his desks were full of unsent letters). But something about the word choice struck me. Gook? What an odd choice of word. The only time I’ve really heard it has been in Vietnam movies (the word originated in the Philippines, but really ‘came of age’ as it were during the Vietnam war).
It was the word choice and the ‘explanation’ that finally made me push the send button to Razer. I’ve heard my dad put out some classics in his time (the one I remember most being his use of ‘nigger 500’ to describe the Dan Ryan Expressway in my hometown, Chicago). Shit always bothered me. Finally we had to have a little intervention, and explain that we couldn’t bring people to the house and couldn’t bring him places if he talked like that.
Perhaps it is this overly paternalistic part of me that made me write, the need to just say ‘no, this is not acceptable in society.’ But I felt it needed to be said. I felt that Destiny, and the voices defending him in that thread ought to hear it from some authority, that this was simply wrong. But who is an authority in Starcraft? Clearly the TL mods were not exactly getting the best of it-not that they weren’t trying, just that there were many in the opposing view.
I accept that maybe it hurts esports a bit, and in a different case I might have acted differently. But Destiny is a player known for his attitude, his strong language choices, and he was chosen by Quantic in what I viewed as a cynical choice to accept his impolitic language and attitudes due to his popularity. Perhaps I misjudged. But I truly believe that writing Razer was the best choice available.
So I wrote Razer. I felt the emotion leave my body. The frustration released, as it so often does when you write something down. I go back to check the TL thread. As expected, Destiny was banned for attacking the moderators.
They send you an auto-message, an acknowledgement of receipt. Later the next day, a brief message “Thanks for taking the time to email Razer regarding this incident. We are aware of Destiny’s actions, and will review this matter and take appropriate action..”
Then today I see he has left Quantic. I presume there were others. I wonder how many. Did I damage esports? I did what I thought was right.
But for the record, it wasn’t about esports.
 
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there's been so much esports hate in blogs recently. what gives.
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On May 04 2012 19:33 Fishgle wrote:
there's been so much esports hate in blogs recently. what gives.
Not hating, just noting that they were unrelated (my writing to Razer and esports). I watch both SC (love me some Sayle) and SC2, so I would say I am a fan of esports. Many Destiny supporters were indicating that esports was behind the petitioning. I just didn't like the word usage or his defense of it or the opinions in the thread. Guess I wasn't clear enough :/
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...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he gets featured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race.
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Thanks for posting a clear and concise reasoning behind why you sent an email to Razer. This is much more useful to me as a person who wants to understand things better as opposed to the mindless hate and bandwagoning going on in the other threads related to this.
For what it's worth, I think you emailed them with the right intentions, regardless of whether it's damaged "esports". Was it the right thing to do? Who knows.
Realistically, is it a good thing for a professional team with sponsors who have a public obligation to be moral be associated with someone who has and is using racist insults, justified behind a veil of entitlement and ignorance? Of course it isn't.
A guy in the UK was jailed recently for racist comments on twitter. The majority of society no longer accepts racism, and agree with it or not, sponsors have an obligation to reflect morals in the decisions they make.
Is a sponsored player making racist remarks bad for the gaming scene? Yes.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I don't like the language destiny used, nor do I like his defense of it on TL. That being said, justice was meted out-- he was banned and his stream unfeatured for the duration of that ban.
I feel like when people take justice into their own hands like this... I feel like something bad happens. I feel that we become something baser, something worse. You may be able to tell off your dad and make him shape up, but he's your dad. If you don't like Destiny, don't watch his stream. I don't! I have no problem avoiding his stream.
When people jokingly talk about witch-hunts and pitchforks, I think about what witch-hunts were actually like. I think about the horrors of mob mentality, the justice of the mobs. And I think that you did this to feel better about yourself. Destiny isn't your father. If you don't support him, that's fine, don't support him.
I guess I'm having trouble expressing exactly what I find *wrong* about this sort of thing, but I do truly feel like what you did is bad. Sure, it'll hurt esports and the Sc2 community that Razer might drop quantic or destiny or whatever, but I feel like what you did makes us less like civilized men and more like angry savages. Less like what we ought to be, and more like what our baser instincts make us.
You don't have my hatred or derision. You have my sympathy and pity.
I hope you understand.
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On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he getsfeatured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race. Dude, the whole point of this blog is that he didn't do it to defend the esports or TL community in any way. It's possible to have principles that aren't "esports principles" or "TL principles".
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On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he getsfeatured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race.
All I've ever done is watch. They are bad words. No quotes. They add nothing positive to anything. In my opinion. Not surprisingly, Razer agrees with me.
What does FFS mean?
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Player uses bad word. Sensitive kids (as mature adults can usually let things like this go without making a big deal out of nothing) online act as couch heroes and write sponsors, which is known to be the abslute worst thing you can do. If you for some reason is so overly offended by his choice of words, mail him or mail quantic about it. DON'T MAIL SPONSORS.
What's even worse is that you did something really dumb (dumb in the sense that it ruins the fun for everyone just so you can feel high on your horse in not accepting bad words form a player of a game), and you write this blog post as if you're proud of it. Ugh.
EDIT: updated it to sound less like a "moron".
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On May 04 2012 19:50 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he getsfeatured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race. All I've ever done is watch. They are bad words. No quotes. They add nothing positive to anything. In my opinion. Not surprisingly, Razer agrees with me. What does FFS mean?
FFS typically stands for "for fuck's sake" but it could also mean "furry friendly squirrels"-- though I think in this context he meant the former definition.
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Personally I don't think that writing directly to sponsors is a good idea. It's like when two kids are fighting and one of them runs to its mother and complains. It just shows that the involved parties can't solve their issues on their own. Someone has to call a higher instance to solve the problem for them. In the end it hurts everyone involved. The community is oversensitive, Razer and Quantic get bad reputation and Destiny is a racist.
Also the problem with writing sponsors is that it most likely harms the players that still get sponsored by these companies and who possibly are dependent on that money. If the companies get the impression that ESPORTS causes too much bad reputation since all they get is drama emails they might just pull out of this "business".
I just fail to see how this stuff benefits anyone.
Edit: To clarify a bit after reading the other responses: I don't support Destiny or racism in any way, I just don't think emailing sponsors is a good way of solving problems in this community.
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On May 04 2012 19:48 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't like the language destiny used, nor do I like his defense of it on TL. That being said, justice was meted out-- he was banned and his stream unfeatured for the duration of that ban.
I feel like when people take justice into their own hands like this... I feel like something bad happens. I feel that we become something baser, something worse. You may be able to tell off your dad and make him shape up, but he's your dad. If you don't like Destiny, don't watch his stream. I don't! I have no problem avoiding his stream.
When people jokingly talk about witch-hunts and pitchforks, I think about what witch-hunts were actually like. I think about the horrors of mob mentality, the justice of the mobs. And I think that you did this to feel better about yourself. Destiny isn't your father. If you don't support him, that's fine, don't support him.
I guess I'm having trouble expressing exactly what I find *wrong* about this sort of thing, but I do truly feel like what you did is bad. Sure, it'll hurt esports and the Sc2 community that Razer might drop quantic or destiny or whatever, but I feel like what you did makes us less like civilized men and more like angry savages. Less like what we ought to be, and more like what our baser instincts make us.
You don't have my hatred or derision. You have my sympathy and pity.
I hope you understand.
I understand what you are saying. I thought I should write down my entire mentality (as best I could reconstruct it). No one else was, even though clearly there were other people offended.
We will have to agree to disagree on whether I was wrong. But I respect your telling me I was wrong.
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On May 04 2012 19:49 munchmunch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he getsfeatured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race. Dude, the whole point of this blog is that he didn't do it to defend the esports or TL community in any way. It's possible to have principles that aren't "esports principles" or "TL principles".
LOL it's not about e-sports? in that case, write destiny a letter and kindly tell him how deeply offended you are.
but when you call a major sponsor of an E-Sport (razer).. and make a big deal out of something that we could have moved on from, you hurt everybody. whether you like it or not, this is about "e-sports"..
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On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he getsfeatured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race.
...*random swear, indicating I'm smart and know what's up*
if people are upset that destiny used those words...okay. Try and get him to change it, and write to the person with his paycheck. Those people then take a reasonable action, given that one of their employees or person that they are funding is swearing, yet simultaneously being presented as a public case.
I have about 1.5 times your post count. Post count doesn't matter.
people like you...make me feel sad inside.
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On May 04 2012 19:49 munchmunch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he getsfeatured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race. Dude, the whole point of this blog is that he didn't do it to defend the esports or TL community in any way. It's possible to have principles that aren't "esports principles" or "TL principles".
LOL it's not about e-sports? in that case, write destiny a letter and kindly tell him how deeply offended you are.
but when you call a major sponsor of an E-Sport (razer).. and make a big deal out of something that we could have moved on from, you hurt everybody. whether you like it or not, this is about "e-sports"..
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United States24615 Posts
"fuck you" ?
"lose faith in the human race"?
"like angry savages"?
"you have my sympathy and pity"?
"sensitive kids"?
"you did something really dumb"?
You can disagree with the OP on the issues brought up in this thread without overreacting and/or coming across like a moron, you know.
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On May 04 2012 19:51 Tobberoth wrote:
Player uses bad word. Sensitive kids online act as couch heroes and write sponsors, which is known to be the abslute worst thing you can do. If you for some reason is so overly offended by his choice of words, mail him or mail quantic about it. DON'T MAIL SPONSORS.
What's even worse is that you did something really dumb, and you write this blog post as if you're proud of it. Ugh.
He said he didn't care. Quantic was pretty clear they didn't care, as I tried to explain. Whether it was dumb...well, I disagree.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On May 04 2012 19:56 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:48 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't like the language destiny used, nor do I like his defense of it on TL. That being said, justice was meted out-- he was banned and his stream unfeatured for the duration of that ban.
I feel like when people take justice into their own hands like this... I feel like something bad happens. I feel that we become something baser, something worse. You may be able to tell off your dad and make him shape up, but he's your dad. If you don't like Destiny, don't watch his stream. I don't! I have no problem avoiding his stream.
When people jokingly talk about witch-hunts and pitchforks, I think about what witch-hunts were actually like. I think about the horrors of mob mentality, the justice of the mobs. And I think that you did this to feel better about yourself. Destiny isn't your father. If you don't support him, that's fine, don't support him.
I guess I'm having trouble expressing exactly what I find *wrong* about this sort of thing, but I do truly feel like what you did is bad. Sure, it'll hurt esports and the Sc2 community that Razer might drop quantic or destiny or whatever, but I feel like what you did makes us less like civilized men and more like angry savages. Less like what we ought to be, and more like what our baser instincts make us.
You don't have my hatred or derision. You have my sympathy and pity.
I hope you understand. I understand what you are saying. I thought I should write down my entire mentality (as best I could reconstruct it). No one else was, even though clearly there were other people offended. We will have to agree to disagree on whether I was wrong. But I respect your telling me I was wrong.
I don't mind that you wrote the actual blog post. Whether or not you write the blog post doesn't change the letter you wrote. In fact, it's better you wrote this since we can have a discussion on the topic!
Even assuming a total ambivalence towards the health of esports (which is the only reasonable assumption on which to begin this statement, I believe) I don't like what you did. I don't like the idea of the general public getting involved with sponsors and things like that, writing letters and boycotting. I may have a bit of a double standard on this, though-- I feel sympathetic towards people who boycott companies that lobby for certain internet bills like SOPA, and that's basically the same as this. Pressuring a supporter seems like an indirect way to get things done. In fact, the very FACT that we had to boycott COMPANIES to stop SOPA (rather than simply asking our government, which is supposed to be a democracy...) is an indication that something has gone horribly wrong.
In this extended metaphor, we're clearly not asserting our political voting power properly and end up arguing with a corporation rather than the agent (our government)-- and in that way, we are denying it agency.
Your father was racist around you and your mother, and around your friends. He was in your life-- you had a right to do what you did.
Destiny, though? He's a guy with a webshow. To get rid of him, all you have to do is NOT tune into his stream. I think your right to assert your economic influence to coerce others is limited to people who directly impact your life and/or can't be easily avoided.
Destiny is easily avoided.
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On May 04 2012 20:00 micronesia wrote:
"like angry savages"?
"you have my sympathy and pity"?
You can disagree with the OP on the issues brought up in this thread without overreacting and/or coming across like a moron, you know.
I'd like to note that there was context around both of those. I mentioned that we became less like civilized men and more like angry savages, not that we actually become angry savages. For the latter, I was explicitly stating that my negative emotions towards him were not malicious. I could have phrased that better though-- especially since "savages" is a racially charged word and "pity" is a bit strong.
I believe I come across as inarticulate, perhaps, but not moronic. I put a fair amount of effort into my posts in this thread.
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On May 04 2012 20:03 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:51 Tobberoth wrote:
Player uses bad word. Sensitive kids online act as couch heroes and write sponsors, which is known to be the abslute worst thing you can do. If you for some reason is so overly offended by his choice of words, mail him or mail quantic about it. DON'T MAIL SPONSORS.
What's even worse is that you did something really dumb, and you write this blog post as if you're proud of it. Ugh. He said he didn't care. Quantic was pretty clear they didn't care, as I tried to explain. Whether it was dumb...well, I disagree.
I don't care either, like a ton of other people. Razer probably don't care either. A minority of sensitve people care, like you, and they ruin it for everyone else since Razer DOES care when people mail them about it, making it into a big deal. Do you think Razer are blind? They knew what they went into when sponsoring Quantic who has a player like Destiny on their team.
Result of going "Destiny, I really dislike your use of words":
* You get to let people know you don't like this kind of word usage.
* If enough people complain, destiny stops doing it (he makes money from his fans), or quantic does something about it.
* Destiny can keep using bad words on his stream now and again.
Result of mailing razor:
* Forcing razor to take a strong stance, pulling money away from e-sports and hurting the scene. Less good content for everyone.
* You get to write a blog post about how civilized you are. Yay.
* Destiny can keep using bad words on his stream, he just has a harder time to compete competitively, which is bad because he's a good player who is fun to watch.
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On May 04 2012 19:56 uNiGNoRe wrote:
Personally I don't think that writing directly to sponsors is a good idea. It's like when two kids are fighting and one of them runs to its mother and complains. It just shows that the involved parties can't solve their issues on their own. Someone has to call a higher instance to solve the problem for them. In the end it hurts everyone involved. The community is oversensitive, Razer and Quantic get bad reputation and Destiny is a racist.
Also the problem with writing sponsors is that it most likely harms the players that still get sponsored by these companies and who possibly are dependent on that money. If the companies get the impression that ESPORTS causes too much bad reputation since all they get is drama emails they might just pull out of this "business".
I just fail to see how this stuff benefits anyone.
Edit: To clarify a bit after reading the other responses: I don't support Destiny or racism in any way, I just don't think emailing sponsors is a good way of solving problems in this community.
I think that is a totally fair opinion to have. I felt there were extenuating circumstances that justified it, but of course the actor always does.
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On May 04 2012 20:00 micronesia wrote:
"fuck you" ?
"lose faith in the human race"?
"like angry savages"?
"you have my sympathy and pity"?
"sensitive kids"?
"you did something really dumb"?
You can disagree with the OP on the issues brought up in this thread without overreacting and/or coming across like a moron, you know.
"fuck you" is my initial reaction to someone actually being proud of deterring a major sponsor from SC2. Sorry?
On May 04 2012 19:58 Praetorial wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he getsfeatured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race. ...*random swear, indicating I'm smart and know what's up* if people are upset that destiny used those words...okay. Try and get him to change it, and write to the person with his paycheck. Those people then take a reasonable action, given that one of their employees or person that they are funding is swearing, yet simultaneously being presented as a public case. I have about 1.5 times your post count. Post count doesn't matter. people like you...make me feel sad inside.
I respect the OP and others opinion that certain words should not be said by community figures. There were multiple courses of action people could have taken rather than mailing one of the largest esport-sponsors with a smug smile on your face thinking you're doing something important, when in reality you are just deterring future sponsorships/money/tournaments etc.
When people try to justify / be proud of deterring major sponsors from my favorite game I get legimately angry. Can you all stop being so self centered and realize some of this is not your business and if you don't like his stream/team don't watch him? *poof* now he doesn't exist to you! you never have to deal with him again!
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I think the OP is pretty aware of the results of mailing razor, and pleased with how things turned out. Assuming he doesn't really care about the e-sports scene, he's caused some serious repercussions (or helped to cause them) in a direction that he likes. Granted, Destiny is still gonna keep swearing and using bad words, but now he'll have a smaller income, and Razer and Quantic (and probably other groups) will be more careful about Destiny and any other players with potential baggage.
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
That being said, he can speak for himself. I don't think his position is inherently unreasonable-- I just think he's wrong.
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On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words?
It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective.
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On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective.
Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that.
If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
My chief concern with his actions are not whether or not he was indeed combating racism, or whether or not he was hurting esports, but rather, whether he had a moral right to do what he did the way he did it. I don't believe that complaining to a group that sponsored a group that employed Destiny was something that he could morally do given that any interaction with Destiny is easily avoided-- Destiny is not a major pro-gamer and his stream is very easy to not watch.
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On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused.
Are you defending gook as a racial slur? Because I'm asian and it means absolutely nothing to me.
I appreciate the gesture, but I really don't need people to get offended on my behalf. :/
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On May 04 2012 20:09 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:03 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 19:51 Tobberoth wrote:
Player uses bad word. Sensitive kids online act as couch heroes and write sponsors, which is known to be the abslute worst thing you can do. If you for some reason is so overly offended by his choice of words, mail him or mail quantic about it. DON'T MAIL SPONSORS.
What's even worse is that you did something really dumb, and you write this blog post as if you're proud of it. Ugh. He said he didn't care. Quantic was pretty clear they didn't care, as I tried to explain. Whether it was dumb...well, I disagree. I don't care either, like a ton of other people. Razer probably don't care either. A minority of sensitve people care, like you, and they ruin it for everyone else since Razer DOES care when people mail them about it, making it into a big deal. Do you think Razer are blind? They knew what they went into when sponsoring Quantic who has a player like Destiny on their team. Result of going "Destiny, I really dislike your use of words": * You get to let people know you don't like this kind of word usage. * If enough people complain, destiny stops doing it (he makes money from his fans), or quantic does something about it. * Destiny can keep using bad words on his stream now and again. Result of mailing razor: * Forcing razor to take a strong stance, pulling money away from e-sports and hurting the scene. Less good content for everyone. * You get to write a blog post about how civilized you are. Yay. * Destiny can keep using bad words on his stream, he just has a harder time to compete competitively, which is bad because he's a good player who is fun to watch.
Razer could just ignore my email if they are truly agnostic. I am only one person. Clearly they either (a) felt strongly about it or (b) received a lot of mail about it. How much is enough for (b), I could not say. I don't know who else mailed, or what they said. There are too many unknowns for your assumption. But I doubt Razer wants to be associated in any way with racial slurs in their sponsorships. Sponsorships are about forming positive emotional bonds with your brand.
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On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/curse word?qsrc=2446
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swear_word
Not surprised you can't comprehend context either considering your justification of your actions..
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On May 04 2012 20:26 thesideshow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused. Are you defending gook as a racial slur? Because I'm asian and it means absolutely nothing to me. I appreciate the gesture, but I really don't need people to get offended on my behalf. :/
I didn't know I was defending anything. I would say I was defining. Gook is a racial slur. I am glad it doesn't offend you.
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On May 04 2012 20:27 -Exalt- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/curse word?qsrc=2446http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swear_wordNot surprised you can't comprehend context either considering your justification of your actions..
I guess you are correct. I would say calling it a swear makes it sound similar to damn, removing the racial implication.
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On May 04 2012 20:27 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:09 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:03 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 19:51 Tobberoth wrote:
Player uses bad word. Sensitive kids online act as couch heroes and write sponsors, which is known to be the abslute worst thing you can do. If you for some reason is so overly offended by his choice of words, mail him or mail quantic about it. DON'T MAIL SPONSORS.
What's even worse is that you did something really dumb, and you write this blog post as if you're proud of it. Ugh. He said he didn't care. Quantic was pretty clear they didn't care, as I tried to explain. Whether it was dumb...well, I disagree. I don't care either, like a ton of other people. Razer probably don't care either. A minority of sensitve people care, like you, and they ruin it for everyone else since Razer DOES care when people mail them about it, making it into a big deal. Do you think Razer are blind? They knew what they went into when sponsoring Quantic who has a player like Destiny on their team. Result of going "Destiny, I really dislike your use of words": * You get to let people know you don't like this kind of word usage. * If enough people complain, destiny stops doing it (he makes money from his fans), or quantic does something about it. * Destiny can keep using bad words on his stream now and again. Result of mailing razor: * Forcing razor to take a strong stance, pulling money away from e-sports and hurting the scene. Less good content for everyone. * You get to write a blog post about how civilized you are. Yay. * Destiny can keep using bad words on his stream, he just has a harder time to compete competitively, which is bad because he's a good player who is fun to watch. Razer could just ignore my email if they are truly agnostic. I am only one person. Clearly they either (a) felt strongly about it or (b) received a lot of mail about it. How much is enough for (b), I could not say. I don't know who else mailed, or what they said. There are too many unknowns for your assumption. But I doubt Razer wants to be associated in any way with racial slurs in their sponsorships. Sponsorships are about forming positive emotional bonds with your brand.
I didn't say your single mail made Razer take this stance. But you contributed to it, which is just as bad. You're also completely incorrect about what Razer and other sponsors want. What they want is product placement, they want attention. Sure, they want positive attention, which is why they reacted to PC mails, but the reason they are sponsoring a team which hires a player like Destiny is because Destiny is really popular, regardless of how BM he can be. Putting the razer brand on his stream is a good idea because he has a ton of fans looking at that stream. As long as no one makes a big deal out of it, Razer would rather have all the people watching Destiny buy their products than having Destiny stop using gook/nigger etc as curse words (and yes, they are curse words. He isn't using them towards people of specific races, just like Orb used "dumb nigger" towards white guy and lost his job for it).
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On May 04 2012 20:31 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:27 -Exalt- wrote:On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/curse word?qsrc=2446http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swear_wordNot surprised you can't comprehend context either considering your justification of your actions.. I guess you are correct. I would say calling it a swear makes it sound similar to damn, removing the racial implication.
That's because there is no racial implication. You have to realize the massive difference between:
A) Going up to a chinese person in the street saying "You disgusting gook, get out of my country".
B) Losing a ladder game to cheese to a random person you don't know and saying "Stop cheesing me, gook".
Yeah, the word has a racial background, that's the history of it. Words and meanings change though, and when you use a racial term as a general swear word, that's all you mean with it. It's people hearing it and making a big deal out of it who add these racial implications.
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Yes, absolutely they want the popularity, and of course they want the ROI. But what I think you also see is that they don't want the racial swearing (I will update my terminology). Now I suppose you could say that they knew and didn't care until they got email about it. Or you could say they didn't ask where he got his fans from, and when they saw it they were not pleased. I don't know. But you assume it is the one and not the other. I like to think it is the other, but I am ok either way.
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On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Using racial slurs is real racism. If you grow up in a fairly homogenous culture without much racism, this may be hard to believe, but it's true.
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On May 04 2012 20:40 munchmunch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Using racial slurs is real racism. If you grow up in a fairly homogenous culture without much racism, this may be hard to believe, but it's true.
You're wrong, refer to my previous post to see the distinction. I'd say it's the other way around, if you live in a culture without racism, you might not realize what real racism is, and think it's just what words you use when you swear.
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On May 04 2012 20:36 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:31 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:27 -Exalt- wrote:On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/curse word?qsrc=2446http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swear_wordNot surprised you can't comprehend context either considering your justification of your actions.. I guess you are correct. I would say calling it a swear makes it sound similar to damn, removing the racial implication. That's because there is no racial implication. You have to realize the massive difference between: A) Going up to a chinese person in the street saying "You disgusting gook, get out of my country". B) Losing a ladder game to cheese to a random person you don't know and saying "Stop cheesing me, gook". Yeah, the word has a racial background, that's the history of it. Words and meanings change though, and when you use a racial term as a general swear word, that's all you mean with it. It's people hearing it and making a big deal out of it who add these racial implications.
I suppose that is one way to look at it. But you speak to be heard. There are plenty of racially neutral swear words to choose from. But he chose one that was not. As I note in the blog, part of what made me write was the choice of word. Pretty unique in the modern lexicon. Plenty of swears would fit, but he chose that one.
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This is what happens when a community inflates due to an overhyped game that bases its fame on a successful predecessor and there are no:
1. Join requirements.
2. Intelligence requirements.
3. Skill requirements.
4. Contribution requirements.
And only basic behavior requirements. This is the definition of the mass that worships "esports," not necessarily the mass that plays the game. The vocal minority, hopefully. In short, when you grab a large chunk of a population with a marketing scheme, you're bound to catch a few hundred thousand morons en route. And those morons have something to say, god damn it!
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On May 04 2012 20:44 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:36 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:31 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:27 -Exalt- wrote:On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/curse word?qsrc=2446http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swear_wordNot surprised you can't comprehend context either considering your justification of your actions.. I guess you are correct. I would say calling it a swear makes it sound similar to damn, removing the racial implication. That's because there is no racial implication. You have to realize the massive difference between: A) Going up to a chinese person in the street saying "You disgusting gook, get out of my country". B) Losing a ladder game to cheese to a random person you don't know and saying "Stop cheesing me, gook". Yeah, the word has a racial background, that's the history of it. Words and meanings change though, and when you use a racial term as a general swear word, that's all you mean with it. It's people hearing it and making a big deal out of it who add these racial implications. I suppose that is one way to look at it. But you speak to be heard. There are plenty of racially neutral swear words to choose from. But he chose one that was not. As I note in the blog, part of what made me write was the choice of word. Pretty unique in the modern lexicon. Plenty of swears would fit, but he chose that one.
I agree with you there, that's the reaso why I personally don't use swear words derived from racial slurs... I personally don't see the problem with doing so, but there's a billion curse words to use, so why use the most controversial ones. If I can pick between "asshole" and "nigger", I would have no reason to pick "nigger", other than the fact I want the effect gotten from the racial history of the word.
So I don't use those words, and I prefer when people do not use them. That doesn't mean I have to "combat racism" or ruin a competitive climate for it. I can just state my opinion, and hope people care and respect it... just like in any other situation.
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On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective.
I do not control the police. I did not cross the police molesting anyone on my way home. I do have some insignificantly small amount of say in this world to email someone, and I took it.
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On May 04 2012 19:27 willll wrote:
Did I damage esports? I did what I thought was right.
That's your right.
And I think you were a moron for doing so, and that you were wrong, and that it was not right.
And that's just my opinion.
Maybe that damages esports?
No, because it's not about eSports.
It's about punishing the appropriate person.
The person who did it? Destiny.
Do you think he did something wrong? Yes.
Then seek to punish him.
How?
- Getting him kicked off the team.
- Getting him kicked from TL to advertise his stream.
- Getting him kicked from Facebook / Twitter / his streaming service for promoting his stream.
But what did you do?
- Seek to punish his team.
- Seek to punish the whole sport.
Without giving them time to give an appropriate reaction.
So no, it's not 'about esports' - it's about doing something moronic, because you are dumb, and aren't trying to punish the right party, but instead overreact and do something stupid, and end up punishing the wrong people / organizations.
Your reaction makes sense if, and only if, his team release a statement saying they have looked into it, and is fine with it - OR - a long time (like, you know, 2 days at least) passes without getting any reaction from them.
Did what you do make sense? No.
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On May 04 2012 20:53 willll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. I do not control the police. I did not cross the police molesting anyone on my way home. I do have some insignificantly small amount of say in this world to email someone, and I took it.
Instead of wiriting a mail to a sponsor (which again, punishes the wrong people), why not spend that energy in voting and creating discussion? The US is a democratic country for all I know, if you feel strongly about racism, make a difference where it matters... which is not the way destiny used the word "gook" on his stream.
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I find it bizarre that people here are criticising the OP for complaining to Razer.
Destiny apparently likes being a douche, so he's not going to stop, and enough people apparently find it amusing to watch him be a douche. Quantic apparently didn't care, so if the OP wants to get rid of the doucheyness, he has to write to Razer - who apparently do care.
Instead of complaining to the OP, who (similar to Destiny) isn't going to change his views, why not write to Razer yourselves, and tell them how much you like Destiny, and are happy that he's being sponsored, and that you don't at all mind their association with someone who spouts racist slurs at the slightest provocation.
Well, I guess you can tell I'm not fond of Destiny. Still, it's not like the OP is the only one allowed to write to Razer.
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On May 04 2012 20:48 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:44 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:36 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:31 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:27 -Exalt- wrote:On May 04 2012 20:20 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Gook is not a swear word. Not at all. I don't know who told you that. If a white person is calling a white person nigger they are severely confused. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/curse word?qsrc=2446http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swear_wordNot surprised you can't comprehend context either considering your justification of your actions.. I guess you are correct. I would say calling it a swear makes it sound similar to damn, removing the racial implication. That's because there is no racial implication. You have to realize the massive difference between: A) Going up to a chinese person in the street saying "You disgusting gook, get out of my country". B) Losing a ladder game to cheese to a random person you don't know and saying "Stop cheesing me, gook". Yeah, the word has a racial background, that's the history of it. Words and meanings change though, and when you use a racial term as a general swear word, that's all you mean with it. It's people hearing it and making a big deal out of it who add these racial implications. I suppose that is one way to look at it. But you speak to be heard. There are plenty of racially neutral swear words to choose from. But he chose one that was not. As I note in the blog, part of what made me write was the choice of word. Pretty unique in the modern lexicon. Plenty of swears would fit, but he chose that one. I agree with you there, that's the reaso why I personally don't use swear words derived from racial slurs... I personally don't see the problem with doing so, but there's a billion curse words to use, so why use the most controversial ones. If I can pick between "asshole" and "nigger", I would have no reason to pick "nigger", other than the fact I want the effect gotten from the racial history of the word.
So I don't use those words, and I prefer when people do not use them. That doesn't mean I have to "combat racism" or ruin a competitive climate for it. I can just state my opinion, and hope people care and respect it... just like in any other situation.
I am glad to see we could agree on something =) I doubt little old me (or even however many hundreds of little old me's) will ruin the competitive climate. I hope if you become sponsored (or if you are!) you will remember what you said. As for the rest, well, thank you for the early morning conversation.
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On May 04 2012 20:43 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:40 munchmunch wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Using racial slurs is real racism. If you grow up in a fairly homogenous culture without much racism, this may be hard to believe, but it's true. You're wrong, refer to my previous post to see the distinction. I'd say it's the other way around, if you live in a culture without racism, you might not realize what real racism is, and think it's just what words you use when you swear.
I have lived in areas with racism. Oakland, CA being the most extreme. I've also lived in homogeneous areas; in particular, I grew up in rural Canada, where racism wasn't a problem simply because most people were white, and the few people who weren't white didn't differ significantly from their neighbours in terms of economic or social class. At that time I thought political correctness was ridiculous, and didn't hesitate to tell people that.
What changed my opinion? Living in Victoria, BC, where hard racism is not that prevalent, but soft racism (tolerance of racist language and racial stereotypes) is extreme. I consider soft racism to be real racism for two reasons. The first is that soft racism enables hard racism, but creating an environment where bigots feel comfortable acting on their racism, and people in minority groups are intimidated and less able to stand up for themselves. The second reason is that people who don't intend to be racist often still act slightly differently towards people in minority groups. When somone is being treated differently everywhere they go, even by well-meaning people, it can add up to a strong message, and make someone feel very unwelcome or uncomfortable.
Edit: to elaborate on what changed my opinion in Victoria, the city is fairly isolated, and many people there have roots in the city going back generations. There are also a lot of retirees, and young people who have moved into the city from the backwoods. Finally, there is a large immigrant population, which doesn't fit in well with the other residents. Most people in the city are not racist, but there are a few bad apples, and, in my opinion, not enough checks on the bad apples.
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On May 04 2012 21:04 netherh wrote:
I find it bizarre that people here are criticising the OP for complaining to Razer.
Destiny apparently likes being a douche, so he's not going to stop, and enough people apparently find it amusing to watch him be a douche. Quantic apparently didn't care, so if the OP wants to get rid of the doucheyness, he has to write to Razer - who apparently do care.
Instead of complaining to the OP, who (similar to Destiny) isn't going to change his views, why not write to Razer yourselves, and tell them how much you like Destiny, and are happy that he's being sponsored, and that you don't at all mind their association with someone who spouts racist slurs at the slightest provocation.
Well, I guess you can tell I'm not fond of Destiny. Still, it's not like the OP is the only one allowed to write to Razer.
Because of the simple fact that 5 letters whining about Destinys language has TONS more impact than 30 letters telling Razer how much you like them sponsoring Destiny. That's just how sponsoring works. I'm sure Razer loved to sponsor Destiny and would be happy with all those mail saying it's great, but they simply can't afford to ignore those 5 people whining about it since it would be devestating if people started to actually believe Razer supports racism (which they obviously don't do, sponsoring Destiny or not).
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On May 04 2012 21:05 munchmunch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:43 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:40 munchmunch wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Using racial slurs is real racism. If you grow up in a fairly homogenous culture without much racism, this may be hard to believe, but it's true. You're wrong, refer to my previous post to see the distinction. I'd say it's the other way around, if you live in a culture without racism, you might not realize what real racism is, and think it's just what words you use when you swear. I have lived in areas with racism. Oakland, CA being the most extreme. I've also lived in homogeneous areas; in particular, I grew up in rural Canada, where racism wasn't a problem simply because most people were white, and the few people who weren't white didn't differ significantly from their neighbours in terms of economic or social class. At that time I thought political correctness was ridiculous, and didn't hesitate to tell people that. What changed my opinion? Living in Victoria, BC, where hard racism is not that prevalent, but soft racism (tolerance of racist language and racial stereotypes) is extreme. I consider soft racism to be real racism for two reasons. The first is that soft racism enables hard racism, but creating an environment where bigots feel comfortable acting on their racism, and people in minority groups are intimidated and less able to stand up for themselves. The second reason is that people who don't intend to be racist often still act slightly differently towards people in minority groups. When somone is being treated differently everywhere they go, even by well-meaning people, it can add up to a strong message, and make someone feel very unwelcome or uncomfortable.
Most certainly, but that's not the issue at hand. Point is that using a racist slur as a curse word doesn't make you racist. I find it hard to imagine that even an asian person who would be offended if he was called "gook" would consider it racism is he overheard two white people calling eachother "gooks". He might consider them dumb for using that word, but probably not racist.
That's because context makes a world of difference, especially when it comes to language.
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On May 04 2012 20:58 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:53 willll wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. I do not control the police. I did not cross the police molesting anyone on my way home. I do have some insignificantly small amount of say in this world to email someone, and I took it. Instead of wiriting a mail to a sponsor (which again, punishes the wrong people), why not spend that energy in voting and creating discussion? The US is a democratic country for all I know, if you feel strongly about racism, make a difference where it matters... which is not the way destiny used the word "gook" on his stream.
Destiny left Quantic. Razer managed to cite him by name in their reply, which I like to hope means that any other damage will be minimal. Fallout thus far has been apportioned properly. I vote when it's time (not 'til November). In the meantime I assign my time as best I can. But I like to watch starcraft, so TL is where I often find myself.
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On May 04 2012 21:11 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:05 munchmunch wrote:On May 04 2012 20:43 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:40 munchmunch wrote:On May 04 2012 20:18 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 20:13 Blazinghand wrote:
I don't think he was unaware in any sense of what he was trying to do. He believes his actions are just, especially combating racism.
Question is, how can a person feel he's "combating racism" when all he's doing is telling someone to stop using swear words? It's an odd thing which seems common in the US (and possibly a ton of other countries), where people fail to care about real racism such as how police are treating african-americans etc, and instead make a big deal out of a white person calling another white person a "nigger". Just seems to me that people need to grow up and get a bit of perspective. Using racial slurs is real racism. If you grow up in a fairly homogenous culture without much racism, this may be hard to believe, but it's true. You're wrong, refer to my previous post to see the distinction. I'd say it's the other way around, if you live in a culture without racism, you might not realize what real racism is, and think it's just what words you use when you swear. I have lived in areas with racism. Oakland, CA being the most extreme. I've also lived in homogeneous areas; in particular, I grew up in rural Canada, where racism wasn't a problem simply because most people were white, and the few people who weren't white didn't differ significantly from their neighbours in terms of economic or social class. At that time I thought political correctness was ridiculous, and didn't hesitate to tell people that. What changed my opinion? Living in Victoria, BC, where hard racism is not that prevalent, but soft racism (tolerance of racist language and racial stereotypes) is extreme. I consider soft racism to be real racism for two reasons. The first is that soft racism enables hard racism, but creating an environment where bigots feel comfortable acting on their racism, and people in minority groups are intimidated and less able to stand up for themselves. The second reason is that people who don't intend to be racist often still act slightly differently towards people in minority groups. When somone is being treated differently everywhere they go, even by well-meaning people, it can add up to a strong message, and make someone feel very unwelcome or uncomfortable. Most certainly, but that's not the issue at hand. Point is that using a racist slur as a curse word doesn't make you racist. I find it hard to imagine that even an asian person who would be offended if he was called "gook" would consider it racism is he overheard two white people calling eachother "gooks". He might consider them dumb for using that word, but probably not racist. That's because context makes a world of difference, especially when it comes to language. I agree that whether or not a racial slur expresses a racial sentiment depends on context. However, I would say that any use of a racial slur contributes to a racist environment. That doesn't mean that using a racial slur is necessarily a great crime, but I think it makes it worth asking people who use racial slurs to stop. And if willll felt strongly enough about it to send an email to a sponsor (which, really, is not that great an action), then I think the action is justified.
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On May 04 2012 20:23 Blazinghand wrote:
My chief concern with his actions are not whether or not he was indeed combating racism, or whether or not he was hurting esports, but rather, whether he had a moral right to do what he did the way he did it. I don't believe that complaining to a group that sponsored a group that employed Destiny was something that he could morally do given that any interaction with Destiny is easily avoided-- Destiny is not a major pro-gamer and his stream is very easy to not watch.
There was an element of circumstance to the whole thing. No denying it. But once I had read the thread (and I read a lot of it, I must admit), I felt the urge to act. I considered writing to Quantic, and I explain why I passed. It was definitely on some level akin to turning someone in to the boss or something. I felt some revulsion at that aspect of it. But then I considered Destiny's writing in the thread, his almost bragging attitude of 'I will use whatever language I feel like because I have my own beliefs about these things'. It was definitely a factor. Anyone with that much attitude feels that they really are secure. And maybe he was? After all, when you are writing, you don't know the result in advance. Maybe he had talked it all out with Razer and they knew this sort of thing would happen and they would consider it 'part of the game', that is, the game of employing Destiny.
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On May 04 2012 21:08 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:04 netherh wrote:
I find it bizarre that people here are criticising the OP for complaining to Razer.
Destiny apparently likes being a douche, so he's not going to stop, and enough people apparently find it amusing to watch him be a douche. Quantic apparently didn't care, so if the OP wants to get rid of the doucheyness, he has to write to Razer - who apparently do care.
Instead of complaining to the OP, who (similar to Destiny) isn't going to change his views, why not write to Razer yourselves, and tell them how much you like Destiny, and are happy that he's being sponsored, and that you don't at all mind their association with someone who spouts racist slurs at the slightest provocation.
Well, I guess you can tell I'm not fond of Destiny. Still, it's not like the OP is the only one allowed to write to Razer.
Because of the simple fact that 5 letters whining about Destinys language has TONS more impact than 30 letters telling Razer how much you like them sponsoring Destiny. That's just how sponsoring works. I'm sure Razer loved to sponsor Destiny and would be happy with all those mail saying it's great, but they simply can't afford to ignore those 5 people whining about it since it would be devestating if people started to actually believe Razer supports racism (which they obviously don't do, sponsoring Destiny or not).
I'm not sure about that. I think that maybe they'd just put some pressure on Destiny to apologise and change instead. (Something he's clearly not interested in - but that's his problem).
By sponsoring Destiny, who frequently uses racial slurs, they kinda do support racism.
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On May 04 2012 19:47 Pure-SC2 wrote:
Thanks for posting a clear and concise reasoning behind why you sent an email to Razer. This is much more useful to me as a person who wants to understand things better as opposed to the mindless hate and bandwagoning going on in the other threads related to this.
For what it's worth, I think you emailed them with the right intentions, regardless of whether it's damaged "esports". Was it the right thing to do? Who knows.
Realistically, is it a good thing for a professional team with sponsors who have a public obligation to be moral be associated with someone who has and is using racist insults, justified behind a veil of entitlement and ignorance? Of course it isn't.
A guy in the UK was jailed recently for racist comments on twitter. The majority of society no longer accepts racism, and agree with it or not, sponsors have an obligation to reflect morals in the decisions they make.
Is a sponsored player making racist remarks bad for the gaming scene? Yes.
Thank you for the encouraging words-that first comment made me feel like no one would understand what I wrote at all.
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On May 04 2012 21:37 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 21:08 Tobberoth wrote:On May 04 2012 21:04 netherh wrote:
I find it bizarre that people here are criticising the OP for complaining to Razer.
Destiny apparently likes being a douche, so he's not going to stop, and enough people apparently find it amusing to watch him be a douche. Quantic apparently didn't care, so if the OP wants to get rid of the doucheyness, he has to write to Razer - who apparently do care.
Instead of complaining to the OP, who (similar to Destiny) isn't going to change his views, why not write to Razer yourselves, and tell them how much you like Destiny, and are happy that he's being sponsored, and that you don't at all mind their association with someone who spouts racist slurs at the slightest provocation.
Well, I guess you can tell I'm not fond of Destiny. Still, it's not like the OP is the only one allowed to write to Razer.
Because of the simple fact that 5 letters whining about Destinys language has TONS more impact than 30 letters telling Razer how much you like them sponsoring Destiny. That's just how sponsoring works. I'm sure Razer loved to sponsor Destiny and would be happy with all those mail saying it's great, but they simply can't afford to ignore those 5 people whining about it since it would be devestating if people started to actually believe Razer supports racism (which they obviously don't do, sponsoring Destiny or not). I'm not sure about that. I think that maybe they'd just put some pressure on Destiny to apologise and change instead. (Something he's clearly not interested in - but that's his problem). By sponsoring Destiny, who frequently uses racial slurs, they kinda do support racism.
Do you sponsor the devil if your sponsored player screams "Hell" if he stubs his toe? It's not like destiny is a racist, it's not like the money Razer sponsors him with goes to some KKK group. All they are supporting is a competitive SC2 player who uses controversial words as curse words, which some people with somwhat lacking intelligence equals with being racist because they don't understand the impact of context in what a person says.
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My response to this is largely dependent upon how many times you've written sponsors in the past. If you send messages to Monster, or SteelSeries, or Razer, or whoever the major sponsor is for your favorite team, just to let them know that you support them and thank them for their support, then sent this message to inform them about Destiny, then that's fair.
If the only contact you've had with sponsors is because of this, then I have no other way to put it than to agree with the above posters who said "fuck you." White knighting over this by directly contacting sponsors is at the same time both the most effective and WORST POSSIBLE way to deal with the incident.
Analogy time -- let's say you go to a hobby shop that just opened up. It's a group of passionate people who worked together to open up the store, because that's what they love doing, but really didn't have the money to do it. So, they borrowed money from another, much larger company involved in the same thing -- let's call them "Tazer" for argument's sake. The store cannot survive without Tazer's support, and Tazer has sent money to a lot of the similar stores in other towns as well, so their brand is well known. So you're in the store, buying some magic the gathering cards or D&D books, thankful to just have *some* place to go to talk about and buy the things you love. But, there's this one employee at the store that's just a complete dick. Let's call him "Fate". Most of the time, you don't even notice Fate. You don't interact with Fate ever, you stick with the guys you know and trust to talk to about your games and ring up your purchases. But one time, while you're in the store, you overhear some customers talking about Fate. One customer says,
"Yea, last time I was in here, Fate called me a faggot. I'm not even gay!"
"Well, were you acting like a faggot?"
"No way man, I was just totally raping his arguments for why 5th series is the best MTG series. Here, I even recorded the conversation on my phone. I'm telling everyone who comes in here about this."
Now, you overhear this conversation, you don't know either of the customers who are talking, and are not personally offended by the word rape, but man faggot rubs you the wrong way. You really didn't care much about the guy to begin with, but you do know he represents one of your favorite stores. Suddenly, Fate shows up and starts talking to the guys, saying that he doesn't give a fuck what they think, that he was pissed off, and that was the first insult that came to mind, but he's not going to apologize for who he is.
Do you:
A) Let the people who were actually insulted and affected by the slur take care of it themselves, assuming that if it's a regular thing, enough people will complain to management that they'll get fired.
B) Go to the boss of the store and say, "Fate's behavior is unacceptable for this store. I like coming here, but this guy just isn't doing you any favors," and try to get him fired that way, even when he never personally attacked you.
C) Go to Tazer, who really doesn't know what happens in the day-to-day operations of the store, and tell him that one of the employees of one of the stores they support is throwing around racial slurs, and you're not going to buy any products related to any of their stores as long as they support such an employee.
What do you think is going to happen in each case? Case A would be optimal imo, but you could make a case for B if the slander and behavior were strong enough and you were personally offended enough by it. Why, in the name of all things holy, would you choose option C and pursue the route that is most likely to get funding pulled from your favorite hobby, which is really the only way that your hobby can stay afloat? It's ridiculously selfish and short-sighted. If you go to the boss and they basically tell you to fuck off, THEN you can escalate it to the next level, because suddenly that store is a poor representation of your hobby as a whole, and you don't want to put money into that store anymore.
Getting sponsors to re-think putting money into eSports because it's seen as a bunch of kids throwing foul words around is the worst possible thing to do if you actually enjoy the content that's produced.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 21:57 ArcticFox wrote:
My response to this is largely dependent upon how many times you've written sponsors in the past. If you send messages to Monster, or SteelSeries, or Razer, or whoever the major sponsor is for your favorite team, just to let them know that you support them and thank them for their support, then sent this message to inform them about Destiny, then that's fair.
If the only contact you've had with sponsors is because of this, then I have no other way to put it than to agree with the above posters who said "fuck you." White knighting over this by directly contacting sponsors is at the same time both the most effective and WORST POSSIBLE way to deal with the incident.
Analogy time -- let's say you go to a hobby shop that just opened up. It's a group of passionate people who worked together to open up the store, because that's what they love doing, but really didn't have the money to do it. So, they borrowed money from another, much larger company involved in the same thing -- let's call them "Tazer" for argument's sake. The store cannot survive without Tazer's support, and Tazer has sent money to a lot of the similar stores in other towns as well, so their brand is well known. So you're in the store, buying some magic the gathering cards or D&D books, thankful to just have *some* place to go to talk about and buy the things you love. But, there's this one employee at the store that's just a complete dick. Let's call him "Fate". Most of the time, you don't even notice Fate. You don't interact with Fate ever, you stick with the guys you know and trust to talk to about your games and ring up your purchases. But one time, while you're in the store, you overhear some customers talking about Fate. One customer says,
"Yea, last time I was in here, Fate called me a faggot. I'm not even gay!"
"Well, were you acting like a faggot?"
"No way man, I was just totally raping his arguments for why 5th series is the best MTG series. Here, I even recorded the conversation on my phone. I'm telling everyone who comes in here about this."
Now, you overhear this conversation, you don't know either of the customers who are talking, and are not personally offended by the word rape, but man faggot rubs you the wrong way. You really didn't care much about the guy to begin with, but you do know he represents one of your favorite stores. Suddenly, Fate shows up and starts talking to the guys, saying that he doesn't give a fuck what they think, that he was pissed off, and that was the first insult that came to mind, but he's not going to apologize for who he is.
Do you:
A) Let the people who were actually insulted and affected by the slur take care of it themselves, assuming that if it's a regular thing, enough people will complain to management that they'll get fired.
B) Go to the boss of the store and say, "Fate's behavior is unacceptable for this store. I like coming here, but this guy just isn't doing you any favors," and try to get him fired that way, even when he never personally attacked you.
C) Go to Tazer, who really doesn't know what happens in the day-to-day operations of the store, and tell him that one of the employees of one of the stores they support is throwing around racial slurs, and you're not going to buy any products related to any of their stores as long as they support such an employee.
What do you think is going to happen in each case? Case A would be optimal imo, but you could make a case for B if the slander and behavior were strong enough and you were personally offended enough by it. Why, in the name of all things holy, would you choose option C and pursue the route that is most likely to get funding pulled from your favorite hobby, which is really the only way that your hobby can stay afloat? It's ridiculously selfish and short-sighted. If you go to the boss and they basically tell you to fuck off, THEN you can escalate it to the next level, because suddenly that store is a poor representation of your hobby as a whole, and you don't want to put money into that store anymore.
Getting sponsors to re-think putting money into eSports because it's seen as a bunch of kids throwing foul words around is the worst possible thing to do if you actually enjoy the content that's produced.
If you're saying I shouldn't have involved myself, then i believe you are with Blazinghands on this one. I liked your story, but you don't need a story to say you don't think I should have involved myself and at most should have contacted Quantic. I think that's a reasonable position. I gave my reasons, but clearly you disagree. I wish I could post more (as you put a lot of writing into your post), but I don't really think there is more to it.
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I think this dead horse needs to be buried, and fast; it's starting to stink.
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On May 04 2012 23:36 willll wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2012 21:57 ArcticFox wrote:
My response to this is largely dependent upon how many times you've written sponsors in the past. If you send messages to Monster, or SteelSeries, or Razer, or whoever the major sponsor is for your favorite team, just to let them know that you support them and thank them for their support, then sent this message to inform them about Destiny, then that's fair.
If the only contact you've had with sponsors is because of this, then I have no other way to put it than to agree with the above posters who said "fuck you." White knighting over this by directly contacting sponsors is at the same time both the most effective and WORST POSSIBLE way to deal with the incident.
Analogy time -- let's say you go to a hobby shop that just opened up. It's a group of passionate people who worked together to open up the store, because that's what they love doing, but really didn't have the money to do it. So, they borrowed money from another, much larger company involved in the same thing -- let's call them "Tazer" for argument's sake. The store cannot survive without Tazer's support, and Tazer has sent money to a lot of the similar stores in other towns as well, so their brand is well known. So you're in the store, buying some magic the gathering cards or D&D books, thankful to just have *some* place to go to talk about and buy the things you love. But, there's this one employee at the store that's just a complete dick. Let's call him "Fate". Most of the time, you don't even notice Fate. You don't interact with Fate ever, you stick with the guys you know and trust to talk to about your games and ring up your purchases. But one time, while you're in the store, you overhear some customers talking about Fate. One customer says,
"Yea, last time I was in here, Fate called me a faggot. I'm not even gay!"
"Well, were you acting like a faggot?"
"No way man, I was just totally raping his arguments for why 5th series is the best MTG series. Here, I even recorded the conversation on my phone. I'm telling everyone who comes in here about this."
Now, you overhear this conversation, you don't know either of the customers who are talking, and are not personally offended by the word rape, but man faggot rubs you the wrong way. You really didn't care much about the guy to begin with, but you do know he represents one of your favorite stores. Suddenly, Fate shows up and starts talking to the guys, saying that he doesn't give a fuck what they think, that he was pissed off, and that was the first insult that came to mind, but he's not going to apologize for who he is.
Do you:
A) Let the people who were actually insulted and affected by the slur take care of it themselves, assuming that if it's a regular thing, enough people will complain to management that they'll get fired.
B) Go to the boss of the store and say, "Fate's behavior is unacceptable for this store. I like coming here, but this guy just isn't doing you any favors," and try to get him fired that way, even when he never personally attacked you.
C) Go to Tazer, who really doesn't know what happens in the day-to-day operations of the store, and tell him that one of the employees of one of the stores they support is throwing around racial slurs, and you're not going to buy any products related to any of their stores as long as they support such an employee.
What do you think is going to happen in each case? Case A would be optimal imo, but you could make a case for B if the slander and behavior were strong enough and you were personally offended enough by it. Why, in the name of all things holy, would you choose option C and pursue the route that is most likely to get funding pulled from your favorite hobby, which is really the only way that your hobby can stay afloat? It's ridiculously selfish and short-sighted. If you go to the boss and they basically tell you to fuck off, THEN you can escalate it to the next level, because suddenly that store is a poor representation of your hobby as a whole, and you don't want to put money into that store anymore.
Getting sponsors to re-think putting money into eSports because it's seen as a bunch of kids throwing foul words around is the worst possible thing to do if you actually enjoy the content that's produced. If you're saying I shouldn't have involved myself, then i believe you are with Blazinghands on this one. I liked your story, but you don't need a story to say you don't think I should have involved myself and at most should have contacted Quantic. I think that's a reasonable position. I gave my reasons, but clearly you disagree. I wish I could post more (as you put a lot of writing into your post), but I don't really think there is more to it.
Your reason was that you "thought" Quantic wouldn't do anything since they invited Destiny on the team knowing how he is in the first place.
Did you even try contacting Quantic directly? I could get behind that idea at least. Quantic is directly responsible for keeping their employee around. If their employee bothers you personally, it's reasonable. It still seems way out of line to me for someone who isn't even involved, but the logical process is there.
Going directly to the sponsors hurts us all, if you truly enjoy SC2. And the kicker is it doesn't even hurt Destiny that much! Destiny makes enough money to support himself from his streaming, but getting the sponsors to pull their support would be devastating for all the other members of Quantic.
Look, I'm not a fan of Destiny at all. I think he's as obnoxious as hell and full of himself. But going to the sponsors does nothing but hurt the sport as a whole, to give your own ego a boost for feeling like "I did something good!" I stand by my reasoning that it's selfish and short-sighted. You can't just say "it wasn't about esports" and absolve yourself of the potential damage.
What's done is already done, though. The point I'm trying to make is the next time you want to get out your pitchfork over something you weren't directly involved in, at least aim it in the right direction.
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On May 04 2012 19:58 -Exalt- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:49 munchmunch wrote:On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he getsfeatured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race. Dude, the whole point of this blog is that he didn't do it to defend the esports or TL community in any way. It's possible to have principles that aren't "esports principles" or "TL principles". LOL it's not about e-sports? in that case, write destiny a letter and kindly tell him how deeply offended you are. but when you call a major sponsor of an E-Sport (razer).. and make a big deal out of something that we could have moved on from, you hurt everybody. whether you like it or not, this is about "e-sports"..
Didn't hurt me. I'm sorry, but who made you the spokesperson for e-sports? And did you even read his post? OP didn't send the letter for the progression of e-sports. He sent it because as an individual, he was deeply offended. And since Destiny blatantly expressed that he does not give a fuck, the OP sent a letter to someone who might. I don't really agree with his actions, but unlike you, I'm willing to accept that people have different tolerance levels and that my way of thinking is not always the right/only way. On the other hand, you act like you're some designated spokesperson for e-sports, making you exempt from defending your arguments because of natural authority. After all, you seem to have this random presumption that everyone shares the same perspective as you or if they don't, they're morons.
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On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he gets featured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race.
You have 832 posts. I guess that makes you a paragon for esports? Don't start throwing post counts out to determine whether what a person has to say is worthy or not. That's just ignorant thinking.
I for one, if I had a business that sponsored ANY team, would like to know if a member of that team was behaving inappropriately, using language that was offensive, or caused undue stress on the team and or franchise due to that team member's behavior. I want to know this information because my business is connected with that team, and also connected with that player. So when someone thinks of that player they think of the sponsor (whether directly or indirectly).
When Vick was drawn up on charges of dog fighting, weren't there people who called, wrote, protested the Atlanta Falcons because of Vick's actions? Of course there were. And why did these fans do that? Is it because they wanted to hurt football by causing a scene?
If you want to stick you head in the sand, go right ahead. But when you do that you lose the right to complain.
You don't vote?
You don't get to complain about the politicians from your state having done jack shit during their service terms.
Why? Cause you didn't support or reject them. You ignored the world because maybe you feel, "What is one voice in the see of many?"
You don't discipline your children when they misbehave?
You don't get to be outraged when they participate in deviant behavior, engage in criminal activities, etc.
Conversely, there are many that want to see esports continue to grow. There are many who do not (Just see Gheed's blog post) though he is not the only one by far. But if this business is to succeed and grow business have to want to spend money. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for people here on TL and redditt to understand.
I wonder if I had a job, where I interacted with thousands of people each day, and while interacting with these people I used racial slurs (that while not directed at my customers, some of those customers were a part of the demographic that my racial slur applied to). Do you think it is acceptable for my employer to continue to keep me employed if some of those customers brought my language to my bosses attention? How many of those customers, that were offended, are going to be return customers or are they going to seriously think about finding another business to fulfill their needs?
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On May 05 2012 00:20 metbull wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he gets featured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race. You have 832 posts. I guess that makes you a paragon for esports? Don't start throwing post counts out to determine whether what a person has to say is worthy or not. That's just ignorant thinking. I for one, if I had a business that sponsored ANY team, would like to know if a member of that team was behaving inappropriately, using language that was offensive, or caused undue stress on the team and or franchise due to that team member's behavior. I want to know this information because my business is connected with that team, and also connected with that player. So when someone thinks of that player they think of the sponsor (whether directly or indirectly). When Vick was drawn up on charges of dog fighting, weren't there people who called, wrote, protested the Atlanta Falcons because of Vick's actions? Of course there were. And why did these fans do that? Is it because they wanted to hurt football by causing a scene? If you want to stick you head in the sand, go right ahead. But when you do that you lose the right to complain. You don't vote? You don't get to complain about the politicians from your state having done jack shit during their service terms. Why? Cause you didn't support or reject them. You ignored the world because maybe you feel, "What is one voice in the see of many?" You don't discipline your children when they misbehave? You don't get to be outraged when they participate in deviant behavior, engage in criminal activities, etc. Conversely, there are many that want to see esports continue to grow. There are many who do not ( Just see Gheed's blog post) though he is not the only one by far. But if this business is to succeed and grow business have to want to spend money. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for people here on TL and redditt to understand. I wonder if I had a job, where I interacted with thousands of people each day, and while interacting with these people I used racial slurs (that while not directed at my customers, some of those customers were a part of the demographic that my racial slur applied to). Do you think it is acceptable for my employer to continue to keep me employed if some of those customers brought my language to my bosses attention? How many of those customers, that were offended, are going to be return customers or are they going to seriously think about finding another business to fulfill their needs?
Your analogies are off. If those things happened, they're analogous to contacting Quantic, which people are within their rights to do. What happened was a ton of E-Mails to Razer. That's more analogous to contacting Roger Goddell to have the Falcons kicked out of the league over the Vick issue, or seeing a kid misbehaving and calling child protective services on the parent. There's a disconnect, a critical step that was skipped, that a lot of people are taking issue with, because it deters other sponsors from wanting to put money into the system.
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On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he gets featured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race.
...You lose faith in the human race...because a person has principles, and then acts on those principles? Lol, okay.
"Shouldn't even be your business" - people are so ignorant of this soft relativist attitude that pervades modernity and forms the crux of their basic presuppositions. Like it or not, people are not isolated bubbles completely separate from another, things done by one person have affects in a social community relevant to all other participants in said social community.
[Edit]: It's also pretty ironic. There's a fundamental inconsistency when people are claiming that destiny's language won't hurt e-sports, yet letters from fans to sponsors about his language will hurt e-sports. The latter is the implicit concession that language does have consequences. Now, of course someone will try to argue: "but in the first instance, people are just saying that language is bad because people will be put off, whereas the latter is actually directed towards sponsors!" This is absolutely flawed because it assumes that sponsors aren't cognizant of the community or the participants in the first place. Obviously, Kingston Hyper X is going to be aware of IdrA's profile as a player who sometimes gets angry - hence the commercials that demonstrate that knowledge. Whether or not fans let them know, sponsors are going to find out eventually by their exposure to the scene, and it's better to air out the flaws and fix them rather than let them stagnant and rot to the point of eventually eroding the foundation of the entire thing.
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On May 05 2012 00:41 ArcticFox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 00:20 metbull wrote:On May 04 2012 19:42 -Exalt- wrote:
...fuck you
if people are upset that destiny used those words.. fine. don't watch him and know that if he gets featured again he won't be able to say "bad words" anymore. but you call the company who sponsors our awesome game and want to get them involved? to make a big deal out of a small issue hoping to deter a sponsor from a team that depends on the sponsors support? FFS
you have 50 posts. what have you ever done for the community? yet you somehow feel the need to "defend it", or stand up for teamliquid's principles? all you did was escalate something that shouldn't even be your business.
people like this.. make me lose faith in the human race. You have 832 posts. I guess that makes you a paragon for esports? Don't start throwing post counts out to determine whether what a person has to say is worthy or not. That's just ignorant thinking. I for one, if I had a business that sponsored ANY team, would like to know if a member of that team was behaving inappropriately, using language that was offensive, or caused undue stress on the team and or franchise due to that team member's behavior. I want to know this information because my business is connected with that team, and also connected with that player. So when someone thinks of that player they think of the sponsor (whether directly or indirectly). When Vick was drawn up on charges of dog fighting, weren't there people who called, wrote, protested the Atlanta Falcons because of Vick's actions? Of course there were. And why did these fans do that? Is it because they wanted to hurt football by causing a scene? If you want to stick you head in the sand, go right ahead. But when you do that you lose the right to complain. You don't vote? You don't get to complain about the politicians from your state having done jack shit during their service terms. Why? Cause you didn't support or reject them. You ignored the world because maybe you feel, "What is one voice in the see of many?" You don't discipline your children when they misbehave? You don't get to be outraged when they participate in deviant behavior, engage in criminal activities, etc. Conversely, there are many that want to see esports continue to grow. There are many who do not ( Just see Gheed's blog post) though he is not the only one by far. But if this business is to succeed and grow business have to want to spend money. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept for people here on TL and redditt to understand. I wonder if I had a job, where I interacted with thousands of people each day, and while interacting with these people I used racial slurs (that while not directed at my customers, some of those customers were a part of the demographic that my racial slur applied to). Do you think it is acceptable for my employer to continue to keep me employed if some of those customers brought my language to my bosses attention? How many of those customers, that were offended, are going to be return customers or are they going to seriously think about finding another business to fulfill their needs? Your analogies are off. If those things happened, they're analogous to contacting Quantic, which people are within their rights to do. What happened was a ton of E-Mails to Razer. That's more analogous to contacting Roger Goddell to have the Falcons kicked out of the league over the Vick issue, or seeing a kid misbehaving and calling child protective services on the parent. There's a disconnect, a critical step that was skipped, that a lot of people are taking issue with, because it deters other sponsors from wanting to put money into the system.
I understand what you're saying, and that makes some sense; but Roger Goddell doesn't sponsor the Atlanta Falcons. He facilitates the entire National Football League. The Falcon's are indirectly sponsored by the fans and customers of that franchise (as well as direct sponsorships through drink companies, apparel producers, etc). But the mass amount of money comes from the "on the ground" fan. I don't know the content of the emails to Razer; but I don't know that people were calling Razer to stop sponsorship of Quanitc rather perhaps they were expressing concern about Quantic having an active employee that was using racial slurs. Maybe they were calling for Razer to drop Quantic, and if that is the case then I don't think it's right to punish an entire team for the actions of one player.
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I missed the whole destiny drama. Not that I care.
Anyway, ty for your service. He deserved it.
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How nice of you OP, to get offended for all the asians that probably don't give a fuck about what Destiny said to another person on the internet.
But I have to say, it's kinda disturbing that you actually feel good about ruining someones job. Seriously.
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angrywaltermeme.jpg
Am I the only Korean around here that wasn't offended by Destiny saying gook?
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On May 05 2012 02:07 Wortie wrote:
How nice of you OP, to get offended for all the asians that probably don't give a fuck about what Destiny said to another person on the internet.
But I have to say, it's kinda disturbing that you actually feel good about ruining someones job. Seriously.
i was offended. actually, i didn't even learn about it since i don't play sc2 until i saw this post.
On May 05 2012 02:26 matiK23 wrote:
angrywaltermeme.jpg
Am I the only Korean around here that wasn't offended by Destiny saying gook?
nowadays the term applies to east asians in general, at least in america.
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Do you guys realize the ramifications of e-mailing sponsors? It affects a lot more than just Destiny, who obviously didn't even need his partnership with Quantic, and will probably still get just about the same number of viewers as he always does when he starts streaming again. It's about how it makes the scene LOOK. We look like an angry mob lynching whomever is thrown into the spotlight next.
What happened to when strategy threads were the ones blowing up? When people ACTUALLY CARED about the game? Instead of debating over improvements to the UI, game play, etc., the most popular threads are drama filled nonsense filled with internet white knights and fan boys going toe to toe with whatever insults they can muster up within 15 seconds, before they refresh their page and realize that the thread is blowing up so fast, the person they were arguing with is hardly going to find their rebuttal anyway.
This site is so lame to visit lately...
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People are throwing around the angry mob reference without even understanding what the term truly references. The flaws in the angry mob is the presence of "group-think" that defies ordinary reason. The problem: you're claiming that people are becoming an "angry mob" on the internet. In the internet, you do not have the same immersion of contact and peer pressure that forms mobs in reality. In fact, quite the opposite - the internet provides quite the number of alternative viewpoints (such as the wide disagreement on this issue), and there's little to no coercive force in a simple online bunch of text posturing one perspective (as opposed to a group of people shouting with pitchforks in front of your house).
Perhaps you're trying to say that people only get in arms because it is publicized, and fail to acknowledge movements that aren't not engaged directly. That is a criticism directed towards (wat you assert ought to be) the presence of cognitive dissonance, but in reality, smaller cognitive dissonances (that responses are not given to other offensive players/examples) are outweighed by the larger cognitive dissonance (that we believe in a fundamental attitude of respect towards groups such as various ethnicities, an attitude displayed in the OP).
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On May 05 2012 03:07 Flonomenalz wrote:
Do you guys realize the ramifications of e-mailing sponsors? It affects a lot more than just Destiny, who obviously didn't even need his partnership with Quantic, and will probably still get just about the same number of viewers as he always does when he starts streaming again. It's about how it makes the scene LOOK. We look like an angry mob lynching whomever is thrown into the spotlight next.
What happened to when strategy threads were the ones blowing up? When people ACTUALLY CARED about the game? Instead of debating over improvements to the UI, game play, etc., the most popular threads are drama filled nonsense filled with internet white knights and fan boys going toe to toe with whatever insults they can muster up within 15 seconds, before they refresh their page and realize that the thread is blowing up so fast, the person they were arguing with is hardly going to find their rebuttal anyway.
This site is so lame to visit lately...
omg, this post would be a near perfect script for the angry Hitler on the state of the SC2 community.
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On May 05 2012 03:56 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
People are throwing around the angry mob reference without even understanding what the term truly references. The flaws in the angry mob is the presence of "group-think" that defies ordinary reason. The problem: you're claiming that people are becoming an "angry mob" on the internet. In the internet, you do not have the same immersion of contact and peer pressure that forms mobs in reality. In fact, quite the opposite - the internet provides quite the number of alternative viewpoints (such as the wide disagreement on this issue), and there's little to no coercive force in a simple online bunch of text posturing one perspective (as opposed to a group of people shouting with pitchforks in front of your house).
Perhaps you're trying to say that people only get in arms because it is publicized, and fail to acknowledge movements that aren't not engaged directly. That is a criticism directed towards (wat you assert ought to be) the presence of cognitive dissonance, but in reality, smaller cognitive dissonances (that responses are not given to other offensive players/examples) are outweighed by the larger cognitive dissonance (that we believe in a fundamental attitude of respect towards groups such as various ethnicities, an attitude displayed in the OP).
In the midst of you attempting to argue semantics over the internet, you fail to realize that there are similar pressures enacted upon internet communities. Reddit is a community. TL is a community. Within communities arise contacts, and through contacts, the same pressures that exist in reality.
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Why is this even such a large topic? If you're a community figure you need to watch what you say. After the Orb incident, people should have expected something like this, regardless if he said it out of anger or not. If a company is going to invest money into something, they don't want to be associated with racist remarks or any bad publicity, regardless if it was said in jest.
You don't see profession athletes being endorsed by companies like Beckham(Adidas), Woods(Nike), or Iverson(Reebok) going around swearing in their private time. I'm sure they do, but not publically.
I guess affairs dont count 
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EPT
