This blog is of course motivated by the recent Destiny and Orb drama, but aims towards a more general question that has been running through my head. Let me state a few things before you reply :
I believe that xenophobia and consequently racism are very common at diverse degrees (if you disagree with me, see WWII, the war in Serbia, the war in Armenia, MLK, the stoning of Italian and Spanish immigrants in France at the beginning of the 20th century, and every crisis where people show their true faces).
I don't care that much about Destiny and Orb so please don't bring them up in this thread.
I don't see many people using racial insults around me, and almost never in an offensive way.
As I started playing SC2, one thing that I found very odd is the fact that people would call me "nigger" when they BMed. I wondered, is this an American thing, a remain of what was once a racial war? Some others called me a faggot, and this I understood better. To be completely honest, I'm slightly homophobic myself - and I admit it without shame, because there's nothing I can do about it - and while I've always been respectful to the gay community and fully support gay marriage and adoption, I understand the "feminine" stereotype. To call someone a "faggot" is to say that they are "lame" because they don't "have balls". It's the same in France, people use the word "pédé" (pronounced "paeday") to mock on someone's lack of courage and bravery. This is of course unfounded but we can at least see where it originates from.
French people also have their own racial obsessions : mainly Arabs, and Blacks to a lesser extent. But there is no common insult that sprouts from this hate. If I play someone online and he's pissed, he won't call me an "Arab" because, well, he has no reson to assume I'm one. In this case, the existing insult would be "dirty Arab" ("'sale arabe") and is already a strong one. Not only that, but it's directed only towards people from the Makhreb. You simply don't call a white person a "dirty Arab". This means that the term "Arab" holds no pejorative meaning in itself, as the insult is only directed towards the presence of these people on "white territory". To make it offensive, you even have to add the word "dirty" before.
This is why I don't understand how people can call me "nigger" on the ladder. What is the stereotypical idea behind it? What traits are black people supposed to have that are embodied in the N word?
From what I seem to understand, the idea of the word "nigger" is inferiority. Then how is it OK to use it everyday? Doesn't it express the sincere belief that black people are in fact inferior? N-word users, or others, enlighten me.
only ignorant people use "nigger" to bm other people on the ladder. trying to understand their rationality behind using the word is an exercise in futility.
Well, what interests me more is the meaning behind it. Some people have defended the use of the word "nigger" because they claim they're angry and they don't "mean" it, but mean what? How is that word supposed to be offensive? You don't run around calling people "lamps", because being called a lamp is not particularly offensive. So what's the idea begind the N word? And if someone gives it such a meaning, doesn't it actually mean that they kind of think it's true?
I mean, I don't call people "black" as an insult, because that word is neutral for me. If it wasn't then it would mean I have a strong opinion about blacks in general, no?
Even African American people call there own race the "N" word, it shouldn't even be considered a "Bad word" if anything it is nothing but a type of slang.
I'm from australia and we dont have many black people here. I use the word nigger because its just another word in my offensive word dictionary. I throw in Arab, Jew, dumb Asian, fag, and anything else that comes to mind. They are all equal in my books.
I would never call a black person a nigger, unless he was my friend, and the same goes to the rest of them. My grandpa is Chinese, and I went to a school that was 70% Jewish kids. I couldn't be any less racist, but the words are good fun to use.
"Nigger" (I feel dirty just saying the word) is used, like so so many insults (at least in the American language) outside of context. The person calling you the N word on the internet does not actually think (I assume) that you are black. No more than someone calling you retarded thinks you suffer from a mental deficiency.
Insults like this one have become generic. There is no longer a specific meaning behind them. They are a general cathartic displayal of hate, anger, and frustration, without any explicit meaning behind them.
This has been true since childhood (ok, at least my childhood, I don't know exactly when this phenomenon began). I remember a conversation with my Dad when I was little (maybe 8?). I had a tendency to fixate on a certain insult and use it in all situations of frustration regardless of its direct applicability. At the time I had fixated on "idiot," and I directed it at my dad. He's not an idiot. He asked me why I called him that. I explained my above tendency to fixate on one insult at a time, and progress gradually to another. He asked me what was next. I said "jerk." He told me not to say that, and the conversation was over.
But it made me think. I was picking these insults so arbitrarily. They had lost any meaning beyond expressing the fact that I was upset about something. Anyways, just a little tangent that your blog reminded me of.
What I say is: let's go back to insulting each other meaningfully!!!
On May 02 2012 11:56 Sc2Corpse wrote: Even African American people call there own race the "N" word, it shouldn't even be considered a "Bad word" if anything it is nothing but a type of slang.
But then why is an angry kid calling me a "nigger"? Isn't he trying to insult me?
Really, if it's just a random word then I don't see why people use it when they rage, with an aggressive attitude.
On May 02 2012 11:44 Kukaracha wrote: Well, what interests me more is the meaning behind it. Some people have defended the use of the word "nigger" because they claim they're angry and they don't "mean" it, but mean what? How is that word supposed to be offensive? You don't run around calling people "lamps", because being called a lamp is not particularly offensive. So what's the idea begind the N word? And if someone gives it such a meaning, doesn't it actually mean that they kind of think it's true?
I mean, I don't call people "black" as an insult, because that word is neutral for me. If it wasn't then it would mean I have a strong opinion about blacks in general, no?
it is a derogatory term for black people; the word itself means black. when people use it and say they dont intend to use it derogatorily, they are just stupid because its by definition derogatory.
I'd also like someone to explain how "gook" is more socially acceptable or less generally offensive than the N word. People like to talk about racism a lot, but you know what? This is what I call racism. We can all agree that racial slurs shouldn't be used like this or at all but why on earth is the N word worse? Or "gook" okay? In games they're just stupid terms used by careless people who can't think of anything more creative to say, which is pretty pathetic. But I'm a bit miffed that people are having a stronger reaction to Orb than Destiny when they've both done comparably reaction-inducing behavior. It all comes down to goddamn popularity. If Orb had a fan base Destiny's size then he might still be casting for EG. Regardless, don't you just wish that everyone who's ever had thoughts about racism or racist remarks would stay on the same page and not be against Orb but indifferent to Destiny because everyone loves the super-funny comedy man Destiny? I've got nothing against him, he's a great guy but the real problem lies in the community. And popularity is quite the influence.
Nigger these days is used as a more powerful version of faggot, I think. Probably because everyone's panties get up in a bunch everytime someone says it. Also, over time, insults and their meaning get "diluted" due to continued exposure, so new insults and creative insults are necessary in order to trash talk.
On May 02 2012 11:56 Sc2Corpse wrote: Even African American people call there own race the "N" word, it shouldn't even be considered a "Bad word" if anything it is nothing but a type of slang.
But then why is an angry kid calling me a "nigger"? Isn't he trying to insult me?
Really, if it's just a random word then I don't see why people use it when they rage, with an aggressive attitude.
It has to do with the power of the word in the english language, there is no other word as strong. The only one that comes close is 'cunt.' You might have to be american to understand this, because its kinda an abstract thing that you cant really put into words.
On May 02 2012 11:58 run.at.me wrote: I'm from australia and we dont have many black people here. I use the word nigger because its just another word in my offensive word dictionary. I throw in Arab, Jew, dumb Asian, fag, and anything else that comes to mind. They are all equal in my books.
I would never call a black person a nigger, unless he was my friend, and the same goes to the rest of them. My grandpa is Chinese, and I went to a school that was 70% Jewish kids. I couldn't be any less racist, but the words are good fun to use.
Do you ever use any derogatory terms for white people from your offensive dictionary? I always thought it's weird how people often use derogatory terms for other races to insult other white people even if they are white themselves. Why not instead use derogatory terms for white people. Oh wait I forgot white people have no flaws so there is no way someone could feel insulted by being called something associated with being white, also as we have learned modern day white people are never racist so long they as don't admit to being one.
Open racism, makes it easier to tell who is actually racist. instead today a lot of people feel entitled to say nigger faggot gook but then as long as you say " its just words im not actually racist" people are actually expected to believe you or else because of the extremists on the opposite end of the spectrum you are considered to be trying to restrict their free speech and are labeling anyone who uses those words as some mega racist. -_-
On May 02 2012 12:11 Areon wrote: I'd also like someone to explain how "gook" is more socially acceptable or less generally offensive than the N word. People like to talk about racism a lot, but you know what? This is what I call racism. We can all agree that racial slurs shouldn't be used like this or at all but why on earth is the N word worse? Or "gook" okay? In games they're just stupid terms used by careless people who can't think of anything more creative to say, which is pretty pathetic. But I'm a bit miffed that people are having a stronger reaction to Orb than Destiny when they've both done comparably reaction-inducing behavior. It all comes down to goddamn popularity. If Orb had a fan base Destiny's size then he might still be casting for EG. Regardless, don't you just wish that everyone who's ever had thoughts about racism or racist remarks would stay on the same page and not be against Orb but indifferent to Destiny because everyone loves the super-funny comedy man Destiny? I've got nothing against him, he's a great guy but the real problem lies in the community. And popularity is quite the influence.
Please, this isn't about Destiny and Orb. Wether it's "nigger" or "gook", I simply want to know how people justify their use of these words.
And to those who believe they are just insults like any other, then how come you don't call people white? And doesn't the term nigger, for example, perpetrate through common vocabulary a certain idea of black people, instead of "diluting" it?
French people used to call Germans "boches" as an insult. When the two countries came to a peaceful cohabitation, that word disappeared. It didn't proliferate until it became normal, because when can it ever be normal to have an insult directed towards the essence of who you are?
On May 02 2012 12:14 Nibbler89 wrote: people are never racist so long they as don't admit to being one.
Also, this. Many people get out of this by saying "hey, we're not racist!" But to be honest, it just seems too easy, and I don't see many people willing to admit this sort of things in public.
Also, this. Many people get out of this by saying "hey, we're not racist!" But to be honest, it just seems too easy, and I don't see many people willing to admit this sort of things in public
The reason it's ridiculous is because everyone is pretty much a racist, everyone generalizes to some degree it just depends on how extreme your actions because of it are that determine whether you're an asshole or not. It doesn't have be as extreme as violence or even using racial slurs, it can be as simple as subconsciously feeling more comfortable approaching a person of your own race to make friends as opposed to another. It doesn't have to mean you are a card carrying nazi, just that it's there as part of who we are. If you are aware of it, you can catch yourself doing it and change it.
The most dangerous racists are the ones that are so ignorant they think they are 100% unbiased towards their own race/nationality. Because they are the ones that can't recognize when they are being biased because they think their bias doesn't exist. It's like a bronze player who thinks he's GM, in his mind he isn't making any mistakes.
If they are using derogatory language and say "i am 100% not racist" you pretty much know they are either lying or an idiot.
On May 02 2012 11:56 Sc2Corpse wrote: Even African American people call there own race the "N" word, it shouldn't even be considered a "Bad word" if anything it is nothing but a type of slang.
Are you kidding me? Even though some black people call each other the "N" word, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt them in some way. Based upon the one black person whom I have talked to about this, someone saying the word who isn't black in a negative way is very harmful, and they still felt a bit of a shock when their brother started using the word regularly in his rap music, but he stopped because apparently it didn't feel right to him. The word still has an overwhelmingly large amount of power, which I personally don't understand because I am not black. It is not nothing but a type of slang.
I'm sure you know what slavery is. In America during that time, the slaves were usually referred to as "N-----" by the white community. So when you call someone that word, you literally are saying that you believe the country should go back to the slave times. You also say that the other person should be a slave, and is inferior in every way possible, that their whole race is inferior, and their sole existence is to serve the whites.
In the middle of the 20th century, the black people in america began to gain some of the rights that the whites had, and achieve their dream of equality. As you can imagine, there were many people who did not like this, and reverted back to the N-word to show how they felt; that the blacks were made to be slaves, and they did not deserve those rights. That was about 60 years ago.
Now, only the people who lived during that time, and a small amount of others, know what that word really means. The younger generations don't realize what exactly comes along with the N-word, just that the word is terrible and should never be used. Because of this, it is used as a cuss word is today. The people you hear say that think it is on the same level as "ass-hole", "faggot", or any other word like that, but it isn't. It is the most powerful word that I personally know. There is no other that matches the terrible, true meaning of that word.
To compare: When the word "gook" came around, I'm pretty sure it was during the Korean war. The American soldiers in Korea during that time (1970's maybe?) mistakenly heard the natives referring to themselves as the "Han-guk", and so began to call the people this. The term was used to generalize the population, and became offensive. "g---" = four years or so during the war, began as a misunderstanding "n-----" = 200 years of the struggle of black people Makes sense yet? I think there are two reasons that you see many black people calling each other the n word. The first is that the majority of us also don't understand how powerful the word is, but say it to each other because their parents and mentors did. All they know is to fight anyone that isn't black that says it.
The older generations used it against each other to keep themselves in line. There is a movie with morgan freeman in it that is set in the civil war. He was the highest ranking officer, the only officer, in a regiment of blacks. One character of his seemingly forgets his place, and tries to start a revolt against the white leaders. As much as morgan freeman's character wants to revolt, he knows that doing so will have terrible consequences. He then calls the soldier the n word so that he will remember where he is, what had happened, and what will happen. The soldier quickly steps back in line. This is the best example I can give on the whole "black people calling other black people the n word" issue. Like I said though, in today's times it's just because they don't know any better.
I hope that helps the o.p. and anyone else who wants to know, and sorry if the grammar is bad or if any of the facts are incorrect.
On May 02 2012 11:58 run.at.me wrote: I'm from australia and we dont have many black people here. I use the word nigger because its just another word in my offensive word dictionary. I throw in Arab, Jew, dumb Asian, fag, and anything else that comes to mind. They are all equal in my books.
I would never call a black person a nigger, unless he was my friend, and the same goes to the rest of them. My grandpa is Chinese, and I went to a school that was 70% Jewish kids. I couldn't be any less racist, but the words are good fun to use.
Do you ever use any derogatory terms for white people from your offensive dictionary? I always thought it's weird how people often use derogatory terms for other races to insult other white people even if they are white themselves. Why not instead use derogatory terms for white people. Oh wait I forgot white people have no flaws so there is no way someone could feel insulted by being called something associated with being white, also as we have learned modern day white people are never racist so long they as don't admit to being one.
I miss open racism, makes it easier to tell who is actually racist, instead of everyone feeling entitled to say nigger faggot gook but then as long as you say " its just words im not actually racist" and people are actually expected to believe you or else because of the extremists on the opposite end of the spectrum you are considered to be trying to restrict their free speech and are labeling anyone who uses those words as some mega racist. -_-
Well, to be clear I don't use any of those words to genuinely insult anyone. Because never have I found someone's race a reason to insult them..
I have plenty of white slang, but i only use them when they are somewhat true, which is kind of unusual. Usually it's just jokes with friends tho, if they are acting like a 'bogan' or redneck Americans use.
On May 02 2012 13:11 hoot00 wrote: Alright, I will answer your question op.
I'm sure you know what slavery is. In America during that time, the slaves were usually referred to as "N-----" by the white community. So when you call someone that word, you literally are saying that you believe the country should go back to the slave times. You also say that the other person should be a slave, and is inferior in every way possible, that their whole race is inferior, and their sole existence is to serve the whites.
In the middle of the 20th century, the black people in america began to gain some of the rights that the whites had, and achieve their dream of equality. As you can imagine, there were many people who did not like this, and reverted back to the N-word to show how they felt; that the blacks were made to be slaves, and they did not deserve those rights. That was about 60 years ago.
Now, only the people who lived during that time, and a small amount of others, know what that word really means. The younger generations don't realize what exactly comes along with the N-word, just that the word is terrible and should never be used. Because of this, it is used as a cuss word is today. The people you hear say that think it is on the same level as "ass-hole", "faggot", or any other word like that, but it isn't. It is the most powerful word that I personally know. There is no other that matches the terrible, true meaning of that word.
To compare: When the word "gook" came around, I'm pretty sure it was during the Korean war. The American soldiers in Korea during that time (1970's maybe?) mistakenly heard the natives referring to themselves as the "Han-guk", and so began to call the people this. The term was used to generalize the population, and became offensive. "g---" = four years or so during the war, began as a misunderstanding "n-----" = 200 years of the struggle of black people Makes sense yet? I think there are two reasons that you see many black people calling each other the n word. The first is that the majority of us also don't understand how powerful the word is, but say it to each other because their parents and mentors did. All they know is to fight anyone that isn't black that says it.
This is basically correct. I live in the dirty south, and my grandmother (and parents sometimes) still uses the N-word, and really means it. Like really means it. She uses it to specifically single out black people and her belief of their inferiority. I don't blame her because of how she grew up. Anyway, the N-word is truly disgusting, and if know the history of it, or lived in the dirty south where people still use it and mean it, it will just occur to you that it is miles worse than most other racial slurs.
STOP. THIS. FUCKING. DISCUSSION. Holy shit, TL, really? We don't need 500,000 threads since 2010 about racism and thoughts on it. There's been plenty of things happening in the community (ie: orb incident, stuff with destiny), but who gives a fuck? We don't need all these fucking threads.
On May 02 2012 11:34 dAPhREAk wrote: only ignorant people use "nigger" to bm other people on the ladder. trying to understand their rationality behind using the word is an exercise in futility.
i use nigger all the time to bm people and i dont think im ignorant im just an asshole
It is because it is the most offensive possible word in polite company in English. We Americans are extremely embarrassed about our cultural history re black people.
No other word really comes close. "Faggot" has analogous social status but is less offensive. "Motherfucker" is somewhat strong but very generic. "Asshole," "Douchebag," et al are just on a lower level, and anything else is being creative and therefore not offensive.
edit: "kike" is probably almost as strong, but less common and I think even the ignorant types who say things like "nigger" don't want to think of themselves as nazis? idk. "Cunt" is extremely offensive but only used against women (stronger version of "bitch" which means very different things for women vs. men).
OP, you are a racist and a homophobe. By your personal admission. You are actually in full realization of this. You are self-faware.
So rather than go the final step and try not to be a racist and a homophobe, you get stuck in the details. You try to rationalize your own racism and homophobia as seen in your second paragraph : "racism is human nature as seen here here and here! and I think gays are feminine and we french have always called people dirty arabs so its ok to use as an insult!".
You try to then assume that everyone else is interested in discussing your -- frankly, stupid -- rationalizations, where in fact some common sense would tell you that there is absolutely never any reason or circumstance where homophobia or racism is alright at all, much less logical or justified.
This is mystifiying. Just go the final step and try to change yourself as a person rather than desperately trying not to get away from the status quo.
On May 02 2012 13:38 coZy wrote: STOP. THIS. FUCKING. DISCUSSION. Holy shit, TL, really? We don't need 500,000 threads since 2010 about racism and thoughts on it. There's been plenty of things happening in the community (ie: orb incident, stuff with destiny), but who gives a fuck? We don't need all these fucking threads.
That's why he blogged it. Why are your panties in a wad?
Words only have the power and meaning that you give it.
Shit Fuck Cunt. Varying degrees of 'offensiveness' to different people. Some people absolutely hate those three words, some others only hate two and some just hate one. Its funny to think that i like to use the word 'gook' as a pejorative for asian but the majority of my asian buddies don't even find it offensive because they haven't been exposed to it in that context. Even i don't find it that offensive, unless said in an extremely negative manner (then again that applies to any insult).
Also, a pejorative term for Arab would be 'sand nigger'. At least that's what i learnt in high school.
On May 02 2012 12:44 iTzSnypah wrote: Nigger has degraded into just another worthless demeaning word ever since rap embraced it.
This. Get over it.
I met some Guy from Bristol (UK if you don't know) recently and he was constantly asking for "Fags" (Cigarettes", had me laughing a little everytime :D.
On May 02 2012 12:26 Kukaracha wrote: And to those who believe they are just insults like any other, then how come you don't call people white? And doesn't the term nigger, for example, perpetrate through common vocabulary a certain idea of black people, instead of "diluting" it?
I think you totally misunderstood the meaning of the word.
Nigger =/= "noir" in french, it's translation is "nègre". This word was used to denote slaves and imply that they are inferior to white people.
So when calling someone a nigger, the insult comes from the feeling of superiority the user wants to express by calling you inferior, not the skin color or geographic provenance. (Thats why they don't need to know you are black to call you nigger, the term has just evolved from a sole denomination of black people some centuries ago to an insult usable no matter the skin color.)
On May 02 2012 13:38 coZy wrote: STOP. THIS. FUCKING. DISCUSSION. Holy shit, TL, really? We don't need 500,000 threads since 2010 about racism and thoughts on it. There's been plenty of things happening in the community (ie: orb incident, stuff with destiny), but who gives a fuck? We don't need all these fucking threads.
Hey, this is my blog sir. If I want to talk about carrots, I will talk about carros, or chairs, or German ontology.
On May 02 2012 14:38 Jinsho wrote: OP, you are a racist and a homophobe. By your personal admission. You are actually in full realization of this. You are self-faware.
So rather than go the final step and try not to be a racist and a homophobe, you get stuck in the details. You try to rationalize your own racism and homophobia as seen in your second paragraph : "racism is human nature as seen here here and here! and I think gays are feminine and we french have always called people dirty arabs so its ok to use as an insult!".
You try to then assume that everyone else is interested in discussing your -- frankly, stupid -- rationalizations, where in fact some common sense would tell you that there is absolutely never any reason or circumstance where homophobia or racism is alright at all, much less logical or justified.
This is mystifiying. Just go the final step and try to change yourself as a person rather than desperately trying not to get away from the status quo.
Read the OP again. I don't think gays are feminine, or that Arabs are dirty. And quite frankly, I think you're being a tremendous hypocrite because, yes, racism is very common and is the one of the most common reactions when faced with the unkown. Ethnology has underlined this for decades. Contempt towards strangers - and hate when they're even physically different - can be found in the vocabulary of many tribes who use terms such as "ghost", "subhuman" or "half-human" to mean "stranger".
The worse kind of people believe themselves to be all-loving and make no effort towards being civil to others, simply because they think it's natural. Eichmann, for example, was a very simple and kind man... At least read the Wikipedia entry on Hannah Arendt.
On May 02 2012 12:26 Kukaracha wrote: And to those who believe they are just insults like any other, then how come you don't call people white? And doesn't the term nigger, for example, perpetrate through common vocabulary a certain idea of black people, instead of "diluting" it?
I think you totally misunderstood the meaning of the word.
Nigger =/= "noir" in french, it's translation is "nègre". This word was used to denote slaves and imply that they are inferior to white people.
So when calling someone a nigger, the insult comes from the feeling of superiority the user wants to express by calling you inferior, not the skin color or geographic provenance. (Thats why they don't need to know you are black to call you nigger, the term has just evolved from a sole denomination of black people some centuries ago to an insult usable no matter the skin color.)
But again, a "nègre" is a black person. Arab or white slaves weren't called "nègres". How is it OK to associate blacks with inferiority? And if words are words, would you stay calm if I called your mother a "whore" in front of you? I'm also curious at what would happen if I called people on the ladder "white boys", I might try that sometime.
On May 02 2012 22:09 Kukaracha wrote: But again, a "nègre" is a black person. Arab or white slaves weren't called "nègres". How is it OK to associate blacks with inferiority? And if words are words, would you stay calm if I called your mother a "whore" in front of you? I'm also curious at what would happen if I called people on the ladder "white boys", I might try that sometime.
I'm german. People call me Nazi on the internet 24/7. Do I care? No. Should I care? No. Do blacks care if random strangers call them niggers? No. Should they care? No. Yes I would stay calm if you called my mother a whore. Why? Because it only shows your lack of respect, not that my mother is a whore. That's just how it is. Insulting words don't mean anything to the one being insulted, but perfectly reflect on the one using them.
On May 02 2012 22:09 Kukaracha wrote: But again, a "nègre" is a black person. Arab or white slaves weren't called "nègres". How is it OK to associate blacks with inferiority? And if words are words, would you stay calm if I called your mother a "whore" in front of you? I'm also curious at what would happen if I called people on the ladder "white boys", I might try that sometime.
I'm german. People call me Nazi on the internet 24/7. Do I care? No. Should I care? No. Do blacks care if random strangers call them niggers? No. Should they care? No. Yes I would stay calm if you called my mother a whore. Why? Because it only shows your lack of respect, not that my mother is a whore. That's just how it is. Insulting words don't mean anything to the one being insulted, but perfectly reflect on the one using them.
You don't understand. What I find interesting is that someone would call a random and probably white person a nigger. If I ever called your mother a whore, it's because in the end I do despise "whores", and society agrees with me to some extent. Not because she actually is a prostitude, since I don't know what her job is.
Same of "nazi". When you call a random person a "nazi", it's because nazis are commonly despised as foul beings. In this case, nazis are actually looked down upon, so how is it any different from the term "nigger"?
I wish people would drop the Orb and nigger argument. (Sorry OP, I know you mentioned to keep this out of discussion, I just wish people would let it go, so I'll clear it up.)
The reason Orb was fired for using the word nigger, and people such as Destiny and IdrA are allowed to BM was not because of the word itself. Orb was fired because he LIED to EG. If Orb had confessed to using the word, and stated that he had changed and would not use it anymore, things would have certainly been different. When Orb told EG that he wasn't the one on his account saying those things, EG released an official statement saying that they believe him, and will support him. To their sponsors, this says, "We support our caster and truly believe that he wasn't the one using these racial slurs."
When it came out that it actually WAS Orb who had been saying these things, he had to be let go. He had ruined the face of the company in front of their sponsors. This was his undoing. Another common example of "admit your mistake and apologize, and things will be so much better". But Orb wanted to get off totally clean, and not admit to any of his mistakes. It was his lying to EG that got him fired, not the use of the word.
On May 02 2012 22:09 Kukaracha wrote: But again, a "nègre" is a black person. Arab or white slaves weren't called "nègres". How is it OK to associate blacks with inferiority? And if words are words, would you stay calm if I called your mother a "whore" in front of you? I'm also curious at what would happen if I called people on the ladder "white boys", I might try that sometime.
I'm german. People call me Nazi on the internet 24/7. Do I care? No. Should I care? No. Do blacks care if random strangers call them niggers? No. Should they care? No. Yes I would stay calm if you called my mother a whore. Why? Because it only shows your lack of respect, not that my mother is a whore. That's just how it is. Insulting words don't mean anything to the one being insulted, but perfectly reflect on the one using them.
so.. just because you don't care you expect other people to not care as well? its not about whether something true or not, its about respect. when somebody calls you something derogatory, that means that that person disrespects you. To give you an extreme example, if you go to a restaurant and one of the servers refuses to serve you, that also tells more about that person than you, but you just got dis'ed nonetheless. It should feel like crap. whether you tolerate it or not is your choice, but you can't tell me disrespecting someone by words is not a matter of concern and by action is.
On May 02 2012 11:44 Kukaracha wrote: Well, what interests me more is the meaning behind it. Some people have defended the use of the word "nigger" because they claim they're angry and they don't "mean" it, but mean what? How is that word supposed to be offensive? You don't run around calling people "lamps", because being called a lamp is not particularly offensive. So what's the idea begind the N word? And if someone gives it such a meaning, doesn't it actually mean that they kind of think it's true?
I mean, I don't call people "black" as an insult, because that word is neutral for me. If it wasn't then it would mean I have a strong opinion about blacks in general, no?
I like your idea. People who piss me off, from henceforth, are lamps. Filthy lamps.
How is the person you're talking to supposed to know what you meant through the words you've chosen? The only way is to assume that they're being used with a commonly accepted definition. In the case of "nigger" history teaches us that it's the same as calling somone an "inferior black person". There is no way to know that you actually mean otherwise or that you're using the term out if his usual context.
"A superior man, in regard to what he does not know, shows a cautious reserve. If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success. When affairs cannot be carried on to success, proprieties and music do not flourish. When proprieties and music do not flourish, punishments will not be properly awarded. When punishments are not properly awarded, the people do not know how to move hand or foot. Therefore a superior man considers it necessary that the names he uses may be spoken appropriately, and also that what he speaks may be carried out appropriately. What the superior man requires is just that in his words there may be nothing incorrect." - Analects 8.3
"Nets are for catching fish; after one gets the fish, one forgets the net. Traps are for catching rabbits; after one gets the rabbit, one forgets the trap. Words are for getting meaning; after one gets the meaning, one forgets the words. Where can I find people who have forgotten words, and have a word with them?" - Zhungzi
This discussion is worthless purely because the definition of racism is already flawed at it's core. Aside of that it's really bothering me that some people can be so stuck up about an expression and pull it out of context just to shit on the person who said it. Look at Orb, he messed up and people started to shit on him for it. Really immature in my view.
Regarding racism, I like to quote the definitions on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism)
Racism is generally understood as either belief that different racial groups are characterized by intrinsic characteristics or abilities and that some such groups are therefore naturally superior to others [1][2] or as practices that discriminate against members of particular racial groups,[1] for example by perpetuating unequal access to resources between groups.[3]
This would imply that we're basing our judgement off the "race" of an individual. Yet there is the following line a little while further:
The definition of racism is controversial both because there is little scholarly agreement about what the word "race" means, and because there is also little agreement about what does and doesn't constitute discrimination.
So we're looking at a term (Racism) where we're not even clear about the definition of "race" and how this works. This leads me to say one simple thing. You can only stop racism when you stop marking all comments that are a little edgy as racist. The more you stamp the "racism" sign on things, the stronger it keeps coming back.
On May 03 2012 08:58 Aelonius wrote: This discussion is worthless purely because the definition of racism is already flawed at it's core. Aside of that it's really bothering me that some people can be so stuck up about an expression and pull it out of context just to shit on the person who said it. Look at Orb, he messed up and people started to shit on him for it. Really immature in my view.
Regarding racism, I like to quote the definitions on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism)
Racism is generally understood as either belief that different racial groups are characterized by intrinsic characteristics or abilities and that some such groups are therefore naturally superior to others [1][2] or as practices that discriminate against members of particular racial groups,[1] for example by perpetuating unequal access to resources between groups.[3]
This would imply that we're basing our judgement off the "race" of an individual. Yet there is the following line a little while further:
The definition of racism is controversial both because there is little scholarly agreement about what the word "race" means, and because there is also little agreement about what does and doesn't constitute discrimination.
So we're looking at a term (Racism) where we're not even clear about the definition of "race" and how this works. This leads me to say one simple thing. You can only stop racism when you stop marking all comments that are a little edgy as racist. The more you stamp the "racism" sign on things, the stronger it keeps coming back.
Well, you can use a more accurate term like "xenophobia", the idea remains the same : each person defines a certain group as his own and will reject those outside of it.
Also, NegroidZerg, I mean, what? Haha. Other than that, the video contradicts itself because it empasizes context and claims that words are neutral although they carry a certain history, which is part of that context. For example, we use the term "beotian" to qualify simple-minded people. Why? Because Athens, at the peak of her glory, looked down upon her weak pastoral neighbours among which was the region of Beotia.
Words don't appear out of thin air, they have a past, and it's often that past that gives them meaning, not the attitude of the person who uses them. If very polite lady told me that she saw "niggers" on the television, I would no doubt consider that she probably has a problem against blacks, even though she said if in a soft, polite way. Not only that, but the topic was more on how peole can use "nigger" as an insult. If words are all neutral, than how come such a term is used and perceived as an insult?
the problem with insults is that the person recieving them interprets the meaning and gives the insult power. The person dishing out the insult may really mean it, they may be fishing for a reaction, or they may be using it as "generic insult 253"
if a black person simply stops caring if they were called a nigger, the word loses all power and becomes just like any other insult (asshole, poopyhead, dicknose)
i think people who care about saying it are really stuck up. i have a black friend and we both call each other n*ggers, and its for the lulz.
now i wouldn't go up and call some black dude a n*gger, because that would be fucking stupid on my part, but using it online just towards someone (who generally isn't black, how many black people play sc2?) i think shouldn't be read as offensive.
pretty much: if someone is cool with it, then who cares. don't run up to a black guy and call him one, though, for obvious reasons.
When people are incredibly pissed they just say the meanest thing they can think of. In America, the worst word is probably nigger. That's the only real reason. It doesn't necessarily imply any racism or anything, just that when you think of mean words and you're American, it's definitely one of the first things that comes up.
Of course it being taken out of that context tends to lead to much unneeded drama, even outside of sc2.
I just get irritated at people who say "well black people call each other the N word, that means I can use it too"
No, ignorant people use the N word and they may happen to be of any race, white, black, purple, blue, that doesn't make it okay. There just isn't a good metaphor for what I'm trying to say, but I'll do my best: if my friend likes to wear red hats, and this other group of guys also wears hats like to get their cars keyed, does that make it okay to key my friends car?
Okay that was bad, I hope you chuckled at my fail metaphor like I did xD
Just out of curiosity, do people really never stereotype white people? I mean, I hear it all the time. Referring to something as a "white" thing to do, or calling someone a hick or trailer trash. If anything I think its more socially acceptable to stereotype the white race than any other race. Sort of like how in TV its far more acceptable to have the husband be the dull/dumb and lazy one in the marriage instead of the wife.
Je suis louisiannais et je peux expliquer a vous l'origine et la raison pourquoi le mot "N" est interdit dans la culture americaine.
Puisque je viens de l'endroit laquelle on appelle le "Deep South" (le Sud Profond) aux Etats-Unis, je pense que mon opinion serait le plus veritable de votre thread.
J'y avais deja posté, disant qu'il "faut terminer cet discussion." Ceci est a cause du fait que les gens de TL ne savent rien a propos de la raison. Y en a plusieurs qui ont deja dit des choses qui sont proche de la raison, mais ceci n'est pas assez important.
Bien que la plupart du peuple americain se sont grandit entouré d'opinion que le mot "N" est mal (et ceci est tellement vrai - ne soyez pas confusé avec ceci), la plupart de peuple americain ne savent pas l'histoire du mot.
Voici l'histoire:
Je suis certain que vous sachez deja l'exchange des africains aux pays d'Europe et aussi au Monde Nouveau. Je vais pas le discuter, donc.
En anglais, on apprend a l'ecole que cet exchange a ete appelé le "Middle Passage" (Chemin Moyen).
A cause de la racisme, et aussi de l'esclavage, les gens ont ete consideré "Sous-humain."
A cause de ca, il etait devenu ce mot "N" pour distinguer entre les esclaves et les "freemen" (hommes libres -- c'est 1 mot en anglais). Plus tard, les peuple ignorants ont changé le mot pour identifier ceux qui ont eu le peau noir en général. (Et puis, dans le monde d'aujourd'hui, il veut dire simplement un "sous-humain")
-=-=-
Eh oui, voici la raison veritable pourquoi les gens le degoute:
Il renforce très efficacement une société ancienne laquelle le peuple americain veut oublier.
Quand on dit ce mot "N", c'est une insulte a tous les peuple qui ont battu avec la racisme et la privation des droits civiques. C'est plus grande que les gens noirs, bien que l'origine du mot vient de ce monde ancien. Il nous fait s'en faire a propos des problemes lesquelles on pensait qu'on avait deja résolu... un fantome du monde ancien. Il est une symbole de la honte.
Mais les nations d'europe ont des choses similares. L'angleterre et L'ireland. Le suedes et les danes. La russie et les finns. Les coréenes et les japanois. Les chinois et les vietnamiens. Y a autant d'autres examples et je suis certain que vous pourriez s'en rencontre si vous voulez.
Ca fait les gens noirs s'en faire de son histoire, ou l'organization de la société était très different.
Dans votre thread, vous avez parlé de l'expresion "sale arabe." La raison que ce mot existe, c'est pour renforcer la superiorité de "nous" contre "eux". C'est pour renforcer qu'on est "sous-humain." La seule difference de le mot "N" contre l'expresion de quoi vous avez parlé? C'est de l'histoire du monde qui persiste aujourd'hui.
Le peuple americain a autant des chose a qui il faut se ressentir de la honte. Ceci est le symbol le plus souvent discuté.
Je pense maitenant a Kanye West qui a dit dans une de ces chansons, "Bien que on est dans un Mercedes-Benz, on n'est qu'un ["mot N"] avec un coupé." (link)
On May 03 2012 10:11 Kh0rne wrote: the problem with insults is that the person recieving them interprets the meaning and gives the insult power. The person dishing out the insult may really mean it, they may be fishing for a reaction, or they may be using it as "generic insult 253"
if a black person simply stops caring if they were called a nigger, the word loses all power and becomes just like any other insult (asshole, poopyhead, dicknose)
Wait, you mean it's my fault if someone calls me "a fucking chickenfucker" and I feel insulted?
On May 03 2012 12:02 Odal wrote: When people are incredibly pissed they just say the meanest thing they can think of. In America, the worst word is probably nigger. That's the only real reason. It doesn't necessarily imply any racism or anything, just that when you think of mean words and you're American, it's definitely one of the first things that comes up.
Of course it being taken out of that context tends to lead to much unneeded drama, even outside of sc2.
I guess this could explain the use of that word, but still, why that word? In France the worse might be "fils de pute" (son of a bitch), and you can easily understand why it's offensive : your mohter has seen many men, she deserves no respect, etc, etc.
On May 03 2012 12:47 MrDudeMan wrote: Just out of curiosity, do people really never stereotype white people? I mean, I hear it all the time. Referring to something as a "white" thing to do, or calling someone a hick or trailer trash. If anything I think its more socially acceptable to stereotype the white race than any other race. Sort of like how in TV its far more acceptable to have the husband be the dull/dumb and lazy one in the marriage instead of the wife.
What? Movies are filled with black and asian stereotypes. They even have a name : tokens. Rmember Token from South Part? He's a reference to that. It's the serie's black guy. And as far as I'm concerned, being called "white boy" isn't that offensive, I perceive it more as a mild mockery that states that I'm bad at basketball and I like Indie rock. I just doesn't seem natural to find it offensive because society doesn't consider it so.
On May 03 2012 22:09 rkffhk wrote: Hello.
I am from the deep south (Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama)..
Kindly stop this discussion.
I will PM the op and explain everything. I have read every post in this thread and nobody is really answering the question directly, so I will do it for him.
Because the op is French, and because I am originally from Louisiana, which is basically "New France" (they speak French there), I will be able to explain it to him properly.
That is all I have to say on this topic. Please end this thread.
Erm okay, but why should we stop talking about this? I believe it does no harm to anyone, as long as we keep it civil.
On May 02 2012 13:38 coZy wrote: STOP. THIS. FUCKING. DISCUSSION. Holy shit, TL, really? We don't need 500,000 threads since 2010 about racism and thoughts on it. There's been plenty of things happening in the community (ie: orb incident, stuff with destiny), but who gives a fuck? We don't need all these fucking threads.
That's why he blogged it. Why are your panties in a wad?
What's wrong with wearing panties, are you sexist?
On May 03 2012 10:11 Kh0rne wrote: if a black person simply stops caring if they were called a nigger, the word loses all power and becomes just like any other insult (asshole, poopyhead, dicknose)
Why do people believe this? It is simply not true.
EPT
