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Poland3748 Posts
In world of competetive gaming there is - really - only one thing that transcends moments and that thing is results. Whether the game are close or not, whether the tournament was won in dominating fashion or through blood and tears, the thing we remember are the name of the Champions (and runners-up; and sometimes the rest of top4).
It is nearly two years now and SC2 is well established. The foreign scene is struggling, however, to beat Koreans and not end up like in Brood War: crashed and outclassed. For months I believed that this time foreigners are closer to Koreans than they were before. But recently I dived a bit into SC:BW history and now I'm not so sure. Actually I'm afraid it may be the opposite.
The scene is different now. I will stick - however - to some assumptions. First - the  GSL is hands down the most important determinant of player's true skill. GSL is for WoL what OSL and KPGA/MSL was to BW. Second - there weren't (I may be wrong here) too many competitions between Koreans and Foreigners in BW. However there was one tournament that clashed top koreans against top foreigners - WCG - and I will use its history.
So far twelve GSL Starcraft Leagues were finished (I will ignore GSL WC as GOMTV basically invited top foreigners and seeded them into tournament).
What are foreigners' top results? Jinro's double Ro4, HuK's single Ro8 and IdrA single Ro8. I don't think any other foreign player get to Ro16 or above. On the other hand In the first 12 OSL/KPGAs (true MSL was actually 15th Starcraft League) Leagues the foreigners results were rather more impressive. First Grrrr... not only won 2000 Hanaro OSL but also was 3rd in 2001 Hanbitsoft OSL. Another hero was Elky who was 4th in 2002 SKY OSL but also delivered Ro16 or above results on 5 other occassions (but only one in first 12 starcraft leagues so I will limit his result to this; for reference - Starcraft Leagues Results). These are the only foreigners that ever achieved Ro4 or above. However in such GSL statistic we would have only Jinro with double semifinals. Somewhat less impressive. It's worth to note that these two heros of early BW age weren't the only one who were able to fight with top koreans. For example Asmodey Achieved Ro8 in SKY2001 OSL topping his Ro16 group 3-0. There were at least two other foreigners in Ro16 brood war starcraft leagues but as I'm not sure of the qualifying methods at the time so I will leave it at that.
At similar point in time in Brood War Elky was still active and fighting with Koreans. At this point in time in GSL Code S there are no foreigners with exception of NaNiwa who was given a seed so not - strictly speaking - earned spot. So the foreigners presence is declining in Starcraft League - just like in Brood War. The process is - however - much swifter and produced less impressive results.
We - fans - can always say that we are not at so bad spot in Foreigners vs Koreans rivalry because we are doing better in "foreign" tournaments.
Now - do we?
Leading liquipedians came up with a concept of "premier tournament" - tournament that will not be ignored even by top koreans. And then the following statistic was made: Premier Tournaments Medalists/Country. I added two "meta" countries mostly for the purpose of Foreigners/Koreans rivalry. On the 2012 year eve Koreans were losing 18:13 (in Golds). Now they are winning 21:18. In other words - foreigners are loosing rapidly. There are very few foreigners that can really compete with top Koreans: Stephano, HuK. Probably NaNiwa. Probably Ret. Maybe DIMAGA. Idra and Jinro - our past hopes - are in slumps. Feast is still a new thing and his IEM WC result - while impressive - has shown that while he can compete with very good koreans, there is significant gap between him and players of MMA calliber. In 2012 - as far as premier tournaments are concerned - we (foreigners) have two silvers (Stephano@Assembly, DIMAGA@IEM/KIEV), three bronzes (HuK@MLG/Arena,Ret@IEM/SP,Kas@IEM/Kiev) and two coppers (HuK@MLG/Winter,Feast@IEM/WC). During HSC4 and - most recently - IPL4 - foreigners were outside top4. Ouch.
Now it's worth to take a look at WCG. Koreans won all golds in Brood War@WCG history. They weren't - however - invincible and losses to foreigners happened. They always produced champions, though. The domination was not complete, though, and the last loss of a Korean happened in WCG 2007 where sAviOr lost to eventual Runner-up PJ. My point is - at this moment - that in BW age Koreans were (after Grrrr... and Elky) untouchable at the most premiere scenes (OSL/MSL) and while not just as invincible outside Korea, as a nation - head and shoulders above foreigners during important foreign events (if WCG is not enough - take a look at BlizzCon; that's actually more depressing). The pattern is similar now, with foreigners in Korea crushed (lately we could watch Idra's and Sen's meteor fall) completely and Korea winning outside it's homeground consistently.
Foreigners are loosing this rivalry and it is about time to turn tables, at least a little bit.
Feel free to point out all errors I have made and all inconsistencies. Or disagree - all comments are welcome 
 
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Foreigners are loosing this rivalry and it is about time to turn tables, at least a little bit.
Nice analysis, but how the hell do you propose to make this happen?
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I hope you mean losing? :D
All the Liquipedia links are messing with my reading.
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 11 2012 23:13 Grovbolle wrote:
I hope you mean losing? :D
All the Liquipedia links are messing with my reading.
Yea, I don't think I can correct this spelling error at this point. Shame on me :D
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Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future.
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I get your point, however the reason we are losing faster is because SC2 is somewhat similar to BW, and also WC3 (hear me out), meaning that a lot of people have some past experience in gaming, and thus will become better, faster because they can transfer some of their skills. And since Koreans are the best, they are also the best a lot faster. (if that makes sense)
When BW came out, it was fair game for a long time, and people didn't know exactly how to be succesful, however today in BW, (and SC2), everyone knows what it takes to be the best. At least to some degree.
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The gap is even more telling given how sc2 is light years behind bw in requirements to game mechanics, which basically negates a lot of skill differential. Something as unstable as sc2 in terms of balance and random outcomes should produce less onesidedness on paper. In reality it doesnt. Thats why korean pros deserve double the respect they get.
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Only 3 Koreans competed in WCG each year...
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 11 2012 23:38 Muirhead wrote:
Only 3 Koreans competed in WCG each year...
I know but I don't know how that changes anything I have written.
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Foreigner magic struck once in MLG Orlando, against (arguably) second-tier Korean competition.
Mark my words: we will never, ever claim another first place finish. It's not going to happen, so stop hoping. HuK woke a sleeping dragon and now foreigners will forever be shut out. It really is that simple.
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On April 11 2012 23:44 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 23:38 Muirhead wrote:
Only 3 Koreans competed in WCG each year... I know but I don't know how that changes anything I have written.
Well comparing the number of times 1-3 Koreans placed below a foreigner in WCG with the number of times 20 Koreans placed below a foreigner at IPL seems a bit unfair.
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Poland3748 Posts
I don't think I relied on the 1-3 places at WCG as sometimes it was impossible. I relied on the last loss of a korean to a foreigner (and it wasn't the first) and on the 100% of WCG golds located in South Korea.
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Results only tell part of the tale. You can argue that the divide is starting to manifest itself more quickly than in 2001 BW (not surprising considering there was no established pro scene back then, so talented players like Grrrr could be world-class), but please don't compare the Korean dominance in Sc2 with that in BW. They're on completely different levels. In Sc2, it's a surprise if a foreigner wins WCG over the Koreans. In BW it was a surprise if any non-Korean took a single game vs any of the Koreans.
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 12 2012 00:10 Orome wrote:
Results only tell part of the tale. You can argue that the divide is starting to manifest itself more quickly than in 2001 BW (not surprising considering there was no established pro scene back then, so talented players like Grrrr could be world-class), but please don't compare the Korean dominance in Sc2 with that in BW. They're on completely different levels. In Sc2, it's a surprise if a foreigner wins WCG over the Koreans. In BW it was a surprise if any non-Korean took a single game vs any of the Koreans.
I don't think it was that surprising in 2000 and 2001. By 2005 it was definitely true but we are not in 2014, yet.
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United Kingdom1667 Posts
On April 11 2012 23:27 deathly rat wrote:
Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future.
Where on earth do you get the idea of "non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition". That's proven completely false by actual, real-world statistics and facts, many of which are right there in the article!
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On April 12 2012 00:14 ImbaTosS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 23:27 deathly rat wrote:
Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future. Where on earth do you get the idea of "non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition". That's proven completely false by actual, real-world statistics and facts, many of which are right there in the article!
I see you are in the "Koreans own white dudes" camp. I'll just wait until the next time a non-Korean wins a tournament and see if you still have the same opinion.
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On April 12 2012 00:24 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 00:14 ImbaTosS wrote:On April 11 2012 23:27 deathly rat wrote:
Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future. Where on earth do you get the idea of "non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition". That's proven completely false by actual, real-world statistics and facts, many of which are right there in the article! I see you are in the "Koreans own white dudes" camp. I'll just wait until the next time a non-Korean wins a tournament and see if you still have the same opinion.
HuK brought on the Korean rage when he won MLG Orlando. Every SC2 tournament from now on, in foreign territory or not, will now be filled with Code S Koreans. Who's going to beat them? Stephano? HuK? Naniwa? Foreigners will probably get a few top 3 finishes, but they most likely will never win a major SC2 tourney again.
Just look at the recent MLG and Winter Arena, IPL, IEM, etc.
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some foriengers beat koreans some koreans beat foreigners
not every single korean is miles ahead of foriengers and not every code S korean never ever ever loses a map to a foreigner
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On April 12 2012 00:24 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 00:14 ImbaTosS wrote:On April 11 2012 23:27 deathly rat wrote:
Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future. Where on earth do you get the idea of "non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition". That's proven completely false by actual, real-world statistics and facts, many of which are right there in the article! I see you are in the "Koreans own white dudes" camp. I'll just wait until the next time a non-Korean wins a tournament and see if you still have the same opinion.
This wont happen, at least not with this format where players actually have to face multiple opponents (sometimes repeatedly) on their way to finals. Even if there's a talented foreigner (or two) that can ball with top dogs, his chances to be in the finals are marginal. Consider that so far almost everyone is korean in the top of the bracket so that one imaginary foreigner that has a skillset to consistently play on par with koreans will have to face 5 or more opponents where he is basically flipping a coin. Even if he is 60% likely to win vs anyone statistically he still has almost no shot.
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Korea has more top level players than every other country combined. There's nothing to discuss here, really. Koreans do own white dudes (and every other sort of non Korean dudes) indeed, in general. The very fact that the so called rivalry is between Koreans and non Koreans tells you everything you need to know about the skill levels in the countries of the world. You can have the "Foreigner X is going to Korea to train and improve" hypes icing on the cake too if you like.
The thing is, I hardly understand why does it even matter. I personally don't care if a player is Korean or Ukrainian or American. Yes I am non Korean but I am non American as well. Why would one matter more to me than another? Why a German rooting for Idra because Idra is non Korean is "normal", while a German rooting for MMA because he's a non American would be immediately labeled with good old "antiamericanism" label?
Interesting games, good skill, good sportsmanship, rich personality is all I care about. Nationality? Hell no. Something as broad and silly as "foreigner"? Lol what...
...and see if you still have the same opinion.
Better wait till MarineKing or other top level Korean goes to Ukraine to "train among Foreigners to improve his skill", then I very well might change my opinion.
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On April 12 2012 01:24 Sejanus wrote:
Korea has more top level players than every other country combined. There's nothing to discuss here, really. Koreans do own white dudes (and every other sort of non Korean dudes) indeed, in general. The very fact that the so called rivalry is between Koreans and non Koreans tells you everything you need to know about the skill levels in the countries of the world.
The thing is, I hardly understand why does it even matter. I personally don't care if a player is Korean or Ukrainian or American. Yes I am non Korean but I am non American as well. Why would one matter more to me than another? Why a German rooting for Idra because Idra is non Korean is "normal", while a German rooting for MMA because he's a non American would be immediately labeled with good old "antiamericanism" label?
Interesting games, good skill, good sportsmanship, rich personality is all I care about. Nationality? Hell no. Something as broad and silly as "foreigner"? Lol what...
The thing is though that many people actually do care. They want foreigners to win, because they are foreigners. That simple.
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Baa?21242 Posts
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Poland3748 Posts
I didn't even know there was wcg 2v2 :-)
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On April 12 2012 00:13 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 00:10 Orome wrote:
Results only tell part of the tale. You can argue that the divide is starting to manifest itself more quickly than in 2001 BW (not surprising considering there was no established pro scene back then, so talented players like Grrrr could be world-class), but please don't compare the Korean dominance in Sc2 with that in BW. They're on completely different levels. In Sc2, it's a surprise if a foreigner wins WCG over the Koreans. In BW it was a surprise if any non-Korean took a single game vs any of the Koreans. I don't think it was that surprising in 2000 and 2001. By 2005 it was definitely true but we are not in 2014, yet.
As I said, if you're just making that argument, that's fine (although again, it's not surprising considering the state of the BW pro scene in 2001). By giving the Savior example of 2007, you seemed to be comparing Sc2 now to the more modern BW times as well.
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Yeah, foreigners are totally gonna turn those tables 360 degrees.
I think foreigners should put in more hours to be quite honest. Insane amounts of practice helps when you're not a natural genius at everything like Flash.
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On April 12 2012 03:21 ymir233 wrote:
Yeah, foreigners are totally gonna turn those tables 360 degrees.
I think foreigners should put in more hours to be quite honest. Insane amounts of practice helps when you're not a natural genius at everything like Flash.
Hmm.. I always felt that Stork is more of the genius type... Flash is a healthy mix between talent and hardwork.
And no, from what i gather, the current gap in skills b/w Foreigners and Korean in SC2 is light-years away as compared to that of Brood War.
A Foreigner taking a series off top Korean SC2 player? Hmm.. unlikely, but possible.
A Foreigner taking a game off Flash? The chances are outlandish. And i'm not even talking about a series.
In WCG, Koreans didn't really play seriously, from what i know. It mostly was a vacation tour for them. I'm not trying to take away anything from people who beat a Korean, but the preparation, the intensity, just definitely not there.
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Im sorry, but your analysis is complete garbage. Here is why:
The BW foreigner results you post were made way before any firm team based pro-gaming structure was set. It was in the beginning, before clear schedules and A/B teams were established. There's a big difference between 7-8 guys living together and practicing (sorta like NA team houses now) and ~20-30 guys competing for an A-team spot, most of whom are already cream of the crop of raw talent.
Your analysis is flawed because it fail to reflect the three main developments in the KR vs. World dichotomy.
Stage one: early in sc2 we saw only sporadic participation of korea based pros. There were some foreign based ones, Select comes to mind.
Stage two: GSL/MLG partnership. Not only did we see more koreans come because of invites, but the ones that came mostly received a new seed because of past performance.
Stage three: Team partnerships. This enabled even more koreans to travel because most korean teams cant afford to send their players abroad. It also has the additive effect of re-invitation that we saw in GSL/MLG.
So i think the 18:13 reversed to 21:18 is actually a good sign. The korean skill level has increased immensely in this past year. Code S is looking so insanely hard. And seeing how its almost exclusively the best koreans that travel abroad, Id say "we" are keeping up pretty well - all things considered.
So what is the reason koreans were the best at BW and are the best now?
Discipline and concentrated skill. It's kind of obvious, so i wont take much time with it. Having skill concentrated like on the KR server exponentially improves everyones skill. If every opponent is amazing, you have to be amazing to even contend for the top. A top player on NA/EU (even more true for SEA) probably have to play several games to find a good opponent. Being matched against players of your caliber (or above) is unequivocally the best way to improve. If you get ahead of the curb on NA/EU, you've got nothing to do. If you do it on KR your probably top 10 in the world.
And when you even add team houses, with people learning from each other _and_ keeping a strict schedule with outrageous amounts of practice it becomes kinda obvious why KR is leaping ahead. That is why every foreign pro stresses the need to go to korea.
All in all, the OP isnt that bad. I really enjoyed the list of medalists of major tournaments.
Next time if you really want to put the work in and come up with a good analysis:
Make a casestudy of every korean pro that was picked up by a foreign team and moved abroad. My prediction is that their results will spike due to better non-practice related circumstances. (more money, more freedom, exciting new place, etc.)
And then slowly wear off over the next three or so months due to lack of good practice. In the end they will end up as skilled, but not premiere progamers. (Like fnatic.Rain for instance) The metagame and skill changes extremely fast for such a young game and if youre not in the center of it (korea) your on the back foot at once.
My two cents
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 12 2012 02:50 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 00:13 nimdil wrote:On April 12 2012 00:10 Orome wrote:
Results only tell part of the tale. You can argue that the divide is starting to manifest itself more quickly than in 2001 BW (not surprising considering there was no established pro scene back then, so talented players like Grrrr could be world-class), but please don't compare the Korean dominance in Sc2 with that in BW. They're on completely different levels. In Sc2, it's a surprise if a foreigner wins WCG over the Koreans. In BW it was a surprise if any non-Korean took a single game vs any of the Koreans. I don't think it was that surprising in 2000 and 2001. By 2005 it was definitely true but we are not in 2014, yet. As I said, if you're just making that argument, that's fine (although again, it's not surprising considering the state of the BW pro scene in 2001). By giving the Savior example of 2007, you seemed to be comparing Sc2 now to the more modern BW times as well.
Maybe it was not clear. The loss of sAviOr to PJ was - for me - the end of era of BW that SC2 is currently in: era when Koreans are dominating-crushing the most premiere Starcraft Leagues (MSL/OSL and GSL) and are winning outside of it but are not untouchable. After that Koreans are untouchable. In the beginning of this period Koreans are winning, then they are winning more and more and finally they are not losing. In SC:BW the "not losing" was after sAviOr < PJ. In SC2 we are at "then they are winnning more".
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 12 2012 03:54 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:21 ymir233 wrote:
Yeah, foreigners are totally gonna turn those tables 360 degrees.
I think foreigners should put in more hours to be quite honest. Insane amounts of practice helps when you're not a natural genius at everything like Flash. Hmm.. I always felt that Stork is more of the genius type... Flash is a healthy mix between talent and hardwork. And no, from what i gather, the current gap in skills b/w Foreigners and Korean in SC2 is light-years away as compared to that of Brood War. A Foreigner taking a series off top Korean SC2 player? Hmm.. unlikely, but possible. A Foreigner taking a game off Flash? The chances are outlandish. And i'm not even talking about a series. In WCG, Koreans didn't really play seriously, from what i know. It mostly was a vacation tour for them. I'm not trying to take away anything from people who beat a Korean, but the preparation, the intensity, just definitely not there.
The level of development of SC2 that is equivalent to Flash will be around 2020. Look at the links I provided and players. They were taking games from Koreans. Even in first WCGs it happened (i.e. WCG 2002: Essay was 6-1 in group stage and later lost to Blackman in double-elimination bracket. Elky > Starsin; worth to note that Nazgul was tied for 7/8th place )
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It's pretty obvious you're just looking at results and not actual gameplay, because that's not a very good analogy at all. From 2004 on, Koreans were completely untouchable (and no, one loss from Mr. match fixer Savior does not prove anything to the contrary) in a way Sc2 Koreans can only dream of.
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On April 12 2012 05:07 nimdil wrote:
The level of development of SC2 that is equivalent to Flash will be around 2020.QUOTE]
I'm not sure how you can equate game to a player; still my guess would be not 2020 but the year Flash switches to sc2. Could be next year.
I'm not sure how you can equate a game to a player; still my guess would be not 2020 but the year Flash switches to sc2. Could be next year.
It's crazy to not account for existing infrastructure and talent since it is directly transferrable from bw to sc2. Sc2 is already at the level bw was in mid 2000s at the least.
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 12 2012 04:58 Aphasie wrote:
Im sorry, but your analysis is complete garbage. Here is why:
The BW foreigner results you post were made way before any firm team based pro-gaming structure was set. It was in the beginning, before clear schedules and A/B teams were established. There's a big difference between 7-8 guys living together and practicing (sorta like NA team houses now) and ~20-30 guys competing for an A-team spot, most of whom are already cream of the crop of raw talent.
Your analysis is flawed because it fail to reflect the three main developments in the KR vs. World dichotomy.
Stage one: early in sc2 we saw only sporadic participation of korea based pros. There were some foreign based ones, Select comes to mind.
Stage two: GSL/MLG partnership. Not only did we see more koreans come because of invites, but the ones that came mostly received a new seed because of past performance.
Stage three: Team partnerships. This enabled even more koreans to travel because most korean teams cant afford to send their players abroad. It also has the additive effect of re-invitation that we saw in GSL/MLG.
So i think the 18:13 reversed to 21:18 is actually a good sign. The korean skill level has increased immensely in this past year. Code S is looking so insanely hard. And seeing how its almost exclusively the best koreans that travel abroad, Id say "we" are keeping up pretty well - all things considered.
So what is the reason koreans were the best at BW and are the best now?
Discipline and concentrated skill. It's kind of obvious, so i wont take much time with it. Having skill concentrated like on the KR server exponentially improves everyones skill. If every opponent is amazing, you have to be amazing to even contend for the top. A top player on NA/EU (even more true for SEA) probably have to play several games to find a good opponent. Being matched against players of your caliber (or above) is unequivocally the best way to improve. If you get ahead of the curb on NA/EU, you've got nothing to do. If you do it on KR your probably top 10 in the world.
And when you even add team houses, with people learning from each other _and_ keeping a strict schedule with outrageous amounts of practice it becomes kinda obvious why KR is leaping ahead. That is why every foreign pro stresses the need to go to korea.
All in all, the OP isnt that bad. I really enjoyed the list of medalists of major tournaments.
Next time if you really want to put the work in and come up with a good analysis:
Make a casestudy of every korean pro that was picked up by a foreign team and moved abroad. My prediction is that their results will spike due to better non-practice related circumstances. (more money, more freedom, exciting new place, etc.)
And then slowly wear off over the next three or so months due to lack of good practice. In the end they will end up as skilled, but not premiere progamers. (Like fnatic.Rain for instance) The metagame and skill changes extremely fast for such a young game and if youre not in the center of it (korea) your on the back foot at once.
My two cents
I appreciate the comment. I partially agree. However I will say this: details. The scene was totall different in early SC:BW and now but the imbalance is similar. The situation were different but it was different there and now for dozens of reasons and detailed enough analysis is next to impossible. But results are comparable and I focused on them.
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 12 2012 05:14 ecstatica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 05:07 nimdil wrote:
The level of development of SC2 that is equivalent to Flash will be around 2020. I'm not sure how you can equate game to a player; still my guess would be not 2020 but the year Flash switches to sc2. Could be next year. It's crazy to not account for existing infrastructure and talent since it is directly transferrable from bw to sc2. Sc2 is already at the level bw was in mid 2000s at the least.
My point is that Flash is Bonjwa now. After more than 10 years of development of the game. SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison.There are many factors: Koreans have talent transferred from BW and progaming culture. Foreigners have passion and $$. Etc etc etc.
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 11 2012 23:58 jeeeeohn wrote:
Foreigner magic struck once in MLG Orlando, against (arguably) second-tier Korean competition.
Mark my words: we will never, ever claim another first place finish. It's not going to happen, so stop hoping. HuK woke a sleeping dragon and now foreigners will forever be shut out. It really is that simple.
There was IPL3 with Stephano winning against MMA, TheStC etc. Ret and IdrA were tied for 5-8 - decent result as well!
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On April 12 2012 05:28 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 05:14 ecstatica wrote:On April 12 2012 05:07 nimdil wrote:
The level of development of SC2 that is equivalent to Flash will be around 2020. I'm not sure how you can equate game to a player; still my guess would be not 2020 but the year Flash switches to sc2. Could be next year. It's crazy to not account for existing infrastructure and talent since it is directly transferrable from bw to sc2. Sc2 is already at the level bw was in mid 2000s at the least. My point is that Flash is Bonjwa now. After more than 10 years of development of the game. SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison.There are many factors: Koreans have talent transferred from BW and progaming culture. Foreigners have passion and $$. Etc etc etc.
The moment i realised that you are one of those guys that chant this argument
SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison.
all your other arguments start to lose their footings.
In case you missed it (god this stuff gets mentioned so many times in the past it's not funny), Brood War didn't learn Micro until Boxer, Macro till Oov, FFE till Daezang, and a whole bunch of other things.
How long did it take for all that to appear in SC2?
Infancy? Hahaha yea, SC2 guys loved that argument cos we can't jump 10 years into the future to lol at them.
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 12 2012 06:17 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 05:28 nimdil wrote:On April 12 2012 05:14 ecstatica wrote:On April 12 2012 05:07 nimdil wrote:
The level of development of SC2 that is equivalent to Flash will be around 2020. I'm not sure how you can equate game to a player; still my guess would be not 2020 but the year Flash switches to sc2. Could be next year. It's crazy to not account for existing infrastructure and talent since it is directly transferrable from bw to sc2. Sc2 is already at the level bw was in mid 2000s at the least. My point is that Flash is Bonjwa now. After more than 10 years of development of the game. SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison.There are many factors: Koreans have talent transferred from BW and progaming culture. Foreigners have passion and $$. Etc etc etc. The moment i realised that you are one of those guys that chant this argument all your other arguments start to lose their footings. In case you missed it (god this stuff gets mentioned so many times in the past it's not funny), Brood War didn't learn Micro until Boxer, Macro till Oov, FFE till Daezang, and a whole bunch of other things. How long did it take for all that to appear in SC2? Infancy? Hahaha yea, SC2 guys loved that argument cos we can't jump 10 years into the future to lol at them.
Byy my standard - infancy will end some time after Legacy of the Void because you can't really develop gameplay if there are huge game changes just around the corner (new units in, old units out etc). WoL is not in infancy but SC2 as a whole still is.
Funny how in your opinion one argument you don't agree with makes all other aguments fall apart even unrelated one.
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On April 12 2012 06:23 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:17 ffreakk wrote:On April 12 2012 05:28 nimdil wrote:On April 12 2012 05:14 ecstatica wrote:On April 12 2012 05:07 nimdil wrote:
The level of development of SC2 that is equivalent to Flash will be around 2020. I'm not sure how you can equate game to a player; still my guess would be not 2020 but the year Flash switches to sc2. Could be next year. It's crazy to not account for existing infrastructure and talent since it is directly transferrable from bw to sc2. Sc2 is already at the level bw was in mid 2000s at the least. My point is that Flash is Bonjwa now. After more than 10 years of development of the game. SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison.There are many factors: Koreans have talent transferred from BW and progaming culture. Foreigners have passion and $$. Etc etc etc. The moment i realised that you are one of those guys that chant this argument SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison. all your other arguments start to lose their footings. In case you missed it (god this stuff gets mentioned so many times in the past it's not funny), Brood War didn't learn Micro until Boxer, Macro till Oov, FFE till Daezang, and a whole bunch of other things. How long did it take for all that to appear in SC2? Infancy? Hahaha yea, SC2 guys loved that argument cos we can't jump 10 years into the future to lol at them. Byy my standard - infancy will end some time after Legacy of the Void because you can't really develop gameplay if there are huge game changes just around the corner (new units in, old units out etc). WoL is not in infancy but SC2 as a whole still is. Funny how in your opinion one argument you don't agree with makes all other aguments fall apart even unrelated one.
Actually it's rather logical.
A silly/shallow argument reflects poorly on one's maturity and intellect. It's usually unwise to spend time/attention on these kind of people, because it quite simply isn't worth it.
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 12 2012 06:50 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:23 nimdil wrote:On April 12 2012 06:17 ffreakk wrote:On April 12 2012 05:28 nimdil wrote:On April 12 2012 05:14 ecstatica wrote:On April 12 2012 05:07 nimdil wrote:
The level of development of SC2 that is equivalent to Flash will be around 2020. I'm not sure how you can equate game to a player; still my guess would be not 2020 but the year Flash switches to sc2. Could be next year. It's crazy to not account for existing infrastructure and talent since it is directly transferrable from bw to sc2. Sc2 is already at the level bw was in mid 2000s at the least. My point is that Flash is Bonjwa now. After more than 10 years of development of the game. SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison.There are many factors: Koreans have talent transferred from BW and progaming culture. Foreigners have passion and $$. Etc etc etc. The moment i realised that you are one of those guys that chant this argument SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison. all your other arguments start to lose their footings. In case you missed it (god this stuff gets mentioned so many times in the past it's not funny), Brood War didn't learn Micro until Boxer, Macro till Oov, FFE till Daezang, and a whole bunch of other things. How long did it take for all that to appear in SC2? Infancy? Hahaha yea, SC2 guys loved that argument cos we can't jump 10 years into the future to lol at them. Byy my standard - infancy will end some time after Legacy of the Void because you can't really develop gameplay if there are huge game changes just around the corner (new units in, old units out etc). WoL is not in infancy but SC2 as a whole still is. Funny how in your opinion one argument you don't agree with makes all other aguments fall apart even unrelated one. Actually it's rather logical. A silly/shallow argument reflects poorly on one's maturity and intellect. It's usually unwise to spend time/attention on these kind of people, because it quite simply isn't worth it.
By that logic everyone who says something idiotic at least once is a total idiot. That's rubbish, not logic. You deny people right to be wrong.
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Why do we always make threads like this, we don't win every time, we don't lose everytime either, just wait on it and see in 5 years if we lose or win dude.
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We would be crushing face easily if Mondragon decided to play more.
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Foreigners will need to wait for HoTS where there will be a metagame (heh) reset and they will again stand a chance at winning some tournaments. When things stabilise, foreigners will quickly fall behind again.
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On April 12 2012 00:14 ImbaTosS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 23:27 deathly rat wrote:
Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future. Where on earth do you get the idea of "non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition". That's proven completely false by actual, real-world statistics and facts, many of which are right there in the article!
Does Naniwa have to do more than crush his Code S group in order to prove to you that there are some top international players that can compete with the best Korea has to offer?
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On April 13 2012 21:55 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 00:14 ImbaTosS wrote:On April 11 2012 23:27 deathly rat wrote:
Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future. Where on earth do you get the idea of "non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition". That's proven completely false by actual, real-world statistics and facts, many of which are right there in the article! Does Naniwa have to do more than crush his Code S group in order to prove to you that there are some top international players that can compete with the best Korea has to offer?
I guess youre excited for another ro16 appearance.
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On April 14 2012 00:22 ecstatica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 21:55 deathly rat wrote:On April 12 2012 00:14 ImbaTosS wrote:On April 11 2012 23:27 deathly rat wrote:
Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future. Where on earth do you get the idea of "non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition". That's proven completely false by actual, real-world statistics and facts, many of which are right there in the article! Does Naniwa have to do more than crush his Code S group in order to prove to you that there are some top international players that can compete with the best Korea has to offer? I guess youre excited for another ro16 appearance.
Not really, i was the one saying that top foreigners are able to compete with top Koreans
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On April 14 2012 00:39 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 00:22 ecstatica wrote:On April 13 2012 21:55 deathly rat wrote:On April 12 2012 00:14 ImbaTosS wrote:On April 11 2012 23:27 deathly rat wrote:
Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future. Where on earth do you get the idea of "non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition". That's proven completely false by actual, real-world statistics and facts, many of which are right there in the article! Does Naniwa have to do more than crush his Code S group in order to prove to you that there are some top international players that can compete with the best Korea has to offer? I guess youre excited for another ro16 appearance. Not really, i was the one saying that top foreigners are able to compete with top Koreans
You can argue those were not top koreans that naniwa beat. And "compete" implies more than falling out in the first round past group stage.
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On April 14 2012 02:05 ecstatica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 00:39 deathly rat wrote:On April 14 2012 00:22 ecstatica wrote:On April 13 2012 21:55 deathly rat wrote:On April 12 2012 00:14 ImbaTosS wrote:On April 11 2012 23:27 deathly rat wrote:
Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future. Where on earth do you get the idea of "non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition". That's proven completely false by actual, real-world statistics and facts, many of which are right there in the article! Does Naniwa have to do more than crush his Code S group in order to prove to you that there are some top international players that can compete with the best Korea has to offer? I guess youre excited for another ro16 appearance. Not really, i was the one saying that top foreigners are able to compete with top Koreans You can argue those were not top koreans that naniwa beat. And "compete" implies more than falling out in the first round past group stage.
You can't say that GSL is the only competition where you can judge skill, and then say that the people in code S aren't top players.
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EPT
