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Poland3746 Posts
In world of competetive gaming there is - really - only one thing that transcends moments and that thing is results. Whether the game are close or not, whether the tournament was won in dominating fashion or through blood and tears, the thing we remember are the name of the Champions (and runners-up; and sometimes the rest of top4).
It is nearly two years now and SC2 is well established. The foreign scene is struggling, however, to beat Koreans and not end up like in Brood War: crashed and outclassed. For months I believed that this time foreigners are closer to Koreans than they were before. But recently I dived a bit into SC:BW history and now I'm not so sure. Actually I'm afraid it may be the opposite.
The scene is different now. I will stick - however - to some assumptions. First - the  GSL is hands down the most important determinant of player's true skill. GSL is for WoL what OSL and KPGA/MSL was to BW. Second - there weren't (I may be wrong here) too many competitions between Koreans and Foreigners in BW. However there was one tournament that clashed top koreans against top foreigners - WCG - and I will use its history.
So far twelve GSL Starcraft Leagues were finished (I will ignore GSL WC as GOMTV basically invited top foreigners and seeded them into tournament).
What are foreigners' top results? Jinro's double Ro4, HuK's single Ro8 and IdrA single Ro8. I don't think any other foreign player get to Ro16 or above. On the other hand In the first 12 OSL/KPGAs (true MSL was actually 15th Starcraft League) Leagues the foreigners results were rather more impressive. First Grrrr... not only won 2000 Hanaro OSL but also was 3rd in 2001 Hanbitsoft OSL. Another hero was Elky who was 4th in 2002 SKY OSL but also delivered Ro16 or above results on 5 other occassions (but only one in first 12 starcraft leagues so I will limit his result to this; for reference - Starcraft Leagues Results). These are the only foreigners that ever achieved Ro4 or above. However in such GSL statistic we would have only Jinro with double semifinals. Somewhat less impressive. It's worth to note that these two heros of early BW age weren't the only one who were able to fight with top koreans. For example Asmodey Achieved Ro8 in SKY2001 OSL topping his Ro16 group 3-0. There were at least two other foreigners in Ro16 brood war starcraft leagues but as I'm not sure of the qualifying methods at the time so I will leave it at that.
At similar point in time in Brood War Elky was still active and fighting with Koreans. At this point in time in GSL Code S there are no foreigners with exception of NaNiwa who was given a seed so not - strictly speaking - earned spot. So the foreigners presence is declining in Starcraft League - just like in Brood War. The process is - however - much swifter and produced less impressive results.
We - fans - can always say that we are not at so bad spot in Foreigners vs Koreans rivalry because we are doing better in "foreign" tournaments.
Now - do we?
Leading liquipedians came up with a concept of "premier tournament" - tournament that will not be ignored even by top koreans. And then the following statistic was made: Premier Tournaments Medalists/Country. I added two "meta" countries mostly for the purpose of Foreigners/Koreans rivalry. On the 2012 year eve Koreans were losing 18:13 (in Golds). Now they are winning 21:18. In other words - foreigners are loosing rapidly. There are very few foreigners that can really compete with top Koreans: Stephano, HuK. Probably NaNiwa. Probably Ret. Maybe DIMAGA. Idra and Jinro - our past hopes - are in slumps. Feast is still a new thing and his IEM WC result - while impressive - has shown that while he can compete with very good koreans, there is significant gap between him and players of MMA calliber. In 2012 - as far as premier tournaments are concerned - we (foreigners) have two silvers (Stephano@Assembly, DIMAGA@IEM/KIEV), three bronzes (HuK@MLG/Arena,Ret@IEM/SP,Kas@IEM/Kiev) and two coppers (HuK@MLG/Winter,Feast@IEM/WC). During HSC4 and - most recently - IPL4 - foreigners were outside top4. Ouch.
Now it's worth to take a look at WCG. Koreans won all golds in Brood War@WCG history. They weren't - however - invincible and losses to foreigners happened. They always produced champions, though. The domination was not complete, though, and the last loss of a Korean happened in WCG 2007 where sAviOr lost to eventual Runner-up PJ. My point is - at this moment - that in BW age Koreans were (after Grrrr... and Elky) untouchable at the most premiere scenes (OSL/MSL) and while not just as invincible outside Korea, as a nation - head and shoulders above foreigners during important foreign events (if WCG is not enough - take a look at BlizzCon; that's actually more depressing). The pattern is similar now, with foreigners in Korea crushed (lately we could watch Idra's and Sen's meteor fall) completely and Korea winning outside it's homeground consistently.
Foreigners are loosing this rivalry and it is about time to turn tables, at least a little bit.
Feel free to point out all errors I have made and all inconsistencies. Or disagree - all comments are welcome 
 
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Foreigners are loosing this rivalry and it is about time to turn tables, at least a little bit.
Nice analysis, but how the hell do you propose to make this happen?
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I hope you mean losing? :D
All the Liquipedia links are messing with my reading.
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Poland3746 Posts
On April 11 2012 23:13 Grovbolle wrote:
I hope you mean losing? :D
All the Liquipedia links are messing with my reading.
Yea, I don't think I can correct this spelling error at this point. Shame on me :D
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Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future.
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I get your point, however the reason we are losing faster is because SC2 is somewhat similar to BW, and also WC3 (hear me out), meaning that a lot of people have some past experience in gaming, and thus will become better, faster because they can transfer some of their skills. And since Koreans are the best, they are also the best a lot faster. (if that makes sense)
When BW came out, it was fair game for a long time, and people didn't know exactly how to be succesful, however today in BW, (and SC2), everyone knows what it takes to be the best. At least to some degree.
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The gap is even more telling given how sc2 is light years behind bw in requirements to game mechanics, which basically negates a lot of skill differential. Something as unstable as sc2 in terms of balance and random outcomes should produce less onesidedness on paper. In reality it doesnt. Thats why korean pros deserve double the respect they get.
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Only 3 Koreans competed in WCG each year...
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Poland3746 Posts
On April 11 2012 23:38 Muirhead wrote:
Only 3 Koreans competed in WCG each year...
I know but I don't know how that changes anything I have written.
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Foreigner magic struck once in MLG Orlando, against (arguably) second-tier Korean competition.
Mark my words: we will never, ever claim another first place finish. It's not going to happen, so stop hoping. HuK woke a sleeping dragon and now foreigners will forever be shut out. It really is that simple.
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On April 11 2012 23:44 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 23:38 Muirhead wrote:
Only 3 Koreans competed in WCG each year... I know but I don't know how that changes anything I have written.
Well comparing the number of times 1-3 Koreans placed below a foreigner in WCG with the number of times 20 Koreans placed below a foreigner at IPL seems a bit unfair.
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Poland3746 Posts
I don't think I relied on the 1-3 places at WCG as sometimes it was impossible. I relied on the last loss of a korean to a foreigner (and it wasn't the first) and on the 100% of WCG golds located in South Korea.
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Results only tell part of the tale. You can argue that the divide is starting to manifest itself more quickly than in 2001 BW (not surprising considering there was no established pro scene back then, so talented players like Grrrr could be world-class), but please don't compare the Korean dominance in Sc2 with that in BW. They're on completely different levels. In Sc2, it's a surprise if a foreigner wins WCG over the Koreans. In BW it was a surprise if any non-Korean took a single game vs any of the Koreans.
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Poland3746 Posts
On April 12 2012 00:10 Orome wrote:
Results only tell part of the tale. You can argue that the divide is starting to manifest itself more quickly than in 2001 BW (not surprising considering there was no established pro scene back then, so talented players like Grrrr could be world-class), but please don't compare the Korean dominance in Sc2 with that in BW. They're on completely different levels. In Sc2, it's a surprise if a foreigner wins WCG over the Koreans. In BW it was a surprise if any non-Korean took a single game vs any of the Koreans.
I don't think it was that surprising in 2000 and 2001. By 2005 it was definitely true but we are not in 2014, yet.
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United Kingdom1666 Posts
On April 11 2012 23:27 deathly rat wrote:
Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future.
Where on earth do you get the idea of "non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition". That's proven completely false by actual, real-world statistics and facts, many of which are right there in the article!
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On April 12 2012 00:14 ImbaTosS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 23:27 deathly rat wrote:
Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future. Where on earth do you get the idea of "non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition". That's proven completely false by actual, real-world statistics and facts, many of which are right there in the article!
I see you are in the "Koreans own white dudes" camp. I'll just wait until the next time a non-Korean wins a tournament and see if you still have the same opinion.
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On April 12 2012 00:24 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 00:14 ImbaTosS wrote:On April 11 2012 23:27 deathly rat wrote:
Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future. Where on earth do you get the idea of "non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition". That's proven completely false by actual, real-world statistics and facts, many of which are right there in the article! I see you are in the "Koreans own white dudes" camp. I'll just wait until the next time a non-Korean wins a tournament and see if you still have the same opinion.
HuK brought on the Korean rage when he won MLG Orlando. Every SC2 tournament from now on, in foreign territory or not, will now be filled with Code S Koreans. Who's going to beat them? Stephano? HuK? Naniwa? Foreigners will probably get a few top 3 finishes, but they most likely will never win a major SC2 tourney again.
Just look at the recent MLG and Winter Arena, IPL, IEM, etc.
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some foriengers beat koreans some koreans beat foreigners
not every single korean is miles ahead of foriengers and not every code S korean never ever ever loses a map to a foreigner
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On April 12 2012 00:24 deathly rat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 00:14 ImbaTosS wrote:On April 11 2012 23:27 deathly rat wrote:
Every time a non-Korean wins somebody writes a blog about how the foreigner scene is catching up, and every time Koreans win some tourneys somebody writes about how Koreans own white dudes. It's not either of these things. There are obviously a lot of very good players from Korea, probably more top level players than the rest of the world combined, but there are also very good non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition. This state of affairs isn't changing from week to week, or even month to month, that's just how it is and will be for the foreseeable future. Where on earth do you get the idea of "non-Koreans that would compete with the best in the GSL or any competition". That's proven completely false by actual, real-world statistics and facts, many of which are right there in the article! I see you are in the "Koreans own white dudes" camp. I'll just wait until the next time a non-Korean wins a tournament and see if you still have the same opinion.
This wont happen, at least not with this format where players actually have to face multiple opponents (sometimes repeatedly) on their way to finals. Even if there's a talented foreigner (or two) that can ball with top dogs, his chances to be in the finals are marginal. Consider that so far almost everyone is korean in the top of the bracket so that one imaginary foreigner that has a skillset to consistently play on par with koreans will have to face 5 or more opponents where he is basically flipping a coin. Even if he is 60% likely to win vs anyone statistically he still has almost no shot.
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Korea has more top level players than every other country combined. There's nothing to discuss here, really. Koreans do own white dudes (and every other sort of non Korean dudes) indeed, in general. The very fact that the so called rivalry is between Koreans and non Koreans tells you everything you need to know about the skill levels in the countries of the world. You can have the "Foreigner X is going to Korea to train and improve" hypes icing on the cake too if you like.
The thing is, I hardly understand why does it even matter. I personally don't care if a player is Korean or Ukrainian or American. Yes I am non Korean but I am non American as well. Why would one matter more to me than another? Why a German rooting for Idra because Idra is non Korean is "normal", while a German rooting for MMA because he's a non American would be immediately labeled with good old "antiamericanism" label?
Interesting games, good skill, good sportsmanship, rich personality is all I care about. Nationality? Hell no. Something as broad and silly as "foreigner"? Lol what...
...and see if you still have the same opinion.
Better wait till MarineKing or other top level Korean goes to Ukraine to "train among Foreigners to improve his skill", then I very well might change my opinion.
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EPT
