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On April 12 2012 01:24 Sejanus wrote:
Korea has more top level players than every other country combined. There's nothing to discuss here, really. Koreans do own white dudes (and every other sort of non Korean dudes) indeed, in general. The very fact that the so called rivalry is between Koreans and non Koreans tells you everything you need to know about the skill levels in the countries of the world.
The thing is, I hardly understand why does it even matter. I personally don't care if a player is Korean or Ukrainian or American. Yes I am non Korean but I am non American as well. Why would one matter more to me than another? Why a German rooting for Idra because Idra is non Korean is "normal", while a German rooting for MMA because he's a non American would be immediately labeled with good old "antiamericanism" label?
Interesting games, good skill, good sportsmanship, rich personality is all I care about. Nationality? Hell no. Something as broad and silly as "foreigner"? Lol what...
The thing is though that many people actually do care. They want foreigners to win, because they are foreigners. That simple.
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Baa?21242 Posts
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Poland3748 Posts
I didn't even know there was wcg 2v2 :-)
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On April 12 2012 00:13 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 00:10 Orome wrote:
Results only tell part of the tale. You can argue that the divide is starting to manifest itself more quickly than in 2001 BW (not surprising considering there was no established pro scene back then, so talented players like Grrrr could be world-class), but please don't compare the Korean dominance in Sc2 with that in BW. They're on completely different levels. In Sc2, it's a surprise if a foreigner wins WCG over the Koreans. In BW it was a surprise if any non-Korean took a single game vs any of the Koreans. I don't think it was that surprising in 2000 and 2001. By 2005 it was definitely true but we are not in 2014, yet.
As I said, if you're just making that argument, that's fine (although again, it's not surprising considering the state of the BW pro scene in 2001). By giving the Savior example of 2007, you seemed to be comparing Sc2 now to the more modern BW times as well.
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Yeah, foreigners are totally gonna turn those tables 360 degrees.
I think foreigners should put in more hours to be quite honest. Insane amounts of practice helps when you're not a natural genius at everything like Flash.
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On April 12 2012 03:21 ymir233 wrote:
Yeah, foreigners are totally gonna turn those tables 360 degrees.
I think foreigners should put in more hours to be quite honest. Insane amounts of practice helps when you're not a natural genius at everything like Flash.
Hmm.. I always felt that Stork is more of the genius type... Flash is a healthy mix between talent and hardwork.
And no, from what i gather, the current gap in skills b/w Foreigners and Korean in SC2 is light-years away as compared to that of Brood War.
A Foreigner taking a series off top Korean SC2 player? Hmm.. unlikely, but possible.
A Foreigner taking a game off Flash? The chances are outlandish. And i'm not even talking about a series.
In WCG, Koreans didn't really play seriously, from what i know. It mostly was a vacation tour for them. I'm not trying to take away anything from people who beat a Korean, but the preparation, the intensity, just definitely not there.
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Im sorry, but your analysis is complete garbage. Here is why:
The BW foreigner results you post were made way before any firm team based pro-gaming structure was set. It was in the beginning, before clear schedules and A/B teams were established. There's a big difference between 7-8 guys living together and practicing (sorta like NA team houses now) and ~20-30 guys competing for an A-team spot, most of whom are already cream of the crop of raw talent.
Your analysis is flawed because it fail to reflect the three main developments in the KR vs. World dichotomy.
Stage one: early in sc2 we saw only sporadic participation of korea based pros. There were some foreign based ones, Select comes to mind.
Stage two: GSL/MLG partnership. Not only did we see more koreans come because of invites, but the ones that came mostly received a new seed because of past performance.
Stage three: Team partnerships. This enabled even more koreans to travel because most korean teams cant afford to send their players abroad. It also has the additive effect of re-invitation that we saw in GSL/MLG.
So i think the 18:13 reversed to 21:18 is actually a good sign. The korean skill level has increased immensely in this past year. Code S is looking so insanely hard. And seeing how its almost exclusively the best koreans that travel abroad, Id say "we" are keeping up pretty well - all things considered.
So what is the reason koreans were the best at BW and are the best now?
Discipline and concentrated skill. It's kind of obvious, so i wont take much time with it. Having skill concentrated like on the KR server exponentially improves everyones skill. If every opponent is amazing, you have to be amazing to even contend for the top. A top player on NA/EU (even more true for SEA) probably have to play several games to find a good opponent. Being matched against players of your caliber (or above) is unequivocally the best way to improve. If you get ahead of the curb on NA/EU, you've got nothing to do. If you do it on KR your probably top 10 in the world.
And when you even add team houses, with people learning from each other _and_ keeping a strict schedule with outrageous amounts of practice it becomes kinda obvious why KR is leaping ahead. That is why every foreign pro stresses the need to go to korea.
All in all, the OP isnt that bad. I really enjoyed the list of medalists of major tournaments.
Next time if you really want to put the work in and come up with a good analysis:
Make a casestudy of every korean pro that was picked up by a foreign team and moved abroad. My prediction is that their results will spike due to better non-practice related circumstances. (more money, more freedom, exciting new place, etc.)
And then slowly wear off over the next three or so months due to lack of good practice. In the end they will end up as skilled, but not premiere progamers. (Like fnatic.Rain for instance) The metagame and skill changes extremely fast for such a young game and if youre not in the center of it (korea) your on the back foot at once.
My two cents
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 12 2012 02:50 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 00:13 nimdil wrote:On April 12 2012 00:10 Orome wrote:
Results only tell part of the tale. You can argue that the divide is starting to manifest itself more quickly than in 2001 BW (not surprising considering there was no established pro scene back then, so talented players like Grrrr could be world-class), but please don't compare the Korean dominance in Sc2 with that in BW. They're on completely different levels. In Sc2, it's a surprise if a foreigner wins WCG over the Koreans. In BW it was a surprise if any non-Korean took a single game vs any of the Koreans. I don't think it was that surprising in 2000 and 2001. By 2005 it was definitely true but we are not in 2014, yet. As I said, if you're just making that argument, that's fine (although again, it's not surprising considering the state of the BW pro scene in 2001). By giving the Savior example of 2007, you seemed to be comparing Sc2 now to the more modern BW times as well.
Maybe it was not clear. The loss of sAviOr to PJ was - for me - the end of era of BW that SC2 is currently in: era when Koreans are dominating-crushing the most premiere Starcraft Leagues (MSL/OSL and GSL) and are winning outside of it but are not untouchable. After that Koreans are untouchable. In the beginning of this period Koreans are winning, then they are winning more and more and finally they are not losing. In SC:BW the "not losing" was after sAviOr < PJ. In SC2 we are at "then they are winnning more".
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 12 2012 03:54 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 03:21 ymir233 wrote:
Yeah, foreigners are totally gonna turn those tables 360 degrees.
I think foreigners should put in more hours to be quite honest. Insane amounts of practice helps when you're not a natural genius at everything like Flash. Hmm.. I always felt that Stork is more of the genius type... Flash is a healthy mix between talent and hardwork. And no, from what i gather, the current gap in skills b/w Foreigners and Korean in SC2 is light-years away as compared to that of Brood War. A Foreigner taking a series off top Korean SC2 player? Hmm.. unlikely, but possible. A Foreigner taking a game off Flash? The chances are outlandish. And i'm not even talking about a series. In WCG, Koreans didn't really play seriously, from what i know. It mostly was a vacation tour for them. I'm not trying to take away anything from people who beat a Korean, but the preparation, the intensity, just definitely not there.
The level of development of SC2 that is equivalent to Flash will be around 2020. Look at the links I provided and players. They were taking games from Koreans. Even in first WCGs it happened (i.e. WCG 2002: Essay was 6-1 in group stage and later lost to Blackman in double-elimination bracket. Elky > Starsin; worth to note that Nazgul was tied for 7/8th place  )
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It's pretty obvious you're just looking at results and not actual gameplay, because that's not a very good analogy at all. From 2004 on, Koreans were completely untouchable (and no, one loss from Mr. match fixer Savior does not prove anything to the contrary) in a way Sc2 Koreans can only dream of.
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On April 12 2012 05:07 nimdil wrote:
The level of development of SC2 that is equivalent to Flash will be around 2020.QUOTE]
I'm not sure how you can equate game to a player; still my guess would be not 2020 but the year Flash switches to sc2. Could be next year.
I'm not sure how you can equate a game to a player; still my guess would be not 2020 but the year Flash switches to sc2. Could be next year.
It's crazy to not account for existing infrastructure and talent since it is directly transferrable from bw to sc2. Sc2 is already at the level bw was in mid 2000s at the least.
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 12 2012 04:58 Aphasie wrote:
Im sorry, but your analysis is complete garbage. Here is why:
The BW foreigner results you post were made way before any firm team based pro-gaming structure was set. It was in the beginning, before clear schedules and A/B teams were established. There's a big difference between 7-8 guys living together and practicing (sorta like NA team houses now) and ~20-30 guys competing for an A-team spot, most of whom are already cream of the crop of raw talent.
Your analysis is flawed because it fail to reflect the three main developments in the KR vs. World dichotomy.
Stage one: early in sc2 we saw only sporadic participation of korea based pros. There were some foreign based ones, Select comes to mind.
Stage two: GSL/MLG partnership. Not only did we see more koreans come because of invites, but the ones that came mostly received a new seed because of past performance.
Stage three: Team partnerships. This enabled even more koreans to travel because most korean teams cant afford to send their players abroad. It also has the additive effect of re-invitation that we saw in GSL/MLG.
So i think the 18:13 reversed to 21:18 is actually a good sign. The korean skill level has increased immensely in this past year. Code S is looking so insanely hard. And seeing how its almost exclusively the best koreans that travel abroad, Id say "we" are keeping up pretty well - all things considered.
So what is the reason koreans were the best at BW and are the best now?
Discipline and concentrated skill. It's kind of obvious, so i wont take much time with it. Having skill concentrated like on the KR server exponentially improves everyones skill. If every opponent is amazing, you have to be amazing to even contend for the top. A top player on NA/EU (even more true for SEA) probably have to play several games to find a good opponent. Being matched against players of your caliber (or above) is unequivocally the best way to improve. If you get ahead of the curb on NA/EU, you've got nothing to do. If you do it on KR your probably top 10 in the world.
And when you even add team houses, with people learning from each other _and_ keeping a strict schedule with outrageous amounts of practice it becomes kinda obvious why KR is leaping ahead. That is why every foreign pro stresses the need to go to korea.
All in all, the OP isnt that bad. I really enjoyed the list of medalists of major tournaments.
Next time if you really want to put the work in and come up with a good analysis:
Make a casestudy of every korean pro that was picked up by a foreign team and moved abroad. My prediction is that their results will spike due to better non-practice related circumstances. (more money, more freedom, exciting new place, etc.)
And then slowly wear off over the next three or so months due to lack of good practice. In the end they will end up as skilled, but not premiere progamers. (Like fnatic.Rain for instance) The metagame and skill changes extremely fast for such a young game and if youre not in the center of it (korea) your on the back foot at once.
My two cents
I appreciate the comment. I partially agree. However I will say this: details. The scene was totall different in early SC:BW and now but the imbalance is similar. The situation were different but it was different there and now for dozens of reasons and detailed enough analysis is next to impossible. But results are comparable and I focused on them.
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 12 2012 05:14 ecstatica wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 05:07 nimdil wrote:
The level of development of SC2 that is equivalent to Flash will be around 2020. I'm not sure how you can equate game to a player; still my guess would be not 2020 but the year Flash switches to sc2. Could be next year. It's crazy to not account for existing infrastructure and talent since it is directly transferrable from bw to sc2. Sc2 is already at the level bw was in mid 2000s at the least.
My point is that Flash is Bonjwa now. After more than 10 years of development of the game. SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison.There are many factors: Koreans have talent transferred from BW and progaming culture. Foreigners have passion and $$. Etc etc etc.
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 11 2012 23:58 jeeeeohn wrote:
Foreigner magic struck once in MLG Orlando, against (arguably) second-tier Korean competition.
Mark my words: we will never, ever claim another first place finish. It's not going to happen, so stop hoping. HuK woke a sleeping dragon and now foreigners will forever be shut out. It really is that simple.
There was IPL3 with Stephano winning against MMA, TheStC etc. Ret and IdrA were tied for 5-8 - decent result as well!
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On April 12 2012 05:28 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 05:14 ecstatica wrote:On April 12 2012 05:07 nimdil wrote:
The level of development of SC2 that is equivalent to Flash will be around 2020. I'm not sure how you can equate game to a player; still my guess would be not 2020 but the year Flash switches to sc2. Could be next year. It's crazy to not account for existing infrastructure and talent since it is directly transferrable from bw to sc2. Sc2 is already at the level bw was in mid 2000s at the least. My point is that Flash is Bonjwa now. After more than 10 years of development of the game. SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison.There are many factors: Koreans have talent transferred from BW and progaming culture. Foreigners have passion and $$. Etc etc etc.
The moment i realised that you are one of those guys that chant this argument
SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison.
all your other arguments start to lose their footings.
In case you missed it (god this stuff gets mentioned so many times in the past it's not funny), Brood War didn't learn Micro until Boxer, Macro till Oov, FFE till Daezang, and a whole bunch of other things.
How long did it take for all that to appear in SC2?
Infancy? Hahaha yea, SC2 guys loved that argument cos we can't jump 10 years into the future to lol at them.
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 12 2012 06:17 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 05:28 nimdil wrote:On April 12 2012 05:14 ecstatica wrote:On April 12 2012 05:07 nimdil wrote:
The level of development of SC2 that is equivalent to Flash will be around 2020. I'm not sure how you can equate game to a player; still my guess would be not 2020 but the year Flash switches to sc2. Could be next year. It's crazy to not account for existing infrastructure and talent since it is directly transferrable from bw to sc2. Sc2 is already at the level bw was in mid 2000s at the least. My point is that Flash is Bonjwa now. After more than 10 years of development of the game. SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison.There are many factors: Koreans have talent transferred from BW and progaming culture. Foreigners have passion and $$. Etc etc etc. The moment i realised that you are one of those guys that chant this argument all your other arguments start to lose their footings. In case you missed it (god this stuff gets mentioned so many times in the past it's not funny), Brood War didn't learn Micro until Boxer, Macro till Oov, FFE till Daezang, and a whole bunch of other things. How long did it take for all that to appear in SC2? Infancy? Hahaha yea, SC2 guys loved that argument cos we can't jump 10 years into the future to lol at them.
Byy my standard - infancy will end some time after Legacy of the Void because you can't really develop gameplay if there are huge game changes just around the corner (new units in, old units out etc). WoL is not in infancy but SC2 as a whole still is.
Funny how in your opinion one argument you don't agree with makes all other aguments fall apart even unrelated one.
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On April 12 2012 06:23 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:17 ffreakk wrote:On April 12 2012 05:28 nimdil wrote:On April 12 2012 05:14 ecstatica wrote:On April 12 2012 05:07 nimdil wrote:
The level of development of SC2 that is equivalent to Flash will be around 2020. I'm not sure how you can equate game to a player; still my guess would be not 2020 but the year Flash switches to sc2. Could be next year. It's crazy to not account for existing infrastructure and talent since it is directly transferrable from bw to sc2. Sc2 is already at the level bw was in mid 2000s at the least. My point is that Flash is Bonjwa now. After more than 10 years of development of the game. SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison.There are many factors: Koreans have talent transferred from BW and progaming culture. Foreigners have passion and $$. Etc etc etc. The moment i realised that you are one of those guys that chant this argument SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison. all your other arguments start to lose their footings. In case you missed it (god this stuff gets mentioned so many times in the past it's not funny), Brood War didn't learn Micro until Boxer, Macro till Oov, FFE till Daezang, and a whole bunch of other things. How long did it take for all that to appear in SC2? Infancy? Hahaha yea, SC2 guys loved that argument cos we can't jump 10 years into the future to lol at them. Byy my standard - infancy will end some time after Legacy of the Void because you can't really develop gameplay if there are huge game changes just around the corner (new units in, old units out etc). WoL is not in infancy but SC2 as a whole still is. Funny how in your opinion one argument you don't agree with makes all other aguments fall apart even unrelated one.
Actually it's rather logical.
A silly/shallow argument reflects poorly on one's maturity and intellect. It's usually unwise to spend time/attention on these kind of people, because it quite simply isn't worth it.
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Poland3748 Posts
On April 12 2012 06:50 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:23 nimdil wrote:On April 12 2012 06:17 ffreakk wrote:On April 12 2012 05:28 nimdil wrote:On April 12 2012 05:14 ecstatica wrote:On April 12 2012 05:07 nimdil wrote:
The level of development of SC2 that is equivalent to Flash will be around 2020. I'm not sure how you can equate game to a player; still my guess would be not 2020 but the year Flash switches to sc2. Could be next year. It's crazy to not account for existing infrastructure and talent since it is directly transferrable from bw to sc2. Sc2 is already at the level bw was in mid 2000s at the least. My point is that Flash is Bonjwa now. After more than 10 years of development of the game. SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison.There are many factors: Koreans have talent transferred from BW and progaming culture. Foreigners have passion and $$. Etc etc etc. The moment i realised that you are one of those guys that chant this argument SC2 is still in its infancy by comparison. all your other arguments start to lose their footings. In case you missed it (god this stuff gets mentioned so many times in the past it's not funny), Brood War didn't learn Micro until Boxer, Macro till Oov, FFE till Daezang, and a whole bunch of other things. How long did it take for all that to appear in SC2? Infancy? Hahaha yea, SC2 guys loved that argument cos we can't jump 10 years into the future to lol at them. Byy my standard - infancy will end some time after Legacy of the Void because you can't really develop gameplay if there are huge game changes just around the corner (new units in, old units out etc). WoL is not in infancy but SC2 as a whole still is. Funny how in your opinion one argument you don't agree with makes all other aguments fall apart even unrelated one. Actually it's rather logical. A silly/shallow argument reflects poorly on one's maturity and intellect. It's usually unwise to spend time/attention on these kind of people, because it quite simply isn't worth it.
By that logic everyone who says something idiotic at least once is a total idiot. That's rubbish, not logic. You deny people right to be wrong.
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Why do we always make threads like this, we don't win every time, we don't lose everytime either, just wait on it and see in 5 years if we lose or win dude.
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We would be crushing face easily if Mondragon decided to play more.
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EPT
