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Could we please stop describing women who are in the spotlight as 'attention-whore' ? To find women saying that is even more depressing, I wonder how you (as in women in our community) expect the community to change if you aren't spear-leading the aforementioned changes.
Here are some free insights :
* Some people are drawn to be public figures, no matter their sex, gender and so on. Those often ends up being placed in social related position like casters, journalists, interviewers. I've rarely heard a man being accused of seeking attention even when an argument could be made he is.
* Some people likes to look good, because they like fashion, being appreciated for their looks or simply for self-esteem and confidence. If you dislike that you are just jealous and envious.
Recently I've seen the pictures of Lani and lilsusie in the swimming pool/bubble bath. The picture was nothing out of the ordinary, just your everysummer pics of women in swimsuit. Both of them are quite attractive to say the least but them posting a picture of relaxing in a hotel is not a sign they want to show their figures and be praised.
PS : Tolerance is not a virtue, it's a perpetual fight against one's own misconceptions.
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On April 09 2012 22:16 Otolia wrote:
Could we please stop describing women who are in the spotlight as 'attention-whore' ? To find women saying that is even more depressing, I wonder how you (as in women in our community) expect the community to change if you aren't spear-leading the aforementioned changes.
Here are some free insights :
* Some people are drawn to be public figures, no matter their sex, gender and so on. Those often ends up being placed in social related position like casters, journalists, interviewers. I've rarely heard a man being accused of seeking attention even when an argument could be made he is.
* Some people likes to look good, because they like fashion, being appreciated for their looks or simply for self-esteem and confidence. If you dislike that you are just jealous and envious.
Recently I've seen the pictures of Lani and lilsusie in the swimming pool/bubble bath. The picture was nothing out of the ordinary, just your everysummer pics of women in swimsuit. Both of them are quite attractive to say the least but them posting a picture of relaxing in a hotel is not a sign they want to show their figures and be praised.
PS : Tolerance is not a virtue, it's a perpetual fight against one's own misconceptions.
Ah sorry I didn't mean women in the spotlight with that.
I meant the typical girl/woman who enters a guild and says every minute that's she's female and craves the attention to bizarre proportions. Actually it's not really that much gender related for me. I know some males as well who fit the description.
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On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do  Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online. If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around. The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist.
I want to 2nd this one as well.
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On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote:
RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him?
If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called?
In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own.
Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun.
I am:
White male.
20 Years old.
Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing)
Overweight (working on it though!)
American.
Lower ("working") class.
Nice to meet you.
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On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online. If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around. The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist. I want to 2nd this one as well.
Well I'm not one of those fucks. Remember KellyMilkies casting GSL issue? Look a this PM of mine to her:
To: kellymilkies [ Profile | Buddy | Report ]
Subject: I like your casting
Date: 2/23/11 23:17
Don't let the insecure mysogynic tools to get to you.
Stay strong and keep on going!
When something similar like that issue happens again, I will post similar PM to person in need 
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On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online. If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around. The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist. I want to 2nd this one as well.
What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority.
This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make...
Quiet sad;;
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On April 09 2012 22:36 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote:
RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called? In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own. Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun. I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class. Nice to meet you.
Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude.
On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online. If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around. The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist. I want to 2nd this one as well. What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority. This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make... Quiet sad;;
I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story
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On April 09 2012 22:44 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 22:36 Chargelot wrote:On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote:
RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called? In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own. Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun. I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class. Nice to meet you. Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silene? Fuck no dude.
That's not at all what I said.
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On April 09 2012 22:44 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 22:36 Chargelot wrote:On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote:
RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called? In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own. Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun. I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class. Nice to meet you. Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude. Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online. If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around. The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist. I want to 2nd this one as well. What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority. This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make... Quiet sad;; I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story
Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM.
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On April 09 2012 22:50 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 22:44 beetlelisk wrote:On April 09 2012 22:36 Chargelot wrote:On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote:
RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called? In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own. Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun. I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class. Nice to meet you. Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude. On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online. If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around. The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist. I want to 2nd this one as well. What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority. This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make... Quiet sad;; I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM.
What can I say, mod actions speak for themselves. those people simply don't belong in the community.
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On April 09 2012 22:50 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 22:44 beetlelisk wrote:On April 09 2012 22:36 Chargelot wrote:On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote:
RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called? In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own. Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun. I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class. Nice to meet you. Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude. On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online. If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around. The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist. I want to 2nd this one as well. What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority. This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make... Quiet sad;; I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM.
A big problem is that "female" is a sex-linked term while "her" is gender linked. It's not quite clear, even to myself, a person who is studying to be a genetic biologist, if I am supposed to refer to a genetic male as a female for the sake of being polite. "female", as far as humans are concerned, denotes a person with XX for their 23rd chromosome pair. While "her" "she" "woman" etc denotes anyone who identifies with the gender typically assigned to females at birth.
Don't get me wrong, I'll call her what she wants to be called out of a decent respect for her, as I have for all peoples. But it's not without its complications.
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On April 09 2012 23:01 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 22:50 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 22:44 beetlelisk wrote:On April 09 2012 22:36 Chargelot wrote:On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote:
RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called? In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own. Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun. I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class. Nice to meet you. Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude. On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online. If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around. The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist. I want to 2nd this one as well. What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority. This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make... Quiet sad;; I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM. A big problem is that "female" is a sex-linked term while "her" is gender linked. It's not quite clear, even to myself, a person who is studying to be a genetic biologist, if I am supposed to refer to a genetic male as a female for the sake of being polite. "female", as far as humans are concerned, denotes a person with XX for their 23rd chromosome pair. While "her" "she" "woman" etc denotes anyone who identifies with the gender typically assigned to females at birth. Don't get me wrong, I'll call her what she wants to be called out of a decent respect for her, as I have for all peoples. But it's not without its complications.
If you are studying to be a genetic biologist you should know that a transgender is actually not physically equal to a man (in case of MtF as we have now), at least according to wiki and other sources it doesn't.
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On April 09 2012 23:03 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 23:01 Chargelot wrote:On April 09 2012 22:50 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 22:44 beetlelisk wrote:On April 09 2012 22:36 Chargelot wrote:On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote:
RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called? In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own. Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun. I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class. Nice to meet you. Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude. On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online. If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around. The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist. I want to 2nd this one as well. What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority. This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make... Quiet sad;; I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM. A big problem is that "female" is a sex-linked term while "her" is gender linked. It's not quite clear, even to myself, a person who is studying to be a genetic biologist, if I am supposed to refer to a genetic male as a female for the sake of being polite. "female", as far as humans are concerned, denotes a person with XX for their 23rd chromosome pair. While "her" "she" "woman" etc denotes anyone who identifies with the gender typically assigned to females at birth. Don't get me wrong, I'll call her what she wants to be called out of a decent respect for her, as I have for all peoples. But it's not without its complications. If you are studying to be a genetic biologist you should know that a transgender is actually not physically equal to a man (in case of MtF as we have now), at least according to wiki and other sources it doesn't.
But they don't suddenly change sexes, genetically speaking. She is stuck with her Y chromosome for life. That Y chromosome denotes a genetic male. While physically and socially, she is a woman. That's what I mean.
And I am certainly not trying to disrespect her when I say that. I'm just trying to assert that Sex and Gender are two different things, which people on both sides of the argument need to understand.
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On April 09 2012 23:05 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 23:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 23:01 Chargelot wrote:On April 09 2012 22:50 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 22:44 beetlelisk wrote:On April 09 2012 22:36 Chargelot wrote:On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote:
RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called? In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own. Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun. I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class. Nice to meet you. Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude. On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online. If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around. The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist. I want to 2nd this one as well. What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority. This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make... Quiet sad;; I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM. A big problem is that "female" is a sex-linked term while "her" is gender linked. It's not quite clear, even to myself, a person who is studying to be a genetic biologist, if I am supposed to refer to a genetic male as a female for the sake of being polite. "female", as far as humans are concerned, denotes a person with XX for their 23rd chromosome pair. While "her" "she" "woman" etc denotes anyone who identifies with the gender typically assigned to females at birth. Don't get me wrong, I'll call her what she wants to be called out of a decent respect for her, as I have for all peoples. But it's not without its complications. If you are studying to be a genetic biologist you should know that a transgender is actually not physically equal to a man (in case of MtF as we have now), at least according to wiki and other sources it doesn't. But they don't suddenly change sexes, genetically speaking. She is stuck with her Y chromosome for life. That Y chromosome denotes a genetic male. While physically and socially, she is female. That's what I mean.
Are the chromosomes everything that is taking into consideration for gender? If their brain structure is actually 90% female, for a biologist its still a completely male person? I don't know, I see what you are talking about... but yeah =.= I think its more of a social thing anyways.
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I think this blog more refers to the large female discrepancy between BW fangirls numbers and SC2's fangirls numbers. The majority of people in the crowds at proleague and OSL you could argue are girls/women. Part of that reason is, however, the cuteness factor of certain players, so that kind of cheapens those leagues. But, it's still more girls that understand the game, so that's good.
In "western" cultures it's still a stigma to watch/play video games (as Red Justice) so I think that's the main reason for the lack of girls. Being cute or not shouldn't stop anyone from playing. That's just an excuse, even though I understand the harassment Red Justice is talking about can hurt.
As far as Anna and other presenters go, don't you think the guys were dressed hot as well (im asking the girls)? I think it's a reverse stereotype "girl supporters" place on girls to say they can't dress well at an event just because our culture associates women presenters with sexuality. It's a vegas show. Everyone should try and look flashy and sexy.
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generally if you're a betting looking woman, you can get jobs easier etc solely because of your looks (compared to other women)
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I tend to think that sexism is kind of a shitty thing in general and try not to participate in it at all, but there is something I have to say that not everybody will be happy with.
Stereotypes exist for a reason. They are ignorant, offensive, and very often false, but they exist and were invented because people see relations in them. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that there is any scientific evidence to suggest black people are genetically predisposed to like fried chicken, but I will say that some (read: not all) girl gamers who've taken the spotlight have acted in a way that create these stereotypes.
It's a male-dominated vocal community (which is to say, more gamer girls exist than forums/etc would suggest.) When companies like Ubisoft hire the Frag Dolls to be their gamer marketing team, they reinforce the stereotype by using sex to get attention. Jessica Chobot gained her initial fame by licking a playstation controller (as opposed to her job, which she legitimately worked hard to gain.) G4 hosts are worshipped for posing in Maxim/Playboy. The PMS Clan, for years, sponsored casual players to travel to tournaments (CPL, old school MLG etc. I'm not talking about Flo) where they often secured last place, and then went on to do interviews about how cool they are for being girl gamers, in a clan that literally has a "no boys allowed" sticker on it. At one point, their brother clan, H2O, were also referred to as "Water boys" and PMS meant "Psychotic Man Slayers," (now "Pandoras Mighty Soldiers") which, needless to say, was equally sexist on their part.
It's unfortunate that sexism exists, but it doesn't only exist because guys are jerks. It also exists because certain individuals in the industry made it so. No, lulsusie wearing a bathing suit in a hot tub isn't the definition of "attention whore," I agree. However, in more extreme examples, there's certainly some connection.
I'm not justifying sexism by saying this, merely stating why it exists. I'm a guy and I think it's pretty disgraceful the way things are. In my years on the internet, I've made plenty of female friends whom don't fit the stereotypes whatsoever. It's unfortunate that they're subject to sexism despite that, and I wish there was something to do about it. However, I think those girls who are in the spotlight need to set a better example just as much as guys have to stop being assholes before anything can change.
People like Anna, Seltzer and Lilsusie are good examples of females in the spotlight who I think are helping combat sexism, by doing what they do without labeling themselves as a gender. Unfortunately, this problem has existed long before they came along, and it's going to be a bit uphill struggle for anything to change.
As for why they dress pretty on stage, while I doubt IPL is picking their dresses, I imagine they did have some kind of dress code. Smix rolled in to MLG with jeans and T-Shirt, after all, unlike IPL. I wouldn't necessarily blame the girls on that, and even if they did choose to dress up, that's their own call.
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On April 09 2012 23:12 slytown wrote:
I think this blog more refers to the large female discrepancy between BW fangirls numbers and SC2's fangirls numbers. The majority of people in the crowds at proleague and OSL you could argue are girls/women. Part of that reason is, however, the cuteness factor of certain players, so that kind of cheapens those leagues. But, it's still more girls that understand the game, so that's good.
In "western" cultures it's still a stigma to watch/play video games (as Red Justice) so I think that's the main reason for the lack of girls. Being cute or not shouldn't stop anyone from playing. That's just an excuse, even though I understand the harassment Red Justice is talking about can hurt.
As far as Anna and other presenters go, don't you think the guys were dressed hot as well (im asking the girls)? I think it's a reverse stereotype "girl supporters" place on girls to say they can't dress well at an event just because our culture associates women presenters with sexuality. It's a vegas show. Everyone should try and look flashy and sexy.
Dressing well and having to deal with people shouting "would bang, what a hot bitch!" is completely different from someone complimenting the looks of a woman. I for my part have stated at another event that Anna was looking gorgeous in her dress etc, but the majority of the people still take screenshots of girls in the audience wearing hot pants writing "I'd hit it" ...
I do like women just as much, but thats no reason to treat them like objects. Wow this sounds so... stupid, but thats just my opinion. -_-.
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Okay this is one of those times where a response overshadows the blog. (sorry Zandar!)
It's an interesting topic, and something that I feel really does need to be addressed in the gaming community. Though I guess I never really thought about how many women might be out there and just not willing to reveal their gender.
On April 09 2012 21:20 RedJustice wrote:
So let's now consider the general rule of treatment-- people who don't stalk and harass you like that. A lot of times these people are pretty friendly, but in the end I often have negative experiences with these guys too. They are really excited to see a girl they find somewhat attractive sharing an important interest with them, and decide they like you. This leads to well-meaning but often unwelcome advances. This doesn't sound so bad, except that one of the main draws of gaming for many people is the friendships and social component. It is often difficult for women to get this experience when people are more interested in gf than friend.
I think there's two issues here. First, it's rare for a nerds like us (the men) to find a partner in this world who share our general interests and hobbies. As it stands general culture is not too accepting of nerd culture, and most women would be turned away if they knew I could speak elvish and Klingon and spent hours watching Sci Fi and anime. It's rather annoying to have to hide who you are when socializing because knowing how to operate a class 9 warp drive with tricyclic input is considered weird. Sometimes it can actually be quite difficult.
It's no different than what anyone else wants in this world, to be accepted for who you are. But I think having such niech interests that are frowned upon by mainstream culture makes this incredibly difficult. So when nerd men meet someone who shares their interests and see the world as they do it's like finding the holy grail. (except without the eternal life thing)
The thing is, creepy behavior is not confined just to the nerd world. I've seen plenty of men irl act creepy and do some really inappropriate things. This comes from the fact that men are idiots, and lonely men are even bigger idiots when it comes to women. For some reason certain men think that if they throw themselves at women it will somehow cause them to fall for them, despite quite the opposite being true. And many women, likely feeling sorry for the guy, avoid giving them a straight "no" answer that would often times avert the situation. Unfortunatly, the internet just makes it all that much worse. It's by no means any excuse for that type of behavior, it's totally inappropriate but it does help explain it.
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote:
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
This type of shit is rediculous. Granted some of it comes from immature 14 and 15 year olds, who have some excuse because everyone is an idiot at that age, but some of it comes from older individuals who have absolutely no excuse. Especially the "get back to the kitchen" stuff, it's not funny and never will be. The women of the internet should all band together and make these clowns feel horrible and inadequate, that would stop the internet sexism I think...
On April 09 2012 21:38 IOvEggY wrote:
Ive actually dated 3 in a row and they looked like Anna in terms of prettyness
Theyre more out there than you think.
Beware:they are usually more crazy than usual. Are you?(working on a theory)
In my experience I have to admit this is true. The two "gamer" girls I've known had some serious issues. Majorly self destructive and constantly doing crap to get attention. Hopefully that's not the case with all nerd girls.
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In nanashin's chat on his stream for Proleague we type "qt" when we see a camera on a cute girl in the crowd or (and I do this a lot) type "kim ga eul so beautiful!" when she's on camera. If this was the only thing I did, I would be cheapening the league I think, but I talk mostly about the games so it's fine.
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EPT
