|
@babytoss
i think the dress/image thing (particularly in formalwear etc) is a societal issue rather than a gaming one. Not to say we shouldn't and can't try to address the issue that women are valued primarily for their appearance, but that is something that is wrong with the world, not specific to the SC2 community.
If we could get TL to the place where Anna's wardrobe is our biggest sexism concern i think we'd have made a HUGE change to this community.
I think it's moving forward (or I hope it is) through all the little problems. Things like the kellymilkies stuff, and now scarlett's arrival on the scene are opening alot of people's eyes to issues like casual sexism. I hope that for every person banned others are understanding how unacceptable behaviour like that is.
|
On April 10 2012 04:51 kerpal wrote:
@babytoss
i think the dress/image thing (particularly in formalwear etc) is a societal issue rather than a gaming one. Not to say we shouldn't and can't try to address the issue that women are valued primarily for their appearance, but that is something that is wrong with the world, not specific to the SC2 community.
If we could get TL to the place where Anna's wardrobe is our biggest sexism concern i think we'd have made a HUGE change to this community.
I think it's moving forward (or I hope it is) through all the little problems. Things like the kellymilkies stuff, and now scarlett's arrival on the scene are opening alot of people's eyes to issues like casual sexism. I hope that for every person banned others are understanding how unacceptable behaviour like that is.
That's what I pointed out in one of my later posts - that this whole 'formal' wardrobe is a society issue. However, we are gamers, and we could make a difference, if we tried enough. If we all dismiss the issue as 'society' issue, then sure, it will go on. However, if we start with ourselves, we may, in the end, make some difference. That's what I am talking about mostly and I wish it'd actually sink in and more people followed the suit, so to speak. We won't make difference in the course of days, weeks, months, perhaps, but there's always that starting point and it will break sooner or later, if enough people realize this.
The 'issue' with Scarlett - I was truly apalled by show of immaturity of so many people. Who are we to judge others... we all are unique human beings and should be better than labelling people based on sex/gender or whatever bullcrap. The society might influenced us, but in the end, we all do posses free will and can make decisions on our own. The thing is - who has the actual balls to step up, no matter what the society thinks, and do what is more fair, even at the cost of being disliked by 'sheeps'? From my experience in life - not many. Something to think about.
|
Well, there's me. I play BroodWar though, cuz I'm old-school like that.
|
Ohman, lots of stuff to respond to here. I suppose I'll start with Jibba: + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2012 00:30 Jibba wrote:
I'd like to think TL has made great strides to reduce the level of sexism within the boards, at least compared to other gaming communities and where we were several years ago, but reading the posts of RedJustice, Haemonculus and others, I guess we still have a long way to go, especially with regards to the subversive stuff.
The idea of the attention whore as a major negative is silly to begin with. It surely exists, for both men and women, but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing. I view it as the entire reason for the Blog section.
With regards to calling people beautiful/cute/etc. I think there's a somewhat fine line between complimenting someone's looks respectfully and creepily, and given the lack of nuance in internet text, it's sometimes impossible to read the difference.
You're spot on that TL has made great improvements. I do consider TL to be a relative haven from sexism when compared to the general gaming community. Compared to reddit for example, TL is great. Compared to being the only girl in a warhammer shop, TL is fantastic. But you're right that we can always strive for better. "It could be worse" is not a valid vindication for anything in my opinion.
Which brings me to Chargelot and his rendition of the classic "Yes, but" argument. + Show Spoiler + If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him?
If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called?
In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own.
Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun.
I am:
White male.
20 Years old.
Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing)
Overweight (working on it though!)
American.
Lower ("working") class.
Nice to meet you.
When the subject of sexism comes up, and men change the subject, it trivializes sexism.
When the topic of sexism comes up, and men change the subject to something that's about them, it conveys the message that whatever men want to talk about is more important than sexism. It conveys the message that you are the ones that really matter, and that any harm done to you (and forgive my relative lack of sympathy for your hardships experienced as a young while male), and that any injustice done to you is more important than sexism. I'm not trying to claim in any way that women are the only discriminated against group on the internet. I'm trying to explain that bringing up other minority groups and implying their resilience to such treatment does nothing productive for the conversation.
I am:
White female.
25 years old.
Pagan/Atheist (it's long and confusing)
Thin but not in shape, (working on it)
American.
Middle Class.
Charmed.
And Nokarot, t.t; + Show Spoiler +On April 09 2012 23:14 Nokarot wrote:
I tend to think that sexism is kind of a shitty thing in general and try not to participate in it at all, but there is something I have to say that not everybody will be happy with.
Stereotypes exist for a reason. They are ignorant, offensive, and very often false, but they exist and were invented because people see relations in them. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that there is any scientific evidence to suggest black people are genetically predisposed to like fried chicken, but I will say that some (read: not all) girl gamers who've taken the spotlight have acted in a way that create these stereotypes.
It's a male-dominated vocal community (which is to say, more gamer girls exist than forums/etc would suggest.) When companies like Ubisoft hire the Frag Dolls to be their gamer marketing team, they reinforce the stereotype by using sex to get attention. Jessica Chobot gained her initial fame by licking a playstation controller (as opposed to her job, which she legitimately worked hard to gain.) G4 hosts are worshipped for posing in Maxim/Playboy. The PMS Clan, for years, sponsored casual players to travel to tournaments (CPL, old school MLG etc. I'm not talking about Flo) where they often secured last place, and then went on to do interviews about how cool they are for being girl gamers, in a clan that literally has a "no boys allowed" sticker on it. At one point, their brother clan, H2O, were also referred to as "Water boys" and PMS meant "Psychotic Man Slayers," (now "Pandoras Mighty Soldiers") which, needless to say, was equally sexist on their part.
It's unfortunate that sexism exists, but it doesn't only exist because guys are jerks. It also exists because certain individuals in the industry made it so. No, lulsusie wearing a bathing suit in a hot tub isn't the definition of "attention whore," I agree. However, in more extreme examples, there's certainly some connection.
I'm not justifying sexism by saying this, merely stating why it exists. I'm a guy and I think it's pretty disgraceful the way things are. In my years on the internet, I've made plenty of female friends whom don't fit the stereotypes whatsoever. It's unfortunate that they're subject to sexism despite that, and I wish there was something to do about it. However, I think those girls who are in the spotlight need to set a better example just as much as guys have to stop being assholes before anything can change.
People like Anna, Seltzer and Lilsusie are good examples of females in the spotlight who I think are helping combat sexism, by doing what they do without labeling themselves as a gender. Unfortunately, this problem has existed long before they came along, and it's going to be a bit uphill struggle for anything to change.
As for why they dress pretty on stage, while I doubt IPL is picking their dresses, I imagine they did have some kind of dress code. Smix rolled in to MLG with jeans and T-Shirt, after all, unlike IPL. I wouldn't necessarily blame the girls on that, and even if they did choose to dress up, that's their own call.
Regardless, this is another faulty argument used often to not necessarily justify, but explain away sexism/racism or any other type of prejudice/discrimination. ("I have nothing wrong with gays, but why do some of them have to be so flamboyant?" as if the actions of those few are reason to be suspect of all gays) Claiming that those in the public eye are to blame by setting a bad example is not helpful. You've created a standard or set of behaviors that you expect "proper" (for lack of a better term) women to adhere to. You bring up examples of some girls not conforming to this standard as a reason that the rest may not be taken seriously.
Nok's post is quite tame compared to NoMicro's though. + Show Spoiler + On April 10 2012 00:53 NoMicro wrote:
I've now 20 year old male, I started playing PC games around the time I was 8. I started getting into clans around 12. Since then, I've been in a countless number of them. Some, with horrible communities of sexist, annoying, pricks. Others, had nice communities of helping hands.
Being a male, I haven't experienced the sexism first hand to the same extent as the women I've played with over the years. (However,some socially awkward girl gamers are just as filthy, dirty, and disgusting as their counterparts.)
Some girls, ENABLE. They're horrible. They giggle when a off-handed comment comes their way. They need to say "No" and be more direct.
These are males that are probably 14-19 years old, full of hormones and socially inexperienced.This is a ticking time bomb and I'm sorry that the females are the trigger that sets them off.
You can set them straight most the time. Be confident, know what you want, and say it. You're looking to game, have fun, and be in a supportive community. Not to be gawked at, teased, flirted with, and abused. If that doesn't happen, leave the community. Find another one.
DON'T innocently flirt. These are deprived males. Any signal, any slight glimpse, flicker, or tell that you may have an "interest" in the guy on more than a platonic level. Don't do it. Make sure the guy is stable enough to understand it's just an innocent joke.
Be a bit more blunt for a while. Take up a Head-Bitch mentality for a while and lighten up over time. Opening to the ones with sense. Keep hold of the people with sense.
Basically, don't join clans or communities with the intention of staying, give it a couple of weeks as a trial and see how evolved the community is.
What the girl looks like, how she dresses, the attention she wants, is all irrelevant. Their is nothing wrong with being an attention-whore if you want to be one. Not my style, i'd probably just ignore you.
These guys. don't have enough experience with the opposite gender to know what they LIKE, and what the DON'T LIKE, so they see BOOBS and get all excited because you having boobs means they must like you. Show off a bit of that horrible, vain, personality, be a head-bitch and make them learn their lesson instead.
The biggest tool you have available is that their is a countless number of gaming communities. You don't like one, hop to another. Let them learn, or not. They'll just be stuck in a sausage fest of a Ventrilo.
Final note: Keep tabs with cool people who you know just want platonic, chill times. Cut ties off with the other ones ASAP before they get any ideas.
Oh, and if you're feeling evil and play item-based games just manipulate the shit out of the guys until they learn that some girls are bitches too. =P
TL;DR: Just like Real-Life you get a few close-knit friends you trust and say FU to everyone else. Don't settle for pervs, let them learn. Get good with the mute button. BE UPFRONT. You're here to play GAMES, not with their tiny dicks.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
And then you could also go on about the enabling girls. They flirt, send pictures, and generally act like the girl who drank 3 too many, took a couple of triple-stacked MDMAs and do anything you tell them to.
Socially awkward nerd girls are part of the problem. If the only girl a guy talks to regularly is some socially inexperienced, needy, low confidence trick , that does these things, it's going to give him unrealistic expectations of all women. You sane women have to deal with breaking down these conceptions the socially awkward side of your gender has also helped forge.
Shifting blame to the victims much? Not only have you created your own ideas of how women "should" act, and reasoned that not following such expectations is the reason why they are marginalized, but you even go on to explain exactly how we should act, as if we're clueless in how we contribute to our own marginalization. I don't think you're even aware of how arrogant and privileged you come off as. I'd love to have this conversation face to face, lol. (Your advice is shit, by the way. Do you know what kind of reaction a girl will get if she announces her presence in a new community by saying "I'm here to game! Don't hit on me!" hint: we'll be reading blog posts about attention whoring GAMER GURLLZZ twice as often)
"These are deprived males." Do men not find this insulting? You suggest that they are completely incapable of controlling their own behavior, emotions, and reactions, (and you even imply that they cannot even understand their own emotions), and thus women should behave a certain way to make it easier on them? Your future posts are somewhat redeeming, but your main point still boils down to "men are this way, so women should act that way to make it easy on them," assuming that men are the constant which cannot or should not be expected to change, and that women need to modify themselves to "fit" into their world.
What did you expect? "Welcome, sonny"? "Make yourself at home"? "Marry my daughter"? You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons.
Teehee, I quoted Mel Brooks and made a racism analogy at the same time.
|
The 'issue' with Scarlett - I was truly apalled by show of immaturity of so many people. Who are we to judge others... we all are unique human beings and should be better than labelling people based on sex/gender or whatever bullcrap. The society might influenced us, but in the end, we all do posses free will and can make decisions on our own. The thing is - who has the actual balls to step up, no matter what the society thinks, and do what is more fair, even at the cost of being disliked by 'sheeps'? From my experience in life - not many. Something to think about.
The rampant e-thuggery at Scarlett's expense was disgusting to me. She comes out, plays a brilliant tournament, and uneducated 12yo's just spewed hate all over their monitors.
To that end, if you're listening Scarlett: Haters gonna hate! Strut around all this week like the queen of the world, you earned it.
@BabyToss - Looking for someone to stand up against norms, this is the place to do it. I'm outspokenly anti-theist, I mock pop culture in front of pretty plastic girls in bars, and I care zero for regular sports. More and more society is becoming much more educated, liberal, and open-minded. Megusta.
It's kind of stupid to label people based on gender, but at the same time, I find a girl willing to publicly admit that she's a gamer incredibly attractive and brave. I think most guys do. Breaking molds is often refreshing and charming. Then again, girls probably aren't super turned on when I tell them I really don't give a shit about major sports. If you say to a girl "yeah, I'm gunna spend the weekend getting drunk and watching football with the guys" most girls think "awwww, he's SUCH a guy!". Whereas, if I were to say "I'm going to play at least 20hours of starcraft while watching it on TV with my friends" many girls think "what a loser".
|
United States22883 Posts
A female sheriff??!
I've heard it time and again from both men and women that "oversexualized" girls make it more difficult on the rest of the female gaming community because they lower male expectations, but the problem with that is 1) it's still viewing the entire scene through the same paradigm of men vs. women, which immediately hamstrings the discussion and prevents much progress and 2) if people's judgements of an entire group are based upon the actions of a few, then that's entirely on the people doing the judgement. Fuck them.
It's the same as that blog last week about how gamers should grow up because of others' negative perceptions of us - that's their fault for being judgmental pricks. People should be who they want to be and whether that's flamboyant, conservative, outgoing, shy, etc. it usually doesn't have much of an impact on their moral character or the type of community member they are. I may make fun of the number of sparkles on Anna's dress and ask if I can buy a vowel, but that dress doesn't affect how I think of her as a community member.
|
On April 09 2012 20:48 Zandar wrote:
Kpop is even worse. Those girls are all selected purely for looks. All the same hight and sizes. It doesn't even matter if they can sing, they can just moderate their voices.
Although I have responded already, I will add something I just realized. Since this is a blog about sexism etc. I don't care what you call it, and you're taking the side with women... don't you find it just a little inappropriate to go ahead and say something like this? I mean there are actually good and awesome singers in KPOP, at least in my opinion.
Consider this performance by IU. And I'm not saying she's a briliant singer or anything, I hardly know anything about the matter, but still.
+ Show Spoiler +
She's a hardworking singer and she had it rough in the beginnings (actually partly because of her looks since she was chubby back then).
And then someone (you) comes along and says all Kpop girls are rubbish singers that only got to where they are thanks to their looks. Doesn't that strike you as ironic? All that is needed here is to have respect for other people and you just proved you can be as ignorant as the people you're "attacking" in OP.
I'm not saying this to make you look like a hypocrite, but because if you filter out trolling, this ignorance is IMO the key thing that's causing all this mess and that's something we should all work on (me included). Don't judge people or their work if you don't know the whole story and even then, don't ever throw everyone in the same bag. I think that's the core of the problem here.
|
On April 10 2012 05:17 Haemonculus wrote:
When the topic of sexism comes up, and men change the subject to something that's about them, it conveys the message that whatever men want to talk about is more important than sexism. It conveys the message that you are the ones that really matter, and that any harm done to you (and forgive my relative lack of sympathy for your hardships experienced as a young while male), and that any injustice done to you is more important than sexism. I'm not trying to claim in any way that women are the only discriminated against group on the internet. I'm trying to explain that bringing up other minority groups and implying their resilience to such treatment does nothing productive for the conversation.
Hey, thanks Haemonculus, I was hoping we'd get to this part of the conversation.
I am:
26 year old white male
Educated and well-spoken with non-regional diction
From an upper-middle class family with two loving parents in one of the most successful areas on the planet
In shape
Atheist
With the exception of my total hate for religion of all kinds, let me admit something that I just came to realize about myself. I have been given every single advantage that anyone can possibly have. Until recently, I had been under the impression that the world is an even playing field, at least in this day and age! There's certainly no workplace discrimination anymore, right!?
Wow, was I wrong. Sexism and racism absolutely do still exist, and it isn't just relegated to the deep south. I made a friend in college that had a significantly better resume than me, and I find better jobs, easier, to this day. Why? Not because he's black, but because of where he grew up he still "talks black", with the half-southern/ half-street sound (by the way, did anyone guess he was black from the first sentence?).
Which brings me to my point, Haemo. I completely agree that changing the subject when a tough issue comes up completely trivializes the issue. My question is, if you know the game is twisted, do you play the game? Knowing that women are more evaluated on looks in a professional environment, do you wear something with just a touch of hotness to interviews? If you had an accent, would you take lessons to fix it? Knowing that women can have equal success compared to men as executives- but only in a few specializations (Marketing, HR, Advertising- the "glass elevator")- do you go into those specializations?
|
On April 10 2012 05:44 Crownlol wrote:
Which brings me to my point, Haemo. I completely agree that changing the subject when a tough issue comes up completely trivializes the issue. My question is, if you know the game is twisted, do you play the game? Knowing that women are more evaluated on looks in a professional environment, do you wear something with just a touch of hotness to interviews? If you had an accent, would you take lessons to fix it? Knowing that women can have equal success compared to men as executives- but only in a few specializations (Marketing, HR, Advertising- the "glass elevator")- do you go into those specializations?
Actually, every interview I've ever been to has been with another woman. But yes, I suppose I do play the game to some extent, (I need a job for money and all that jazz). I wouldn't say I go out of my way to look "hot" for an interview, but I dress as professionally as I can, with clothes that are flattering, and I certainly put a lot more effort into my hair/makeup than I would ever do on a normal day. I may dislike the system, but we're still all bound by it in one form or another.
|
Mmkay, wow. Honestly, I have yet to read every single thing that's been said in this thread so far, just saw it on BabyToss's twitter feed and thought I would throw in my two cents. From what I've glanced at, seems like the age-old stereotyping of the sexes, but I will come back and form a better response later once I've had a chance to read everything.
I am a female gamer. I have been pretty much since I could walk and talk. Unlike most people I didn't start with console gaming but rather with computer games; my dad has been very into programming since I was little so he shared his interests with his kids. I could go into the whole backstory about what games I started out with, what genres I played and what are my faves etc., but that's not the point here. I'm just here to say that I've been a gamer my entire life and I feel no more special about it than anyone else because I happen to be differently-gendered to the majority of gamers.
I'm not any different from any of you. I have poor hygeine and eating habits and sit infront of the computer all day every day with a hunch in my back and my hand forming a raptor claw position over my $10 mouse clicking away at whatever I might be doing in a game or just surfing the web. My hair has split ends and I let my nails get long and I've worn makeup maybe three times in my whole life. I get pimples and occaisionally my nose runs and I cough and sneeze like anyone else. I'm human, I'm not more special or different from any of you because I happened to be born without a Y chromosome. I have a whole family of gamers and had I been born a guy I would've turned out probably exactly the same. For a large part of the people that call themselves nerds I share the same lifestyle simply because I always have. Really, I am absolutely nothing special, and the only way you'd know that I was a girl online was because I just told you so. Ohyeah, and I poop too. 
Since I am not special or different from the nerd population in any way, as just established, I have no desire to be treated like I'm special or different in any way. Anytime I am it's a put off and oftentimes ruins my ability to do what I enjoy, which is gaming and watching gaming streams. I'm not here to be pretty or put on a pedestal or garner support from drooling fanboys. I'm not a model, I'm not interested in that lifestyle in any way. I was never the popular girl in school, I mostly kept to myself and I'm the same as an adult, I'm very introverted. I'm here because, unsurprisingly enough, this is the stuff that interests me. I'm here because I love videogames, I love Starcraft and I love watching Day9 and the pro tournaments. I'm here because this is the natural progression to my interests that I've always had.
I'm here just because I'm me.
|
On April 10 2012 05:36 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 20:48 Zandar wrote:
Kpop is even worse. Those girls are all selected purely for looks. All the same hight and sizes. It doesn't even matter if they can sing, they can just moderate their voices.
Although I have responded already, I will add something I just realized. Since this is a blog about sexism etc. I don't care what you call it, and you're taking the side with women... don't you find it just a little inappropriate to go ahead and say something like this? I mean there are actually good and awesome singers in KPOP, at least in my opinion. Consider this performance by IU. And I'm not saying she's a briliant singer or anything, I hardly know anything about the matter, but still. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6gJqgXsSuM She's a hardworking singer and she had it rough in the beginnings (actually partly because of her looks since she was chubby back then). And then someone (you) comes along and says all Kpop girls are rubbish singers that only got to where they are thanks to their looks. Doesn't that strike you as ironic? All that is needed here is to have respect for other people and you just proved you can be as ignorant as the people you're "attacking" in OP. I'm not saying this to make you look like a hypocrite, but because if you filter out trolling, this ignorance is IMO the key thing that's causing all this mess and that's something we should all work on (me included). Don't judge people or their work if you don't know the whole story and even then, don't ever throw everyone in the same bag. I think that's the core of the problem here.
Stratos has a point. Ignorance is the cause of many things. I can't really add something to his post. It's pretty accurate. I think ignorance coupled with a social image situations is what causes this problem.
If all the girls on the stage of e-sports would be a little chubby and overall a little less pretty. You would have many more people strengthening the stereotype of gaming. "Look! The only girls that play games are chubbier! There are no "NORMAL" girls in gaming". In that sense, it is only good that there are beautiful girls to deny that stereotyping and give e-sports a little better chance to go mainstream. But denying all the other girls, who are definitely out there in far greater numbers than post people realize, is not OK. (and of course sexism is NOT OK at all)
|
I don't write much at forums and such, mostly because I am horribly bad at expressing myself. This thread tho is filled with people who actually discuss the subject and not just throw away some one-liners so I will try to write my view of a part of the matter.
When I was younger and started to play games online I was insecure and depressed and wanted attention. I didn't start play games or games online to get attention but I noticed that I could get it when I got out there. I'm not proud of it, never were but I didn't understand what I was doing to myself and other gamers until years later.
Every day all of us, male and females, are told by commercials and society that we should look good, if we don't then we arnt worth as much as the beautiful people. So of course there will be girls who are "attention-whores". They are insecure and sees an opportunity to get the attention that they can't get irl. Most of these girls are young, just like I was, and they will probably grow out of it.
I have joined a group on facebook that is for women who likes to play games and wants to get to know other female gamers. Groups like this have made me dare to get out of hiding, I don't pretend I'm a guy anymore but instead I am honest with being female and I feel better about myself.
No one should have to hide that they are a women just because of ignorant people who has nothing better to do then to be mean to other people. But sadly it is sometimes hard to not get depressed and feel bashed on even tho you know they are wrong.
Ah well, I hope you guys get my point. Thanks for starting an awesome discussion!
I am:
White female.
29 Years old.
Atheist.
Normal weight.
Swedish
Middle class (I guess?).
|
On April 10 2012 05:17 Haemonculus wrote:. + Show Spoiler + On April 10 2012 00:53 NoMicro wrote:
I've now 20 year old male, I started playing PC games around the time I was 8. I started getting into clans around 12. Since then, I've been in a countless number of them. Some, with horrible communities of sexist, annoying, pricks. Others, had nice communities of helping hands.
Being a male, I haven't experienced the sexism first hand to the same extent as the women I've played with over the years. (However,some socially awkward girl gamers are just as filthy, dirty, and disgusting as their counterparts.)
Some girls, ENABLE. They're horrible. They giggle when a off-handed comment comes their way. They need to say "No" and be more direct.
These are males that are probably 14-19 years old, full of hormones and socially inexperienced.This is a ticking time bomb and I'm sorry that the females are the trigger that sets them off.
You can set them straight most the time. Be confident, know what you want, and say it. You're looking to game, have fun, and be in a supportive community. Not to be gawked at, teased, flirted with, and abused. If that doesn't happen, leave the community. Find another one.
DON'T innocently flirt. These are deprived males. Any signal, any slight glimpse, flicker, or tell that you may have an "interest" in the guy on more than a platonic level. Don't do it. Make sure the guy is stable enough to understand it's just an innocent joke.
Be a bit more blunt for a while. Take up a Head-Bitch mentality for a while and lighten up over time. Opening to the ones with sense. Keep hold of the people with sense.
Basically, don't join clans or communities with the intention of staying, give it a couple of weeks as a trial and see how evolved the community is.
What the girl looks like, how she dresses, the attention she wants, is all irrelevant. Their is nothing wrong with being an attention-whore if you want to be one. Not my style, i'd probably just ignore you.
These guys. don't have enough experience with the opposite gender to know what they LIKE, and what the DON'T LIKE, so they see BOOBS and get all excited because you having boobs means they must like you. Show off a bit of that horrible, vain, personality, be a head-bitch and make them learn their lesson instead.
The biggest tool you have available is that their is a countless number of gaming communities. You don't like one, hop to another. Let them learn, or not. They'll just be stuck in a sausage fest of a Ventrilo.
Final note: Keep tabs with cool people who you know just want platonic, chill times. Cut ties off with the other ones ASAP before they get any ideas.
Oh, and if you're feeling evil and play item-based games just manipulate the shit out of the guys until they learn that some girls are bitches too. =P
TL;DR: Just like Real-Life you get a few close-knit friends you trust and say FU to everyone else. Don't settle for pervs, let them learn. Get good with the mute button. BE UPFRONT. You're here to play GAMES, not with their tiny dicks.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
And then you could also go on about the enabling girls. They flirt, send pictures, and generally act like the girl who drank 3 too many, took a couple of triple-stacked MDMAs and do anything you tell them to.
Socially awkward nerd girls are part of the problem. If the only girl a guy talks to regularly is some socially inexperienced, needy, low confidence trick , that does these things, it's going to give him unrealistic expectations of all women. You sane women have to deal with breaking down these conceptions the socially awkward side of your gender has also helped forge.
Shifting blame to the victims much? Not only have you created your own ideas of how women "should" act, and reasoned that not following such expectations is the reason why they are marginalized, but you even go on to explain exactly how we should act, as if we're clueless in how we contribute to our own marginalization. I don't think you're even aware of how arrogant and privileged you come off as. I'd love to have this conversation face to face, lol. (Your advice is shit, by the way. Do you know what kind of reaction a girl will get if she announces her presence in a new community by saying "I'm here to game! Don't hit on me!" hint: we'll be reading blog posts about attention whoring GAMER GURLLZZ twice as often) "These are deprived males." Do men not find this insulting? You suggest that they are completely incapable of controlling their own behavior, emotions, and reactions, (and you even imply that they cannot even understand their own emotions), and thus women should behave a certain way to make it easier on them? Your future posts are somewhat redeeming, but your main point still boils down to "men are this way, so women should act that way to make it easy on them," assuming that men are the constant which cannot or should not be expected to change, and that women need to modify themselves to "fit" into their world.
For one, I'd love to have this conversation face-to-face as well. I'd learn something. That's why I put my opinions up here. They get broken down and I come out with stronger, more solid opinions. Your responses only help. Laughing at my thoughts is kind of an asshole thing to do though.
That said, my post is about treating people with the same amount of respect no matter the gender.
Some girls love making off handed sexual comments, and some males get creeped out at the mention of a penis. I wasn't trying to say girls have to "play by guy rules". I was trying to say, -everyone- both genders need to realize that some people have differing personalities and that you should respect that difference. If you're asked to stop talking to someone, you do that. You don't continue making lewd comments.
An asshole will be an asshole no matter the gender they're talking to.
I did kind of suggest the men were incapable of thought, that's my fault. I'll make it clear that men should not be excused from comments. They should have to deal with what they say.
Girls can fit right into our community very nicely as they are. Don't change yourself, be snarky, be optimistic, prissy, preppy, pessimistic whatever you are. Bring your personal light to the table for the community to see. T
Oh, and it's not like you'd go into the chat and be all "Stop HITTING on ME!" you just politely turn them down, like I've had done to me several times at the bar. He doesn't get the hint? Mute. I'm not sure what else you can do after this if he keeps persisting. After that, it's not your fault and it's a lack of understanding, and respect on his part.
I think I've made light of the circumstances that women encounter, I know it can be extremely difficult. Especially when 8 of 10 members of a guild you're in is great. You shouldn't have to set up and sail ship because of one, or two disrespectful individuals. They should learn proper conduct.
Sexism, intolerance, lack of respect. Those are all problems we face as a society at large, and not just in gaming. I hope we can get a positive trend going on in the gaming community that can extend even further outward.
And I learned I need to practice on getting my point across in a more direct manner, yay!
|
have you seen most of the guys in gaming circles? i can't blame them for not wanting to come anywhere near a lan!
|
When I played World of Warcraft there were about 10 women in a server of 200-500 (I would say about 200 spoke spanish exclusively so we can ignore them.) There were only 3 that were really hot, the rest were average and everyone got equal respect. The people who were douches based on sex alone were basically outlawed from the guild system, consisting of 4 guilds basically. edit, english speaking. There were plenty 'taco guilds'
As far as I know there was no hard feelings between men and women on that server unless you brought up nasty memories for the girls. There were 2 rape victims, and 1 evisceration victim on that server I think.
I don't really feel like I'm contributing to the discussion, but hey this is my experience. I don't think I've played with a single woman in starcraft.
|
NoMicro wrote:
Sexism, intolerance, lack of respect. Those are all problems we face as a society at large, and not just in gaming. I hope we can get a positive trend going on in the gaming community that can extend even further outward.
NoMicro wrote:
Socially awkward nerd girls are part of the problem. If the only girl a guy talks to regularly is some socially inexperienced, needy, low confidence trick , that does these things, it's going to give him unrealistic expectations of all women. You sane women have to deal with breaking down these conceptions the socially awkward side of your gender has also helped forge.
If you want to stop prejudice, you need to change the way people think. You cannot simply make every single person on the planet the same so that everyone's expectations always meet reality.
If we can learn to judge every single person as an individual and never assume anything just because we've seen at someone else with the same gender/race/face/voice/hairstyle/boobs/car, then there is no "problem" with people being different in a community.
The only problem with this approach is that if you truly go by it, you will most likely find yourself unable to really hate on anyone, which is something we as humans apparently deeply desire to do.
|
On April 10 2012 06:50 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +NoMicro wrote:
Sexism, intolerance, lack of respect. Those are all problems we face as a society at large, and not just in gaming. I hope we can get a positive trend going on in the gaming community that can extend even further outward.
Show nested quote +NoMicro wrote:
Socially awkward nerd girls are part of the problem. If the only girl a guy talks to regularly is some socially inexperienced, needy, low confidence trick , that does these things, it's going to give him unrealistic expectations of all women. You sane women have to deal with breaking down these conceptions the socially awkward side of your gender has also helped forge.
If you want to stop prejudice, you need to change the way people think. You cannot simply make every single person on the planet the same so that everyone's expectations always meet reality. If we can learn to judge every single person as an individual and never assume anything just because we've seen at someone else with the same gender/race/face/voice/hairstyle/boobs/car, then there is no "problem" with people being different in a community. The only problem with this approach is that if you truly go by it, you will most likely find yourself unable to really hate on anyone, which is something we as humans apparently deeply desire to do.
I'm getting a bit self-conscious with how much my post is being picked apart, but I think it's really helping to bring out some of the subtleties in this problem.
I've long since realized everyone is different. From having 2 Otaku sisters, and a younger brother that cosplays once a year while I'm more a sports minded individual. The only difference I can see of women is that I'm innately attracted to them to an extent. (Putting aside physical differences)
That said, some people I don't get along with. I don't like how they act, their morals, or just don't find them all too interesting.
It's fine to not like somebody because you don't like them. Don't have to talk to them. It's not fine to treat them differently because of their gender.
Oh, and don't be a dick.
|
I don't get why the sc2 community has to nitpick everything and put everything under the microscope? Jesus. Let it be. BREATHE.
|
Not sure why girls on the internet wouldn't want guys to hit on them? It's not really any different than in real life. If you're an average looking girl guys are going to treat you differently in a flirtatious manner.
|
most of them are playing wow
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
