EPThttp://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/09/ashley-judd-slaps-media-in-the-face-for-speculation-over-her-puffy-appearance.html
Where are the nerd girls - Page 6
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/09/ashley-judd-slaps-media-in-the-face-for-speculation-over-her-puffy-appearance.html | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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0x64
Finland4593 Posts
Same effect happens anywhere when you put immature, sexually frustrated men with a very low women proportions. Thing will only change when the repartition will be closer to 50% or the age average get higher as well as internet anonymous isnt here to cover your face and behaviour. | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
On April 10 2012 06:19 Peachpuff wrote: I don't write much at forums and such, mostly because I am horribly bad at expressing myself. This thread tho is filled with people who actually discuss the subject and not just throw away some one-liners so I will try to write my view of a part of the matter. When I was younger and started to play games online I was insecure and depressed and wanted attention. I didn't start play games or games online to get attention but I noticed that I could get it when I got out there. I'm not proud of it, never were but I didn't understand what I was doing to myself and other gamers until years later. Every day all of us, male and females, are told by commercials and society that we should look good, if we don't then we arnt worth as much as the beautiful people. So of course there will be girls who are "attention-whores". They are insecure and sees an opportunity to get the attention that they can't get irl. Most of these girls are young, just like I was, and they will probably grow out of it. I have joined a group on facebook that is for women who likes to play games and wants to get to know other female gamers. Groups like this have made me dare to get out of hiding, I don't pretend I'm a guy anymore but instead I am honest with being female and I feel better about myself. No one should have to hide that they are a women just because of ignorant people who has nothing better to do then to be mean to other people. But sadly it is sometimes hard to not get depressed and feel bashed on even tho you know they are wrong. Ah well, I hope you guys get my point. Thanks for starting an awesome discussion! I am: White female. 29 Years old. Atheist. Normal weight. Swedish Middle class (I guess?). welcome! (although obv you've been here almost a year) If you have the desire to contribute in any way then you are helping build TL, I hope you continue to contribute to any discussion you're interested in. It occurs to me that part of guys trouble with girls online is that we don't see enough contribution from girls like yourselves to the general discussion. Not to blame obviously, it is a well known fact that groups of guys will be less crude and juvenile when there are girls around. Perhaps on a forum where there was known to be a higher proportion of vocally female posters guys would clean up their act? I dare to hope for the sake of my gender! Of course there will be immaturity, but PM Haemonculus and the hammer-cav will be there in no time i'm sure and TL will be a better place for that. (meant as encouragement to continue coming "out of hiding" not sure how well it worked) I am: White male 22 Christian Sporty English Middle class | ||
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Renent
Canada302 Posts
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LaSt)ChAnCe
United States2179 Posts
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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Peachpuff
Sweden26 Posts
On April 10 2012 07:29 Xyik wrote: Not sure why girls on the internet wouldn't want guys to hit on them? It's not really any different than in real life. If you're an average looking girl guys are going to treat you differently in a flirtatious manner. But I have no interest in anyone hitting on me, irl or online. | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
really debated over calling myself sporty though...... it's true, but sounds too much like a brag  | ||
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Peachpuff
Sweden26 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:46 Haemonculus wrote: Haha yeah I did the mini-bio thing sarcastically in reply to chargelot and it turned into quite the trend. My bad. I like it tho. Makes it feel more personal in a sort of way! | ||
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LaSt)ChAnCe
United States2179 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:53 Peachpuff wrote: But I have no interest in anyone hitting on me, irl or online. tell people you're a dude... that eliminates like 80% of it also 24/M/USA(Columbus!) sup ladies and laddies | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
On April 10 2012 09:17 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote: tell people you're a dude... that eliminates like 80% of it also 24/M/USA(Columbus!) sup ladies and laddies and we've come full circle back to 'girls should just fit in' | ||
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RedJustice
United States1004 Posts
On April 10 2012 07:29 Xyik wrote: Not sure why girls on the internet wouldn't want guys to hit on them? It's not really any different than in real life. If you're an average looking girl guys are going to treat you differently in a flirtatious manner. Because how's this irl scenario: You (I am assuming you're a male, but you can just flip it if not, it applies to anyone) are somewhere with very few males for whatever reason, and want to make friends. You start approaching the women around you, and are met with a lot of 'interest'. This is very flattering at the start, but you don't actually want to date any of them (or maybe there is one you are interested in, but not ALL of them). You hope that they will be friends with you anyway, but when they are rejected, the great majority of them get angry and don't want to talk to you anymore, or ignore your rejection and continue to hit on you to the point of harassment. That gets pretty lonely after a while, js. :/ | ||
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Nokarot
United States1410 Posts
On April 10 2012 05:17 Haemonculus wrote:And Nokarot, t.t; + Show Spoiler + On April 09 2012 23:14 Nokarot wrote: I tend to think that sexism is kind of a shitty thing in general and try not to participate in it at all, but there is something I have to say that not everybody will be happy with. Stereotypes exist for a reason. They are ignorant, offensive, and very often false, but they exist and were invented because people see relations in them. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that there is any scientific evidence to suggest black people are genetically predisposed to like fried chicken, but I will say that some (read: not all) girl gamers who've taken the spotlight have acted in a way that create these stereotypes. It's a male-dominated vocal community (which is to say, more gamer girls exist than forums/etc would suggest.) When companies like Ubisoft hire the Frag Dolls to be their gamer marketing team, they reinforce the stereotype by using sex to get attention. Jessica Chobot gained her initial fame by licking a playstation controller (as opposed to her job, which she legitimately worked hard to gain.) G4 hosts are worshipped for posing in Maxim/Playboy. The PMS Clan, for years, sponsored casual players to travel to tournaments (CPL, old school MLG etc. I'm not talking about Flo) where they often secured last place, and then went on to do interviews about how cool they are for being girl gamers, in a clan that literally has a "no boys allowed" sticker on it. At one point, their brother clan, H2O, were also referred to as "Water boys" and PMS meant "Psychotic Man Slayers," (now "Pandoras Mighty Soldiers") which, needless to say, was equally sexist on their part. It's unfortunate that sexism exists, but it doesn't only exist because guys are jerks. It also exists because certain individuals in the industry made it so. No, lulsusie wearing a bathing suit in a hot tub isn't the definition of "attention whore," I agree. However, in more extreme examples, there's certainly some connection. I'm not justifying sexism by saying this, merely stating why it exists. I'm a guy and I think it's pretty disgraceful the way things are. In my years on the internet, I've made plenty of female friends whom don't fit the stereotypes whatsoever. It's unfortunate that they're subject to sexism despite that, and I wish there was something to do about it. However, I think those girls who are in the spotlight need to set a better example just as much as guys have to stop being assholes before anything can change. People like Anna, Seltzer and Lilsusie are good examples of females in the spotlight who I think are helping combat sexism, by doing what they do without labeling themselves as a gender. Unfortunately, this problem has existed long before they came along, and it's going to be a bit uphill struggle for anything to change. As for why they dress pretty on stage, while I doubt IPL is picking their dresses, I imagine they did have some kind of dress code. Smix rolled in to MLG with jeans and T-Shirt, after all, unlike IPL. I wouldn't necessarily blame the girls on that, and even if they did choose to dress up, that's their own call. Regardless, this is another faulty argument used often to not necessarily justify, but explain away sexism/racism or any other type of prejudice/discrimination. ("I have nothing wrong with gays, but why do some of them have to be so flamboyant?" as if the actions of those few are reason to be suspect of all gays) Claiming that those in the public eye are to blame by setting a bad example is not helpful. You've created a standard or set of behaviors that you expect "proper" (for lack of a better term) women to adhere to. You bring up examples of some girls not conforming to this standard as a reason that the rest may not be taken seriously. q_q the only one who responded to my wall of text. At least someone read it. I'm not saying that those in the spotlight "cause" the sexism in gaming, I'm saying that some of them reinforce it. They aren't to blame, but they play their part. I cherry picked my examples for a reason. It's obvious that only a minority of those in the spotlight have a negative impact on the whole, but when they represent a nonvocal majority of women, it's easy to see how prejudice continues to exist. Does that justify it? No way, guys can be sex-hungry, stereotypical jerks, but so long as something like Fragdolls exists, it's pretty safe to say they're doing more harm than good when it comes to sexism. Are they to blame? No. If I'd blame anything, its a combination of internet anonymity, mob mentality and bandwagoning of those men who are too uneducated or hateful to see what they're doing, not to mention all the sexism that still exists outside of gaming. However, when the mob begs for sexualizing women gamers and certain organizations respond by performing that service for the sake of sales, publicity, etc, it reinforces it nonetheless. That said, I'm well aware that Ubisoft is a male-dominated company who are paying the Frag Dolls' bills. As much as I believe women have to take a stand to get rid of sexism, so do men. "Sex sells" and businesses are sure to take advantage of that when all they're doing is contributing to the problem. Unfortunately, so long as money is involved, I don't foresee that changing. It's shitty, but I think the only real hope for getting rid of sexism is for more women to set a better example, because men aren't going to grow up any time soon. I wish they would, though. | ||
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
On April 10 2012 05:00 BabyToss! wrote: The 'issue' with Scarlett - I was truly apalled by show of immaturity of so many people. Who are we to judge others... Who are we to judge others indeed. I actually saw your twitter during the first day of IPL 4 and it looked like you were doing plenty of judging of the female hosts to me and not a lot of what you said was nice. There's no denying that a lot of dudes on the net are creepy and sexist to female gamers. I don't know how you change that because it's a maturity issue and a lot of gamers aren't mature. At least when it comes to online interaction as people act differently online, than in person due to the anonymity. Guys can be bad online, but I also think female gamers can be just as bad or worse than males, but in their cases it doesn't result in sexism to other female gamers, but instead just straight up hate, calling female hosts attention whores and stuff. There's no doubt in addition to anna's looks being associated with eg helps with opportunities, but that's life in general and not just a gaming issue. It's sometimes who you know and not what you know that gets you jobs. Megumixbear has streamed for over a year and actually plays the game a lot and she still got hate, so it's a no win situation. You can be like anna and not play much and people hate and say she doesn't play the game or you can be like megumi and play the game a lot and still get hate. Megumi has streamed for 26 hours or so straight before and not one of those gimmick 24 charity streams, but just streamed that long because she felt like it. She's put a lot of her own money into running her bear cups and sending out bearpacks around the world, which isn't cheap considering international shipping rates. She's put in a lot of time and effort into the game and has worked for the opportunities shes gets herself because she has no company behind her like Anna does. Does being good looking help? Of course it does, but it also shouldn't overshadow all she's done and she definitely shouldn't be called an attention whore because she is far from that. I thought she did a fine job at IPL 4 and she was the first female interviewer that I can recall that actually asked gameplay related questions instead of just the usual how do you feel about winning or how far do you think you'll go in the tournament. She got some good answers out of mkp and others relating to the games they just played and their decision making. It was nice to see some people acknowledge that and give her credit, but was also disheartening to see some people ignore that or try to discredit her by saying she was getting fed questions to her through her ear piece. While it's easier for good looking women to get opportunities in the scene, it's also harder to earn peoples respect because they are women. People are always questioning why the women are there and constantly trying to scrutinize them in order to find flaws. People like anna, rachel and megumi are involved in the scene at least and aren't just some random booth babes hired to do hosting. Don't blame them for wearing dresses when that's the dress code given to them by IPL. I don't really have a problem with women hosting events and hope to see more in the future. I've often heard people say 2GD is one of the best hosts. I'm not going to dispute that because he does know how to work a crowd. However, I've also noticed a lot of his humour stems from making sexual overtones or jokes with his female co-hosts like I saw during one tourney. Now, I ask myself, why do people pretend to be against sexism, while at the same time applaud 2GD for making sexual jokes all the time while hosting? It gets laughs out of people, but aren't the most mature jokes around, but the gaming community likes those kinds of jokes I guess. | ||
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BabyToss!
Czech Republic588 Posts
It's a fact, that some women do use their looks to gain attention and whatever opportunities and it's also a fact, that this is exactly, what causes people to have no respect for 'female' gamers. (Putting into markers, as for me, there's no such thing as 'male' or 'female' gamer, we all are just gamers, period.) And yes, the flaws are on both female and male side; there's no point in singling out one or the another. But, again, excusing some 'trends' as flaws of society is weak, lame and we should be better than that. All I really have to say about it, as I'd be repeating myself in what I've already said in this thread. | ||
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khaydarin9
Australia423 Posts
On the plus side - I'm pleasantly surprised at the number of women posters here with gender neutral handles. In an environment where first judgements are often made on your username (in the same way that first judgements in face-to-face interactions are made based on a cursory assessment of your physical appearance, including your gender), indicating your gender in your handle can make a huge difference to how you are received. There also seems to be this weird tendency to call girls by their first names once you know them - so, Anna, Susie, Rachel, as opposed to Sean, Nick and Dan. | ||
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Alaz
108 Posts
I think society is changing big time and gaming is becoming more and more acceptable compared to what it used to be. Jocks during my time wouldn't be caught dead playing ANY type of video game but nowadays no one has problem saying they play games like Call of Duty, Madden, or Halo. It's when you mention games like WoW or Starcraft, that you're back into that nerdy category. Now onto females.. If a female is naturally beautiful, she will have so many friends and opportunities that prevent her from even getting into video games. Then when they are so popular, they will also start looking down on people who play video games. That's why the majority of females(and males) that are gamers, are average to ugly looking, or socially inept. So when people like Anna, Rachel, Smix(omgloveher), are starting to take over main stage with interviews and stuff. They are getting tons of hate because now these hot girls are invading OUR culture. Hopefully the majority of the community learns to respect them for their passion of e-sports but when IPL throws them up on stage wearing short dresses to try and sell us sex, it's gonna always be a fighting situtation. I think in the end, it's life. Attractive PEOPLE always have the edge over average looking people. Professional starcraft is a business. For interview type jobs, they just need an attractive female who is known by the community and has basic knowledge of gaming. Sometimes no knowledge as Lindsay Sporer demonstrated and actually was pretty well recieved. But for a professional gamer type side, if a girl steps up with her skills, it doesn't matter what she looks like. I don't think Scarlet is the true savior for this(since her controversy) but hopefully a girl will come around and win a major title. tldr; i have no idea what i wrote but in about 10 years, I think gaming will be widely more acceptable in society and a lot more female gamers. | ||
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
On April 10 2012 10:55 BabyToss! wrote: @Canucklehead - Like I said, I am simply frustrated with the stereotype around women I get to see. Trying to excuse it with the fact, that it's how it goes in life (regarding on who you know and how you look like) is weak and I would've think that we are better than that. What I said on twitter was my pure frustration; and also note, that my twitter is a way to vent without need to suger coat things and I write there even when upset; I won't be nice about things, if I don't like them. Again, I'll say what I think, because I am not out there to appease crowds, I am out there to do what I enjoy and share it with those who enjoy it as well. Even if it means saying nasty things born out of pure frustration; sometimes being nice about things just doesn't get the message across. It's a fact, that some women do use their looks to gain attention and whatever opportunities and it's also a fact, that this is exactly, what causes people to have no respect for 'female' gamers. (Putting into markers, as for me, there's no such thing as 'male' or 'female' gamer, we all are just gamers, period.) And yes, the flaws are on both female and male side; there's no point in singling out one or the another. But, again, excusing some 'trends' as flaws of society is weak, lame and we should be better than that. All I really have to say about it, as I'd be repeating myself in what I've already said in this thread. Well, I'm not going to say going with social trends is necessarily right because the status quo will never change without people willing to change it. However, I was more being realistic about the situation. Expecting the gaming scene to change these things is idealistic and unrealistic. In a utopia world, sure your way of thinking is correct, but it's not something I see happening any time soon. Sure you can call it weak and lame, but I just call it being realistic. Also, there's no denying some women use their looks solely to get ahead, but I think you like to paint all women with the same brush just because they wear a dress on stage and you can't look past the dress to see the women wearing it. From your posts, you do admittedly have an anti dress bias, which in turn results in a negative opinion of women who wear dresses. | ||
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