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Okay... getting away from the bizarre ideas of Klockan...
The thing is, everyone who goes 'against the flow' or 'standards' gets haters, no matter if you are nice about stuff or not. That is an undeniable truth, just look through the history, for some extreme examples, where people were burnt at stake, executed, etc. Today's society is sadly not much different, except you just can't burn someone because they have different opinion. People are too content with stereotypes and concerned with appeasing the society and its 'norms'. People are often concerned for their own popularity, rather than actually trying to make a difference.
This is where I disagree. I think you'll find that this simply isn't true, especially on the internets, especially on teamliquid.
Real life isn't high school. People are interested in actual people with actual interests and actual quirks and actual styles. Most people when they aren't interested, just leave.
I honestly think you could go on stream and dress like a emo or goth or whatever and not get too many haters, as long as you're not negative on stream. This whole idea "I must fit into society's norms!" is downright silly. Being kind and polite is society's norms. You probably are already fitting into society's norms.
I mean seriously, look at Sheth's stream. You can make the argument "oh he's a guy he doesn't have to care about his looks," but we all know that's bullshit. The man is pretty big. You know how many fat jokes go on in his chat? Almost zero. Why? Because he's kind and nice and helpful and funny.
Relax. Have fun.
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On April 10 2012 20:36 BabyToss! wrote:
@Klockan3 For guys to be able to be friends with women, it's quite simple, really. Accept them as part of the community, as equals and then, you'll see them as fellow gamers, rather than something to hit on. You are justt rying to excuse this whole 'romantic clichee' with some sort of reasoning, when there's really none. Nobody is making you to act in this way and please don't tell me it's psychological; it's all up to what the society brainwashed into us, because it's something 'common' and 'norm' and it's up to us to either accept it (bad) or make up our own mind. (good).
So dogs humping each other is just something society got them into? You can't argue that it isn't natural to try to pursue romantic interests. Sending a message is about the most harmless thing you can do in that regard, how would you get guys to stop doing that without totally castrating them?
On April 10 2012 20:36 BabyToss! wrote:
I've had mostly male friends through my life and it worked for me even better than friendships with women. Just saying.
I never said it wasn't possible, I said that it was more problematic than same sex friendship. People are all different and to some these issues might be smaller than the issues they have with their own sex but those are exceptions.
On April 10 2012 20:45 Stratos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 19:37 Klockan3 wrote:On April 10 2012 19:07 Stratos wrote:On April 10 2012 18:10 Klockan3 wrote:
What you are basically asking is for these guys to not only get shut out from social interactions in the real world but they should also be robbed of their online respite just because you want to be a part of it. Of course you could say that as it is it isn't fair to the girls, but remember that these communities weren't built by or for girls. If you want to have the same thing then you got to build your own community instead of trying to change already existing ones. I'm having some great trouble responding to this calmly to be honest, but I'll do my best. If you want to start a new gaming "community" for guys only then by all means go ahead. Apart from what you've said, which I dare to disagree with, what gives you the right to speak for the community in the first place? I don't remember giving you my vote. I am obviously not speaking on behalf of you or anyone else, but I didn't say that I did either. I didn't say that girls aren't welcome, I said that if girls want to get into these communities they can't expect to get treated like guys. If they have a problem with that they should create their own communities or suck it up. Guys hit on girls, nothing anyone do or say will ever change that. Of course you were talking on our behalf when you said "If you want x.. don't ask our community, but start your own".
Read my post again, I didn't say that.
On April 10 2012 20:45 Stratos wrote:And you're doing it again just a few comments above. + Show Spoiler +"The point is that you haven't at all tried to tell me how you would get guys to stop hitting on girls. I argue that it is impossible. The drive to court and mate with the other sex is one of the strongest drives we have. It wont go away just because you want it to" Seriously, stop it. It's not cool by any means. Speak for yourself and stop using others (or at least me) to support your own personal opinions.
How is that talking for the community? There I talked about every living species in existence.
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On April 10 2012 20:47 khaydarin9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 20:30 Klockan3 wrote:On April 10 2012 20:04 BabyToss! wrote:On April 10 2012 19:58 Klockan3 wrote:
Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you. Well, I'd be only repeating myself anyways, as I've already shared my bit in this topic; I am not here to convert the likes like you, I'm here to perhaps show there's something more than just accepting the 'standards' as they are, because that's how it was for who knows how long, to others, who are perhaps more receptive and willing to make a difference. You know, with this logic, it used to be common to burn women on stake as witches, because it fit agenda of certain groups! It even used to be common for women to be a property of men. So, why don't we continue with that, right? This is very exagerrated example, yes, but I think, as an image, how absurd thinking 'let's not even try to change things, after all, it's norm' it should be enough.  I know that the argument "It has always been like this" is a bad argument, but as you would have noticed if you actually read what I said I am not using that argument. And then the argument "You can't say that just because it has never been done before it isn't possible" is even more ridiculous in most of the cases. Like I could argue that we should get every elementary school kids to jump 2 meters high in gym class and meet every counterargument with "You can't say that just because it has never been done before it isn't possible". Can you agree that males to develop romantic feelings for females? Can you agree that it is possible for this to happen online? Now, how would you stop guys from developing feelings from girls? When you answered that question please accept a professorship in psychology and the nobel peace prize. I can very easily explain how to stop people from burning women and how to rewrite the law so that women aren't property of men. But preventing guys from developing feelings for gals isn't as trivial. On April 10 2012 20:21 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 10 2012 19:58 Klockan3 wrote:On April 10 2012 19:43 BabyToss! wrote:
@Klockan3 - no, I do not respect people, who try to dismiss everything as 'utopia' and accept things as they are Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you. Edit: The point is that you haven't at all tried to tell me how you would get guys to stop hitting on girls. I argue that it is impossible. The drive to court and mate with the other sex is one of the strongest drives we have. It wont go away just because you want it to. Please tell me you're not reducing sexual harassment down to some biological imperative. I am not talking about sexual harassment, read my post. PM'ing a girl saying you love her is not sexual harassment. Giving a girl free stuff because you hope to hook up with her is not sexual harassment. On April 10 2012 20:23 BabyToss! wrote:On April 10 2012 20:21 khaydarin9 wrote:
Please tell me you're not reducing sexual harassment down to some biological imperative. I was actually wondering, if he is trying to downgrade guys to mere pile of hormones by his posts. If I were a guy, I'd be highly offended by his statements. Just saying. I know many guys, who are quite intelligent and far better than that; so no, it's not like the guys can't make their decision on how to treat a fellow gamer, who happens to be a female. Thank you for pointing it out, though. Individuals and groups differ quite a lot psychologically. For an individual it is just a choice, for the group it isn't. PMing a girl saying that you love her when it's not warranted is harassment. Hitting on girls in an environment where it's not warranted is harassment.
So, when is it warranted PM'ing girls saying that you love them? And who decided that games are not an environment where it is warranted to hit on people? It is a social activity where you meet people, to me it seems like a situation where people could hook up. And in fact, people are hooking up through online gaming. So why wouldn't it be warranted? Of course if the same person do it over and over it becomes harassment, but just once is harmless.
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Klockan3 once again trying to make guys look like primitive beings who just think with their peen more than anything else, because comment like 'so dogs are trying to hump each other because of society'. Human beings are far more complex than that, here's the news. There's no need to 'castrate' guys, wow, you truly have 'interesting' opinions. Once again, there's more to life than just sex and hitting on opposite sex. Maybe that concept is new to you, I do not know, but just because it's 'natural', it doesn't mean it's right, and as intelligent beings, we should know better than that. Which, most of us do. Luckily.
@DoubleReed - you must've misinterpreted my posts, as I'm taking arms and going against 'norms' and 'stereotypes', quite vocally so as well. This whole topic is about some stereotypes happening in e-sports/StarCraft 2 regarding women, the 'dress code' and stuff like that; and I honestly can't stand that crap, especially with the trend we get to see lately. I said I wanted diversity but also good content, rather than seeing pretty people (no matter if guy or girl). Hope that clarifies...
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On April 10 2012 20:59 BabyToss! wrote:
Klockan3 once again trying to make guys look like primitive beings who just think with their peen more than anything else, because comment like 'so dogs are trying to hump each other because of society'. Human beings are far more complex than that, here's the news. There's no need to 'castrate' guys, wow, you truly have 'interesting' opinions. Once again, there's more to life than just sex and hitting on opposite sex. Maybe that concept is new to you, I do not know, but just because it's 'natural', it doesn't mean it's right, and as intelligent beings, we should know better than that. Which, most of us do. Luckily.
Meh, can't argue with plebeians. Sure go on with your crusade with your white knights, I don't care. I was just trying to add some common sense to this whole discussion instead of letting it just developing into the usual rant about how everyone should get treated equally in every situation ever. But you guys obviously don't want a serious discussion about the subject. It must be so nice and easy to have a world were everything is black and white, since I am not white I must be black. Obviously.
Now you will probably be happy to hear that I will stop posting in this topic, I can't discuss with people who are as narrow minded as you.
User was warned for this post
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On April 10 2012 21:11 Klockan3 wrote:
Meh, can't argue with plebeians. Sure go on with your crusade with your white knights, I don't care. I was just trying to add some common sense to this whole discussion instead of letting it just developing into the usual rant about how everyone should get treated equally in every situation ever. But you guys obviously don't want a serious discussion about the subject. It must be so nice and easy to have a world were everything is black and white, since I am not white I must be black. Obviously.
Now you will probably be happy to hear that I will stop posting in this topic, I can't discuss with people who are as narrow minded as you.
Oh, wow... wanting everyone to be treated equally is oh so wrong... nah, nothing nice to say to someone like you. I hope that people with similar mindset won't be in majority though, for the sake of all of us. You did not add common sense, you added a lot of primitive clichees and frankly, you are one of the most narrow-minded persons in this thread. Because if you have to argue against people having equal chances and equal treatment, then well... glad you are out.
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On April 10 2012 20:53 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 20:47 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 10 2012 20:30 Klockan3 wrote:On April 10 2012 20:04 BabyToss! wrote:On April 10 2012 19:58 Klockan3 wrote:
Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you. Well, I'd be only repeating myself anyways, as I've already shared my bit in this topic; I am not here to convert the likes like you, I'm here to perhaps show there's something more than just accepting the 'standards' as they are, because that's how it was for who knows how long, to others, who are perhaps more receptive and willing to make a difference. You know, with this logic, it used to be common to burn women on stake as witches, because it fit agenda of certain groups! It even used to be common for women to be a property of men. So, why don't we continue with that, right? This is very exagerrated example, yes, but I think, as an image, how absurd thinking 'let's not even try to change things, after all, it's norm' it should be enough. I know that the argument "It has always been like this" is a bad argument, but as you would have noticed if you actually read what I said I am not using that argument. And then the argument "You can't say that just because it has never been done before it isn't possible" is even more ridiculous in most of the cases. Like I could argue that we should get every elementary school kids to jump 2 meters high in gym class and meet every counterargument with "You can't say that just because it has never been done before it isn't possible". Can you agree that males to develop romantic feelings for females? Can you agree that it is possible for this to happen online? Now, how would you stop guys from developing feelings from girls? When you answered that question please accept a professorship in psychology and the nobel peace prize. I can very easily explain how to stop people from burning women and how to rewrite the law so that women aren't property of men. But preventing guys from developing feelings for gals isn't as trivial. On April 10 2012 20:21 khaydarin9 wrote:On April 10 2012 19:58 Klockan3 wrote:On April 10 2012 19:43 BabyToss! wrote:
@Klockan3 - no, I do not respect people, who try to dismiss everything as 'utopia' and accept things as they are Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you. Edit: The point is that you haven't at all tried to tell me how you would get guys to stop hitting on girls. I argue that it is impossible. The drive to court and mate with the other sex is one of the strongest drives we have. It wont go away just because you want it to. Please tell me you're not reducing sexual harassment down to some biological imperative. I am not talking about sexual harassment, read my post. PM'ing a girl saying you love her is not sexual harassment. Giving a girl free stuff because you hope to hook up with her is not sexual harassment. On April 10 2012 20:23 BabyToss! wrote:On April 10 2012 20:21 khaydarin9 wrote:
Please tell me you're not reducing sexual harassment down to some biological imperative. I was actually wondering, if he is trying to downgrade guys to mere pile of hormones by his posts. If I were a guy, I'd be highly offended by his statements. Just saying. I know many guys, who are quite intelligent and far better than that; so no, it's not like the guys can't make their decision on how to treat a fellow gamer, who happens to be a female. Thank you for pointing it out, though. Individuals and groups differ quite a lot psychologically. For an individual it is just a choice, for the group it isn't. PMing a girl saying that you love her when it's not warranted is harassment. Hitting on girls in an environment where it's not warranted is harassment. So, when is it warranted PM'ing girls saying that you love them? And who decided that games are not an environment where it is warranted to hit on people? It is a social activity where you meet people, to me it seems like a situation where people could hook up. And in fact, people are hooking up through online gaming. So why wouldn't it be warranted? Of course if the same person do it over and over it becomes harassment, but just once is harmless.
Normally I disapprove of people giving relationship advice in any context, let alone on the internet, but I am going to break my own rule this once to tell you this: if she's not your girlfriend, or relative, or a close friend, it's probably not OK to PM her and tell her that you love her.
Also some general advice: it doesn't have to happen more than once. Saying inappropriate things to a person or about a person in, say, a workplace once could have legal ramifications.
You consider gaming to be a social activity just like any other? Go right ahead - but make sure you treat others with the same etiquette and respect that you would if you were all in a bar, or a book club, or a party, etc.
EDIT: Yes, calling people who disagree with you plebes is absolutely indicative of someone who is the epitome of respect for others T_T
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Hahaha damnit I just woke up and saw all this but I've got to run to work...
Klockan3, LOL: "You don't know what it was like growing up nerdy! Womens were so mean to us! We can't help it! We're just so socially awkward and horny by nature and nothing can change us so just learn to put up with our shit! Waahhhhhh!!! Get out of our one safe place!!"
You're adorable.
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Community doesn't need people like you Klockan. Women are 50% of the general population. Just because you're sexually attracted to them does not negate etiquette. PMing a stranger that you love them is stalkerish and creepy. I don't really care how you justify being stalkerish and creepy.
It's not like women never interact with men without objectification. Grow up, plebeian (lol).
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Zurich15358 Posts
On April 10 2012 05:17 Haemonculus wrote:
"These are deprived males." Do men not find this insulting? You suggest that they are completely incapable of controlling their own behavior, emotions, and reactions, (and you even imply that they cannot even understand their own emotions) [...]
On April 10 2012 20:23 BabyToss! wrote:
I was actually wondering, if he is trying to downgrade guys to mere pile of hormones by his posts. If I were a guy, I'd be highly offended by his statements.
Guys tend to be pretty realistic about this kind of stuff so this isn't really insulting. While exeggarated and loaded, these descriptions are unfortunately very precise. Take a one month tour through TL girl blogs for a good sample of just how incapable guys are with handling their own and other's emotions.
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On April 10 2012 21:49 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 05:17 Haemonculus wrote:
"These are deprived males." Do men not find this insulting? You suggest that they are completely incapable of controlling their own behavior, emotions, and reactions, (and you even imply that they cannot even understand their own emotions) [...] Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 20:23 BabyToss! wrote:
I was actually wondering, if he is trying to downgrade guys to mere pile of hormones by his posts. If I were a guy, I'd be highly offended by his statements. Guys tend to be pretty realistic about this kind of stuff so this isn't really insulting. While exeggarated and loaded, these descriptions are unfortunately very precise. Take a one month tour through TL girl blogs for a good sample of just how incapable guys are with handling their own and other's emotions.
Haha, and isn't it hilarious that women are considered the emotional, hysterical ones? Oh yes men are so logical.
And yes I do find it insulting and no that shit isn't realistic at all. All you're really saying is that men are more sexist than women.
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United States22883 Posts
I don't think he's saying it's intrinsic. I think he's just speaking to the lowest common denominator and in this case, because of where we are, the proof happens to lie in a bunch of silly girl blogs by boys. But there's girls like that too.
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lol at babytoss being the one to argue that guys are able to think with more than their dicks, normally that's something guys are eager to assert and girls are unconvinced  .
goodbye klockan, your contributions will be missed.
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why, just the other day, a strange man approximately 8 years older than me who i had never talked to before asked me to add him on skype and for my facebook, after calling me "my unichan" in some skype group for a game (i know one person in there)
my bad for putting my real name and picture on my skype profile
why so many guys think this is the way to go about meeting females online i will never understand
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On April 10 2012 22:51 unichan wrote:
why, just the other day, a strange man approximately 8 years older than me who i had never talked to before asked me to add him on skype and for my facebook, after calling me "my unichan" in some skype group for a game (i know one person in there)
my bad for putting my real name and picture on my skype profile
why so many guys think this is the way to go about meeting females online i will never understand
Well only a troll or a socially awkward/creepy guy would do something like that. And neither of those would probably approach a girl directly irl. Just pointing out this doesn't necessarily say much about the gaming/online community. It might just be the anonymity that arms people who would otherwise stay quiet in a corner.
Not saying that such a behaviour is okay, by the way.
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No, actually those people sometimes approach you irl. -.- (maybe I am really unlucky t.t)
However, I'd like to pull one point of discussion out of our dear plebeian friend's post: 'white-knighting'. A deragatory term more often than not used to describe a guy who said something along the lines of: "don't be an ass to her", "treat women with respect", etcetc. I think there is a context where this word can be used appropriately, but I have never seen it used there. Every context I've seen it used in, you could easily replace it with "being a decent human being". It pisses me off that guys are actively discouraging each other from treating women better; I wish this word would stop being used.
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On April 10 2012 23:52 RedJustice wrote:
No, actually those people sometimes approach you irl. -.- (maybe I am really unlucky t.t)
However, I'd like to pull one point of discussion out of our dear plebeian friend's post: 'white-knighting'. A deragatory term more often than not used to describe a guy who said something along the lines of: "don't be an ass to her", "treat women with respect", etcetc. I think there is a context where this word can be used appropriately, but I have never seen it used there. Every context I've seen it used in, you could easily replace it with "being a decent human being". It pisses me off that guys are actively discouraging each other from treating women better; I wish this word would stop being used.
It's used fairly accurately quite often, due to the above noted nature of your 'stereotypical nerd'(noting that stereotypes a) exist for a reason, because they are true for some number of a population and b) that they are nonetheless not indicative of an entire population), a lot of those 'decent comments' tend to be far more loaded in their context.
Anyhow, while Klockan has an interesting way of wording what he is saying(and yes it is in some form insulting), he is saying some true things. Men on the whole don't do everything in life to hook up, have sex, have children; they do however unavoidably do things in this context when faced with a woman that makes them think of such things(no it isn't uncontrollable). You're never going to eliminate getting hit on, even if it isn't the primary concern of an activity. Any activity that blends males and females together will inevitably lead to romantic interaction. This doesn't mean it has to be overt harassment, and no, most men won't go instantly into a deep romantic stage where they send 'I love you' PMs and penis pictures, but it's impossible to avoid some of it happening(lowest common denominators and whatnot)
.I don't believe(maybe wrongly) anyone here thinks that society is ever going to remove harmless(and unfortunately sometimes harmful, but clearly a minority case there) flirtation between sexes though, so I'm not sure why he took it that far; that topic, though related, is quite distantly removed from a discussion about female appearances on stage at a gaming event and the sexism that implies with regards to gaming in general.
Also, Haemonculus y u no post in LoL forum no more?
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On April 10 2012 08:53 Peachpuff wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 07:29 Xyik wrote:
Not sure why girls on the internet wouldn't want guys to hit on them? It's not really any different than in real life. If you're an average looking girl guys are going to treat you differently in a flirtatious manner. But I have no interest in anyone hitting on me, irl or online.
Yeah those guys suck!
Wanna get a drink some time and talk about how much those guys suck?
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Oh I didn't respond to you earlier BabyToss. You were decrying on how society doesn't properly accept people who don't fit in. What I was trying to say is that they actually do. There's nothing to stand up for.
Seriously, it's easy to come up with inhibitions and fear. But in this community I would honestly just say to go for it.
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On April 11 2012 00:26 red_ wrote:
Anyhow, while Klockan has an interesting way of wording what he is saying(and yes it is in some form insulting), he is saying some true things. Men on the whole don't do everything in life to hook up, have sex, have children; they do however unavoidably do things in this context when faced with a woman that makes them think of such things(no it isn't uncontrollable). You're never going to eliminate getting hit on, even if it isn't the primary concern of an activity. Any activity that blends males and females together will inevitably lead to romantic interaction. This doesn't mean it has to be overt harassment, and no, most men won't go instantly into a deep romantic stage where they send 'I love you' PMs and penis pictures, but it's impossible to avoid some of it happening(lowest common denominators and whatnot)
Maybe we're going to have to write this off as another one of those ridiculous fundamental differences between men and women, because I really don't think it's true that any activity that blends males and females together will lead to romantic interaction.
But maybe that's because I have a FRIENDZONE ... haha ...
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EPT
