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On April 09 2012 23:05 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 23:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 23:01 Chargelot wrote:On April 09 2012 22:50 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 22:44 beetlelisk wrote:On April 09 2012 22:36 Chargelot wrote:On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote:
RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called? In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own. Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun. I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class. Nice to meet you. Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude. On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do  Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online. If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around. The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist. I want to 2nd this one as well. What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority. This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make... Quiet sad;; I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story  Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM. A big problem is that "female" is a sex-linked term while "her" is gender linked. It's not quite clear, even to myself, a person who is studying to be a genetic biologist, if I am supposed to refer to a genetic male as a female for the sake of being polite. "female", as far as humans are concerned, denotes a person with XX for their 23rd chromosome pair. While "her" "she" "woman" etc denotes anyone who identifies with the gender typically assigned to females at birth. Don't get me wrong, I'll call her what she wants to be called out of a decent respect for her, as I have for all peoples. But it's not without its complications. If you are studying to be a genetic biologist you should know that a transgender is actually not physically equal to a man (in case of MtF as we have now), at least according to wiki and other sources it doesn't. But they don't suddenly change sexes, genetically speaking. She is stuck with her Y chromosome for life. That Y chromosome denotes a genetic male. While physically and socially, she is a woman. That's what I mean. And I am certainly not trying to disrespect her when I say that. I'm just trying to assert that Sex and Gender are two different things, which people on both sides of the argument need to understand.
You're kinda ignoring everything other than XX/XY. There are other combinations as well...
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On April 10 2012 02:10 Otolia wrote:My questions were entirely rhetorical and I was using you as a general form, not to describe you particularly. I was just attempting to show you that you have stereotypes too and you judged people too. I don't want to derail this thread into a debate on what is feminism so I'm not going to continue into that path.
My main point is : If you want the situation of women to get better in our community you'd better start supporting them, no matter how they looks. And you certainly have to stop describing them as attention-whore.
Well, the difference between so called 'feminism' and fairness is, that I can see the argument from both sides, whereas most of today's 'feminists' just want advantages for themselves, at the cost of being unfair to the other gender. Sadly, there are women, who do use their looks to gain an attention & that is where my frustrations stem from. And yes, I believe that is sad. Appearance totally shouldn't matter in the game industry. We all are gamers, and we should be equal, with similar opportunities, where what you do in game gets you far than some meaningless appearance.
Some girls get more opportunities because of not their passion for the game, but because of the appearance. I knew one female Master Zerg, participating on MLG as well, and she got nowhere near any attention like say, Ailuj, purely because that Zerg player was, what you'd define as 'mediocre', when it comes to looks. But, that Zerg player is someone, I respect far more as a gamer, than say, a woman, who gets noticed because of her appearance. I am looking for StarCraft 2 content, not for model's fashion. There are girls who I know are hardworking and yet, nobody notices them. Partly, because they can't be bothered to be spotlighted either, as they are focusing on the game, rather than focusing at puny sexism problems which we see flying around all the time, each time SC2 & women are mentioned in the same topic.
I personally would like to see switch in attitude both in guys and girls alike.
Guys should accept the fact, that there are women who play and stop fingerpointing at them, as if they were extraterrestials, or making them merely an object of sexual jokes, just because there's a woman.
Equally, women should try to blend in more, to be part of the community and not stand out because they are women and they think they are 'special' because of that - ie these female-only tournaments - they only pinpoint the fact that women are 'worse' and can't compete with guys. There will always be a skill gap, if we don't try hard enough. And of course, stop trying to appeal to male audience by mere appearance to get some special treatment, be it in form of help you'd otherwise not get or whatever. This is exactly that kind of thing, which gives ALL women who play the mark of 'attention whore' - just seeing some women flirt with progamers makes me sick in my stomach, and yes, I've seen it happening.
So, the fault is on both sides; just food for thought.
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I am curious about something...
As females how do you feel about Anna and Seltzer and their current positions in starcraft. (Though i dont really count Seltzer in relation to Anna since she actually at least came from a gaming background).
How do you feel as a woman when you see jobs handed to people with little to no interest/experience in Starcraft 2 or any other game, yet they are paid to host these events and interview the players?
For the life of me, I cannot figure out why IGN has decided to throw out their female hostess's in the tiniest little proper prom dresses. Well... I know why they do. But I honestly feel like it is degrading to every single person in the room and on the stream.
It feels like "hey well throw some ass at them.. nerds are lonely/horny. They will love this..." When honestly its a more of an insult than anything. I would traid Catspajamas or dApollo or any other caster as a host, rather than seeing someone in a tight dress walk on stage and try to pretend like she was interested or understood the games.
(And honestly I think Catspajamas or Moletrap or someone similar, who just ooze love for SC2... would be a fantastic host. Because its easy to hype the crowd when you are hyped yourself. Much better than "Wow that game was good.." "Ok. How was it good?" "I mean... wow it was just ... wow .. it was so good I cant even tell you why.... /smile")
It is one of those things where as much as women want to be treated like men and equally etc (tho I am not arguing that you shouldnt...) They also want to keep things like advancement simply because of their gender and sex appeal.
Anna wouldnt be on stage if she wasnt a female and good looking. Period.
I dont know Seltzer's background, but I doubt being a gorgeous female hasn't helped her get to where she is.
I honestly didnt mind Megumi as a hostess, because I know that she actually comes from a SC2 background. I know she used her sexuality to get famous and get the attention needed to have opportunities like she is given at IPL. But at least she went Starcraft 2> Girl. She learned and played and focused on SC2 before focusing on getting attention as a female gamer.
I dont know its just one of those paradoxes imo because Women want to advance their opportunities because of their gender, and then want "Hey dont give me special treatment because I am a woman."
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On April 09 2012 20:48 Zandar wrote:
Kpop is even worse. Those girls are all selected purely for looks. All the same hight and sizes. It doesn't even matter if they can sing, they can just moderate their voices.
This isnt entierly true, if they can prove to be an investment with having a decent voice and dance routine then they get plastic surgery paid for. In fact A LOT of kpop artist have this done. My friend from Korea and I were actually talking about this the other day haha.
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@MaestroSC
How do you feel as a woman when you see jobs handed to people with little to no interest/experience in Starcraft 2 or any other game, yet they are paid to host these events and interview the players?
It's a bit sad, if you ask me. Especially that they represent these women as 'candy-eyes' to male audience, effectivelly appealing to males only and disregarding the female audience with such move. Anna got the job because she is in relationship with iNcontroL and because she is pretty; although I don't know her enough to judge if she actually cares about SC2 & e-sports. But yes, you are right, initially, she's got ths opportunity through connections & her appearance. Is that fair? No. Is that fairly common in today's world? Sadly, yes.
I am not going to take this approach as a role model for myself. I am firm believer, that despite of world being full of unfainress, bias, society 'norms' and generally about 'business', we should be fair towards each other and do what we love, no matter what background we have, what gender we are or whatever puny thing...and the best thing I can do, is to make the change and to start with myself. Because in the reality, all we can influence is, this little corner of our world, ourselves and hope, that if we lead by example, some more people will follow; and even one person following a good example is a success for me.
It is an insult for me for women to be always portrayed in the sexual way, and I will always speak up against that. Women are not that and should be not treated as such.
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Well, hold on a minute.
These women are not being paid as casters, or handed jobs doing something like game design.
They're hosts, they're entertaining. They wear formal, expensive dresses because that's what we expect of a host of an event. That's why even total nerds like the casters wear jackets.
If there were a male host, I'd expect him to be tall, handsome, and in a tux. He'd be well-spoken, comfortable in front of a crowd, and personable.
Just like the female hosts.
These women weren't handed jobs, they're qualified for the position that they're performing. They have poise, grace, are calm in front of a crowd and a camera, and we're lucky that they can even make jokes about the games- the LoL host even did some impressions from the game.
The fact that they're attractive is just part of the business. You want the "face" of your organization to be someone attractive, but not intimidating. The fact that the audience of a gaming tournament is overwhelmingly male (I mean, c'mon, at least 80%) suggests that you have a female host. I'd prefer to have a male-female duo with a bit of chemistry to be honest (just like every major awards ceremony).
All this having been said, I've spent several weekends in bed with girlfriends watching MLG or IPL over the last couple years, and seen girls out at barcrafts. It can happen! I'm just still searching for the perfect gamergf- they're elusive.
*EDIT* We can debate attractiveness in the business community further if you like, but it is equally prevalent for both sexes in client-facing roles. Your sales and marketing people are almost universally more attractive than your engineers and accountants, because it is important that people like you at first impression in that role. Even in sports, a study was recently done that showed in the NFL, that attractive quarterbacks made more money than unattractive quarterbacks. That's as elite as Code S, and still showing favoritism towards attractiveness.
I'm not saying its fair, and I'm not saying that I'm the hottest dude evar cuz I do sales omfg! But I work out, keep myself fit, my hair and nails trimmed, etc because I have to in a client-facing role. Just like the female hosts do.
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On April 10 2012 02:33 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 23:05 Chargelot wrote:On April 09 2012 23:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 23:01 Chargelot wrote:On April 09 2012 22:50 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 22:44 beetlelisk wrote:On April 09 2012 22:36 Chargelot wrote:On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote:
RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall. If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called? In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own. Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun. I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class. Nice to meet you. Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude. On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:[quote] No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do [quote] I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online. If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around. The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist. I want to 2nd this one as well. What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority. This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make... Quiet sad;; I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM. A big problem is that "female" is a sex-linked term while "her" is gender linked. It's not quite clear, even to myself, a person who is studying to be a genetic biologist, if I am supposed to refer to a genetic male as a female for the sake of being polite. "female", as far as humans are concerned, denotes a person with XX for their 23rd chromosome pair. While "her" "she" "woman" etc denotes anyone who identifies with the gender typically assigned to females at birth. Don't get me wrong, I'll call her what she wants to be called out of a decent respect for her, as I have for all peoples. But it's not without its complications. If you are studying to be a genetic biologist you should know that a transgender is actually not physically equal to a man (in case of MtF as we have now), at least according to wiki and other sources it doesn't. But they don't suddenly change sexes, genetically speaking. She is stuck with her Y chromosome for life. That Y chromosome denotes a genetic male. While physically and socially, she is a woman. That's what I mean. And I am certainly not trying to disrespect her when I say that. I'm just trying to assert that Sex and Gender are two different things, which people on both sides of the argument need to understand. You're kinda ignoring everything other than XX/XY. There are other combinations as well...
And if this were a discussion on the social treatment of genetically varied peoples, I would discuss them too.
It's about females, which implies to some degree a standard XX. But even XXY or XYYY is still male.
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While I don't have anything more in particular to contribute at this moment (I left a short post on page 1), I just wanted to say that the discussion here has so far been a fantastic read. So thanks to all the people that contributed, and especially to the OP who got it started!
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@Crownlol - well, then my beef is, why woman's 'formal' always is making them look like so they are so revealing & thus, pointing them out as object of sexuality, for lack of better words? I mean, you can wear formal suit & pants as a woman and still be formal. This is kind of my peeve for quite a while. Just because it appeases the male audience? But what message it sends to the 'mortal' female gamers? Think about it. Isn't it something along the lines 'you have to be hot, in order to be even recognized'? How bad is that.. it makes me feel sick, personally.
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On April 10 2012 03:25 BabyToss! wrote:
@Crownlol - well, then my beef is, why woman's 'formal' always is making them look like so they are so revealing & thus, pointing them out as object of sexuality, for lack of better words? I mean, you can wear formal suit & pants as a woman and still be formal. This is kind of my peeve for quite a while. Just because it appeases the male audience? But what message it sends to the 'mortal' female gamers? Think about it. Isn't it something along the lines 'you have to be hot, in order to be even recognized'? How bad is that.. it makes me feel sick, personally.
Hosts of award shows in other venues are usually attractive male/female combos, or comedians. Men wear suits because they're "formal" and look nice. Women wear sparkly dresses and shit because they're "formal" and look nice. If you think women look better in a suit than they do in dresses, that's your right to think so, but the majority of the world disagrees with you. If you ask Anna if she wanted to wear a suit or a dress while hosting, she'd probably say a suit, because she thinks it's pretty, and likes to look pretty. (an assumption, because if I was asked to wear a suit or sweats while hosting, I'd say a suit, cause it makes me look baller.)
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On April 10 2012 03:28 Leyra wrote:
Hosts of award shows in other venues are usually attractive male/female combos, or comedians. Men wear suits because they're "formal" and look nice. Women wear sparkly dresses and shit because they're "formal" and look nice. If you think women look better in a suit than they do in dresses, that's your right to think so, but the majority of the world disagrees with you. If you ask Anna if she wanted to wear a suit or a dress while hosting, she'd probably say a suit, because she thinks it's pretty, and likes to look pretty. (an assumption, because if I was asked to wear a suit or sweats while hosting, I'd say a suit, cause it makes me look baller.)
Well, that's my beef with the whole 'formal' though. It encourages women to look revealing and thus, as some sort of sexual object. But, that is a problem of the society as a whole, rather than just SC2 & e-sports. But, it is still imo wrong in my eyes, and the women should be able to choose, even when on stage, on what they want to wear.
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On April 10 2012 03:25 BabyToss! wrote:
@Crownlol - well, then my beef is, why woman's 'formal' always is making them look like so they are so revealing & thus, pointing them out as object of sexuality, for lack of better words? I mean, you can wear formal suit & pants as a woman and still be formal. This is kind of my peeve for quite a while. Just because it appeases the male audience? But what message it sends to the 'mortal' female gamers? Think about it. Isn't it something along the lines 'you have to be hot, in order to be even recognized'? How bad is that.. it makes me feel sick, personally.
If anything, females have more portals because of their looks. A regular masters player wouldn't even get attention, while an attractive female has a chance. The males in the spotlight now are the top players, attractive ones, and the ones with entertaining personalities.
Some women enjoy getting made up and into dresses. If that's not you, it's not you. Attractiveness is universal. It's MUCH easier to look, and be drawn to an attractive person. Which is needed for viewership. I've seen women that are very attractive in a suit that's fitted properly.
Looks are an advantage. Personality another. Skill is undeniable. If a female was qualified for Code S, everyone would notice no matter how attractive. I don't even know all the males qualified for Code S right now.
While being 'hot' gets you recognized much quicker, it's no different than the male personalities that have arisen.
We all have a couple male players in mind that get more attention than their skills are worth.
A quickly rising competitive minded female gamer gets much more attention than the male counterpart at the same level of skill. So while attractive girls do have more exposure than the more homely looking, they still get more attention overall than the males in the same situation currently.
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On April 10 2012 03:31 BabyToss! wrote:
Well, that's my beef with the whole 'formal' though. It encourages women to look revealing and thus, as some sort of sexual object. But, that is a problem of the society as a whole, rather than just SC2 & e-sports. But, it is still imo wrong in my eyes, and the women should be able to choose, even when on stage, on what they want to wear.
I agree to some extent. If they're being paid, they should wear what their employer pays them to wear, as long as it's not culturally offensive. But ask any guy how they want to perform an award show, in sweats or in a suit, and 99% is gonna say in a suit, cause it looks good. Most people like looking good, cause it makes them feel good. Women are the same, they wear what people think looks good, because they want to feel good. It's not as simple as saying "society makes them wear it" imo, it's the women themselves too. You look good, you feel good, you feel good, you look good. It's a circle, lol
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@BabyToss!
"Formalwear" has been established for decades, and isn't generally too super revealing. A good formal dress should have proper materials and cut, etc, and a good one should accentuate whatever your best features are independent of your dress size. Yes, the ones these girls are wearing for this event are more on the sexy side (and if I'd worked as hard as them for that physique, I'd show it too), but they don't have to be. Although, this gets into the area of what is "looking good" vs "looking sexy", since they coincide quite a bit.
If you're looking at a guy in a suit, should it be fitted and tailored properly, so that his shoulders looks strong and his waist looks trim? Of course. However, this is easy for guys. "Looking good" in a professional sense also happens to be pretty sexy to most women.
Personally, I'd prefer to see red-carpet type dresses on female hosts. Yes, it's attractive, but they shouldn't be objectified. Just glamorous I guess.
At least in my experience, and I can't say I know how all types of women will act, most girls go for the same type of effect when they want to look great. They do their hair, their makeup, and get a nice expensive outfit that shows off whatever features they're most proud of (or least embarrassed of- I swear, even the most beautiful women have body issues. But that is a whole different discussion, fashion industry).
tl,dr; I have no problem with women getting all fancied up for hosting roles, but the limit should be at objectification. Event hosts? Great. Booth babes? Objects.
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On April 10 2012 03:36 Leyra wrote:
I agree to some extent. If they're being paid, they should wear what their employer pays them to wear, as long as it's not culturally offensive. But ask any guy how they want to perform an award show, in sweats or in a suit, and 99% is gonna say in a suit, cause it looks good. Most people like looking good, cause it makes them feel good. Women are the same, they wear what people think looks good, because they want to feel good. It's not as simple as saying "society makes them wear it" imo, it's the women themselves too. You look good, you feel good, you feel good, you look good. It's a circle, lol
Well, the thing is; it's more about the fact that women usually do care about what people tell about them, and they are much more critized, when it comes to their appearance, so they try to appease others. I've seen it happening, that one woman would gossip the other on how she looks, critically, and this is part of why women try to look good, in what the society sees as nice 'normally'. There is this 'normalization' and labelling in the society, and trying to say it's not there is rather blind statement. I know I was made to wear certain stuff and do certain stuff, because I was a female when I was young. And trust me, I hardly found it fair. I wanted to find my own way, which I eventually did.
I learnt to do what I love, learnt to wear what makes *me* feel good about myself and to feel some sort of self-worth. And I wish that today's society would be able to accept that people are unique beings and wouldn't label them based on gender or anything else. But, I guess that won't be the case, if we all keep excusing this whole what is 'normal' and 'formal' today, rather than looking at individuals.
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Man these conversations seem so bizarre. Who cares about pretty dresses? Dress in what you feel like. And if you want to look good, dress in whatever makes you look good. It's not like pantsuits don't look good. Its not like girls can't pull off the cargo pants/tank top look. Sheesh.
And NoMicro gave that long post on how you should/should not act as a girl on the Internet? Geez, not helping. Just be yourself. Be funny, be kind, be manner. Why should you blend in if you're trying to be noticed? Why are people overthinking this?
This is exactly the community to show off your personality (although I definitely would not be a negative person while on stream as that seems to generate haters).
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On April 10 2012 04:12 DoubleReed wrote:
Man these conversations seem so bizarre. Who cares about pretty dresses? Dress in what you feel like. And if you want to look good, dress in whatever makes you look good. It's not like pantsuits don't look good. Its not like girls can't pull off the cargo pants/tank top look. Sheesh.
And NoMicro gave that long post on how you should/should not act as a girl on the Internet? Geez, not helping. Just be yourself. Be funny, be kind, be manner. Why should you blend in if you're trying to be noticed? Why are people overthinking this?
My post wasn't about not being yourself. It was about being yourself, but acting with proper respect towards others. I think you missed the point a little. I was getting across a point about equality.
Be whoever you are, but if being who are towards someone bothers them and they ask you to stop. You do. Find someone else to joke with that has similar ideals and joke away.
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On April 10 2012 04:16 NoMicro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 04:12 DoubleReed wrote:
Man these conversations seem so bizarre. Who cares about pretty dresses? Dress in what you feel like. And if you want to look good, dress in whatever makes you look good. It's not like pantsuits don't look good. Its not like girls can't pull off the cargo pants/tank top look. Sheesh.
And NoMicro gave that long post on how you should/should not act as a girl on the Internet? Geez, not helping. Just be yourself. Be funny, be kind, be manner. Why should you blend in if you're trying to be noticed? Why are people overthinking this? My post wasn't about not being yourself. It was about being yourself, but acting with proper respect towards others. I think you missed the point a little. I was getting across a point about equality. Be whoever you are, but if being who are towards someone bothers them and they ask you to stop. You do. Find someone else to joke with that has similar ideals and joke away.
Having a few close-knit friends and FU to everyone else? I dunno. If I was a girl this is the sort of advice that would convince me to participate in the community less rather than more. Downright terrifying.
Come on, the way to be welcoming of women is be positive and excited. I want this community to be egalitarian. I don't want women to be scared of streaming or showing off their personality.
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On April 10 2012 04:24 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 04:16 NoMicro wrote:On April 10 2012 04:12 DoubleReed wrote:
Man these conversations seem so bizarre. Who cares about pretty dresses? Dress in what you feel like. And if you want to look good, dress in whatever makes you look good. It's not like pantsuits don't look good. Its not like girls can't pull off the cargo pants/tank top look. Sheesh.
And NoMicro gave that long post on how you should/should not act as a girl on the Internet? Geez, not helping. Just be yourself. Be funny, be kind, be manner. Why should you blend in if you're trying to be noticed? Why are people overthinking this? My post wasn't about not being yourself. It was about being yourself, but acting with proper respect towards others. I think you missed the point a little. I was getting across a point about equality. Be whoever you are, but if being who are towards someone bothers them and they ask you to stop. You do. Find someone else to joke with that has similar ideals and joke away. Having a few close-knit friends and FU to everyone else? I dunno. If I was a girl this is the sort of advice that would convince me to participate in the community less rather than more. Come on, the way to be welcoming of women is be positive and excited. I want this community to be egalitarian. I don't want women to be scared of streaming or showing off their personality.
Oh, sorry I see your point now. I tried to give a very black and white situation for a very complicated manner. I was trying to say that some personalities simply don't clash. By all means, girls should be themselves, get out there, expose their personalities to the community.
We shouldn't welcome them for being females, we should welcome them for their constructive input and varied personalities.
"Come on, the way to be welcoming of women is be positive and excited" I agree with this, but it applies to males as well. If you're positive and excited towards someone of course they'll enjoy the reception! Just make sure you're positive and excited for a reason other than them just being a woman.
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On April 10 2012 04:31 NoMicro wrote:
We shouldn't welcome them for being females, we should welcome them for their constructive input and varied personalities.
You speak from my heart, sir.
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EPT
