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Introduction+ Show Spoiler +
Hi guys!
To my and hopefully your excitement, i created a list of the best 30 foreign players. As you may know, those lists are rly subjective. I try to look at achievements and latest achievements, but its unavoidable to get personal opinions into this.
There is no such thing as the perfect „ranking“, but i enjoy doing those, most ppl enjoy reading them, but not many ppl put rankings out there.
My ranking is purely about foreign players and i exclude asian, non korean players as well – that means you wont find chinese or taiwanese players in my ranking. The simple reason being: i dont have much information about these scenes. I obviously know that Sen, Xigua and also MacSed are great players, but its impossible to compare them to the players in EU and NA. So you could consider it a „Western Foreigner Top 30“.
I put quite some work into it and i hope i get at least some reads, since i think a ranking made by a random person should be posted as a blog and not as a thread in the general section, even though it might end up with no responses at all.
So here is the list for this month! (i try to release one every month)
 
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Yea.. not really a perfect ranking. I won't really get into who I think is ahead of who here. I do agree stephano is number 1 tho, who couldn't? The graphics and layout are GREAT!
Good job, cool post.
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Good job on this post, i like it!
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Idra sixth? I'm not a idra hater but I don't agree with that at all.
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Nice list! I think Idra is quite overrated here, as his recent play hasn't been with the times at all and he hasn't moved on from his old mindset. Grubby, Kas and Dimaga are all arguably better than Idra.
Conversely, Feast is massively underrated. He is definitely playing better than Idra at the moment, and probably better than Mana/Demuslim/Whitera.
Other than that, I think Cloud could be a little lower, and NightEnd a little higher.
The Top 3 are pretty much undisputably the correct Top 3 foreigners, it's just questionable about the order. I agree with Stephano first, but I'd put Naniwa second and Huk 3rd. It's a close call though. Huk's play still looks so sloppy to me, whereas Naniwa looks far more polished - it looks as though Naniwa has taken far more in terms of refinement away from Korea than Huk has. On the other hand, Huk thrives better in crazy situations and Naniwa is almost always so standard (except against Nestea  ) - as I said, a close call.
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Not giving any reasons for any of this ? Particularly I'm curious how you justify putting Idra at #6, behind people he just finished losing to at IEM like Feast, Kas, and Darkforce.
Overall I'm sure you did the best you could, but realistically you can never rank 30 people in any real coherent order.
But I'll bite anyway . I think Tod could be higher. It feels like we've only seen him vs top koreans in forever, making him look worse than he is. Also I think Major, Bling, and maybe even Beastyqt could very justifiably take a spot in that top 30, perhaps over people like Socke and Cloud.
One final note, I think it's one hell of a stretch to call Select a foreigner.
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Select is Korean.
HuK and Naniwa have been playing in Korea.
It's certainly possible to include Sen in there, unless you personally don't know much about him.
Other than that, I'd just move some people around and in or out of your Top 30 vs. Just Missed Lists. Nice ^^
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IMO demuslim should be higher and morrow should be higher as well
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as i said, its rly hard to rank them, but im having fun at it.
idra is arguably overrated due to his latest results, and feast overrated - but long term performance also counts somewhat - and also the opponents you face, how the games acutally went.
Feast had some rly nice tournament results in the last 2 months, but that still doesnt make him a solid top-foreigner imo, juding from his play and from the relative short amount of time he had success in.
Idra on the other hand had many success in the past. when u watch him play sometimes nowadays, you still clearly see his caliber of play. he just refuses to show it more and more. I still concider him one of the best foreign zergs nevertheless, since i wouldnt favour any player behind him to go further in - lets say an MLG event - that would start tomorrow!
The longer feast keeps up his great play, and idra his bad play, the more will the ranking change next month!
Cloud being overrated? hm - i concider rank 21-30 somewhat even. Cloud showed some nice results lately, survivng the tough HSC4 groupstage and doing OK in teamleagues / EPS. You might be right about nightend, i also feel strelok is a little low, but as i said, you have to rank somehow^^
try it yourself, its harder than you think!
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On March 17 2012 08:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Select is Korean.
HuK and Naniwa have been playing in Korea.
It's certainly possible to include Sen in there, unless you personally don't know much about him.
Other than that, I'd just move some people around and in or out of your Top 30 vs. Just Missed Lists. Nice ^^
to me, select lived long enough in the US to be concidered foreigner. he learned the game as a foreigner living here, therefore, i concider him foreigner.
HuK is a foreigner training in korea, not a canadian that moved to Korea and then suddenly learning about starctarft 2 - in my mind, they are all foreigners.
I know about sen, but we dont see anything from him despinte 3/4 major events and sometimes gsl in a whole year - thats too little to give him a fair ranking imo. he could very well be in the top 8, but i cannot say that without doubts in my mind.
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On March 17 2012 08:59 Complicated wrote:
Where is slush?
Slush, Bling, elfi, TLO, slivko were the 5 ppl i rly had a hard time not putting into the list.
But when i look at 20-30 and have a bo7 showmatch between any of them vs slush, i would tend to favor his opponent slightly. maybe he will once again convince me with a great MLG performance 
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Okay I need to whine about something I feel really strongly about real quick.
You absolutely cannot count both Select and Huk as foreigners. Select is a Korean person with a Korean name and a Korean family who speaks Korean as his first language and was born in Korea and grew up in Korea and has recently been living in Korea. Yes I know it's a run-on sentence.
Anyway, the only possible way you could call him a foreigner is that he's been living in the US a lot for the past couple years. But if you want to go that way, Huk's been living in Korea for like the same amount of time. And maybe Violet's a foreigner now ?
Sorry, rant.
Edit: Whoopsie daisy. I meant to make a second post but I edited over an older one ! Whatever I said before is gone now. I think it was just me being a bit of a dick towards Idra so maybe its for the best. :D:D:D
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On March 17 2012 09:09 Bibbit wrote:Okay I need to whine about something I feel really strongly about real quick. You absolutely cannot count both Select and Huk as foreigners. Select is a Korean person with a Korean name and a Korean family who speaks Korean as his first language and was born in Korea and grew up in Korea and has recently been living in Korea. Yes I know it's a run-on sentence. Anyway, the only possible way you could call him a foreigner is that he's been living in the US a lot for the past couple years. But if you want to go that way, Huk's been living in Korea for like the same amount of time. And maybe Violet's a foreigner now ? Sorry, rant. Edit: Whoopsie daisy. I meant to make a second post but I edited over an older one ! Whatever I said before is gone now. I think it was just me being a bit of a dick towards Idra so maybe its for the best. :D:D:D
well i explained why i concider them both foreigners. both learned the game here and only went for training to korea.
select lived in the us for a long time and does live in the US again.
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You accidently put idra 6th and sheth 16th 
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On March 17 2012 09:19 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 09:09 Bibbit wrote:Okay I need to whine about something I feel really strongly about real quick. You absolutely cannot count both Select and Huk as foreigners. Select is a Korean person with a Korean name and a Korean family who speaks Korean as his first language and was born in Korea and grew up in Korea and has recently been living in Korea. Yes I know it's a run-on sentence. Anyway, the only possible way you could call him a foreigner is that he's been living in the US a lot for the past couple years. But if you want to go that way, Huk's been living in Korea for like the same amount of time. And maybe Violet's a foreigner now ? Sorry, rant. Edit: Whoopsie daisy. I meant to make a second post but I edited over an older one ! Whatever I said before is gone now. I think it was just me being a bit of a dick towards Idra so maybe its for the best. :D:D:D well i explained why i concider them both foreigners. both learned the game here and only went for training to korea. select lived in the us for a long time and does live in the US again.
No Huk didn't. He moved to Korea in I think October of 2010, aka 2 months after release. To put it in perspective, in beta and early release, Huk and qxc were pretty big rivals for top NA players (alongside Idra). Huk went to Korea and qxc went to Spain for school. Suddenly Huk is one of the best players in the world and qxc isn't. No disrespect to qxc of course, he pretty barely misses the top 30 foreigners for me.
In short, if you don't think Huk's time in Korea was among the biggest causes (if not the biggest, which I would argue it is), you're frankly delusional.
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On March 17 2012 09:24 Mementoss wrote:You accidently put idra 6th and sheth 16th
:D
thanks for the responses guys!
most of you concentrate on IdrA being overrated and giving a 2** rating because of it. not that i would care, but thats pretty mean :/
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very pretty. is this supposed to be as of now, or all time?
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On March 17 2012 09:25 Bibbit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 09:19 KalWarkov wrote:On March 17 2012 09:09 Bibbit wrote:Okay I need to whine about something I feel really strongly about real quick. You absolutely cannot count both Select and Huk as foreigners. Select is a Korean person with a Korean name and a Korean family who speaks Korean as his first language and was born in Korea and grew up in Korea and has recently been living in Korea. Yes I know it's a run-on sentence. Anyway, the only possible way you could call him a foreigner is that he's been living in the US a lot for the past couple years. But if you want to go that way, Huk's been living in Korea for like the same amount of time. And maybe Violet's a foreigner now ? Sorry, rant. Edit: Whoopsie daisy. I meant to make a second post but I edited over an older one ! Whatever I said before is gone now. I think it was just me being a bit of a dick towards Idra so maybe its for the best. :D:D:D well i explained why i concider them both foreigners. both learned the game here and only went for training to korea. select lived in the us for a long time and does live in the US again. No Huk didn't. He moved to Korea in I think October of 2010, aka 2 months after release. To put it in perspective, in beta and early release, Huk and qxc were pretty big rivals for top NA players (alongside Idra). Huk went to Korea and qxc went to Spain for school. Suddenly Huk is one of the best players in the world and qxc isn't. No disrespect to qxc of course, he pretty barely misses the top 30 foreigners for me. In short, if you don't think Huk's time in Korea was among the biggest causes (if not the biggest, which I would argue it is), you're frankly delusional.
well ofc he learned most about sc2 in korea. but hes just there for practicing the game! that doesnt make him korean imo.
lets compare it to this:
An american soldier who is in the rammstein airbase in germany for 3 years - for his work - isnt a german. hes american and he lives here for his work (thats how i see huk).
A korean living some in korea, some in the US despite anything related to his work (in this case, sc2) can in my opinion be concidered both - in fact, he represented North America in several different events (Beta: Europe vs NA - Blizzard invitaiontals: concidered NA player - same for IEM's).
But i understand that you concider one or the other not a foreigner, its ok and shouldnt be talked about too much in this blog imo - everybody has his own view on things since there is no clear answer to it
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On March 17 2012 09:32 dAPhREAk wrote:
very pretty. is this supposed to be as of now, or all time?
hard to answer - i think its 80% "as of now", since current results count a lot more then long term achievements for this ranking.
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lOL Idra at six? lol neither his mother would say that ... Idra is so bad that i feel he should be below 20 for sure
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where is ret in this? T_T
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On March 17 2012 10:22 Xarow wrote:
where is ret in this? T_T
4th place :D
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On March 17 2012 10:22 Xarow wrote:
where is ret in this? T_T
he's 4th
LLLOrly should be in the list tho
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On March 17 2012 10:22 Xarow wrote:
where is ret in this? T_T
after his great mlg performance, i put him on 4. i concider the "distance" between 3 and 4 bigger than from 4 to 8 though, if that makes any sense^^
On March 17 2012 10:33 Skiro wrote:
LLLOrly should be in the list tho
well, he kind of dissappeared in the last 2 months :/
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On March 17 2012 10:33 Skiro wrote:he's 4th LLLOrly should be in the list tho
who is that?
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Idra = 6? Never, more like ~20-30
SeleCT = 7? Nope, has absolutly no results in the past 6 month and btw he is KOREAN!
Jinro = 28? He shouldn't be in the ranking, seriously. There are so many who are waaaay better. (elfi, Haypro, TLO?, BlinG, Naama, delphi, snute.... even players like Illusion, qxc, Goody are probably better)
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On March 17 2012 10:56 HejaBVB wrote:
Idra = 6? Never, more like ~20-30
SeleCT = 7? Nope, has absolutly no results in the past 6 month and btw he is KOREAN!
Jinro = 28? He shouldn't be in the ranking, seriously. There are so many who are waaaay better. (elfi, Haypro, TLO?, BlinG, Naama, delphi, snute.... even players like Illusion, qxc, Goody are probably better)
i think underrate jinro a bit. its pretty hard to show any results when u are in korea - what did naama show since hes been there, although he performed well before he went to korea?
dont argue about select being a foreigner or not, its not a thread in this blog and we discussed it already. and well, although ladder is not of high value for my ranking, top gm ranks in korea still mean something. and no results is wrong. plus: results arent all, watch his games. in the last 6 months? when were his code A wins.
idra 6, ye i agree his shown skill in the last weeks is rank 20ish. but he deserves more since everyone knows and you can see what hes capable of - and what he achieved in the past.
ty for the answer anyway :D although i dont think you are pretty educated in foreign performances compared to others in this thread
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This is actually a pretty accurate portrayal of the current Power Rankings imo. Although I do love IdrA, it seems that a few others have outperformed him lately, however I do have confidence he has the potential to be top 5 (Although potential shouldn't be extrapolated into the rankings).
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On March 17 2012 09:09 Bibbit wrote:Okay I need to whine about something I feel really strongly about real quick. You absolutely cannot count both Select and Huk as foreigners. Select is a Korean person with a Korean name and a Korean family who speaks Korean as his first language and was born in Korea and grew up in Korea and has recently been living in Korea. Yes I know it's a run-on sentence. Anyway, the only possible way you could call him a foreigner is that he's been living in the US a lot for the past couple years. But if you want to go that way, Huk's been living in Korea for like the same amount of time. And maybe Violet's a foreigner now ? Sorry, rant. Edit: Whoopsie daisy. I meant to make a second post but I edited over an older one ! Whatever I said before is gone now. I think it was just me being a bit of a dick towards Idra so maybe its for the best. :D:D:D
Huk has been living in Korea for less than a year, it was my impression that Select was living in America for like 6-7 years (could be wrong, my point is invalid if I am). That's a pretty massive difference. Also, the reason why so many Koreans are so good at SC2 is because so many Koreans were so good at SC1 (and to a lesser extent, WC3). Koreans have known how to make good RTS players far before SC2. Just because Huk has in fact picked up a lot of his SC2 skill from being in Korea doesn't make him a Korean at all. He isn't a product of the Korean scene. He went there far after it was determined that Korea was the place to be for Starcraft. And I don't know Select's history exactly, but it was my impression that he got good at RTS while he was in America, and was in America during beta and for over a year after release. He wasn't a product of the SC1 "we know how to produce insanely good and hard-working RTS players" machine. I would honestly consider Idra more of a Korean than either Select or Huk.
On topic: I think Idra is a little overrated, and White-ra and Cloud are significantly overrated. Feast, Slush, and Major are underrated imo. Slush has had so few opportunities to prove himself compared to everyone else, but he has shown himself to be very strong in his few appearances.
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would be cool if you justified your rankings
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Results according to current TLPD:
1. Stephano
2. Happy
3. Naniwa
4. Nerchio
5. Titan
6. Ret
7. Sen
8. Thorzain
9. Sheth
10. LiveZerg
11. Huk
12. Mana
13. Slivko
14. XiGua
15. Bratok
16. Monchi
17. Sjow
18. Feast
19. Pomi
20. Diestar
21. DDE
22. Fraer
23. Namhcir
24. Beastyqt
25. Bly
Players from the OP who miss the cutoff: Select, Idra, Kas, Dimaga, Demuslim (although he's close), WhiteRa, Morrow, Grubby, Socke (although he's close), Sjow, Hasuobs, Cloud, Darkforce, Strelok, Nightend (although he's close), Jinro, and Tod.
It's interesting to see that most of the players who made big names for themselves in the past are no longer in the top 25 foreigners in terms of ELO.
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I agree up to 5. Why are idra and select 6 and 7 when neither have any good recent results, while Kas is 8 with 3rd at iem and sheth is 16 with all kill of EG (including #6 idra, #13 Demu and 2 Koreans)
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Agree on the top 3 players, although no idea which way I would order them at the moment.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Gut reactions:
+ Show Spoiler +1. Stephano
2. HuK
3. NaNiwa
4. Ret
5. ThorZaIN - (No issues with the top five, although I'd hasten to add that all of these guys are really really close. Huge gap between #5 and the rest)
6. IdrA - Much too high
7. SeleCT - A little high
8. Kas
9. DIMAGA - Much too high.
10. SaSe - Too low
11. MaNa
12. Nerchio - Too low
13. DeMusliM - A little high
14. White-Ra - too high
15. Feast - Much too high
16. Sheth - Way too low
17. BRAT_OK - No, no, no. Not in the top 30 at all.
18. MorroW - Too low
19. Grubby - I have no idea about Grubby, some days he's up here, some days he's off the top by a mile.
20. Happy - No idea about Happy either. Online, he's been a beast, offline he's been terrible.
21. Socke
22. SjoW - Another confusing one. Could be up, could be down or off. Dunno.
23. HasuObs - Recent results aside, until Hasu shows us more than one style, I don't think he belongs here
24. ClouD - Not in the top 30
25. DarKFoRcE - I don't think DF is so good, but he keeps winning, so what do I know?
26. Strelok - Not in the top 30
27.NightEnD - A little low
28. Jinro
29. ToD - Too low
30. TITAN - Too low
Deserved to be on this list: Beastyqt 100%, Naama 95%, GosI[Terran] 80%, sLivko 80%, BlinG 50%
I think TLO and HayprO are on here too, but I recognize I'm a little biased on that front.
Criminal omissions from your "Close but no Cigar" list: Livezerg, Abver, LucifroN
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where the fuck are sen and xigua
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I feel like IdrA, BratOK, Happy, ClouD are all too highly ranked.
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few people in wrong places but top three are correct id put more Nani and HuK as joint second but I suppose we cant really do that, only one I see deffiantly not desrving to be as high as he is is Idra, if you did it for the entire life of sc2 then fair enough but for 2012 he is so much lower... Demuslim also hasnt done a lot really. Jinro also hasnt done anything at all since he won a MLG and got code S back in very early 2011 poss 2010.
Hoping that both Jinro and Idra kick start their year and push on and do things in 2012!!!
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^ jinro didn't just get code S, he got back to back round of 4s in gsl right after winning MLG.. that's a serious achievement. there hasn't been another one like it for foreigners since. foreigners get smashed in GSL.
top 4 should obviously be stephano huk nani and idra, they are the only one's that compete for 1st place win's vs koreans in major tournaments. i don't know how you get ret as 4th instead of idra.
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On March 17 2012 19:50 Epoch wrote:
^ jinro didn't just get code S, he got back to back round of 4s in gsl right after winning MLG.. that's a serious achievement. there hasn't been another one like it for foreigners since. foreigners get smashed in GSL.
top 4 should obviously be stephano huk nani and idra, they are the only one's that compete for 1st place win's vs koreans in major tournaments. i don't know how you get ret as 4th instead of idra.
Idra... right now? Idra competes with Koreans for 1st place in major tournaments?
I want what you are smoking.
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On March 17 2012 19:55 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 19:50 Epoch wrote:
^ jinro didn't just get code S, he got back to back round of 4s in gsl right after winning MLG.. that's a serious achievement. there hasn't been another one like it for foreigners since. foreigners get smashed in GSL.
top 4 should obviously be stephano huk nani and idra, they are the only one's that compete for 1st place win's vs koreans in major tournaments. i don't know how you get ret as 4th instead of idra. Idra... right now? Idra competes with Koreans for 1st place in major tournaments? I want what you are smoking.
Make 2 please!!
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@tree.hugger:
IdrA: Probably yes.
SeleCt: hm, probably.
Dimaga: It seems like it, but he always delivers offline somehow. maybe a tiny bit.
SaSe: Didnt show anything tbh. i like his play and his style, therefore i put im higher than he probably should be
DeMusliM/White-Ra: hard to judge, i disagree with demu though.
Feast: much too high - others argue hes much too low. look at his recent results!
Sheth: 1 allkill - what else did he show? watch at what he did (after i posted this) at redbull lan. i think you rly tend to overrate him cause hes a mannerbear and had 1 huge (online) result lately.
BratOK: you didnt watch him play lately, right? you wont see him often, but when u see him, he delivers
HasuObs: watch team-game results, aside from losing to illusion, he always wins somehow, even against koreans. Furthermore, he has decent offline results.
ClouD: You probably dont even know him. Impressive results lately, if anything, hes rated too low.
Strelok: well, hes still a very solid player and even beat lucky in assembly i believe, although still not making it out of the groups (very hard groups). i still think he belongs here, hard to judge.
Nightend: i agree, he feels a little low.
ToD/TiTaN: Probably, but there was no room left in the little higher ranks :D
@Kraznaya:
I explained why i didnt put sen, xigua, macsed in - its hard to judge them for me since the regions come closer together. i didnt see enough to know what skilllevel they rly are. if you want me to judge them, sen would probably get rank 6, xigua rank 9, macsed top 25.
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I think Titan and ToD should definitely be higher. If you watch them play they both seem to be better than Grubby and NightEnD but they are quite a few numbers below them.
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Is this based on actual skill or on odds of being able to win a tournament.
If it's on tournament win odds(assuming koreans are playing) I'd take out jinro, happy, stelok, cloud, kas and replace with
elfi,bling,haypro, major, kiwikaki.
for 15 protoss, 10 zerg and 5 terran, which is more accurate and reflective of foreigner success I think. If it's based on actual skill I'd probably take out bunch of the protoss put back terran, along with illusion, kawaii, dde, qxc, naama. Since they practice on korea and are actually good not just because P seems to "suit" foreigners much better.
If it was a tournament with no Koreans also the terrans odds would go up.
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On March 17 2012 16:46 Kraznaya wrote:
where the fuck are sen and xigua
Asia.
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On March 18 2012 00:34 Nibbler89 wrote:
Is this based on actual skill or on odds of being able to win a tournament.
If it's on tournament win odds(assuming koreans are playing) I'd take out jinro, happy, stelok, cloud, kas and replace with
elfi,bling,haypro, major, kiwikaki.
for 15 protoss, 10 zerg and 5 terran, which is more accurate and reflective of foreigner success I think. If it's based on actual skill I'd probably take out bunch of the protoss put back terran, along with illusion, kawaii, dde, qxc, naama. Since they practice on korea and are actually good not just because P seems to "suit" foreigners much better.
If it was a tournament with no Koreans also the terrans odds would go up.
taking kas out of a top 30 foreigner list is pretty reflect how much your opinion is worth.
probably a frustrated terran? thats how u sound.
anyway, ty for the huge feedback, didnt expect that, makes me motivated to keep watching the players even more carefully to release better lists in the next months!
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On March 18 2012 02:39 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 00:34 Nibbler89 wrote:
Is this based on actual skill or on odds of being able to win a tournament.
If it's on tournament win odds(assuming koreans are playing) I'd take out jinro, happy, stelok, cloud, kas and replace with
elfi,bling,haypro, major, kiwikaki.
for 15 protoss, 10 zerg and 5 terran, which is more accurate and reflective of foreigner success I think. If it's based on actual skill I'd probably take out bunch of the protoss put back terran, along with illusion, kawaii, dde, qxc, naama. Since they practice on korea and are actually good not just because P seems to "suit" foreigners much better.
If it was a tournament with no Koreans also the terrans odds would go up. taking kas out of a top 30 foreigner list is pretty reflect how much your opinion is worth. probably a frustrated terran? thats how u sound. anyway, ty for the huge feedback, didnt expect that, makes me motivated to keep watching the players even more carefully to release better lists in the next months!
Wait so.. I replace kas with major and that means my opinion is worth little when you were the one that included kas but not major in the first place? If you think Major doesn't even belong on top 30 while kas is #8 that speaks to how much YOUR opinion is worth. ( not that it matters for either of us this is just for fun /fan obviously, I don't know why you had to get so aggressive) Kas is also still a very good player.Also, if it's based purely on tournament results(which I asked) then removing some of the lower terran and putting in the protoss I listed with more big tournament success makes sense.Also you reason you don't put major in top 30 because of lack of tournament entry / results. As opposed to jinro?
Or is it because I substituted a lot of the weaker terrans with protoss to reflect the tournament results(which i thought this was based on, thats why i specifically asked if it was based on skill or just results) which also makes sense considering results / racial distribution of the foreign players in the first place ( a lot more p compared to T). You also include korean terrans(dde,illusion,select) which is just weird you might as well include OGS MC since hes SK gaming now. Even though they may have lived in US I wouldn't really consider them western player Select still says his English is poor and his TLPD lists him as SK and I believe he trains in SK too? Illusion usually identifies as korean as well, I was saying that just because they lived in US for awhile doesn't mean they should count as westerner player imo, but then you act like i'm an idiot for having that opinion too..
I also even included the caveat that if there are no koreans the terran will do better, terran just have a hard time beating superior opponents compared to p and z, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=317571. Partially because of how volatile zvz / pvp is and partly because of how its really hard to beat a superior player in tvt compared to zvt / pvt because of various all ins.
Yes I am frustrated terran but it wasn't really relevant to the truth of the matter or my opinion on your power rank. TBH I think most people in the top 30 will be pretty close anyways and then its more about just organizing the top 6-10 or so I just disagreed with some of the terrans you put in.
Anyways more aggressive posting from you saying I'm banned for stupidity (which to your credit you edited out) sure my first post may have been a bit tongue in cheek but it was still based on facts. I think you were just offended that I implied there's more successful foreign protoss players because there are more foreign protoss players because protoss suits foreigners who are usually considered slower compared to koreans( I didn't even realize you were protoss player until afterwards but I guess that explains your reaction).Once again lol, that several of the terrans are asian/korean but none of the protoss or zerg are. Keep your head in the sand though , considering you only addressed one argument(barely) before calling me stupid and banning me, I imagine it will be there for quite some time
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ye i should include MC lol
dde illusion and select lived in the us before sc2 even came out, so does MC right. oh w8.
Kas showed offline results. wc3 3rd, iem 3rd, incredible online results.
Major didnt show anything. i think hes good, but he didnt even play any notable tournament lately
didnt get agressive on you, i just stated that i think you dont know much about the foreign scene which you prooved to be true once again.
And you also stated your bias towards terran being the weakest race.
i dont have a problem with ppl disagreeing with me as you saw in the answers i gave before, but your statements are just of a different level.
you are banned from my blog, sir.
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I usually just laugh at most peoples interpretations of 'power ranks' but I actually like this one quite a bit o.o
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On March 17 2012 14:53 tree.hugger wrote:Gut reactions: + Show Spoiler +1. Stephano
2. HuK
3. NaNiwa
4. Ret
5. ThorZaIN - (No issues with the top five, although I'd hasten to add that all of these guys are really really close. Huge gap between #5 and the rest)
6. IdrA - Much too high
7. SeleCT - A little high
8. Kas
9. DIMAGA - Much too high.
10. SaSe - Too low
11. MaNa
12. Nerchio - Too low
13. DeMusliM - A little high
14. White-Ra - too high
15. Feast - Much too high
16. Sheth - Way too low
17. BRAT_OK - No, no, no. Not in the top 30 at all.
18. MorroW - Too low
19. Grubby - I have no idea about Grubby, some days he's up here, some days he's off the top by a mile.
20. Happy - No idea about Happy either. Online, he's been a beast, offline he's been terrible.
21. Socke
22. SjoW - Another confusing one. Could be up, could be down or off. Dunno.
23. HasuObs - Recent results aside, until Hasu shows us more than one style, I don't think he belongs here
24. ClouD - Not in the top 30
25. DarKFoRcE - I don't think DF is so good, but he keeps winning, so what do I know?
26. Strelok - Not in the top 30
27.NightEnD - A little low
28. Jinro
29. ToD - Too low
30. TITAN - Too low
Deserved to be on this list: Beastyqt 100%, Naama 95%, GosI[Terran] 80%, sLivko 80%, BlinG 50%
I think TLO and HayprO are on here too, but I recognize I'm a little biased on that front.
Criminal omissions from your "Close but no Cigar" list: Livezerg, Abver, LucifroN
totally disagree with Feast, he showed amazing resuslts (went through in 3 IEM groupstages)
he should be higher, not lower or out
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Decent ranking.... are you planning on doing this feature monthly? It would be cool to see.
While I'm sure everyone will disagree on the exact placement, I think the overall list is more important, and I do think it's a pretty good list.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On March 17 2012 23:14 KalWarkov wrote:
@tree.hugger:
IdrA: Probably yes.
SeleCt: hm, probably.
Dimaga: It seems like it, but he always delivers offline somehow. maybe a tiny bit.
SaSe: Didnt show anything tbh. i like his play and his style, therefore i put im higher than he probably should be
DeMusliM/White-Ra: hard to judge, i disagree with demu though.
Feast: much too high - others argue hes much too low. look at his recent results!
Sheth: 1 allkill - what else did he show? watch at what he did (after i posted this) at redbull lan. i think you rly tend to overrate him cause hes a mannerbear and had 1 huge (online) result lately.
BratOK: you didnt watch him play lately, right? you wont see him often, but when u see him, he delivers
HasuObs: watch team-game results, aside from losing to illusion, he always wins somehow, even against koreans. Furthermore, he has decent offline results.
ClouD: You probably dont even know him. Impressive results lately, if anything, hes rated too low.
Strelok: well, hes still a very solid player and even beat lucky in assembly i believe, although still not making it out of the groups (very hard groups). i still think he belongs here, hard to judge.
Nightend: i agree, he feels a little low.
ToD/TiTaN: Probably, but there was no room left in the little higher ranks :D
Results aren't everything. Players become good before they achieve results, only rarely the other way around. A good ranking shouldn't list results or be too overly based on results, imo, because that tells us what we already know. A really good ranking should tell us who is good at the moment, and then be borne out by the results of the following events. I'm a firm believer in figuring out how good someone is by watching them, and not by putting too much stock into their finishes or TLPD.
DIMAGA - I think he has flaws in his play that he hasn't corrected in a year. He doesn't manage large armies so well; that's huge. He's the world champion of losing large armies with no micro. He rarely ever harasses; he loses too often against smart players because they know they can get away with a ton and just hold his single, strong attack. I think DIMAGA gets terribly inconsistent. I'd place him behind Nerchio and Sheth, neither of whom have such gaping flaws in their play.
SaSe - #10 is probably a good placement actually, but he could edge up a few spots. His control is among the best in the world, and he's one of the smartest and most dedicated players in the game, which tells me that he's not going to lose his form any time soon.
Sheth - Actually had the second best record for TL in all the recent teamleagues; better than Ret and Zenio, and only behind HerO. It wasn't just the all-kill. Move Sheth to Nerchio's spot, put Nerchio in DIMAGA's spot, and move DIMAGA to Sheth's current spot. Sheth is playing better than IdrA at the moment too. All his match-ups are good, he doesn't have one really bad MU.
Brat.Ok - Many people who watch what little we get to see of him alway say he's the most underrated player, yet he never achieves results that would in any way validate this. So whenever he plays, I pay special attention to him, because I keep believing that he's got this top gear that's going to blow me away. I've never seen it. He's good, but man, he's not that great.
Hasu - I just can't stand Hasu or DarKFoRcE. They're so similar to me; two players with one super safety style that's remained identical forever. And yeah, it works for them, but I tend to appreciate players with potential to win things more than players who tread water at a high-ish level. I'll be stunned if either of these two win a large tournament. They're the ideal players for group stages, but they're just never ever going to win something unless they become more dynamic.
ClouD - Of course I know who ClouD is, I hung out with him and Lip at Dreamhack! He's the cookie monster toss! But he's not in the top 30 players at the moment. He's pretty solid, and he can play some really good games, but I don't think he's so amazing. All of the players I mentioned as ones you left out are players that should beat ClouD handily.
Strelok - So disappointing lately, and I have nothing against the guy. Still unsieges all his tanks at once. Hasn't looked so good in months. Again, everyone I mentioned as players you should've included; they could all beat Strelok.
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Personally, I'd rank Feast and Demu higher up, they've been doing pretty well recently.
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Are you DiaBoLuS on eu ladder KalWarkov? if you are then props to you sir, you have a lot of knowledge about the sc2 scene while you play the game at a pretty high level yourself
@tree.hugger i personally disagree about sheth being higher than dimaga, but maybe thats because i follow dimaga more than sheth and dimaga is a more established progamer imo. i agree with your opinion on cloud tho.
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On March 19 2012 01:08 Kaitokid wrote:
Are you DiaBoLuS on eu ladder KalWarkov? if you are then props to you sir, you have a lot of knowledge about the sc2 scene while you play the game at a pretty high level yourself
@tree.hugger i personally disagree about sheth being higher than dimaga, but maybe thats because i follow dimaga more than sheth and dimaga is a more established progamer imo. i agree with your opinion on cloud tho.
no im not.
seems like i overrated select a bit :/
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United States839 Posts
Morrow is incredibly underrated. I think hes better than IdrA at the moment and in the top 10.
Love watching Jinro, big fan, however I don't think people realize how far he's fallen off the map.
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France12770 Posts
On March 18 2012 00:34 Nibbler89 wrote:
Is this based on actual skill or on odds of being able to win a tournament.
If it's on tournament win odds(assuming koreans are playing) I'd take out jinro, happy, stelok, cloud, kas and replace with
elfi,bling,haypro, major, kiwikaki.
for 15 protoss, 10 zerg and 5 terran, which is more accurate and reflective of foreigner success I think. If it's based on actual skill I'd probably take out bunch of the protoss put back terran, along with illusion, kawaii, dde, qxc, naama. Since they practice on korea and are actually good not just because P seems to "suit" foreigners much better.
If it was a tournament with no Koreans also the terrans odds would go up.
Lol if it's a ranking on odds of being able to win a tournament with koreans in it, there is only room for Stephano, NaNiwa and Huk (but imo only Stephano & NaNiwa, arguable though :D) edit2 : + ThorZain but he is terran so not sure lol.
I think it's tree.hugger who had more or less the same opinion as me, with your list in spoiler and green color for underrated / red for overrated players so I won't repeat what he said.
edit : oh and currently for the players being able to win a tourney, because A LOT of other foreigners will be eligible for that list soon, SaSe, ToD, maybe Major, but not yet.
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Mostly good, but I have a few problems with that top30. I'd say mainly I think Ret is overrated by a fair margin, and I don't know about Jinro given that I haven't seen him anywhere lately. Also SeleCT, although I'm a big fan, has been low profile lately.
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On March 19 2012 04:34 Djzapz wrote:
Mostly good, but I have a few problems with that top30. I'd say mainly I think Ret is overrated by a fair margin, and I don't know about Jinro given that I haven't seen him anywhere lately. Also SeleCT, although I'm a big fan, has been low profile lately.
ye i know, but i didnt know who to put at 4. 1-3 were very clear to me, but there is no1 who stands out for the 4th spot.
and ye, select didnt show what i expected him to show at all, kind of sad.
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I can definitely agree with top 3. Not necessarily in that order, but I'm not opposed to it. Good work =)
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United States8476 Posts
Sen should be on there imo, because he plays in a lot of foreigner tournies. Bratok way too high. Cloud doesn't belong. Jinro doesn't belong. Others I agree with +-3
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Honestly, where is SENNN. He should honestly be top 5 imo
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dont know where your anti-cloud comes from oO better go watch his results and compare it to the others around him.
i explained why sen and xigua arent on the list!
i think ret justified his 4th position today btw
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No Stephano, no Naniwa, no Ret, no Thorzain, no DeMusliM ...etc. Not a single player of this list is a top foreigner, sorry but you missed the point.
Your list would maybe be accurate 2 years ago.
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On March 19 2012 20:54 LunaSea wrote:
No Stephano, no Naniwa, no Ret, no Thorzain, no DeMusliM ...etc. Not a single player of this list is a top foreigner, sorry but you missed the point.
Your list would maybe be accurate 2 years ago.
LOL WOOT
sry but this is the dumbest comment ive ever read on TL :D
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On March 19 2012 20:54 LunaSea wrote:
No Stephano, no Naniwa, no Ret, no Thorzain, no DeMusliM ...etc. Not a single player of this list is a top foreigner, sorry but you missed the point.
Your list would maybe be accurate 2 years ago.
Not sure if dumb, or troll.
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Fraer a surprise 2rd place for now and while from the big names he has beaten only Strelok and Nerchio he is 7:0 against them recently. More testing is needed though but may be another surprise newcomer protoss like Feast
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Select would get crushed by the 5-10 people below him in a bo5. As would Idra
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TLO
elfi 
MajOr
