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or a VOD.
I just had an argument with my EU clan mate over Hellions in TvP.
My point is to instead of using the factory to scout, placing it next to a reactor and pump Hellions that can be used to kite Zealots. I don't mean to really sacrifice numbers of Marines and Marauders but do them as a support unit.
I think that zeals are problematic for terrans, especially in late game and with too many marauders on T side. I don't understand why Terrans don't try to experiment with Hellions as a support unit for main MMMGV force.
Zeals on charge are as fast as Hellions which means they can be kited forever!
It takes 12 Hellion shots to kill a line of zeals and 9 with pre igniter researched.
My request is for you to find me a sc2 replay or VOD of pro players with Hellions used but not a mech play and not with just Hellion drops.
We need to see Hellions used on the field, kiteing zeals with success.
 
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because colsi have 9 range and most likely 99% of protoss's will get colsi in their army composition. With a hellion range of 5, you can't do much to pick off the zealots unless you catch him severely off guard, which is not a factor that you can control
They also eat up in supply later on. Having simply 10 hellions is 20 supply that you are committing to which is another very important thing to consider
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Sadly, hellions get ripped to shreds by collossi or stalkers.
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So if this VoD is found you get a beer, but what do we get?
Why not just go into YABOT and show this to him if you believe it is true?
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On March 13 2012 06:49 Br3ezy wrote:
because colsi have 9 range and most likely 99% of protoss's will get colsi in their army composition. With a hellion range of 5, you can't do much to pick off the zealots unless you catch him severely off guard, which is not a factor that you can control
They also eat up in supply later on. Having simply 10 hellions is 20 supply that you are committing to which is another very important thing to consider
Yeah but when you engage you kite stuff anyways so why not add Hellions to your mix? There are also times when Vikings kill all of the Colossi and Protoss switches to pure HTs for some time.
Its easy to sacrifice the hellions for the supply after they get their shit done, not every game is a slugfest with no engagements until 200 supply.
On March 13 2012 06:50 Xiron wrote:
Sadly, hellions get ripped to shreds by collossi or stalkers.
Protoss wants to have his zeals in front, so what that Hellions lose to Stalkers if Stalkers lose really badly to bio?
What's more there is always gonna be some small hole where zeals will leak to engage and die 1 by 1 which is also good for terran.
On March 13 2012 06:50 TheToast wrote:
So if this VoD is found you get a beer, but what do we get?
Why not just go into YABOT and show this to him if you believe it is true?
You get my thanks ^^ I don't know what I can give you, beer is for 50-90 cents in Poland.
We played a game but sadly my offracing is bad (I'm a Z user) so I lost and later he decided to be a stubborn faggot and just kill me instead of letting me show him how much zeals I can kill with Hellions.
BTW YABOT is something about unit testing right?
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Watch old dde replays he used that strat and failed vs decent protosses by decent i mean KRs 
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It is a bit tricky to integrate hellions into TvP. Because hellions get their upgrades separate from the bio, you will need to also spend additional resources on mech upgrades or end up with relatively weak units. Furthermore, it is very important in TvP to upgrade air weapons, so that vikings can take down collosus as fast as possible before they deal too much damage. Therefore, hellion upgrades would require an additional armory or delay the crucial air weapons upgrade.
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On March 13 2012 07:04 Severus_ wrote:Watch old dde replays he used that strat and failed vs decent protosses by decent i mean KRs
I need games where terran wins.
On March 13 2012 07:04 Bagration wrote:
It is a bit tricky to integrate hellions into TvP. Because hellions get their upgrades separate from the bio, you will need to also spend additional resources on mech upgrades or end up with relatively weak units. Furthermore, it is very important in TvP to upgrade air weapons, so that vikings can take down collosus as fast as possible before they deal too much damage. Therefore, hellion upgrades would require an additional armory or delay the crucial air weapons upgrade.
Let's calculate: Hellions deal 8 + 6 = 14 damage and 14 + 5 = 19 damage with pre igniter.
That's 12 or 9 Hellions shots with 0 0 upgrades on both sides;
13 or 9 shots vs 1 armor zeals;
14 or 10 shots vs 2 armor zeals;
14 or 11 shots vs 3 armor zeals.
In light of this I think it is unecessary to upgrade Hellions at all since they can't be touched by zeals.
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They just dont seem worth it, but im sure you can find a rep.
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Hellions vs toss. First thing that comes to mind is Jinro vs MC in gsl. But that was straight up mech so it "doesn't count" for some reason. But I'm also half remembering some bizarre 111 thing with marine hellion banshee but I really forgot who did that.
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Whitera played some random EU terran who supplemented his standard ground force with blue flame hellions to help with mass chargelots and won at some point. I'll see if I can find the replay and edit it in.
Edit: Spent about 20 minutes looking for it and couldn't find it, it's probably in one of his replay packs but I'm not going to look through hundreds of games to get you a beer. Sorry dude 
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You also have a problem when hellions' firing rate is much slower than that of marines or marauders... have fun kiting with two control groups of units separately, when most top NA players can't even micro solely bio optimally. As for replays... had a practice partner try this twice against me, didn't work out so well... sorry!
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On March 13 2012 07:30 Ixtlilton wrote:
Whitera played some random EU terran who supplemented his standard ground force with blue flame hellions to help with mass chargelots and won at some point. I'll see if I can find the replay and edit it in.
Thanks in advance man!! ^___^
On March 13 2012 07:32 whistle wrote:
You also have a problem when hellions' firing rate is much slower than that of marines or marauders... have fun kiting with two control groups of units separately, when most top NA players can't even micro solely bio optimally. As for replays... had a practice partner try this twice against me, didn't work out so well... sorry!
I'm not sure if 2 control groups are needed, marines and marauders shoot instantly, don't have to stay still for a second like hellions so they could be all in 1 group. Question is wheter Hellions should be in front, on the back or next to the bio?
I'm thinking they should be next to it, that way they would shoot at zeals while those are in lines or a group.
At the same time Hellions wouldn't draw majority of fire when in front and would use more of the splash than while in the back.
I also need replays of pros 
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Hellions are what you would describe as absolutely fucking useless in TvP.
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On March 13 2012 07:51 Eiaco wrote:
Hellions are what you would describe as absolutely fucking useless in TvP.
If you are close minded than sure. I sometimes hate the metagame because it absofuckinglutely closes minds of players.
It took a 60 shields buff for people to start using warp prism and they are STILL not being hit by anything that hits air.
People don't add roaches to banelings so marine splitting would be useless in ZvT. I'm sure there is more examples.
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They're completely trash used with bio.
If you want them in one control group as you say, the hellions will never fire.
They can be okay as harass units but for killing chargelots, they just do not do it fast enough.
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wasnt the whole point of the HOTS change to hellions (they morph into some transformer looking thing) because they suck ass against zealot/archon mixes?
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On March 13 2012 07:59 JonnyLaw wrote:
They're completely trash used with bio.
If you want them in one control group as you say, the hellions will never fire.
They can be okay as harass units but for killing chargelots, they just do not do it fast enough.
Wait I don't get your post. What do you mean by they will never fire? They are a kiting unit so I guess you are thinking in terms of a move and wait for the outcome. You dont stand still with bio, why would you with Hellions?
On March 13 2012 08:25 dAPhREAk wrote:
wasnt the whole point of the HOTS change to hellions (they morph into some transformer looking thing) because they suck ass against zealot/archon mixes?
Blizzard has shown in their video something like 5 Hellions being chased by 20 zeals and archons iirc. They weren't even kited that well. The change is for noobs who cant kite well. I guess it's going to be usefull if there is no room to kite.
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I know a former GM (currently very high masters) player that goes bf helions to support his bio army vs protoss. He's beaten pros on ladder.. so does that count?
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On March 13 2012 08:35 .Sic. wrote:
I know a former GM (currently very high masters) player that goes bf helions to support his bio army vs protoss. He's beaten pros on ladder.. so does that count?
Sure it does if you can get some replays from him it would be the best if it was against someone well known.
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Socke vs dde Shoutcraft final @metapolis
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A beer!? A whole beer? Alright. I can help. I have what you're looking for- but if you want it, you gotta scratch papa's back first. I don't ask much: we'll call it a 40-60 split. Yeah- I want 40% of the beer.
"How am I gonna send 40% of a beer to you?" you're probably asking. "Easy" I say. Luckily my preferred method of alcohol consumption is rectal-tampon. Once I've seen the goods, I'll send you the rep, then you can seal those badboys in a ziplock and get them overnight to Montreal.
So this is where we stand. I can't help you unless I get a cut. Upload a picture of the beer soaked tampons (40% of a beer should be about 5), and we'll talk from there.
Not that I'm picky, but I prefer tampex.
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Hellions are very difficult to control alongside a MMM bio ball. I've tried it as well, granted not at a meaningfully high level. The big issue is that they just handle very clumsily alongside your bio units. They're also extremely weak to colossi, especially since medivacs can't heal them.
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There are reactor hellion openings too, but you usually switch the factory off with your rax after like 4 hellions.
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On March 13 2012 07:51 Eiaco wrote:
Hellions are what you would describe as absolutely fucking useless in TvP.
It is logic like this that prevents people from innovation. Don't ever say anything is useless or bad just because people don't use it, I mean I remember when people didn't use motherships at all and now they are the ultimate end game in PvZ/PvP. I guess something similar would be how terrans never went ghost against zerg until a few months ago, but that ended up getting nerfed T_T.
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On March 13 2012 06:49 Br3ezy wrote:
because colsi have 9 range and most likely 99% of protoss's will get colsi in their army composition. With a hellion range of 5, you can't do much to pick off the zealots unless you catch him severely off guard, which is not a factor that you can control
well they certainly dont die to colossi as fast as marines...
On March 13 2012 10:12 Yamulo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 07:51 Eiaco wrote:
Hellions are what you would describe as absolutely fucking useless in TvP. It is logic like this that prevents people from innovation. Don't ever say anything is useless or bad just because people don't use it, I mean I remember when people didn't use motherships at all and now they are the ultimate end game in PvZ/PvP. I guess something similar would be how terrans never went ghost against zerg until a few months ago, but that ended up getting nerfed T_T.
Well using mothership in PvZ was very risky with the old NP range. But overall I still agree with you.
All I know for sure is that hellions were definitely underused in PvT before the blue flame nerf... they killed zealots so ridiculously fucking fast it was just sad.
@OP I just know that TLO had a hellion + bio opening as his standard opening that he went for every TvP before he switched to Zerg. And I remember some Jinro games where he did some hellion play but I only remember his first attack, not sure about late game.
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On March 13 2012 08:25 dAPhREAk wrote:
wasnt the whole point of the HOTS change to hellions (they morph into some transformer looking thing) because they suck ass against zealot/archon mixes?
I think the reason was that people dont like kiting. This way terran can be lazy like protoss.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
Would you consider Warden to be a pro? He made extensive use of blue flame hellions in a terran bio mech army iirc.
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Your friend is right - if helions can be used in the way you suggested, then we would be seeing it in pro play.
ONE replay of helions kiting zealots doesn't prove anything - it's more than likely there were many failures behind it.
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There are many problems with hellions in TvP in the way that you suggested. Zealot charge will just destroy hellions their dps is too low and it takes to many of them to actually be effective its more efficient to get more MMM. Hellions wont benefit from bio upgrades and zealots are too spread out after charging to be used as a support unit.
They're good for sniping units that are out of position such as templar and sentries but ghosts can do this as well its just not worth the minerals. Also good for mineral line harass but good players will be able to defend it quite easily.
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Speak of the devil, Jinro is on stream right now with mmm+hellions. Winning vs Masters Korean tosses.
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Speak of the devil, MKP just won with a match with reactor hellions against CreatorPrime. There you go
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Does goody still do mech vs P? im sure he makes helions vs p.
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On March 13 2012 08:46 dragonborn wrote:
Socke vs dde Shoutcraft final @metapolis
Thank you! And it looks like it's not just that game, I have to watch the whole series ^_____^
On March 13 2012 08:50 Lexpar wrote:
A beer!? A whole beer? Alright. I can help. I have what you're looking for- but if you want it, you gotta scratch papa's back first. I don't ask much: we'll call it a 40-60 split. Yeah- I want 40% of the beer.
"How am I gonna send 40% of a beer to you?" you're probably asking. "Easy" I say. Luckily my preferred method of alcohol consumption is rectal-tampon. Once I've seen the goods, I'll send you the rep, then you can seal those badboys in a ziplock and get them overnight to Montreal.
So this is where we stand. I can't help you unless I get a cut. Upload a picture of the beer soaked tampons (40% of a beer should be about 5), and we'll talk from there.
Not that I'm picky, but I prefer tampex.
hahahahahahahh I tried to google "wet tampon" but I couldn't find anything except one soaked in blood x(
I guess we won't be able to trade
On March 13 2012 09:09 PH wrote:
Hellions are very difficult to control alongside a MMM bio ball. I've tried it as well, granted not at a meaningfully high level. The big issue is that they just handle very clumsily alongside your bio units. They're also extremely weak to colossi, especially since medivacs can't heal them.
There has to be a way to position them properly and the more I think about it the more I'm getting convinced that terran should aim more for late game than mid game to use hellions. As the game progresses there is more zeals in the mix and high chance of killing all colossi with vikings.
On March 13 2012 10:12 Yamulo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 07:51 Eiaco wrote:
Hellions are what you would describe as absolutely fucking useless in TvP. It is logic like this that prevents people from innovation. Don't ever say anything is useless or bad just because people don't use it, I mean I remember when people didn't use motherships at all and now they are the ultimate end game in PvZ/PvP. I guess something similar would be how terrans never went ghost against zerg until a few months ago, but that ended up getting nerfed T_T.
That's exactly my point, thank you for posting ^_____^
On March 13 2012 10:30 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:49 Br3ezy wrote:
because colsi have 9 range and most likely 99% of protoss's will get colsi in their army composition. With a hellion range of 5, you can't do much to pick off the zealots unless you catch him severely off guard, which is not a factor that you can control
well they certainly dont die to colossi as fast as marines... Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 10:12 Yamulo wrote:On March 13 2012 07:51 Eiaco wrote:
Hellions are what you would describe as absolutely fucking useless in TvP. It is logic like this that prevents people from innovation. Don't ever say anything is useless or bad just because people don't use it, I mean I remember when people didn't use motherships at all and now they are the ultimate end game in PvZ/PvP. I guess something similar would be how terrans never went ghost against zerg until a few months ago, but that ended up getting nerfed T_T. Well using mothership in PvZ was very risky with the old NP range. But overall I still agree with you. All I know for sure is that hellions were definitely underused in PvT before the blue flame nerf... they killed zealots so ridiculously fucking fast it was just sad. @OP I just know that TLO had a hellion + bio opening as his standard opening that he went for every TvP before he switched to Zerg. And I remember some Jinro games where he did some hellion play but I only remember his first attack, not sure about late game.
Thank you.
On March 13 2012 11:29 Blazinghand wrote:
Would you consider Warden to be a pro? He made extensive use of blue flame hellions in a terran bio mech army iirc.
I don't know him but if he has games against more well known pros than I could use his games
On March 13 2012 13:20 celious wrote:
There are many problems with hellions in TvP in the way that you suggested. Zealot charge will just destroy hellions their dps is too low and it takes to many of them to actually be effective its more efficient to get more MMM. Hellions wont benefit from bio upgrades and zealots are too spread out after charging to be used as a support unit.
They're good for sniping units that are out of position such as templar and sentries but ghosts can do this as well its just not worth the minerals. Also good for mineral line harass but good players will be able to defend it quite easily.
The idea is you kite with Hellions, charging zeals are as fast as moving hellions which means they cant even touch hellions because they run out of charge. Yes zeals are spread out after charging and that's the another reason to kite because you force them to move in a line or a group. I already did calculation involving upgrades and I don't see much difference between 12 to 14 hellions shots to kill a bunch of zeals or 9 to 11 shots with pre igniter. Upgrades don't matter so much.
On March 13 2012 13:24 Luepert wrote:
Speak of the devil, Jinro is on stream right now with mmm+hellions. Winning vs Masters Korean tosses.
Shit my fucking internet died so I couldn't see it T_______T fml. Is he recording his games?
On March 13 2012 13:36 FinestHour wrote:Speak of the devil, MKP just won with a match with reactor hellions against CreatorPrime. There you go
Damn can I see the game somewhere O_O?
On March 13 2012 14:51 OrangeSoda wrote:
Does goody still do mech vs P? im sure he makes helions vs p.
I read or heard somewhere he stopped going mech vs Protoss. And mech games is not what I'm looking for :/ I need standard MMMGV composition games but with Hellions.
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On March 13 2012 06:58 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:49 Br3ezy wrote:
because colsi have 9 range and most likely 99% of protoss's will get colsi in their army composition. With a hellion range of 5, you can't do much to pick off the zealots unless you catch him severely off guard, which is not a factor that you can control
They also eat up in supply later on. Having simply 10 hellions is 20 supply that you are committing to which is another very important thing to consider Yeah but when you engage you kite stuff anyways so why not add Hellions to your mix? There are also times when Vikings kill all of the Colossi and Protoss switches to pure HTs for some time. Its easy to sacrifice the hellions for the supply after they get their shit done, not every game is a slugfest with no engagements until 200 supply. Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:50 Xiron wrote:
Sadly, hellions get ripped to shreds by collossi or stalkers. Protoss wants to have his zeals in front, so what that Hellions lose to Stalkers if Stalkers lose really badly to bio? What's more there is always gonna be some small hole where zeals will leak to engage and die 1 by 1 which is also good for terran. Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:50 TheToast wrote:
So if this VoD is found you get a beer, but what do we get?
Why not just go into YABOT and show this to him if you believe it is true? You get my thanks ^^ I don't know what I can give you, beer is for 50-90 cents in Poland. We played a game but sadly my offracing is bad (I'm a Z user) so I lost and later he decided to be a stubborn faggot and just kill me instead of letting me show him how much zeals I can kill with Hellions. BTW YABOT is something about unit testing right?
Go try it yourself, hellions are useless. 2 marines>>>>>>>>1 hellion. Hellions get raped by everything, especially chargelots.
It is logic like this that prevents people from innovation. Don't ever say anything is useless or bad just because people don't use it, I mean I remember when people didn't use motherships at all and now they are the ultimate end game in PvZ/PvP. I guess something similar would be how terrans never went ghost against zerg until a few months ago, but that ended up getting nerfed T_T.
It is logic like this that assumes it hasn't been tried already by Terrans. I know I have, and whilst it is effective in a way, marines/marauders are just better. THe problem is in a straight up fight when you can't kite, hellions are practically useless, they are also too flimsy and take too much damage during kiting.
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lol hey it's my birthday
On March 14 2012 00:15 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 06:58 beetlelisk wrote:On March 13 2012 06:49 Br3ezy wrote:
because colsi have 9 range and most likely 99% of protoss's will get colsi in their army composition. With a hellion range of 5, you can't do much to pick off the zealots unless you catch him severely off guard, which is not a factor that you can control
They also eat up in supply later on. Having simply 10 hellions is 20 supply that you are committing to which is another very important thing to consider Yeah but when you engage you kite stuff anyways so why not add Hellions to your mix? There are also times when Vikings kill all of the Colossi and Protoss switches to pure HTs for some time. Its easy to sacrifice the hellions for the supply after they get their shit done, not every game is a slugfest with no engagements until 200 supply. On March 13 2012 06:50 Xiron wrote:
Sadly, hellions get ripped to shreds by collossi or stalkers. Protoss wants to have his zeals in front, so what that Hellions lose to Stalkers if Stalkers lose really badly to bio? What's more there is always gonna be some small hole where zeals will leak to engage and die 1 by 1 which is also good for terran. On March 13 2012 06:50 TheToast wrote:
So if this VoD is found you get a beer, but what do we get?
Why not just go into YABOT and show this to him if you believe it is true? You get my thanks ^^ I don't know what I can give you, beer is for 50-90 cents in Poland. We played a game but sadly my offracing is bad (I'm a Z user) so I lost and later he decided to be a stubborn faggot and just kill me instead of letting me show him how much zeals I can kill with Hellions. BTW YABOT is something about unit testing right? Go try it yourself, hellions are useless. 2 marines>>>>>>>>1 hellion. Hellions get raped by everything, especially chargelots. Show nested quote +It is logic like this that prevents people from innovation. Don't ever say anything is useless or bad just because people don't use it, I mean I remember when people didn't use motherships at all and now they are the ultimate end game in PvZ/PvP. I guess something similar would be how terrans never went ghost against zerg until a few months ago, but that ended up getting nerfed T_T. It is logic like this that assumes it hasn't been tried already by Terrans. I know I have, and whilst it is effective in a way, marines/marauders are just better. THe problem is in a straight up fight when you can't kite, hellions are practically useless, they are also too flimsy and take too much damage during kiting.
LOL I did try it myslef and Hellions absolutely rape chargelots in much fewer numbers. I don't understand where are people who don't want to kite coming from. You are doing Protoss a favor and not kiteing with your bio too?
What's up with that logic?
2 people that posted before you just said they saw what I'm talking about on a pro streams and Terrans WON.
This means it hasn't been tried until now. Metagame baby, blindly do the strats with no second thought.
Hellions don't take ANY damage during kiteing.
edit: correction: charging zeals can lay exactly one hit on escaping hellions.
I just tried 86 3/3/3 zeals vs 26 0/0 blue flame hellions and 1 zeal survived. This means Hellions easily kill Zealots in 1 to 3 ratio.
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EPT
