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On February 06 2012 09:03 Ixtlilton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 07:40 GeNeSiDe wrote:
I did find this whole blog funny and you are a good writer but damn, people making fun of people with less skill in this game is not really cool at all.
I can imagine the guy who threatened to sue you is probably quite upset seeing you posted that here, I dont get why you would actually consider this "delving" into anything, you are not studying anything, you are just playing a bunch of terrible players at a game I can only imagine they are 1. terrible at and 2. really dont care about playing better. If we were talking about a mindless game like CoD that is entirely based on reflexes and visiual perception skills I could understand your shock but your talking about a game that challenges players with different scenarios on a game-by-game basis, with a tech tree which is not immediately accessible and a counter-based combat system which is not linear in any way and is highly susceptible to differences in macro and situational micro. To be good at starcraft at even the lowest level you need to have access to a decent computer, an accurate laser mouse as well as being a touch-typer and agile with a mouse.
I know people who were interested in this game when I showed them to it but gave it up because their typing skills meant macro was very difficult for them, whereas for myself and other RTS vets the only thing to learn about macro is which hotkeys and when, and although they could watch me play for hours and understand the metagame as I explained to them, they simply could not keep up with the speed/timing necessary to execute a simple build order and would therefore resort to these kinds of builds you describe, going random hydra roach, mass defence for no reason, stupid decisions. Their difficulty in a-moving in the 3-4 seconds from ramp to mineral line could very well be impossible for these people at their level of expertise/equipment, we should be praising our casual gamers rather than vilifying them, even the lowest of the low who will quit and never look back, because amongst these newbies are inevitable gems and new gamers who could very well form the cornerstone of the TL community in coming years.
If we peel back the well placed puns and witty comments, all we have is the E-version of a schoolyard bully who couldn't even push platinum so decided that instead of being humiliated by players of his own skill level he would attempt to humiliate those who lacked the resources to fight back in a proper effective manner.
I feel for our world not because of the people you have encountered and their obviously anger and embarassment driven BM, but moreso for the fact that this is actually a featured post on TL's homepage and thousands of my fellow posters feed you the fuel to keep it going. Time to peel back the curtains, lose some weight and realize that being a troll in a basement behind the cover of anonymity is not what you should be doing with your obvious talent and drive to write, and by the fact that after reading your blog I can deduce you are not a complete moron but a misguided soul.
I would agree for the most part if he were doing some 10 minute 3 rax all in that would never work if the opponent had been doing any real build, or if he'd been going 1 base battlecruiser or something along those lines. But no, he was worker rushing. When I was 10 I played the original Starcraft against the AI, would mass cannons and go carriers off one base with hunt and peck typing abilities and no game understanding whatsoever. My 10 year old self would never have lost to a worker rush. I am truly sorry, but if you can't find a, click, and sit back within 4 seconds then you should not be playing video games. Admittedly he has bm'd his fair amount, but has expressed remorse over this, and I did prefer the sort of primordial force feel to worker rushing and observing the reactions. He also explained to anyone who asked how to hold off his rush and for the most part only said something if they spoke first. You do not need to be a touch typist or be particularly agile with your mouse to play this game better than 50% of the population. I know people who have, with 30 apm, overly safe builds, almost no multitasking ability, poor micro, and extremely outdated unit compositions stayed in gold just by playing ~10 games per season. I am of the firm belief that anyone can do this with minimal previous rts experience and practice. This is not a case of someone being amazed that 90% of the gaming population cannot hold a properly executed 4 gate rush. This is not someone going 1/1/1 every game. This isn't even Dragon getting to masters on multiple accounts doing strategies that everyone knows should never work. This is someone worker rushing and writing an obviously satirical blog of his experiences and incredulity caused by worker rushing every game, or turtling and seeing how long it takes them to kill him. This is a case study of the worst players, what their mentality is, and how their mind works in an in-game situation. I recommend you and the people who agree with your post take a close look at the people you're actually defending, what the OP has done to them in reality. The only ones you can really say were hurt in all of this are the try-hards. Those poor, poor try-hards.
The attitudes expressed in your post are exactly the problems we should be trying to weed out in TL and SC communities in general, is the upmanship, better than thou ness. The whole premise of this thread presented in "nuts and bolts" can be disregarded by the simple fact that we take for granted constant SCV production, because the first thing we ever learn about playing SC is "build workers constantly". Your taking things for granted like bronze players knowing the correct reaction to something, I don't care if its a 4gate or worker rush, having to decide "can I kill this blob of workers with my workers" is not something a fairly unskilled and inexperienced player is going to necessarily react to properly in the few seconds he has.
All the posts defending Gheed seem to assume that Starcraft knowledge is akin to common sense, how can you have the gall to suggest that these noobs exist in a seperate plane of reality where you have to apply anti-logic to sink that low? 8 workers beating 7 because it takes the attacking SCV's 30 seconds base-to-base is not written in the manual, its not in the tutorial. Check this post :http://sc2armory.com/forums/topic/20985
Is this player an idiot because he had to question why he was losing to this particular strat? Is he in a moron? No more than the hundreds of thread on this forum asking how to counter other strategies. You dont know, you either find out through working it for yourself by experience. Take for instance the 600 game player who lost twice to the rush. The sheer amount of games suggest that he has a 1 IQ if he cant beat a worker rush but you cant determine how seriously he takes the game, you know? Making judgements on people's intelligence based on their reaction to 1 specific uncommon scenario in a game they are not even that good at is ludicrous. Check out this thread
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/628257139
Did you ever think that the player has lost several times to worker rush and could be doing things like this incorrectly assuming that things like focus fire and worker micro are helping rather than hurting?
You mention people you know with 30 APM and overly safe builds and that they can reach and maintain gold with "MINIMAL EXPERIENCE OR PRACTICE". Just the fact that you used the word practice invalides that point of your argument because being in bronze suggests you have no practice or experience! I was lucky to have an older cousin who played BW at a B, B- level to keep me on the right track and despite playing BW as a kid and WC3 for years I still had to do my stretch in bronze back in beta, losing to things like mass void rays, cannon rush as zerg, and yes, a few worker rushes. Most bronze noobies will not have this kind of helping hand, or simply want to play the game for fun, building units they think will be cool at a snail's pace and moving out at 20 minutes with a 0-0 max on 1 base. Not everyone is sitting at their computers with their mind-right face on getting ready to steal some nerd's ladder point, those of us here who play with this attitude are definately a minority(although I dont doubt that there are lower league players who play to win, but I mean diamond+ players who take the time to find kinks in their game and will not blink throughout a game). For all you know these "moronic noobs" are 10 year old kids whose mom's just bought them this game because they like aliens and have no idea that there are build orders.
The harm in this thread is not to Gheed's countless victims, as I'm sure many of them don't give a rats ass.
The real harm is the fact there are thousands of people enjoying seeing lower level players be victimized by a player admittedly 3-4 leagues above theirs, a self-admitted troller and BMer, and we act like its god's divine will that should allow us to humiliate our fellow man on OUR fourm because there are so few bronze leaguers here. Well why do you think that is? Probably because this kind of bigoted attitude. Who the **** are you to tell people they shouldn't be playing video games because they dont meet YOUR requirements and standards? Guess what, they meet the only requirements that matter, they paid for the game and were willing to put the time in; it was good enough for Blizzard, it's good enough or me and it damn well should be good enough for you.
The snobby comments like "look who you are defending" remind me of the kind of things you read about in history books about the oppression of minorities across the world. Good job carrying on one of the most disgusting traditions to grace human history.
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And those are not personal insults at Gheed but 1. merely my opinion on what his actions say of his character and 2. something he wrote in part 2 or three of his blog(i just read them all tonight, it all gets kind of muddy).
If he can throw stones at bronzes he should be able to take them I would imagine.
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
Some of the posts in this thread make my heard hurt almost as much as the behaviour described in the OP. Take this one, for example:
On February 06 2012 07:40 GeNeSiDe wrote:
I can imagine the guy who threatened to sue you is probably quite upset seeing you posted that here, I dont get why you would actually consider this "delving" into anything, you are not studying anything, you are just playing a bunch of terrible players at a game I can only imagine they are 1. terrible at and 2. really dont care about playing better. If we were talking about a mindless game like CoD that is entirely based on reflexes and visiual perception skills I could understand your shock but your talking about a game that challenges players with different scenarios on a game-by-game basis, with a tech tree which is not immediately accessible and a counter-based combat system which is not linear in any way and is highly susceptible to differences in macro and situational micro. To be good at starcraft at even the lowest level you need to have access to a decent computer, an accurate laser mouse as well as being a touch-typer and agile with a mouse.
Yeah, you definitely have to master your race's tech tree and know proper unit counters to stop a worker rush. But that's not enough! You also have to have a top-of-the-line system and be a maestro with the mouse.
I know people who were interested in this game when I showed them to it but gave it up because their typing skills meant macro was very difficult for them, whereas for myself and other RTS vets the only thing to learn about macro is which hotkeys and when, and although they could watch me play for hours and understand the metagame as I explained to them, they simply could not keep up with the speed/timing necessary to execute a simple build order and would therefore resort to these kinds of builds you describe, going random hydra roach, mass defence for no reason, stupid decisions.
You know people who mass roach/hydra because they're not good at typing?
Their difficulty in a-moving in the 3-4 seconds from ramp to mineral line could very well be impossible for these people at their level of expertise/equipment, we should be praising our casual gamers rather than vilifying them, even the lowest of the low who will quit and never look back, because amongst these newbies are inevitable gems and new gamers who could very well form the cornerstone of the TL community in coming years.
No one is "vilifying" casual gamers. First of all, nothing about playing the game casually impels one to blame a loss to a worker rush on racial imbalance. But beyond that, appreciating the comedic value of someone losing in ridiculous or farcical fashion does not constitute "vilifying" them in any meaningful sense of the world. Even professional players lose in ridiculous fashion on occasion, and in finding those outcomes humorous we in no way cast them as some kind of villains to be reviled.
If we peel back the well placed puns and witty comments, all we have is the E-version of a schoolyard bully who couldn't even push platinum so decided that instead of being humiliated by players of his own skill level he would attempt to humiliate those who lacked the resources to fight back in a proper effective manner.
What resources, exactly, do they lack? They seem to me to be fully equipped to defend against the OP's play, aside, perhaps, from the basic knowledge of how to defend a worker rush: a resource that the OP appears happy--even eager--to provide them with. Moreover, how is playing at a bronze level against bronze opponents bullying them? If they weren't playing him, they'd be playing each other and losing in similar fashion.
But speaking of delving a little deeper, let's examine the assumptions that underlie this misplaced moral outrage, shall we? If the OP would have otherwise been "humiliated" by players of his own skill level, and bronze players are "humiliated" when they lose to bronze-level play, then apparently everyone's Starcraft 2 experience consists largely of being humiliated. Far from "praising our casual gamers" your attitude seems to suggest that if you're not the best player in the world, it's some kind of deep, dark secret that you should be profoundly embarrassed about.
Far from that being the case, however, for someone who genuinely plays the game casually--who truly doesn't "care about playing better"--there is no humiliation in defeat. Just who exactly, pray tell, do you propose these people are, who do not care about playing better, yet are humiliated when it is pointed out that they play poorly? That's incoherent nonsense. Either they do care about getting better, in which case their embarrassing defeat is merely the typical kind of frustrating learning experience that's part-and-parcel of getting better at a game like Starcraft 2, or they really don't care about getting better, in which case they can't be especially embarrassed about their present level of skill.
Time to peel back the curtains, lose some weight and realize that being a troll in a basement
So much for the moral high ground. What were you saying about the "E-version of a schoolyard bully," again?
Good grief.
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You should sue him, people that victimize others more stupid than the common denominator in hilarious, attention-seeking blogs are human scum! I know people in the U.N if you need more help.
On February 06 2012 10:18 GeNeSiDe wrote:
Good job carrying on one of the most disgusting traditions to grace human history.
Oh the irony of this comment coming from someone named GeNeSiDe, the "o" version was taken?
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On February 06 2012 10:18 GeNeSiDe wrote:
The attitudes expressed in your post are exactly the problems we should be trying to weed out in TL and SC communities in general, is the upmanship, better than thou ness.
Upmanship is exactly how competitive communities thrive.
All the posts defending Gheed seem to assume that Starcraft knowledge is akin to common sense, how can you have the gall to suggest that these noobs exist in a seperate plane of reality where you have to apply anti-logic to sink that low? 8 workers beating 7 because it takes the attacking SCV's 30 seconds base-to-base is not written in the manual, its not in the tutorial.
Yeah, I guess the exercise of counting to eight isn't in the manual or the tutorial. Excellent point.
Who the **** are you to tell people they shouldn't be playing video games because they dont meet YOUR requirements and standards?
Yeah, nobody is saying that. He's just saying that people are bafflingly bad at the lowest levels. Which, you know, makes sense statistically, considering that they're at the bottom.
The snobby comments like "look who you are defending" remind me of the kind of things you read about in history books about the oppression of minorities across the world. Good job carrying on one of the most disgusting traditions to grace human history.
Yeah, I'm glad that minorities are only oppressed in history books where you live. Also -- are you implying that being a minority, something that is entirely outside of somebody's control, is similar to being so awful at a competitive video game that you lose to the absolute weakest attack imaginable?
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For what is worth, I liked this blog, Gheed.
People have no sense of humour anymore. But as always the righteous must defend the downtrodden. So righteous away good knights, I'll be somewhere else having a laugh.
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Wow, bronze league really is the hell hole of sc2.
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On February 06 2012 09:03 Ixtlilton wrote:
I am truly sorry, but if you can't find a, click, and sit back within 4 seconds then you should not be playing video games. rds. .
That is expressly saying that bronzers shouldnt play. Why dont you read before quoting people off-topic.
It's human nature to be embarassed by defeat. It's human nature to be upset by something when it bests you. That is all well within the confines of the game.
I think alot of you guys quoting me are out of touch with the reality of how the world works. For 99% of the world, their life does not revolve heavily around SC2. Within this 99% there are the people we are discussing, who like the game, not the e-Sport, and who simply are trying to blow off some steam, who will never look up how to do a perfect build, will never understand how the metagame is supposed to react. These people will lose to worker rushes because they are not starcraft robots and, as the OP CLEARLY demonstrated, tend to act in ways which guarantee their loss.
I just dont see whats worth posting a 7 part blog about how you can piss off a bunch of noobies by humiliating them(i dont care what you say, when you lose to a worker rush it is infuriating and humilitating). Are you really surprised that platinum player will win with sub-optimal strats because the skill difference is that extreme? It certainly found it funny for the first couple parts but I't doesnt change the fact that its not right.
Lord_J, the humiliation is not the loss in game, its the fact that we have this thread here, which shows player tags in full detail, league results, etc. I wouldn't imagine it beyond the realm of possibility that someone, somewhere has found their name in this blog. Would you be happy to find yourself being called a moron? Is it funny to call someone "stupid beyond the common denominator" for it? I have been guilty of BM before and I probably will be again, but when we step beyond the threshhold of anonymity and make these comments to threads with bronze leaguers name's in them, well thats bang out of order mate.
You cast me as trolling for paraphrasing from Gheed's own blog(whether that was true or not, who knows who cares) when you yourself are trolling trying to be witty, taking my sentences out of context and reading them exactly as written rather than actually understanding the message I am conveying(ie the roach hydra statement, taken from reference to the turtling game where Gheed reported that his opponent randomly built about 30 hydras, 4 spines and a overseer without even scouting his base. This is the kind of random behavior that inexperienced players do.)
[QUOTE]On February 06 2012 10:44 zarepath wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 06 2012 10:18 GeNeSiDe wrote:
The attitudes expressed in your post are exactly the problems we should be trying to weed out in TL and SC communities
[quote]
All the posts defending Gheed seem to assume that Starcraft knowledge is akin to common sense, how can you have the gall to suggest that these noobs exist in a seperate plane of reality where you have to apply anti-logic to sink that low? 8 workers beating 7 because it takes the attacking SCV's 30 seconds base-to-base is not written in the manual, its not in the tutorial. [/quote]
Yeah, I guess the exercise of counting to eight isn't in the manual or the tutorial. Excellent point.
[/QUOTE]
Nice try failing at being funny. My point is, assuming a bronzie even walls off, he has about 4 seconds between when the workers are visible on minimap to when the first attack goes off.
Your and my thought process would say "I have more workers, A-click" in a blink of an eye.
Now let me run you through an imaginary noobie thought process:
1. whats happening
2. how many workers is it
3. how many workers do i have
4. how do i respond
5. action
Now obviously there are some among these who Gheed will have lost to who mostly skip 1-5 out of experience but to call someone stupid for not being able to do that in 4 seconds, or for panicking and doing something that loses them the game, its OTT mate. Maybe funny for 1 blog post (like the countless "i 6pool my way to *****" threads), but 7? I just keep imagining a little kid getting ID'ed by his friends as losing to this and quitting SC because of it, when he was genuinely interested. Not everyone is as persistent in the face of failure(which is basically what learning SC is, failure after failure until you do it right).
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I kind of get the feeling you may be making fun off a bunch of 10 and 11-year old kids, and either way it was a great read.
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On February 06 2012 12:13 GeNeSiDe wrote:
Now obviously there are some among these who Gheed will have lost to who mostly skip 1-5 out of experience but to call someone stupid for not being able to do that in 4 seconds, or for panicking and doing something that loses them the game, its OTT mate. Maybe funny for 1 blog post (like the countless "i 6pool my way to *****" threads), but 7? I just keep imagining a little kid getting ID'ed by his friends as losing to this and quitting SC because of it, when he was genuinely interested. Not everyone is as persistent in the face of failure(which is basically what learning SC is, failure after failure until you do it right).
If you quit because of something like that, you were bound to quit sooner rather than later anyway.
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On February 06 2012 10:18 GeNeSiDe wrote:
The snobby comments like "look who you are defending" remind me of the kind of things you read about in history books about the oppression of minorities across the world. Good job carrying on one of the most disgusting traditions to grace human history.
+ Show Spoiler [quotes] +Just more terran OP BS
Terran makes no sense.
You should loose LOL
fking scrub aff dmg hack sont get past bronze cheesing like a bitch lol
I wasent scouting like anoob
id I did I would ruined u you know terran starts with more right? dear god just stay in bronze kidd play like a man or a girl
... so uhh... why are we defending these attitudes again? Maybe they're taken out of context, but I can't really think of any context that justifies the things said. Isn't there a point one can reach where they're just not 'worth' defending? I'm sure I can pick plenty of examples to blow out of proportion but have some truth.
To troll, I can almost say 'good job carrying on one of the most disgusting traditions to grace the internet'. I'll admit that you seem to have some honor about you with your claims, even if I think they're misplaced.
*edit*
On February 06 2012 12:13 GeNeSiDe wrote:
1. whats happening
2. how many workers is it
3. how many workers do i have
4. how do i respond
5. action
The point I see is what happens after.
6. Win, trash talk.
6. Lose, whine about imbalance, trash talk.
It would be different if it was
6. Lose, question why the loss happened, win next time it happens.
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While I think this is hilarious, the hindsight bias in this thread is sickening. People make it sound so obvious that it makes the bronze leaguers look like brainless idiots. Its easy to say, in any scenerio, looking back on a play or strat, "oh its so obvious he should have done that, he should have made X or done Y". Try being in their shoes with their knowledge during the game. For all we know, he was playing a 7 year old (yes, there are 7 year olds who play SC2). When the worker rush happens to players who play for the first time, many don't know what to do. Anyone who says its obvious and common sense are clueless. Me and my friend were doing 2v2, and got proxy 2 gated. They busted a supply depot, and in panic, I started to build a barracks there when I could have lifted off a nearby barracks and blocked the ramp. We ended up losing, and only afterwards, it became painstakingly obvious what I should have done. I hate smug assholes who look back and make obvious claims because they think everyone should be able to think at their level.
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I lost to a these worker rushes back in the beta. I'm masters now, and Gheed anytime you wanna 1v1 hit me up.
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I think the main thing that everyone should be arguing, if they do in fact disagree with this blog, is not whether bronzies "should or should not" be able to a click. Of course they can, and we can laugh at the people who do it. But I feel like it may have been a step too far in posting some of these antecotes.
Take the natman guy. The only real bm he did(which wasn't a reaction to Gheed's own) was "Lol noob." Which is somewhat understandable, given no one likes losing to a worker rush. But I feel that we shouldn't be singling out specific people, or maybe, in a perfect world, Gheed should just blur out the names. Because for all we know the guy was having a horrible day, and it certainly seems like it.
I don't feel like this blog in itself is a bad idea, as I certainly laughed. And I liked to imagine myself worker rushing every game, and seeing the hilarious reactions that bronzies do. But I'm not going to go and humiliate them, for I'm sure at least one of them has read these blogs. And I don't think for your personal amusement, or any sort of "oh you should of A clicked", encourages that sort of humiliation.
Is there an easy way to blur out the names? Sure if someone is a super dick and deserves it, then let the world know they're a dick(*cough* Jedigamer *cough.*) But if you know anyone who's had severe insecurity issues(I have quite a friends with that and a mild amount myself), you will know how severely this kind of blog can have on them.
Anyway just my two cents
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That DEVO picture LOL.
Dear god.....Great blog man....
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You have far more patience than I do. You are quite the baller, sir. Please continue your escapade!
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On February 06 2012 12:26 omgimonfire15 wrote:
While I think this is hilarious, the hindsight bias in this thread is sickening. People make it sound so obvious that it makes the bronze leaguers look like brainless idiots. Its easy to say, in any scenerio, looking back on a play or strat, "oh its so obvious he should have done that, he should have made X or done Y". Try being in their shoes with their knowledge during the game. For all we know, he was playing a 7 year old (yes, there are 7 year olds who play SC2). When the worker rush happens to players who play for the first time, many don't know what to do. Anyone who says its obvious and common sense are clueless. Me and my friend were doing 2v2, and got proxy 2 gated. They busted a supply depot, and in panic, I started to build a barracks there when I could have lifted off a nearby barracks and blocked the ramp. We ended up losing, and only afterwards, it became painstakingly obvious what I should have done. I hate smug assholes who look back and make obvious claims because they think everyone should be able to think at their level.
Exactly my point. A swimmer holds their breath with ease, an ashmatic will choke after seconds.
Edit: Sorry that is daft. Of course you can laugh at the BM. What I mean to say is that encouraging Trolling noobies even if it is in a joking and satyrical way is not right. Im sure most of us would react the same way. he even admittedly makes fun of people in the first few parts "i went back to my trolling ways".
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Just read all these blogs for the first time, some hilarious stuff. People will go to any lengths to prove that they are not in the wrong. The last story there was gold.
I ran into a worker rusher the other day on the ladder, first time I'd encountered it (Plat league). I was so confused, but kept my pants mostly shit-free and just moved my workers into a reasonable position and a-moved. He immediately left the game, of course, but I was so confused afterward. I appreciate it a bit more now 
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Thank you for these blogs. They are endlessly entertaining. That last chatlog was golden.
Ppl really need to sit back and laugh sometimes instead of getting their feelings hurt over everything. Its intense.
The iceing on the cake in all this too are the people who tell you that your wrong about it being easy to stop. It is literally 2 clicks to victory vs a worker rush. Priceless.
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EPT
