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I am posting here because I don't really know where else to post. I am completely ignorqnt when it comes to Islam but I feel so bad for a friend of mine who is almost at the point she wants to commit suicide because of her Muslim traditions, that I don't think are true.
BACKGROUND
I live in Canada and a classmate of mine who is 21 and her family is from Afghanistan. She does not wear any of the traditionally Muslim clothing because her father did not want her to be picked up, but they strongly follow the rest of their religous teachings apparently.
She does not go out in public unless with her brother with the exception of school and he drives her there and picks her up the moment her classes end. She is not allowed to spend any extra time outside of her house than what her class time permits. She is not allowed to use the phone, have Facebook or ever post pictures of herself online. They are pretty strict to say the least, she is not allowed to talk to any boys, I had her brother threaten to kill me when she waved said hello once leaving school. Her father tried to arrange a marriage for her last year, that she tried to say no to and he kind of stalked her. Followed her around at school and eventually she told him off saying she would never marry him and he beat the shit out of her at school. She tried to press charges but her family basically forced her not to ghrough threat if violence and disowning her.
She is completely depressed has no real friends basically has no social life, has a Facebook with a fake name but is terrified that her family will find out. She is so torn her sister and mother is so important to her, but she hates her father and brothers and is terrified of them if she ever tried to defy them. Even her mother and sister told her they would disown her if they did not follow their traditions.
She posts on facebook all the time about how depressed she is and that's all she really talks about at school. I just want to be like what the fuck is wrong with you, its entirely within your rights to refuse any marriage, date who you want to date, go out in public, without the fear of being abused and disowned at home.
She seems to think that she has absolutely no choice she has to do what her father says, and I really doubt that.
Can a Muslim woman marry who ever she wants ( I am assuming they would also have to be Muslim)?
Can a Muslim woman refuse a marriage?
 
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a "muslim" woman can do what any other woman can do too, it just depends on whom she wants to keep calling her muslim.
Your situation really sounds like you should talk to some professionals that actually might be able to talk to her parents. Do you have some kind of counselor at school? Talk to him/her and let him/her get a better opinion on the situation than anyone here is going to be able to give you. Knowing only your side of the story doesn't really help for offering objective advice, so you should talk to someone who can get an own impression of the situation, even better if it's someone professional / trained.
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It's really more of a family thing than a religion thing. Many muslim families are much different and have different practices. Its less "muslims are shitheads" and more "this guy is a shithead".
source= pakistani roommates.
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I doubt even if she could find counseling, unless it was anither Muslim woman she would say no, because she would be tioafraid if reprisal
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This sounds really serious. If she's constantly talking about how depressed she is, that seems like a red flag to me indicating that she's going to continue to deteriorate mentally until something really bad happens at home or she tries to commit suicide.
I guess only you can know how serious it all seems by talking with her, but if you're her friend (not sure what your relationship is) I think it might be good to talk to some sort of counsellor or even police to see what the options are on her behalf, whether there's anywhere she can go to live with different people. I mean does she need help? Is she reaching out to anyone?
Like others have said this isn't an issue with religion. And even so it doesn't trump human rights in Canada. You can't threaten people with violence to live the way you want them to...I'm sure there must be people she or you can contact about domestic abuse (if you want to help her, which it seems like you do). I always thought there was a "child help" hot line for kids, maybe there's some equivalent for adults?
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Interesting blog post with the Shafia case in the news right now. You don't mention why you are asking your questions, but I don't think you are going to make any headway against the entrenched culture by making religious arguments. The family believes what they believe... your friend has to choose between living in fear, and leaving her family for good.
If it was someone I cared about, I would tell them to change their name and move to a different city.
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From your description it sounds as if she'll need to stop all contact with her family. There really isn't much you can do.
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On January 28 2012 10:45 ZAiNs wrote:
Culture =/= Religion
I think this is not applicable in Islam. I am not Islam and all I know about Islam I got from 2 history classes and from books.
It is one religion where religion is integral and embedded in culture. Even most of Islamic cultural virtues are direct effects of religion.
I may be wrong, so please if someone knows better confirm or correct me
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On January 28 2012 11:44 Keyboard Warrior wrote:I think this is not applicable in Islam. I am not Islam and all I know about Islam I got from 2 history classes and from books. It is one religion where religion is integral and embedded in culture. Even most of Islamic cultural virtues are direct effects of religion. I may be wrong, so please if someone knows better confirm or correct me
It simply isn't applicable in its present form. It's an idiotic statement.
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Gnosis, what do you mean not applicable? Muslim culture is defined mostly by their religion,
that's why I replied that Culture =/= Religion is not applicable in Islam. In Catholics yes because while Religion plays a role in culture, human history developed and acquired much much more in culture outside religion.
And please tl, can we drop the "idiotic" "retard" "stupid" comments. As far as I understand, we are here to discuss, not to insult and be petty.
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In most of the third world countries the extremist scholars are teaching this to the poor and uneducated mass so they can remain in the top of hierarchy. It kind of saddens me what these horrible extremists lure people into believing and which consequences they've brought upon the world.
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On January 28 2012 11:44 Keyboard Warrior wrote:I think this is not applicable in Islam. I am not Islam and all I know about Islam I got from 2 history classes and from books. It is one religion where religion is integral and embedded in culture. Even most of Islamic cultural virtues are direct effects of religion. I may be wrong, so please if someone knows better confirm or correct me
The problem is, so many people think that the culture is part of the religion. Rather the religion is part of the culture.
What is going on here is simply the parents being extremely strict. It has nothing to do with the religion at all. Its simply the culture. The culture of the middle east is largely influenced by Islam, correct. But parts of the culture have nothing to do with Islam at all.
We see many western muslims (Irshad Manji) be complete opposite of what is considered "muslim," conduct. yet she still is a Muslim and she lives her life like any other. Many muslims follow Islam and do not carry these same practices. Now if the Koran said anything specfic about what is going on here. That would be a different story, but from what I've studied of the Koran, their is nothing like what is going on here in the Koran.
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On January 28 2012 11:47 Gnosis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 11:44 Keyboard Warrior wrote:On January 28 2012 10:45 ZAiNs wrote:
Culture =/= Religion I think this is not applicable in Islam. I am not Islam and all I know about Islam I got from 2 history classes and from books. It is one religion where religion is integral and embedded in culture. Even most of Islamic cultural virtues are direct effects of religion. I may be wrong, so please if someone knows better confirm or correct me It simply isn't applicable in its present form. It's an idiotic statement.
Do it the French way. We are the best country in terms of multicultural unity! And yes, Islam religion = culture. My muslim friends directly behave according to how religion taught them.
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On January 28 2012 11:54 Keyboard Warrior wrote:
Gnosis, what do you mean not applicable? Muslim culture is defined mostly by their religion,
that's why I replied that Culture =/= Religion is not applicable in Islam. In Catholics yes because while Religion plays a role in culture, human history developed and acquired much much more in culture outside religion.
And please tl, can we drop the "idiotic" "retard" "stupid" comments. As far as I understand, we are here to discuss, not to insult and be petty.
I mean it's too broad a statement to mean anything -- masterbreti brings up one good reason why this is so (does religion affect culture, or vice-versa? Probably both). I was agreeing with you, by the way, so don't get ahead of yourself. Also don't worry about my use of "idiotic": I was describing the statement, not the person.
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Also just to add.
Yes a muslim woman can marry whoever she wants, even a non-Muslim (though some may frown upon it). Arranged marriges are not part of Islam in any way shape or form. Whoever is telling you that is flat out wrong.
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On January 28 2012 11:59 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 11:44 Keyboard Warrior wrote:On January 28 2012 10:45 ZAiNs wrote:
Culture =/= Religion I think this is not applicable in Islam. I am not Islam and all I know about Islam I got from 2 history classes and from books. It is one religion where religion is integral and embedded in culture. Even most of Islamic cultural virtues are direct effects of religion. I may be wrong, so please if someone knows better confirm or correct me The problem is, so many people think that the culture is part of the religion. Rather the religion is part of the culture. What is going on here is simply the parents being extremely strict. It has nothing to do with the religion at all. Its simply the culture. The culture of the middle east is largely influenced by Islam, correct. But parts of the culture have nothing to do with Islam at all. We see many western muslims (Irshad Manji) be complete opposite of what is considered "muslim," conduct. yet she still is a Muslim and she lives her life like any other. Many muslims follow Islam and do not carry these same practices. Now if the Koran said anything specfic about what is going on here. That would be a different story, but from what I've studied of the Koran, their is nothing like what is going on here in the Koran. This hits the nail on the head. In this context, you can't really generalize about Islam like it's a single religion.
BTW, to the OP: you should assume that your friend's family will eventually find out about her facebook account. Secrets rarely last forever. For example, maybe you should create a fake account under a woman's name.
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On January 28 2012 12:04 Gnosis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 11:54 Keyboard Warrior wrote:
Gnosis, what do you mean not applicable? Muslim culture is defined mostly by their religion,
that's why I replied that Culture =/= Religion is not applicable in Islam. In Catholics yes because while Religion plays a role in culture, human history developed and acquired much much more in culture outside religion.
And please tl, can we drop the "idiotic" "retard" "stupid" comments. As far as I understand, we are here to discuss, not to insult and be petty. I mean it's too broad a statement to mean anything -- masterbreti brings up one good reason why this is so (does religion affect culture, or vice-versa? Probably both). I was agreeing with you, by the way, so don't get ahead of yourself. Also don't worry about my use of "idiotic": I was describing the statement, not the person.
You are wrong. Let us first define = not as a mathematical 1:1 correspondence but in a social way that one thing is a product of and bleeds to the other. In this case, in Islam, religion is in fact culture. there may be certain cultural trains among muslims that are outside the scope of religion, but in general terms, much of what defines islamic culture is its religion.
EDIT: By the way, my statement is limited to, I term loosely, "original" arabic islam. There might be asian islams, european islams, but I am not so sure how about the culture-religion dynamics in them.
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On January 28 2012 12:12 Keyboard Warrior wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 12:04 Gnosis wrote:On January 28 2012 11:54 Keyboard Warrior wrote:
Gnosis, what do you mean not applicable? Muslim culture is defined mostly by their religion,
that's why I replied that Culture =/= Religion is not applicable in Islam. In Catholics yes because while Religion plays a role in culture, human history developed and acquired much much more in culture outside religion.
And please tl, can we drop the "idiotic" "retard" "stupid" comments. As far as I understand, we are here to discuss, not to insult and be petty. I mean it's too broad a statement to mean anything -- masterbreti brings up one good reason why this is so (does religion affect culture, or vice-versa? Probably both). I was agreeing with you, by the way, so don't get ahead of yourself. Also don't worry about my use of "idiotic": I was describing the statement, not the person. You are wrong. Let us first define = not as a mathematical 1:1 correspondence but in a social way that one thing is a product of and bleeds to the other. In this case, in Islam, religion is in fact culture. there may be certain cultural trains among muslims that are outside the scope of religion, but in general terms, much of what defines islamic culture is its religion. I think what people are trying to tell you is, you can't really talk about "islamic culture" as if it's one thing.
Edit: OK, with the edit I have no problem with what you are saying... there's no doubt that a heavily religious culture uses religious concepts to justify itself. Why it's not useful in this context, is that you can't make religious arguments to someone in a religious culture unless you already belong to the in group. An Afghani muslim doesn't give a damn what a North American muslim thinks about something. So in this case, the specific culture is more significant than the religion involved.
By the way, there are lots of different viewpoints and beliefs, even within Sunnism, the largest branch of Islam.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
All I know is that in Islam, the religion is the law, unlike the western nations. However, for the girl, she seriously needs to seek out authorities regardless of the threats from her family because her life is at danger. All this goes to show is the dangers of islam in a western culture.
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On January 28 2012 12:16 munchmunch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 12:12 Keyboard Warrior wrote:On January 28 2012 12:04 Gnosis wrote:On January 28 2012 11:54 Keyboard Warrior wrote:
Gnosis, what do you mean not applicable? Muslim culture is defined mostly by their religion,
that's why I replied that Culture =/= Religion is not applicable in Islam. In Catholics yes because while Religion plays a role in culture, human history developed and acquired much much more in culture outside religion.
And please tl, can we drop the "idiotic" "retard" "stupid" comments. As far as I understand, we are here to discuss, not to insult and be petty. I mean it's too broad a statement to mean anything -- masterbreti brings up one good reason why this is so (does religion affect culture, or vice-versa? Probably both). I was agreeing with you, by the way, so don't get ahead of yourself. Also don't worry about my use of "idiotic": I was describing the statement, not the person. You are wrong. Let us first define = not as a mathematical 1:1 correspondence but in a social way that one thing is a product of and bleeds to the other. In this case, in Islam, religion is in fact culture. there may be certain cultural trains among muslims that are outside the scope of religion, but in general terms, much of what defines islamic culture is its religion. I think what people are trying to tell you is, you can't really talk about "islamic culture" as if it's one thing.
read edit.
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Aside from everything else it sounds like she is in real trouble. You should talk to her about getting out of there because you are going to feel really, really bad if she kills herself.
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Its more about culture than religion. Since she is officially an adult, she could choose to move out on her own (with or without her family's permission). Once she's on her own, Her family can't force her to marry or restrict how she lives her life. Sounds like a really crappy situation, I hope she figures out a way to solve it.
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On January 28 2012 12:12 Keyboard Warrior wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 12:04 Gnosis wrote:On January 28 2012 11:54 Keyboard Warrior wrote:
Gnosis, what do you mean not applicable? Muslim culture is defined mostly by their religion,
that's why I replied that Culture =/= Religion is not applicable in Islam. In Catholics yes because while Religion plays a role in culture, human history developed and acquired much much more in culture outside religion.
And please tl, can we drop the "idiotic" "retard" "stupid" comments. As far as I understand, we are here to discuss, not to insult and be petty. I mean it's too broad a statement to mean anything -- masterbreti brings up one good reason why this is so (does religion affect culture, or vice-versa? Probably both). I was agreeing with you, by the way, so don't get ahead of yourself. Also don't worry about my use of "idiotic": I was describing the statement, not the person. You are wrong. Let us first define = not as a mathematical 1:1 correspondence but in a social way that one thing is a product of and bleeds to the other. In this case, in Islam, religion is in fact culture. there may be certain cultural trains among muslims that are outside the scope of religion, but in general terms, much of what defines islamic culture is its religion. EDIT: By the way, my statement is limited to, I term loosely, "original" arabic islam. There might be asian islams, european islams, but I am not so sure how about the culture-religion dynamics in them.
To be fair to you, if you had said "culture = religion" I would have also called that an idiotic statement. Sorry if I've confused you, or if I've been unclear, or if I've misunderstood you: my point was simply that you can't say "culture =/= religion", just as you couldn't say "culture = religion" (or vice-versa in each instance). The dynamic and relationship between culture and religion is simply too complex to be relayed in a cheeky (mathematical) expression. Did culture influence the development of Islam? Sure, absolutely. Islam has also influenced the development of those cultures which has adopted it. Are there places in the world where Islam and culture have so coalesced that they are indistinguishable? Perhaps, but that's not our concern. I agree with you, by the way, when you say "much of what defines islamic<sic> culture is its religion".
The comment about Asian Islam, European Islam, original Islam, etc. isn't necessary. The provision exists already in what you've said.
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Should be reported to the authorities, Religion stops being an excuse with you abuse and torture your kids. Parents should be in prison.
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On January 28 2012 12:33 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
Should be reported to the authorities, Religion stops being an excuse with you abuse and torture your kids. Parents should be in prison.
If she was a minor, then maybe. Since she's an adult and chooses to live under their roof she doesn't have much of a case to complain. If she wanted to move out and they wouldn't let her (forcefully restrain her from leaving) then yes.
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Posted from galaxy tab
I assure you this has nothing to do with religion. Its a cultural and raciak thing. If you wre afghan they most probably would not be so agressive.
Muslim women can not marry non muslim men. But muslim men can marry non muslim women. It comes down to the description and responsibilities of man woman and child described in the quraan. This being said, threats, violence, hatred are not part of the islamic religion. Anyone preaching such thingns are not really muslim.
Hope this helps
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On January 28 2012 12:32 Gnosis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 12:12 Keyboard Warrior wrote:On January 28 2012 12:04 Gnosis wrote:On January 28 2012 11:54 Keyboard Warrior wrote:
Gnosis, what do you mean not applicable? Muslim culture is defined mostly by their religion,
that's why I replied that Culture =/= Religion is not applicable in Islam. In Catholics yes because while Religion plays a role in culture, human history developed and acquired much much more in culture outside religion.
And please tl, can we drop the "idiotic" "retard" "stupid" comments. As far as I understand, we are here to discuss, not to insult and be petty. I mean it's too broad a statement to mean anything -- masterbreti brings up one good reason why this is so (does religion affect culture, or vice-versa? Probably both). I was agreeing with you, by the way, so don't get ahead of yourself. Also don't worry about my use of "idiotic": I was describing the statement, not the person. You are wrong. Let us first define = not as a mathematical 1:1 correspondence but in a social way that one thing is a product of and bleeds to the other. In this case, in Islam, religion is in fact culture. there may be certain cultural trains among muslims that are outside the scope of religion, but in general terms, much of what defines islamic culture is its religion. EDIT: By the way, my statement is limited to, I term loosely, "original" arabic islam. There might be asian islams, european islams, but I am not so sure how about the culture-religion dynamics in them. To be fair to you, if you had said "culture = religion" I would have also called that an idiotic statement. Sorry if I've confused you, or if I've been unclear, or if I've misunderstood you: my point was simply that you can't say "culture =/= religion", just as you couldn't say "culture = religion" (or vice-versa in each instance). The dynamic and relationship between culture and religion is simply too complex to be relayed in a cheeky (mathematical) expression. Did culture influence the development of Islam? Sure, absolutely. Islam has also influenced the development of those cultures which has adopted it. Are there places in the world where Islam and culture have so coalesced that they are indistinguishable? Perhaps, but that's not our concern. I agree with you, by the way, when you say "much of what defines islamic<sic> culture is its religion". The comment about Asian Islam, European Islam, original Islam, etc. isn't necessary. The provision exists already in what you've said.
You see, I've already limited my statement to, again loosely as i dont know the exact term, "arabic" islam where religion = culture as a matter of Quran fact. If you still dont recognize this, you need to do some studying.
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how about stop arguing about religion and culture and try to give advice that would help the girl.
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As a 'Westernized' Muslim (I was born in and lived in Pakistan until age 6, at which point my family and I moved to the United States, where we have lived for over 15 years now), this shit disgusts me.
I think Gnosis' explanation of both the potential disconnects and inter-relatedness of religion and culture are sound. Problems like these arise when self-proclaimed 'religious' people fail to see the difference between WHAT they're doing and WHY they're doing it.
Embarrassingly I am no expert on the subject, but the reason why women were 'protected' (or sheltered) during the beginnings of Islam was because women during that time period (and region) had very few rights, and were basically viewed as sex-objects and property. The leaders of Islam in its youngest stages felt it was necessary for women to change their behavior (over-generalization perhaps) in order to create a new image and mentality for themselves. This is where the concepts of the burka and strong familial dependence were developed.
In part due to these ideas, women in some parts of the Islamic world began to gain respect and rights comparable (I hesitate to say completely equal) to those of men's. For example, Pakistan has had a female Prime Minister, something that we haven't even seen in more 'equal-rights' countries, such as the US (Pakistan is in no position to brag about anything - just an example). In modern Pakistan it is quite common to see women in form-fitting clothes and 'western' apparel such as T-shirt and jeans, women can vote and own property and have various other rights, the lack of which sound ridiculous to most of the western world.
Despite these strides, many parts of the Islamic world were far too rigid and such progress was never made. This family is obviously of this mindset, treating women like property. As aforementioned, while a strong focus on family ties can be a great thing, this example, in my opinion, is unacceptable. The sad thing is that people who are brought up under this type of severe control are typically (in my experience - I have quite a few friends and acquaintances with similar upbringings) lacking individuality, confidence and, not surprisingly, healthy social skills.
At this point there's not a sure-fire way to help your friend. Contacting some sort of authorities such as social services may make matters even worse. Your friend may not be able to thrive without her family, even after such a rough upbringing - severing - or even attempting to sever - these kinds of emotional ties, even when oppressive, can have a negative effect. On the other hand, leaving her family in the dust may be the best decision she ever makes.
Just be as supportive a friend as you can - talk to her, see if you can figure out how she feels and what kind of actions she wants to take, how much of your or others' helps she wants, and make a judgment call from there.
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On January 28 2012 10:52 heroofcanton wrote:
It's really more of a family thing than a religion thing. Many muslim families are much different and have different practices. Its less "muslims are shitheads" and more "this guy is a shithead".
source= pakistani roommates.
I agree with this guy, except to point out that "this guy is a shithead" BECAUSE of islam. Pretty obvious, right?
To the OP, I would steer clear of the whole situation. Yeah it sucks, but interfering might bring more harm to her than good, and you don't want that burden on your shoulders.
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There is no "real" answer to what a religion teaches - Islam or any other. We use a name to refer to a set of religious beliefs that tend to have some common main ideas, but each person's beliefs are different. Whether she has to do what her family says is really a function of how much she cares about staying close to them, not what the religion teaches. She's old enough to make her own decisions and in a country that will legally protect her if she does, but there's no law on earth that's going to force people to be your friend. If her family decides to stop talking to her, that's how it is. That's going to be a horrible decision for anyone to make, and on top of that she's been taught this stuff her whole life. The best thing you can do is to be understanding and supportive and let her decide what to do for herself.
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On January 28 2012 13:07 Meta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 10:52 heroofcanton wrote:
It's really more of a family thing than a religion thing. Many muslim families are much different and have different practices. Its less "muslims are shitheads" and more "this guy is a shithead".
source= pakistani roommates. I agree with this guy, except to point out that "this guy is a shithead" BECAUSE of islam. Pretty obvious, right? To the OP, I would steer clear of the whole situation. Yeah it sucks, but interfering might bring more harm to her than good, and you don't want that burden on your shoulders.
I don't agree with Meta's first statement necessarily... while it may be true in practice, one could think of two 'forms' of Islam: one that is pure theory/principle ('on paper') and the one that is actually practiced. As I suggested in my post, there is a considerable disconnect between the ideals/principles of Islam (including their original context in history) and what we actually have seen and still see done by people.
I'm not sure if this the best analogy but think of it as similar to the reason why communism doesn't work well in reality: while on paper communism seems sound, a lot is lost in translating it from paper to putting an actual system in place that is run by and for human beings, who are obviously imperfect and lacking perfect reason and logic.
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She's an adult in a free country. Move away from the abusive assholes and do what you want. If you're too afraid of the consequences, it's your choice to stay... If her sister and mother love her, then I have a hard time believing they actually disown her... But if that were the case. then fuck them. obviously they are crazy, and you shouldn't need to be paranoid about what crazy people think about you.
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On January 28 2012 13:32 Spikeke wrote:
She's an adult in a free country. Move away from the abusive assholes and do what you want. If you're too afraid of the consequences, it's your choice to stay... If her sister and mother love her, then I have a hard time believing they actually disown her... But if that were the case. then fuck them. obviously they are crazy, and you shouldn't need to be paranoid about what crazy people think about you.
Yep. She needs to either get busy living the life she wants or get busy dying. She'll kill herself if she stays and be disowned if she leaves (granted, she will get disowned by a bunch of monsters, but family is family). There is no easy way out but a choice must be made, a choice that she must learn she has.
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On January 28 2012 13:35 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 13:32 Spikeke wrote:
She's an adult in a free country. Move away from the abusive assholes and do what you want. If you're too afraid of the consequences, it's your choice to stay... If her sister and mother love her, then I have a hard time believing they actually disown her... But if that were the case. then fuck them. obviously they are crazy, and you shouldn't need to be paranoid about what crazy people think about you. Yep. She needs to either get busy living the life she wants or get busy dying. She'll kill herself if she stays and be disowned if she leaves (granted, she will get disowned by a bunch of monsters, but family is family). There is no easy way out but a choice must be made, a choice that she must learn she has.
That's what it ultimately boils down to but it's not that simple.
When you live your entire life without free will it's very difficult to conceptualize the idea that you actually have free will. Avenues or options that may be familiar/obvious to you who grew up with the idea of freedom would never occur to her.
When you have zero close friends/confidants in life except for your family, breaking off from your family is a lot like jumping off the roof of a tall building without anything to catch you. What she really needs (and most likely doesn't have) is at least one dedicated close friend who's willing to provide psychological support for probably several years until she's familiarized with the options she has available in the western world.
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On January 28 2012 10:45 ZAiNs wrote:
Culture =/= Religion
In the case of islam, it's really not so far apart. That's what the friend in question here, is having an issue with. That's why it's so unanimous that arabs tend to be muslim (beside the minority that becomes christian and moves to the west).
I've been to a few islamic countries, and it's shocking what an islamic country is like. In the west, it's almost cool to sort of 'rebel' and not be christian like your parents. But over there, everyone is 'muslim', I mean even your peers and high school friends will just completely shun you if you say anything against you. You have to understand that these are countries where speakers blast every hour on the hour from 6AM to 6PM about the quran.
It's a horrible religion. Yea, all religions are pretty nutty imo, but it's kind of disgusting how authoritarian it is, how inseparable the culture is from the religion, and just how plain intolerant it is. Women, gays, they don't have equal rights at all in these countries, and the amount of pressure for someone young and raised muslim to be a muslim, to marry muslim, to only hang around other muslims, is insane.
I'm sure I sound like a jackass, but I assure you, visit an islamic state and see for yourself. It's much more than just a religion, it's a way of life, a culture, everything. I can only assume the closest thing is maybe living in ww2 japan where everyone was shinto and followed the emperor (who was a puppet of the military) or living in the dark ages under the catholic church. It's insane.
I mean they're nice people, but it's like, much more than a religion, and I don't think people realize that. They branch it with christianity, or assume it's anything like religion in the west, and it's not. You literally can't say anything against it over there, you can't ever reject your family's islamic religion.
Sorry for your friend, I'm sure she's under a shitton of pressure. her family is basically going to exile her and say really nasty things about her, so you need to show her she has support, not just yourself, but from a lot of people.
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Kitetsu and Belial88 good posts thanks
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I am Muslim, woman, and Arab. I was born and raised for the most part in the USA and have lived for a short period in the Middle East. Unfortunately, every now and then you will hear about someone who has super controlling parents. Did I grow up the same way as this girl? Nope. I was given a lot of freedom and I don't believe that any part of this stuff that this family is doing part of Islam. It's purely cultural. I went to an Islamic high school in the US. My parent regularly attend Mosques and other religious events. My mom works and pitches in with the finances along with my dad. I work and was encouraged to live outside the house when starting college. I ended up moving back in with my parents because I transferred to a closer college.
Here's the deal. Her family doesn't care what the world thinks or what other Muslims think. They're stuck in a dangerous mentality. The girl has to choose for herself if she wants out. It's probably hard now, since she has no means of financially supporting herself, but she's also been raised to have loyalty to her family. Eastern cultures tend to be collective. So it's harder to say 'screw my family, i'm going to do whatever I want.'
In addition, are you more concerned about what Muslim beliefs are or helping your friend? You should be more concerned about helping your friend. You know when something is wrong when you see it. What's happening in this girl's life is wrong. The justification doesn't matter.
I'm going to say this now. Coming to an internet forum is probably not the best place to learn about a religion. Find other Muslims and talk to them about this. It's possible that she can get help with her situation from her local Mosque. I know in the Chicago-land area. No Mosque would stand for this. I recommend going to a Mosque just because it may be more familiar territory for her, but it's possible that she would be better suited for other types of help. Chicago-land Mosques tend to provide counseling. I'm fortunate to have a Mosque where they're in partnership with social workers. Ultimately, the decision to change has to come from her before she can get help.
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My cousin is married to a Muslim girl.
She's a really hot engineer. =)
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To me it sounds like her father is psychotic. Actually, if her parents were abusive alcoholics she would at least have the option of getting a job as soon as she is old enough and moving out on her own, no matter the financial stresses of it. My own dad did the same thing in his youth. If this girl got a job her parents would probably beat her though, possibly disown her before she got a chance to put together any savings, or even worse.
Her best option would probably be some sort of charity or government program. The problem with that is that again, depending on what organization she's dealing with, it might take some time for her to be processed, during which time if she was caught planning this move she could again be disowned before she was prepared for independence. My advice would be to help her look for any program that can set her up instantly, or to look for other more distant family who she can trust, or possibly to even live with you and your parents, if they're the generous and trusting types, since it is ultimately their home; if all else fails, she should really just go live on the streets until she can get signed up for a homeless shelter, which is incredibly scary and terrible to have to admit as a last option, but possibly better than the prospect of spending the rest of her life under the thumb of her zealot father, brother, or spouse.
Naturally I have no experience at dealing with anything like this kind of problem, but this is what advice I have to offer from reasoning alone. And the most important part is probably to encourage her, and keep her from giving up hope. If she is at all considering suicide then hopelessness is by far her biggest enemy. I would emphasize that she has many options and there probably is a way out. Good luck dealing with this trauma, and I hope she's worth it.
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if she's considering suicide, she needs professional help. What she's going through is clearly abuse, even many Muslims would not go that far to do what her father did, and would recognize it as such if asked. Get her help. She needs to talk to a professional. It probably will have to be a woman therapist, for obvious reasons. Money might be an issue, but many talk therapists are willing to work at discount rates for students, or if she has some sort of insurance maybe the school can put a word in for her. Suicide is serious business. School counseling is also not a bad idea.
[keep in mind therapists/counselors also have various styles and skills, so don't settle for the first one you meet. Instead, take some time to "shop" around before choosing the one you feel the most comfortable talking with.]
[If you're diagnosed with depression, they might ask you to take medication. While this might help for the short term to get you up to speed and functioning, it's not a long term solution. And long term use of anti-depressants can actually devastate your mind. [Source: http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Epidemic-Bullets-Psychiatric-Astonishing/dp/0307452417］ There is a growing body of literature talking about the controversies of psych medication. So i'd say use it to get out of a rut, but look for alternatives asap. ]
I've got my own biases on the topic, but getting beaten by a grown man is clearly batshit insane, and a toxic environment to say the least. What she needs is a social network, not the facebook kind, but an actual support group. Therapy can help deal with the suicide thing, but it can't replace friends and social support. So while she's trying out different therapists, see if you can find ways to grow a small support network, say with an initial goal of 3-4 people.
Last of all, in conjunction with some of the other posters, i'd say she should give serious consideration to leaving her family environment. It's clearly out of her power to change it. But if she's to the point of considering suicide, this is now a clear life-threatening situation. What's at stake here isn't just the immediate life and death, but also her future. People who grow up in abusive families are at risk for / correlated with multitudes of issues, everything from increased crime rates to substance abuse to future child abuse to lower IQ and just in general not happy adulthood. Of course, there are many things within your control to deal with this, but most of the recovery work requires not being in the damaging environment in the first place. Just like you cant expect to recover from burns if you just keep hanging out in a fire.
There are a lot of helpful people on the internet who can point you to all the reading/podcast material/advice/motivational boost/empathetic ear, but all of these are just road signs. Knowing that at the end of the day, you're responsible for saving your own ass, is a hard lesson to learn, but also an incredibly empowering one once you've learned you can do it. Take the step.
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Edit: To add: There are lots of therapists who specialize in this type of issue, because (sad to say) it's actually occurring frequently enough to warrant specialization in. Like another poster mentioned, talk to your muslim community leaders (or a different Muslim community, if the one you're in supports this type of abuse), it goes without saying to use discretion, but she's probably only two or three degrees of separation from someone who can help her, once she starts looking.
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On January 28 2012 14:42 LittleAtari wrote:
I am Muslim, woman, and Arab. I was born and raised for the most part in the USA and have lived for a short period in the Middle East. Unfortunately, every now and then you will hear about someone who has super controlling parents. Did I grow up the same way as this girl? Nope. I was given a lot of freedom and I don't believe that any part of this stuff that this family is doing part of Islam. It's purely cultural. I went to an Islamic high school in the US. My parent regularly attend Mosques and other religious events. My mom works and pitches in with the finances along with my dad. I work and was encouraged to live outside the house when starting college. I ended up moving back in with my parents because I transferred to a closer college.
Here's the deal. Her family doesn't care what the world thinks or what other Muslims think. They're stuck in a dangerous mentality. The girl has to choose for herself if she wants out. It's probably hard now, since she has no means of financially supporting herself, but she's also been raised to have loyalty to her family. Eastern cultures tend to be collective. So it's harder to say 'screw my family, i'm going to do whatever I want.'
In addition, are you more concerned about what Muslim beliefs are or helping your friend? You should be more concerned about helping your friend. You know when something is wrong when you see it. What's happening in this girl's life is wrong. The justification doesn't matter.
I'm going to say this now. Coming to an internet forum is probably not the best place to learn about a religion. Find other Muslims and talk to them about this. It's possible that she can get help with her situation from her local Mosque. I know in the Chicago-land area. No Mosque would stand for this. I recommend going to a Mosque just because it may be more familiar territory for her, but it's possible that she would be better suited for other types of help. Chicago-land Mosques tend to provide counseling. I'm fortunate to have a Mosque where they're in partnership with social workers. Ultimately, the decision to change has to come from her before she can get help.
This is such good advice. Ask at a local mosque and see if they can help you.
one way or another the girl needs help, her situation is terrible.
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On January 28 2012 14:51 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 14:42 LittleAtari wrote:
I am Muslim, woman, and Arab. I was born and raised for the most part in the USA and have lived for a short period in the Middle East. Unfortunately, every now and then you will hear about someone who has super controlling parents. Did I grow up the same way as this girl? Nope. I was given a lot of freedom and I don't believe that any part of this stuff that this family is doing part of Islam. It's purely cultural. I went to an Islamic high school in the US. My parent regularly attend Mosques and other religious events. My mom works and pitches in with the finances along with my dad. I work and was encouraged to live outside the house when starting college. I ended up moving back in with my parents because I transferred to a closer college.
Here's the deal. Her family doesn't care what the world thinks or what other Muslims think. They're stuck in a dangerous mentality. The girl has to choose for herself if she wants out. It's probably hard now, since she has no means of financially supporting herself, but she's also been raised to have loyalty to her family. Eastern cultures tend to be collective. So it's harder to say 'screw my family, i'm going to do whatever I want.'
In addition, are you more concerned about what Muslim beliefs are or helping your friend? You should be more concerned about helping your friend. You know when something is wrong when you see it. What's happening in this girl's life is wrong. The justification doesn't matter.
I'm going to say this now. Coming to an internet forum is probably not the best place to learn about a religion. Find other Muslims and talk to them about this. It's possible that she can get help with her situation from her local Mosque. I know in the Chicago-land area. No Mosque would stand for this. I recommend going to a Mosque just because it may be more familiar territory for her, but it's possible that she would be better suited for other types of help. Chicago-land Mosques tend to provide counseling. I'm fortunate to have a Mosque where they're in partnership with social workers. Ultimately, the decision to change has to come from her before she can get help. This is such good advice. Ask at a local mosque and see if they can help you. one way or another the girl needs help, her situation is terrible.
It's an extremely sensitive situation and requires help from various sources: religious, cultural, and psychological. I've sent the OP a PM that I think will be helpful. Good luck on helping your friend 
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On a lighter note, this is like the best disguise ever. Going to a Starcraft Video Game Forum for personal issue advice and support, her family will never see it coming.
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On January 28 2012 13:27 Kitetsu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 13:07 Meta wrote:On January 28 2012 10:52 heroofcanton wrote:
It's really more of a family thing than a religion thing. Many muslim families are much different and have different practices. Its less "muslims are shitheads" and more "this guy is a shithead".
source= pakistani roommates. I agree with this guy, except to point out that "this guy is a shithead" BECAUSE of islam. Pretty obvious, right? To the OP, I would steer clear of the whole situation. Yeah it sucks, but interfering might bring more harm to her than good, and you don't want that burden on your shoulders. I don't agree with Meta's first statement necessarily... while it may be true in practice, one could think of two 'forms' of Islam: one that is pure theory/principle ('on paper') and the one that is actually practiced. As I suggested in my post, there is a considerable disconnect between the ideals/principles of Islam (including their original context in history) and what we actually have seen and still see done by people. I'm not sure if this the best analogy but think of it as similar to the reason why communism doesn't work well in reality: while on paper communism seems sound, a lot is lost in translating it from paper to putting an actual system in place that is run by and for human beings, who are obviously imperfect and lacking perfect reason and logic.
I'm not saying all Muslims are bad people or anything like that. I'm just saying that this family, in particular, decided to take the book too literally and are shitheads because of it. It's the same reason that Christians who bomb abortion clinics are shitheads, they take the book too literally and do horrible things. I could see a counter argument being that the book and the religion aren't necessarily the same thing, but I think they're close enough. So under that assumption, her family are shitheads because of Islam (or, at least, the book).
The person on the previous page who said he should go with her to a mosque for help, I agree with. But it would be interesting, to me, to hear them rebuke the things that the book says 
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Stuff like this makes me sick, especially with (as someone mentioned above) the Shafia case all over the news. I'm all for immigration and multiculturalism, but new immigrants should at least adopt basic Canadian values, such as gender equality. Assholes like this girl's father and brothers should be shipped back to Afghanistan ASAP, as far as I'm concerned. How is it a good thing to repress your daughter so much that she wants to kill herself? Use your fucking brain and realize that this is aspect of your traditions is complete and utter garbage. You came to Canada to live a better life, why do you have to bring that garbage with you? Don't you realize a big part of the reason why things are better here is because our society, although far from perfect, has evolved and for the most part shed outdated ways of thinking such as treating woman like chattel? Get your head out of your fucking ass.
I've known many Muslim people, and I actually studied Arabic for three years in uni, and there is absolutely no need for her family to treat her that way. I know quite a few Muslim girls, even ones who wear the veil, who aren't repressed in the slightest, can have boyfriends, FB, etc... The only reason her father is treating her that way is because of his borderline-retarded rural Afghani traditions. OP, your friend should get out of that household as soon as possible, before she ends up like the Shafia girls because she did something completely innocuous like kiss a boy and her father has to "protect the family honor".
Sorry this was kind of a rant, but shit like this really pisses me off.
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Well the problem with moving out besides what was mentioned above (being cut off with no financial means and the psychological impact due to the cultural tradition she was raised in) make it hard it also can be dangerous if what you say is true and the family is taking it that far. She could face physical abuse maybe even death for "dishonoring" the family.
Maybe she can talk to other families of similar cultural identity or maybe the leader of the mosque in your community? They could provide help and advice (provided they do not hold similar strict beliefs) for her on how to deal with this situation.
Its not easy for even western raised kids to cut ties with your family so she will need a lot of support regardless and plus if she is a minor it changes things,
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The family lives in Canada. In saying so, the family must live under the laws of the country, not under Islamic law. The father or brother cannot beat your lady friend up and think they are doing the right thing. If they do and you find out. Contact the police and have the bastard arrested. Women bashers! This sort of thing must not be tolerated and must stop. This is what it boils down to. Canadian Law.
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It's not like this family hates what they are doing but force themselves into living the way they do every day.
Even if you found the long lost extra page of the Quran which directly adresses them by name and their actions and says "don't do it" they would still carry on.
The men relish the domination. The women relish being dominated.
It's a rare few that can look past the destructive master/slave relation that dominates these kind of families. Their questioning nature isn't rewarded, they threaten to upset the status quo.
Yes, they will disown her. She has to submit or she will be disowned. That won't be the end of it either. Her family will continue to assault her emotionally and perhaps even physically.
You are talking about a culture that is completely alien from ours. If your sister gets raped, your first thought isn't "i have to slit her throat because she has disgraced my family." That's the kind of people you are dealing with.
People like her won't get a happy ending. Either she turns away from her oppressive family and will have to carry that around, or she will be forced to marry some first cousin and sit in the house all day long.
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On January 28 2012 14:42 LittleAtari wrote:
I am Muslim, woman, and Arab. I was born and raised for the most part in the USA and have lived for a short period in the Middle East. Unfortunately, every now and then you will hear about someone who has super controlling parents. Did I grow up the same way as this girl? Nope. I was given a lot of freedom and I don't believe that any part of this stuff that this family is doing part of Islam. It's purely cultural. I went to an Islamic high school in the US. My parent regularly attend Mosques and other religious events. My mom works and pitches in with the finances along with my dad. I work and was encouraged to live outside the house when starting college. I ended up moving back in with my parents because I transferred to a closer college.
Here's the deal. Her family doesn't care what the world thinks or what other Muslims think. They're stuck in a dangerous mentality. The girl has to choose for herself if she wants out. It's probably hard now, since she has no means of financially supporting herself, but she's also been raised to have loyalty to her family. Eastern cultures tend to be collective. So it's harder to say 'screw my family, i'm going to do whatever I want.'
In addition, are you more concerned about what Muslim beliefs are or helping your friend? You should be more concerned about helping your friend. You know when something is wrong when you see it. What's happening in this girl's life is wrong. The justification doesn't matter.
I'm going to say this now. Coming to an internet forum is probably not the best place to learn about a religion. Find other Muslims and talk to them about this. It's possible that she can get help with her situation from her local Mosque. I know in the Chicago-land area. No Mosque would stand for this. I recommend going to a Mosque just because it may be more familiar territory for her, but it's possible that she would be better suited for other types of help. Chicago-land Mosques tend to provide counseling. I'm fortunate to have a Mosque where they're in partnership with social workers. Ultimately, the decision to change has to come from her before she can get help.
Excellent post. I would definitely do the last part. Good luck to you and your friend!
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On January 28 2012 14:51 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 14:42 LittleAtari wrote:
I am Muslim, woman, and Arab. I was born and raised for the most part in the USA and have lived for a short period in the Middle East. Unfortunately, every now and then you will hear about someone who has super controlling parents. Did I grow up the same way as this girl? Nope. I was given a lot of freedom and I don't believe that any part of this stuff that this family is doing part of Islam. It's purely cultural. I went to an Islamic high school in the US. My parent regularly attend Mosques and other religious events. My mom works and pitches in with the finances along with my dad. I work and was encouraged to live outside the house when starting college. I ended up moving back in with my parents because I transferred to a closer college.
Here's the deal. Her family doesn't care what the world thinks or what other Muslims think. They're stuck in a dangerous mentality. The girl has to choose for herself if she wants out. It's probably hard now, since she has no means of financially supporting herself, but she's also been raised to have loyalty to her family. Eastern cultures tend to be collective. So it's harder to say 'screw my family, i'm going to do whatever I want.'
In addition, are you more concerned about what Muslim beliefs are or helping your friend? You should be more concerned about helping your friend. You know when something is wrong when you see it. What's happening in this girl's life is wrong. The justification doesn't matter.
I'm going to say this now. Coming to an internet forum is probably not the best place to learn about a religion. Find other Muslims and talk to them about this. It's possible that she can get help with her situation from her local Mosque. I know in the Chicago-land area. No Mosque would stand for this. I recommend going to a Mosque just because it may be more familiar territory for her, but it's possible that she would be better suited for other types of help. Chicago-land Mosques tend to provide counseling. I'm fortunate to have a Mosque where they're in partnership with social workers. Ultimately, the decision to change has to come from her before she can get help. This is such good advice. Ask at a local mosque and see if they can help you. one way or another the girl needs help, her situation is terrible.
Listen to what LittleAtari said. Everything she mentioned is pretty much spot on.
Your friend's family just happens to be filled with psychotic individuals. This is coming from a Pakistani Muslim male btw.
I hear stories like that alot though. Especially here (lower class families in particular). Do tell us what happens though. Wish her all the best.
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EPT
