EPTIslam Question. - Page 2
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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Keyboard Warrior
United States1178 Posts
On January 28 2012 12:16 munchmunch wrote: I think what people are trying to tell you is, you can't really talk about "islamic culture" as if it's one thing. read edit. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
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Gnosis
Scotland912 Posts
On January 28 2012 12:12 Keyboard Warrior wrote: You are wrong. Let us first define = not as a mathematical 1:1 correspondence but in a social way that one thing is a product of and bleeds to the other. In this case, in Islam, religion is in fact culture. there may be certain cultural trains among muslims that are outside the scope of religion, but in general terms, much of what defines islamic culture is its religion. EDIT: By the way, my statement is limited to, I term loosely, "original" arabic islam. There might be asian islams, european islams, but I am not so sure how about the culture-religion dynamics in them. To be fair to you, if you had said "culture = religion" I would have also called that an idiotic statement. Sorry if I've confused you, or if I've been unclear, or if I've misunderstood you: my point was simply that you can't say "culture =/= religion", just as you couldn't say "culture = religion" (or vice-versa in each instance). The dynamic and relationship between culture and religion is simply too complex to be relayed in a cheeky (mathematical) expression. Did culture influence the development of Islam? Sure, absolutely. Islam has also influenced the development of those cultures which has adopted it. Are there places in the world where Islam and culture have so coalesced that they are indistinguishable? Perhaps, but that's not our concern. I agree with you, by the way, when you say "much of what defines islamic<sic> culture is its religion". The comment about Asian Islam, European Islam, original Islam, etc. isn't necessary. The provision exists already in what you've said. | ||
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Mr. Nefarious
United States515 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
On January 28 2012 12:33 Mr. Nefarious wrote: Should be reported to the authorities, Religion stops being an excuse with you abuse and torture your kids. Parents should be in prison. If she was a minor, then maybe. Since she's an adult and chooses to live under their roof she doesn't have much of a case to complain. If she wanted to move out and they wouldn't let her (forcefully restrain her from leaving) then yes. | ||
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FXOpen
Australia1844 Posts
I assure you this has nothing to do with religion. Its a cultural and raciak thing. If you wre afghan they most probably would not be so agressive. Muslim women can not marry non muslim men. But muslim men can marry non muslim women. It comes down to the description and responsibilities of man woman and child described in the quraan. This being said, threats, violence, hatred are not part of the islamic religion. Anyone preaching such thingns are not really muslim. Hope this helps | ||
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Keyboard Warrior
United States1178 Posts
On January 28 2012 12:32 Gnosis wrote: To be fair to you, if you had said "culture = religion" I would have also called that an idiotic statement. Sorry if I've confused you, or if I've been unclear, or if I've misunderstood you: my point was simply that you can't say "culture =/= religion", just as you couldn't say "culture = religion" (or vice-versa in each instance). The dynamic and relationship between culture and religion is simply too complex to be relayed in a cheeky (mathematical) expression. Did culture influence the development of Islam? Sure, absolutely. Islam has also influenced the development of those cultures which has adopted it. Are there places in the world where Islam and culture have so coalesced that they are indistinguishable? Perhaps, but that's not our concern. I agree with you, by the way, when you say "much of what defines islamic<sic> culture is its religion". The comment about Asian Islam, European Islam, original Islam, etc. isn't necessary. The provision exists already in what you've said. You see, I've already limited my statement to, again loosely as i dont know the exact term, "arabic" islam where religion = culture as a matter of Quran fact. If you still dont recognize this, you need to do some studying. | ||
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Diglett
600 Posts
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Kitetsu
73 Posts
I think Gnosis' explanation of both the potential disconnects and inter-relatedness of religion and culture are sound. Problems like these arise when self-proclaimed 'religious' people fail to see the difference between WHAT they're doing and WHY they're doing it. Embarrassingly I am no expert on the subject, but the reason why women were 'protected' (or sheltered) during the beginnings of Islam was because women during that time period (and region) had very few rights, and were basically viewed as sex-objects and property. The leaders of Islam in its youngest stages felt it was necessary for women to change their behavior (over-generalization perhaps) in order to create a new image and mentality for themselves. This is where the concepts of the burka and strong familial dependence were developed. In part due to these ideas, women in some parts of the Islamic world began to gain respect and rights comparable (I hesitate to say completely equal) to those of men's. For example, Pakistan has had a female Prime Minister, something that we haven't even seen in more 'equal-rights' countries, such as the US (Pakistan is in no position to brag about anything - just an example). In modern Pakistan it is quite common to see women in form-fitting clothes and 'western' apparel such as T-shirt and jeans, women can vote and own property and have various other rights, the lack of which sound ridiculous to most of the western world. Despite these strides, many parts of the Islamic world were far too rigid and such progress was never made. This family is obviously of this mindset, treating women like property. As aforementioned, while a strong focus on family ties can be a great thing, this example, in my opinion, is unacceptable. The sad thing is that people who are brought up under this type of severe control are typically (in my experience - I have quite a few friends and acquaintances with similar upbringings) lacking individuality, confidence and, not surprisingly, healthy social skills. At this point there's not a sure-fire way to help your friend. Contacting some sort of authorities such as social services may make matters even worse. Your friend may not be able to thrive without her family, even after such a rough upbringing - severing - or even attempting to sever - these kinds of emotional ties, even when oppressive, can have a negative effect. On the other hand, leaving her family in the dust may be the best decision she ever makes. Just be as supportive a friend as you can - talk to her, see if you can figure out how she feels and what kind of actions she wants to take, how much of your or others' helps she wants, and make a judgment call from there. | ||
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
On January 28 2012 10:52 heroofcanton wrote: It's really more of a family thing than a religion thing. Many muslim families are much different and have different practices. Its less "muslims are shitheads" and more "this guy is a shithead". source= pakistani roommates. I agree with this guy, except to point out that "this guy is a shithead" BECAUSE of islam. Pretty obvious, right? To the OP, I would steer clear of the whole situation. Yeah it sucks, but interfering might bring more harm to her than good, and you don't want that burden on your shoulders. | ||
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aristarchus
United States652 Posts
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Kitetsu
73 Posts
On January 28 2012 13:07 Meta wrote: I agree with this guy, except to point out that "this guy is a shithead" BECAUSE of islam. Pretty obvious, right? To the OP, I would steer clear of the whole situation. Yeah it sucks, but interfering might bring more harm to her than good, and you don't want that burden on your shoulders. I don't agree with Meta's first statement necessarily... while it may be true in practice, one could think of two 'forms' of Islam: one that is pure theory/principle ('on paper') and the one that is actually practiced. As I suggested in my post, there is a considerable disconnect between the ideals/principles of Islam (including their original context in history) and what we actually have seen and still see done by people. I'm not sure if this the best analogy but think of it as similar to the reason why communism doesn't work well in reality: while on paper communism seems sound, a lot is lost in translating it from paper to putting an actual system in place that is run by and for human beings, who are obviously imperfect and lacking perfect reason and logic. | ||
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Spikeke
Canada106 Posts
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
On January 28 2012 13:32 Spikeke wrote: She's an adult in a free country. Move away from the abusive assholes and do what you want. If you're too afraid of the consequences, it's your choice to stay... If her sister and mother love her, then I have a hard time believing they actually disown her... But if that were the case. then fuck them. obviously they are crazy, and you shouldn't need to be paranoid about what crazy people think about you. Yep. She needs to either get busy living the life she wants or get busy dying. She'll kill herself if she stays and be disowned if she leaves (granted, she will get disowned by a bunch of monsters, but family is family). There is no easy way out but a choice must be made, a choice that she must learn she has. | ||
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Newbistic
China2912 Posts
On January 28 2012 13:35 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Yep. She needs to either get busy living the life she wants or get busy dying. She'll kill herself if she stays and be disowned if she leaves (granted, she will get disowned by a bunch of monsters, but family is family). There is no easy way out but a choice must be made, a choice that she must learn she has. That's what it ultimately boils down to but it's not that simple. When you live your entire life without free will it's very difficult to conceptualize the idea that you actually have free will. Avenues or options that may be familiar/obvious to you who grew up with the idea of freedom would never occur to her. When you have zero close friends/confidants in life except for your family, breaking off from your family is a lot like jumping off the roof of a tall building without anything to catch you. What she really needs (and most likely doesn't have) is at least one dedicated close friend who's willing to provide psychological support for probably several years until she's familiarized with the options she has available in the western world. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On January 28 2012 10:45 ZAiNs wrote: Culture =/= Religion In the case of islam, it's really not so far apart. That's what the friend in question here, is having an issue with. That's why it's so unanimous that arabs tend to be muslim (beside the minority that becomes christian and moves to the west). I've been to a few islamic countries, and it's shocking what an islamic country is like. In the west, it's almost cool to sort of 'rebel' and not be christian like your parents. But over there, everyone is 'muslim', I mean even your peers and high school friends will just completely shun you if you say anything against you. You have to understand that these are countries where speakers blast every hour on the hour from 6AM to 6PM about the quran. It's a horrible religion. Yea, all religions are pretty nutty imo, but it's kind of disgusting how authoritarian it is, how inseparable the culture is from the religion, and just how plain intolerant it is. Women, gays, they don't have equal rights at all in these countries, and the amount of pressure for someone young and raised muslim to be a muslim, to marry muslim, to only hang around other muslims, is insane. I'm sure I sound like a jackass, but I assure you, visit an islamic state and see for yourself. It's much more than just a religion, it's a way of life, a culture, everything. I can only assume the closest thing is maybe living in ww2 japan where everyone was shinto and followed the emperor (who was a puppet of the military) or living in the dark ages under the catholic church. It's insane. I mean they're nice people, but it's like, much more than a religion, and I don't think people realize that. They branch it with christianity, or assume it's anything like religion in the west, and it's not. You literally can't say anything against it over there, you can't ever reject your family's islamic religion. Sorry for your friend, I'm sure she's under a shitton of pressure. her family is basically going to exile her and say really nasty things about her, so you need to show her she has support, not just yourself, but from a lot of people. | ||
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PUPATREE
340 Posts
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LittleAtari
Jordan1090 Posts
Here's the deal. Her family doesn't care what the world thinks or what other Muslims think. They're stuck in a dangerous mentality. The girl has to choose for herself if she wants out. It's probably hard now, since she has no means of financially supporting herself, but she's also been raised to have loyalty to her family. Eastern cultures tend to be collective. So it's harder to say 'screw my family, i'm going to do whatever I want.' In addition, are you more concerned about what Muslim beliefs are or helping your friend? You should be more concerned about helping your friend. You know when something is wrong when you see it. What's happening in this girl's life is wrong. The justification doesn't matter. I'm going to say this now. Coming to an internet forum is probably not the best place to learn about a religion. Find other Muslims and talk to them about this. It's possible that she can get help with her situation from her local Mosque. I know in the Chicago-land area. No Mosque would stand for this. I recommend going to a Mosque just because it may be more familiar territory for her, but it's possible that she would be better suited for other types of help. Chicago-land Mosques tend to provide counseling. I'm fortunate to have a Mosque where they're in partnership with social workers. Ultimately, the decision to change has to come from her before she can get help. | ||
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