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As the title says.
This series of books is held in high regards by a large number of TL members. I know Incontrol has read through the books multiple times, Tyler has read it, and all the GSL casters have read it. And, given the types of fiction books I'm normally interested in, these books should be right up my alley.
My favorite two authors are Frank Herbert (Dune, Ascension) and James Clavell (Shogun, Taipan). The storytelling style of both of these authors is very similar to the storytelling style of George R. R. Martin. All three authors like to write long, meandering tales full of political intrigue. All three authors are psychopathic in that their storytelling method involves rotating through the perspectives of the main characters and writing through their perspectives. All signs point to a good time.
I'm currently about 250 pages into the first book, but it's slow and hard going. The book isn't quite the page turner I expected it to be. There's (IMO) something off with the writing style. It seems almost as if George R. R. Martin's writing skills aren't quite up to par with his ability to spin a complex story. His sentences are often too pedestrian for the occasion. Every time something intriguing happens and I'm starting to feel the immersion, there was always some phrase or sentence that seems so out of place that it breaks up the rhythm of the story. I desperately want to enjoy the story, but it's rather difficult with his writing style.
Does anyone else experience this? Does the story or Martin's writing style improve over time? And also, why do YOU enjoy the "A Song of Ice and Fire" books?
  
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I have read the first book and about 150 pages into the second.
I was largely wary of the series going into it, but after reading the first 2 chapters of A Game of Thrones I was hooked. I didn't notice any problem with the pace of the story or Martin's writing style; I actually enjoy it. I would say that his writing style stays constant throughout the first and where I am in the second. I enjoy the series mostly because of the characters and the plot.
If you don't like it so far, why waste your time? It may get better for you, but if I were you I would try to find something more enjoyable. You can always go back to the series later. That's actually what I'm doing with Dune. 
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Martin's style is simpler than that of Herbert in my inexpert opinion, but I have never experienced these jarring syntactical missteps that you seem to be finding. Also, the first book is not nearly as much of a page turner as the second one; think of A Game of Thrones as a very longwinded introduction, where the characters stay in their previous roles and the kingdom is fairly stable. The next ones in the series are much more exciting, so just stay in it!
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On January 16 2012 14:42 YoureFired wrote:
Martin's style is simpler than that of Herbert in my inexpert opinion, but I have never experienced these jarring syntactical missteps that you seem to be finding. Also, the first book is not nearly as much of a page turner as the second one; think of A Game of Thrones as a very longwinded introduction, where the characters stay in their previous roles and the kingdom is fairly stable. The next ones in the series are much more exciting, so just stay in it!
I've read the first one and also have some misgivings since getting through the first required some suspension of disbelief on my part. Does the second one get any better in that aspect?
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I love the ASoIaF books. For me its the individual stories all interweaving and being told from so many different PoVs. Its about how characters evolve and change through the story (more so after the first book). Its about telling a serious story while still having both humor and dark moments. Its about keeping the reader on his/her toes.
There are of course some slow chapters, where certain characters really don't have much going on for themselves and their chapters are used more to observe outside circumstances. For me the slow chapters were few and far between. Also keep in mind that the first book spends a good while introducing the world and characters and so it takes some time to ramp up.
Still, if you can't get into the books, I guess its just not your thing. To each his own.
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On January 16 2012 14:40 Eogris wrote:If you don't like it so far, why waste your time? It may get better for you, but if I were you I would try to find something more enjoyable. You can always go back to the series later. That's actually what I'm doing with Dune.
A fair question. It's been a while since I've read a solid piece of fiction like the Dune books, and I haven't really found anything that really "hits the spot". A Song of Ice and Fire just seems to be so close to the mark, yet a bit off in the wrong way. I'll probably start jumping around between this series and some other books like you're doing.
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I am currently at the end of the second book so I can only speak from experience regarding the first two.
First off; the writing style. I have not read Shogun (even though my entire family recommends it, guess I should get going on it soon) but compared to Frank Herbert I can agree that George R. R. Martin doesn't hold up. That's not to say he's not good, obviously, but you don't reach the same levels of immersion. Personally I don't really notice it too much, although I agree that certain phrases throw me off and remind me of reality. For example, instead of breakfast he writes "they broke their fast", and while this may be what they said back then the rest of his writing isn't old fashioned enough to justify it (in my opinion). Neither do I feel that his style changes at all (through what I've read) but I'm betting you'll get used to it. Frank Herbert wasn't always easy to follow.  Styles can take some getting used to.
Second, the perspectives. While I believe most books benefit from being told from multiple angles (and this certainly being one of them) I feel Martin tries to encompass too much of the world he has created,who can blame him really, the political and cultural systems alone are fascinating, but you switch story lines every chapter (not really a problem in the first book where they are all pretty much following the same line) and quite frankly I find certain characters to be flat out boring (talking about you, Catelyn). Obviously its common to switch up the story lines, in any sort of media really, but the sheer amount of different ones makes it easy to loose track if you don't read the book in large chunks and I find that hard to do when almost every chapter you have to start following something different.
Thirdly, the story. This is were Martin excels if you ask me. While his world isn't as complete as Frank Herberts or Tolkiens it's impressive nonetheless and definitely grows on you. The political system especially becomes more interesting further down the line. I really can't discuss the story at length without giving away spoilers but I do feel it unravels superbly as you go on, even if I wish he'd have taken a tip from Tolkien and made the separate story lines a series instead of throwing in a chapter of them here and there.
All that being said it is still some of the best fantasy out there (so far, I'm gonna wait until I've actually finished reading the series before I am prepared to put a label on anything) and you should keep reading it.
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On January 16 2012 14:55 Newbistic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 14:40 Eogris wrote:If you don't like it so far, why waste your time? It may get better for you, but if I were you I would try to find something more enjoyable. You can always go back to the series later. That's actually what I'm doing with Dune. A fair question. It's been a while since I've read a solid piece of fiction like the Dune books, and I haven't really found anything that really "hits the spot". A Song of Ice and Fire just seems to be so close to the mark, yet a bit off in the wrong way. I'll probably start jumping around between this series and some other books like you're doing.
To be fair you are comparing it to possibly the best science fiction series ever written (RIP Frank). As has been said, if you don't enjoy it, don't read it. You don't have to like everything.
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I've read the first book and I found that the series wasn't for me. I had similar problems with the writing style being a bit too plain and out of place. Also, from what I've heard characters continue to die off or get screwed over in the other books. This maybe literarily uninteresting but I like happy endings. At the current moment the series doesn't even have an ending yet.I really like to just be able to read through all of a story in one go, so the fact that is ongoing is also unappealing to me. I may try to finish the series once they all come out, but until then I will probably hold off. Just my thoughts on the series.
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I have read all of them and am 2 books into my re-read, the narrative, character arches and complexity is what compels me. I think that a lot of the time George writes fairly plainly and not super eloquently for the sake of keeping things moving and being sure that the book doesn't get lost with super detailed descriptions since there is just so much going on. The world he creates is so rich and filled out that I think he does sacrifice some eloquence for the sake of clarity.
I wouldn't have it any other way however, he still does come up with some great dialogue and quotes, and the plot points that keep coming are fresh and exciting. The level of cultural and political complexity in the world he creates is the greatest in any books I have ever read.
The first one takes a while before it ramps up and gets super interesting, and after that happens the actual narrative is so deep and compelling you kind of don't notice those things anymore. The next two books after GoT especially are thrilling. Keep with it I think it will click with you. These books are great.
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On January 16 2012 15:04 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 14:55 Newbistic wrote:On January 16 2012 14:40 Eogris wrote:If you don't like it so far, why waste your time? It may get better for you, but if I were you I would try to find something more enjoyable. You can always go back to the series later. That's actually what I'm doing with Dune. A fair question. It's been a while since I've read a solid piece of fiction like the Dune books, and I haven't really found anything that really "hits the spot". A Song of Ice and Fire just seems to be so close to the mark, yet a bit off in the wrong way. I'll probably start jumping around between this series and some other books like you're doing. To be fair you are comparing it to possibly the best science fiction series ever written (RIP Frank). As has been said, if you don't enjoy it, don't read it. You don't have to like everything.
I don't like everything. Most fiction, especially 99% fantasy fiction, is utter crap. I guess I should clarify that I like the story of ASoIaF but the writing style leaves a lot to be desired.
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If your having a tough time trying to read through I would advise putting the book down for a few days and then try to pick it up. I feel like the book has a huge build up like some others said, for me at least I enjoyed the characters. Even through I can see your point of being too simple compared to what you have read, the plot and later on the twists make up for it a hundredfold. I hope you will be able to push on and finish the series in the future!!! : )
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Two words: Characters die.
Comming from a long background of reading fantasy I'm so fucking tired of reading books where I know characters can't die. IF a character should ever die in a fantasy book (GOD FORBID) you'll see it coming 3 chapters away. So boring.
I remember back when I read the Drizzt-books and
+ Show Spoiler +Wulfgar dies. I was sooo fucking happy RA Salvatore had the balls to kill off a main character. The we found out he wasn't dead at all and they rescued him. I stopped reading after that book. Totally ruined the series.
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I loathe, loathe, loathe GRRM's writing style. It is so incredibly clumsy and immature; some people will say it's because he's writing a ton of young characters, but it's the same for when his viewpoint characters are the older ones. Ugh. I have nothing against simplicity in writing-style -- in fact, I typically prefer simpler writing styles! -- but his is just unwieldy in addition to being simple, which is a horrible combination in a writer, unless it's being done on purpose ... which it isn't, in this case, because it's how he always writes.
Anyways, I stuck around for the plot through the fourth book, until it too started to drag. This happened twice during the series for me: Book 2 and Book 4. As of right now, my desire to read Book 5 is at an all-time low; I can't even remember what happened in Book 4, tbh. I read it years ago. I will probably pick up Book 5 over the summer or something when I remember to do so.
The two things GRRM does well are plotting and world-building. He is phenomenal in those categories. However, if those two put together are not enough for you -- though really, they should be given you're a Frank Herbert fan ... -- then you should just move onto another author. (Like Guy Gavriel Kay, who writes similar types of historical fantasy but has a much more lyrical style and utilizes better storytelling methods! Not to mention, he publishes books on-schedule.) Anyways, other than plotting and world-building, GRRM's protagonists are uninteresting, his antagonists are unsympathetic*, his dialogue is mediocre, his thematic writing weak, his pacing only decent (then he hit Book 4, at which point it started to run away from him), and his overall prose just plain awkward. Having said all that, he's still probably one of the best authors the fantasy genre has to offer.
*I'll give him one thing about his characters though, and that's that they're very grey, which I usually enjoy, but it's almost a non-issue if I just don't care about any of them.
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Things aren't predictable. Also, GRRM has a sharp wit and humor.
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I actually agree with you - and unfortunately it gets worse as the series goes on - the 4th and 5th books really drag at points. I am a bit of a fantasy geek though and have read an incredible amount of it over the last 30 years.
I love both clavell and Herbert, in fact I think Noble House and Dune are probably in my top 10 favourite books of all time... I would recomend checking out the swords series by fritz leiber, or Steven eriksons historic fantasy series if you want to get into some more epic fantasy... trust me - leiber especially will not disappoint!
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George R. R. Martin is actually a really great writer... no Herbert, but that's setting the bar really high. I'd say Martin is one of the best modern SF and fantasy writers.
That said, I can't stand the Song of Ice and Fire books. I mean, I started reading them when they came out, and they are pretty good. But I don't see why I should bother reading something, when the author has no intention of ever finishing his story.
If you want to read Martin at his best, try something else. I personally recommend Tuf Voyaging, a collection of short stories following one protagonist.
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I actually quite enjoyed GRRM's writing style. In fact his writing style was what kept me going when the plot began to drastically slow down in the 4th and 5th books. Martin especially steps up his writing style in the climactic moments in the series, for example in the third book + Show Spoiler +the Oberyn vs Gregor fight had some really sick storytelling
edit: after thinking about it i do remember being a little bit bored at the beginning of the first book. Stick with it and try to read carefully. There is lots of substance happening behind the scenes so you have to read between the lines. At the end of the first book when it is revealed that + Show Spoiler +Robert's children aren't actually his
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I think you have to get into the style.
The 1st book was in fact very slow, and it was very chaotic (for me at least) given how many characters and places there are. Once you are fully adapted to these things, the books become much more enjoyable, and also, the plot really picks up in the 2nd and 3rd book.
Martin does get verbose at times, and there will always be chapters that you hate because there will certainly be characters you find uninteresting, but overall, he tells a good story.
My praise for his work unfortunately ends with book three =\
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On January 16 2012 18:14 Inori wrote:
I enjoy the books, but I agree with OP. Even as a non-native English speaker I can feel the lack of writing style skills. Compared to LOTR or even Harry Potter books, G.R.R Martin's style feels like something high-schooler would write.
But, the story itself is very interesting and as someone mentioned above, characters actually die. Most of the characters have two sides to their characters, no black/white crap.
Whole story feels like something that could've happened. Most other fantasy books, while easy to dive into, still have that "yeah, just a fantasy" feel to them.
Martin uses simple prose and tells a good story.
Tolkein definitely had better writing, whereas Rowling definitely did not.
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I like this series because it reminds me of grinding in WoW for hours upon hours and feeling like you are barely making any progress while doing it (because you aren't) I feel like the story is good, but the way it's written can be a bit of a pain to deal with sometimes. I don't think it needs to be as long as it is, there seems to be a lot of silly useless filler things that have no baring on the overall story. idk. I'm only 2/3 of the way through book 1 and it just seems like I might not finish the series... But maybe I find it boring because I've seen the show on TV already... hmm.
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On January 16 2012 19:53 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 18:14 Inori wrote:
I enjoy the books, but I agree with OP. Even as a non-native English speaker I can feel the lack of writing style skills. Compared to LOTR or even Harry Potter books, G.R.R Martin's style feels like something high-schooler would write.
But, the story itself is very interesting and as someone mentioned above, characters actually die. Most of the characters have two sides to their characters, no black/white crap.
Whole story feels like something that could've happened. Most other fantasy books, while easy to dive into, still have that "yeah, just a fantasy" feel to them. Martin uses simple prose and tells a good story. Tolkein definitely had better writing, whereas Rowling definitely did not.
People always shortsell Rowling's writing talent.
She wrote her first Harry Potter book for kids. After that she seamlessly lets the story grow to match the age of her audience.
I really like the ASOIF series but i will be honest, his writing style is not impressive.
GRRM's story is impressive because of how complex it is, but not convoluted. One can still grasp all the hundreds of characters and their motivations.
He has a gift for writing convincing characters and can make characters grow with an ease that makes any author jealous.
He never writes a very clever spin on words, you won't often read something that makes you go "ooh that is so clever." His talent is suffecient to tell the impressive story that he created.
His strength is in his story, not his writing style.
You can complain about his writing style but the worst insult you can make is that it's suffecient. To suggest that it is horrible to the degree that it is unreadable is simply not true. Some people consider themselves a little to much of a literature critic.
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I agree with you 100%. I always have huge problems starting with his books because his writing is honestly quite bad, but at some point the story drags me in and I don't notice it anymore. One thing I remember especially is:
He said:
She said:
He said:
etc. That is so incredibly bad for someone who lives off being an author ><
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Pros:
Everyone dies
Cons:
Everyone dies
no really, its both a curse and a blessing.
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I'm currently reading The Book of the New Sun right now.
To those who read both Book of the New Sun and Song of Ice and Fire, which did you like better?
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I had the Same Problem you have. Started Reading Reading the First Book years ago, havent Finished it (yet?). Some Storylines were simply too boring and as you Said its Slow Overall. I read about 1/2 to 2/3.
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I feel like this with Lovecraft. Everyone loves Lovecraft, but when he describes every horror in 40 pages as being "cosmic and unexplainable", I feel like I'm reading the same odd page over and over again.
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At the end of the day it's just fantasy, so you kind of have to accept it's probably not going to have much in the way of literary merit. The first three books were great when I was 17, the last two were average fantasy. His prose is weak, and the only time he puts any effort into descriptive writing is when it's about food.
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I love the characters and the way he goes around all fanatsy clichés, well written, very good storyline, ...
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I like the books because they make me hungry, horny and make me wonder if I had the courage and wit to play the game of thrones.
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I liked Shogun, but James Clavell was a little too fixated on cock for my liking.
I love the HBO series Game of Thrones, but I'm scared to read the books cause I don't want to spoiler myself!
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EPT
