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SeaSwift

Scotland4486 Posts

December 23 2011 16:40 GMT

I'll start off by saying that I'm an MC fanboy and heavily biased, so don't look for objectiveness here:

1) (P)

oGsMC

The BossToss. The Protoss President. The Kratoss Protoss. MC has returned, and looks like a beast. After a disappointing middle of the year descent into mediocrity, the 2base King has returned and is looking for blood.

He dropped out of GSL entirely after losing 1-2 to a relatively unknown Code A player, (Z)

Monster, who had done nothing of note before this series and has done nothing much since. Since then, MC blitzed through MLG Orlando, only finally being halted by HuK, who had a 2-1 lead on him from Group stages. His re-entry into Code S took him through the Group stages with two dominating wins over (T)

Ryung but he was halted by sC in the Ro16.

After that? Only coming 3rd/4th in the Blizzard Cup, the prestigious GSL round-up to the year.

But enough of his results. The most interesting side to a player is his, well, play. MC's PvT has looked solid since forever, with only (T)

PuMa's 1-1-1 and (T)

MVP's Marine/Tank play early game exposing flaws in it. But then, nobody looked solid against these.

PvP? His highest winrate, with over 75%, but most of those are from a long time ago. These days, he consistently wins most games, but still loses to players like Mana, Inori and HuK on a regular basis. Suffice to say, PvP is no longer MC's pride and joy, but then there really is no PvP king at the moment.

And PvZ? Hmm. It looked really stagnant and dull until recently, with his timings and strategy being figured out. However, upon his most recent return to Korea, MC has practised his ass off, it seems. He has invented new(er) timing attacks, plays far more map-dependant and still throws everyone a curveball at times (Carriers, in a semi-final? Really?). But the money question is: will it last? Honestly, I don't think so. Over time, players will figure out his new timings, just like they did his old ones and things like the FFE -> 4gate Zealot +1 timing. He will have to continually redefine and reshape his timing attacks, or else switch to a different playstyle altogether. But, at the time of writing, he seems to have recovered his mojo at least, and currently tops the Protoss leaderboard.

2) (P)

FXOz

The Wizard of Oz!

A relative nobody going into GSL October, Oz surprised everyone except, seemingly, the FXO house, going nearly undefeated on his road to the finals, dropping only 2 games in 4 sets, and destroying a hapless (P)

Sage in PvP. From there, he looked set to take on (Z)

Curious in a furious head to head battle...

...which he lost 0-4. He must have lost heart, not been feeling well, or just died inside. Curious rolled him. It was one of those sets where the score really does reflect the games.

Since then, he somehow pulled out all the stops and pulled off some impressive PvT in both GSL and WCG Prelims, doing really well in both. Eventually he was stopped by, well, MVP in WCG (no comment) and by (T)

Jjakji in GSL. It seems ironic to me that Oz first posted good results and won as a complete unknown, and was then defeated by the guy in the Ro4 who was not... well, known.

These are Oz's only real accomplishments, but that is not what I find impressive. It's the creativity, the gamesense and the raw skill that make Oz a joy to watch and highly deserving of No. 2 on my Protoss Power Ranking. His PvP is crisp and his originality prompted a thread or two here in TL's strategy section. His PvT is up there right behind MC, with only his small sample size preventing him from being hailed as one of the best in the world. And PvZ? Nobody in GSL is good at PvZ.

3) (P)

Puzzle

A pretty obvious choice. After a dominating run through Code A, beating Jjakji's teammate (P)

Tassadar in GSL July, Puzzle only really achieved a great deal of fame when his APM allegedly reached over 700 in a PvZ. He also reached the Ro8 in the most recent GSL before being annihilated by the eventual winner of the tournament (Jjakji).

However, look beyond these results. Perhaps it was just because he was in Code A, but he used to look really scary. Now, being in Code S has made him look like just another damn good player, but nothing special. This change from terrifying to standard magically coincided with his switch to SlayerS, which leads me to draw another conclusion:

The SlayerS team have really good Terrans (obviously), but their coaching for Zerg and Protoss is not just mediocre, it is abysmal. If I concluded this only from Puzzle's lack of domination in Code S I would be foolish, but I do not: Alicia was heralded as the next best Protoss, but he fell by the wayside swiftly after a couple of appearances. Coca apparently had the best ZvP in the world, but, we can't really see that any more - although I would make Coca the exception.

But it's not so much specific examples of poor Zerg or Protoss players which make me think this: it is more the lack of really good Zerg or Protoss players compared to Terrans. Go, look at their "notable" player roster. The proportions of Z/P/T are pretty equal. But then look at their results, and their current form. SlayerS literally has 3 decent non-Terrans in GSL at the moment - and one of them is (Z)

YuGiOh.

So how much of Puzzle's recent lack of confidence can be attributed to him, and how much to the team? I don't know, but either way, he hasn't shown the quality of play or the results of MC or Oz.

4) (P)

HuK

Maybe this is a controversial one - after all, Huk's never done fabulously in GSL, and is definitely one of the most inconsistent and streaky members of a very inconsistent and streaky race. No Protoss player has retained utter dominance of their race in SC2 so far, not to the extent of MVP or Nestea. But even with that in mind, it can't be denied: HuK has big swings up and down. At his best, he conquered MLG Orlando, dropping a total of 5 games over the tournament including the group stages. He won 4 series of PvP against world-class players while only dropping 1 (and that was a tense 2-1), and given how infamously coinflippy PvP appears to be this shows a remarkable sense of stability and consistency.

And here we get to the main issue with HuK - he is so... strange. He feels like a Dark Horse in every tournament he enters, with a chance of doing really well or performing abysmally. Put it down to jetlag, practice or steroids, there's no denying that HuK has a very different feel to his play than any other Protoss. He can show periods of stability and then go lose to (Z)

DarKFoRcE in an obscure EU tournament. He can dominate MC (who has a 75% winrate PvP - in Korea) and then lose 4-1 to (P)

elfi in Finland.

Because of this weird side to HuK, he can't be in the Top 3, and unless he suddenly becomes either a) far more consistent or b) plays godly games, I don't think he ever will be. That doesn't mean he's bad - at times he has been startlingly creative, he is always loveable and will without doubt leave his mark on the scene. But he's one of the few players I don't think has a chance of rising up like (Z)

Leenock has and dominating.

But then, I've been wrong before. Speaking of which, here's number 5:

5) (P)

NaNiwa

If HuK was a controversial 4, this will almost certainly be a controversial 5.

Until MLG Providence, I thought Naniwa was another (P)

SaSe: one of the best foreigners, but with no hopes of going deep and making an impact. I thought (T)

ThorZaIN would always remain in the spotlight over Naniwa, and I even thought his play might go through a phase of being an embarassment to all our foreigner hopes.

How fucking wrong I was.

At Providence, he turned up for the Invitational along such august company as (Z)

IdrA, MVP and (Z)

NesTea. Of the four players, Naniwa had the lowest chance of winning by a large margin. I won't mince words: Naniwa was expected to roll over and die and MVP would win yet another tournament. He didn't. Instead, he displayed some great games, and most of all, something we rarely see often from any team other than SlayerS: game preparation that was as clear as a Nydus worm's eruption.

Naniwa exploited MVP's weaknesses. Just like the somewhat famous go.go's games vs Bisu in BW (which I wasn't around for, unfortunately), Naniwa found that MVP played too safe and too standard against relatively unknown players. Naniwa played greedily, expanding early and teching quickly, while MVP did not make the killing blow several times when he had the chance. That is not to say that it was easy - both players were jetlagged, and the games were all fairly close at points, but Naniwa suddenly looked, by the third game, like he had an edge against the best player in the world.

And against Nestea, most of what happened is well known: Naniwa played quite a safe style, and on the most part waited for Nestea to slip up. And slip up Professor Tea did. It looked like Nestea had botched it, but I'm going to go out on a limb here, and many people will disagree with me here: I'm going to say that Naniwa prepared for Nestea just as much as he did for MVP.

Naniwa knew that both he and Nestea would be jetlagged (they were on the same plane, after all!). He knew that the games would not be a challenge to see who could be the most daring, the most inventive or the most cunning. He knew that the winner would be the player who made fewer mistakes. So he played in a way which used and abused that fact, playing as standard and secure as he could, and in the struggle managed to gain victory. ThorZain might be known for his preparation and planning, but it seems Naniwa has learned more than just mental fortitude from his TSL 3 defeat.

Then there's the main tournament itself. Naniwa would once again face Nestea, and once again Nestea would let Naniwa's psi-blades beneath his previously impervious chitinous plating. How? My best guess is that the games were not just of SC2; they were of nerves and a battle between their states of mind. Nestea had already lost to Naniwa, and has a history of losing consistently to people who have beaten him before (hello, MVP!). While many other players can come back after a defeat and learn from their mistakes, I hypothise that Nestea was so used to crushing scrub foreigners that he did not know how to take it. The pausing probably didn't help, but I'm going to steer clear of that particular can of worms.

From there onwards, Naniwa grasped victory from HuK, then somehow beat a ZvP beast, (Z)

DRG, and ultimately apparently had a mental breakdown in the finals against Leenock. But a 2nd place finish in a stacked tournament takes you out of foreigner scrub-land, in my books at least, and into the realm of heroes.

Let's face it: at Providence, Naniwa was on fire. But what next? Nothing, that's what. Blizzcup was a disaster, with Nani not getting a single map. While some games were close, he did not have a hope of getting through. Presumably, that's why he did what he did: for more information, go through the Automated Ban List and check the threads people were banned for.

Naniwa is a tentative number 5. I wanted to see how he would do in Code S, but I guess now we'll see how he'll do in Code A. I want him to do well in GSL - after all, the format rewards planning, and I've already placed my bets on planning being Naniwa's strength. He didn't do so well before, but I think Naniwa has the potential to be one of the best if he can get into the right mindset.

6) (P)

HerO

OK, this is TeamLiquid.net, so there was no way HerO could be outside of the Top 10. I know people will wonder why this guy is below Naniwa, and below Huk. HerO has a winning record against HuK, doesn't he? HerO's won more and proved himself more than Naniwa, hasn't he?

To put it simply, I think HerO is overrated. Don't get me wrong: he has some of the best micro in the game, and sometimes I watch him play PvZ and think suddenly (P)

Bisu has switched to SC2 (yes, that is hyperbole - please don't jump on me BW fanatics!). But he has two big flaws in his play:

1) He has far too variable PvT.

2) His play is too cutesy.

For the first one, let me explain: it looks like HerO tries to play PvT like his PvZ, all small bunches of units, aggression and odd unit compositions. But this leads to really weird scenarios where sometimes he just fails. Completely. Like, suddenly he looks absolutely mediocre. Luckily, he doesn't always do this and can pull it all together at events like Dreamhack and 4-3 one of the scariest TvPers outside of Code S in probably the second most epic series of PvT I've seen yet in SC2.

But even then, HerO just figuratively faceplanted in some of the games. Game 6: Goes for a fast Nexus, then just outright dies to what he calls a "cheese rush" after the tournament is over. I suspect it was just a mistranslation, or else "cheese" means something a bit different in Korea (more than likely), but either way, it did not go by my understanding of cheese. Puma saw the fast Nexus and reacted to it by throwing down a bunch of barracks. It wasn't a blind rush, it was specifically designed to outright kill a fast Nexus. It worked, and HerO looked really fragile because of it.

Unlike Naniwa vs Leenock in MLG, this was not a simple case of not scouting well enough or feeling safer than he was. HerO just did not have enough stuff to kill Puma's forces, and died because of it. And I think that sums up HerO's PvT in general: sometimes tense and fun, at other times he just looks like he's playing the wrong matchup.

As for number 2, it's simple. He has a really engaging, fun and micro-intensive playstyle, but that is a downside as well. His style looked fresh for a time, and is still jawdropping, but it doesn't look immortal any more. Unlike MC, who acts like a hungry shark out for fresh surfer breakfast, HerO seems more like an overly aggressive seagull. Fast, annoying and if you are very unlucky quite deadly (story for another time), but not tough enough to truly make the cut. His style looks cool and works in certain matchups at certain times, but looks to ultimately have the same problem as DRG's old ZvT, which consisted solely of fast 2base Lair into Mutas - once you know what to look for, the playstyle can be "solved". For instance, the 4gate +1 Zealot timing after a fast Nexus was solved by timing the Roach Warren so that 12 or more Roaches were out and ready to acidify the attack at the right timing. However, while this timing can be solved and then more will crop up, HerO will have to completely reinvent his style at times in order to remain competitive, which is not quite so easy.

He also has a problem with nerves in Korea, it seems. But that can be solved, as long as he can switch his mentallity around. I also know very little about exactly what makes him nervous, so I can't really comment at length on it. Suffice to say, that's another issue he faces.

In summary: cutesy, fun, skilful and definitely awesome to watch, but not a true contender for the throne of Protoss.

7) (P)

Brown

I'm guessing a few people will be wondering why a guy with only 9 games played is 7th on a Power Rank. And this is where the Power Rank gets subjective. For Protoss pros at least, there are a clear well-known Top 5 or 6. But after that, there are so many notables who aren't quite there yet that any choice will be almost completely opinion on play. And my opinion on Brown's play is that it is really good.

Currently on a 6 game win streak, Brown has not faced the toughest opponents in the one Code A he played in, but they are also by no means the weakest. (Z)

LosirA is (or was, at least) a ZvP specialist. (T)

Ryung has looked lost against the top Protosses in TvP for a while, but he is a SlayerS Terran, almost a synonym for "tough" in Korea, and he doesn't have any issues with mid-tier Protoss. Brown has lost a total of 2 games ever, and those were in May. In a PvP. Brown is one of only 3 players (the others being SuperNova and fOrGG) this year to go through all of Code A without losing a game.

But it is not so much the stats which make Brown look good - after all, stats don't say much with only 9 games, and only 6 recent games. It is more the flair and intelligence with which Brown plays which sets him apart from the rest. Ever since Khaldor and Moletrap announced in a game vs Losira that Brown was playing terribly and letting Losira win, and Brown followed that up by annihilating Losira, I took notice of Brown's playstyle.

He seems to play PvZ in a similar way to HuK, trying to take fast thirds on relatively low tech/army, and then go from there. This contrasts heavily with the MC/Naniwa style of play, which stays on 2 bases for far longer and tries to get some tech up before a 3rd. But whereas HuK then goes for some Gateway/Twilight council shenanigans, Brown goes for heavy tech AFTER a 3rd, while playing defensively. This goes on the confident assumption that he can beat Zerg in the lategame - an assumption no other Protoss seems willing to make in televised matches. The Infestor/Broodlord deathball has caused a lot of problems in ZvP of late, but Brown's reliance on a heavy switch in Stargate play, including the Mothership, looks really solid and really unique.

As for PvT? Well, he outplayed Ryung. In 2 games he just looked better than Ryung in almost every way. Ryung went for some weird plays in both games, and made more mistakes than Brown. Similar to Naniwa vs Nestea/MVP, Brown won not because his own play was sparkly or fancy, but because it was sound. With only 2 games, it is hard to conclude much about Brown's PvT, other than "it doesn't suck like (P)

JYP's". And PvP, we've not seen any recent stuff from him, but then PvP is pretty much a micro/positioning battle at the moment. And in both other matchups, Brown's micro and positioning looks top notch.

Like Naniwa earlier on, Brown is a number 7 more out of potential than just from results at the moment.

8) (P)

Sage

Sorry for the massive image, I couldn't find a smaller one.

Sage. Artosis' 4th mancrush. The BrainToss.

This guy emerged onto the scene a while back, in July, all-killing team fOu (now Korean FXO). He defeated asd, sC (now on MVP) and then Leenock, as well as an unknown Sirius in a crazy PvP involving a lot of Phoenix.

Everyone knows this guy's PvZ style - a lot of Phoenix, multitasking, Chargelots et al. Similar to HerO, except Sage's actually works consistently in Korea. Sage's PvT also works in a similar way, with Phoenix a frequent sight. However, his PvP has let him down. He has a 40% winrate in the matchup, and considering that the sometimes coinflippy nature of PvP naturally draws winrates closer to 50%, this low percentage means more here than it might for PvZ or PvT.

Still: he has shown excellent play, crisp decision making and a style of play that suits the "new wave" of Protoss, including HerO, Sage, JYP etc.

But he just can't break in Code S. As already mentioned, he came into the scene in July, and STILL hasn't made it to Code S once yet. It seems like there's some curse against it: Oz slaughtered him in a one-sided Code A finals, an Oz who would then make it to the semifinals of Code S. In November, he was out in the first round to a nerd-stomping fOrGG, the hope for Brood War elitists everywhere. But still, excuses or no, he just has not posted the results to be in the Top 5. Perhaps it's unfair: after all, HerO is higher, and he's been even more lacklustre in GSL. The difference is, unfortunately, that HerO has had the opportunity to show his true colours in foreign tournaments, and that makes a big change to my perceptions of his skill level.

I will say that of all the players in the Protoss Power Rank, Sage looks to be the most consistent. Perhaps not consistently excellent, but he doesn't seem to have complete mindfucks like HuK, or deep slumps like MC. Of all the players, Sage is the one I expect to still be on the Power Rank 6 months from now, still beating his way through Code A.

9) Parting

[image loading]

To give you some idea of how new this guy is, the TLPD button for posting doesn't work for his name. Instead, it takes you to some obscure BW Zerg player. ST_Parting made it to Code A in the most recent GSL, beating BBongBBong in the prelims and then comfortably 2-1ing (T)

TOP in a PvT, before crushing another of Artosis' dreams, the one and only (T)

Cliiiiiiiiiiiiide. (P)

SangHo was then toppled for Parting to make it through to Code S.

Parting has a similarly small sample size to Brown, but the difference here is that Parting has not looked as indomitable. While Brown's record is 7-2, Parting's is 9-7. So while Parting did make it to Code S, he did not do so in such a strong fashion as Brown.

Aside from Clide, Parting also had relatively easy opponents. TOP just looked bad after his Finals appearance against MVP, there's just no way round it, and TOP always had mediocre TvP to start with. SangHo is one of the old crowd of Protosses - along with HongUn, San and InCa, SangHo is a Protoss who was lucky to make it to Code S, showed some decent results once in Code S and then got lucky again for a while, somehow beating (T)

Polt in one of the most disappointing TvPs the former TvP master ever played. While SangHo is probably still a level above a number of foreigners, he only shows good games every once in a while. It was no surprise that Parting could defeat SangHo, but even then it was a tight 2-1.

To summarise: relatively unknown, looks pretty good, shown some good games, knows what he's doing. Deserves to be in Code S, but I never expect him to get out of the Ro16.

10) (P)

MaNa

"WHAT?!" I hear you cry, "a foreigner who has never played in the GSL, in the Top 10?!" To which I calmly respond, "take your pills and hear me out".

I would have liked to put any number of Protosses living in Korea in Top 10 - SaSe, JYP, InCa, Genius. But all of them have gaping flaws: (P)

SaSe's highlight to his career was defeating a slumping Bomber at MLG. And that's about it. JYP... well, take a look at this. You can't be a Top 10 Protoss while on a 14 loss streak, however godly your PvP and PvZ might be. (P)

InCa... well, have you ever heard of the InCa rule? (P)

Genius... one good Up/Down Stage session isn't enough, and Genius has managed to fail in the few foreigner tournaments he's entered with the exception of Blizzcon.

So here we are. Mana somehow in the Top 10 of Protosses. But by no means is Mana a substitute, a placeholder for a decent Protoss to come along and show us how it's done: Mana has been really good for over a year, coming second at the first ever Dreamhack Winter SC2 tournament.

Dreamhack always manages to be good for Mana - in Assembly Summer 2011, Mana went 6-1 in the Group Stages against such prestigious opposition as HuK, before beating (T)

NaDa 2-0 and ending up second.

Just as Dreamhack success is a continuing theme for Mana, so is coming runner-up. In IPL 2, he came 3rd to (P)

White-Ra and (Z)

Nerchio. Look at his Liquipedia page - look at the medals.

More recently, Mana has 2-0d MC (75% winrate) at ESWC, coming 2nd to a rising (Z)

Stephano. At IEM Cologne IV, he 2-0ed Puma, SaSe and 2-1ed Stephano, eventually coming 3rd.

Spot the pattern here? Great play for most of the tournament, before faltering at the last hurdle. And these are the 2 reasons why Mana is not higher on the Power Rank: He has never played in Korea, and he has a record of coming 2nd or 3rd. He has proved himself against some Koreans, but always on his home ground, always when the odds are with him.

Still, my prediction for Mana: If he ever takes the leap and goes to Korea, he could shoot up the Power Rank faster than an Oracle on crack.

Predguin

Canada188 Posts

December 23 2011 16:48 GMT

Hell yeah, I'm so happy that people are starting to notice Oz. He's a total beast and I think he deserves the recognition. His Liquipedia page is pretty chock-full with info and pictures due partly to my wonky fanboy meddling and other people's much more refined additions.

I think HerO's quickly on the rise, though we have to wait to see. (Though his game against Luvsic earlier was great, though Luvsic kind of took too long to do um, anything). HuK and NaniWa would be good choices too but they're both a bit unstable.

Good job with the ranking!

Bibbit

Canada5377 Posts

December 23 2011 16:53 GMT

JYP never gets enough respect imo. T_T

Still, I just about agree. Only thing for me is I'd stick JYP over Puzzle.

SeaSwift

Scotland4486 Posts

December 23 2011 16:56 GMT

On December 24 2011 01:53 Bibbit wrote:
JYP never gets enough respect imo. T_T

Still, I just about agree. Only thing for me is I'd stick JYP over Puzzle.

This is why JYP isn't above Puzzle.

If it was down to PvZ and PvP only, it would be a really close call. But given JYP's PvT record there is no way he can be a Top 3 Protoss.

pred470r

Bulgaria3265 Posts

December 23 2011 17:00 GMT

I expected to see bw toss rankings and I am pretty disappointed, but you did a good job nevertheless.

SeaSwift

Scotland4486 Posts

December 23 2011 17:03 GMT

On December 24 2011 02:00 pred470r wrote:
I expected to see bw toss rankings and I am pretty disappointed, but you did a good job nevertheless.

Sorry -_-;

Should I have put a tag in the title? If so, and you reading this are a mod, could you change that please?

Bibbit

Canada5377 Posts

December 23 2011 17:34 GMT

On December 24 2011 02:03 SeaSwift wrote:

Show nested quote +

Sorry -_-;

Should I have put a tag in the title? If so, and you reading this are a mod, could you change that please?

Ehh I wouldnt worry about it too much. I feel like Sc2 is enough of a majority here that its usually BW that needs a tag

. I always use one for BW anyway.

And good point about JYP, I had never noticed. I just knew he had sick good PvZ (best in the world imo, or tied with MC anyway) and really good PvP.

Seeker

Where dat snitch at?36999 Posts

December 23 2011 17:41 GMT

A power ranking with only 3 ppl? Come on SeaSwift, u can do better

monk

United States8476 Posts

December 23 2011 17:46 GMT

Pretty good so far, but I'd go to at least 10 if you wanna do a real power ranking. Other notable Protosses include Brown, Parting, Hero, JYP, Creator, Sage, Genius, and Huk.

SeaSwift

Scotland4486 Posts

December 23 2011 17:55 GMT

#10

On December 24 2011 02:41 Seeker wrote:
A power ranking with only 3 ppl? Come on SeaSwift, u can do better

Well, I wanted to see if people would notice at all. There's not much doing a 10 person Power Rank if nobody gives a fuck

I will do better! Just started the holidays, so I should have some time for it.

EDIT: Right, screw a social life. Tonight I'm going to add the other 7 to this, unless I die or am otherwise incapacitated before then.

awwnuts07

United States621 Posts

December 23 2011 17:56 GMT

#11

On December 24 2011 02:00 pred470r wrote:
I expected to see bw toss rankings and I am pretty disappointed, but you did a good job nevertheless.

Here, let me help you with that. As of this moment, Khan protosses>everyone. the end

I wish I could put LiquidHerO up there since he's one of my favorite tosses, but he falls victim to his nerves way too often.

EDIT: Can we add White-Ra because his manners make him blindingly awesome even if he's not winning tournies?

Spray

United States402 Posts

December 23 2011 18:04 GMT

#12

On top of Oz being a boss, he is hilarious when hes drunk...

FlaShFTW

United States10106 Posts

December 23 2011 18:18 GMT

#13

Here is Naniwa????

Only 3 people so too small of a PR. maybe make it 5 people.

The_Templar

your Country52797 Posts

December 23 2011 18:24 GMT

#14

Will we see HuK in this list? Or do you have other players in mind you feel are more worthy?

SeaSwift

Scotland4486 Posts

December 23 2011 18:36 GMT

#15

On December 24 2011 03:24 TehTemplar wrote:
Will we see HuK in this list? Or do you have other players in mind you feel are more worthy?

Yes. Both HuK and Naniwa are in the Top 10, IMO.

Currently doing the write up. Don't expect anything great, guys. This is my first time ^_^

Solidarity

United States78 Posts

December 23 2011 18:54 GMT

#16

If the next 7 are written up anything like the first three, then it'll be a good read, albeit assuredly accompanied by some friendly disagreements

Bippzy

United States1466 Posts

December 23 2011 19:04 GMT

#17

I've always wanted to say this so ill say it here:

MC-The napoleon bonaparte protoss.
Toss players: we dont have any good toss, we need some(plural)
Toss players: oh shit theres MC we only need him! He's our emperor! Our boss toss!
MC terrorizes all of euro-ahem i mean the GSL for a while and wins two GSL's nut then gets exiled to an islan- i mean beaten out of the GSL.
MC gets out of islan- i mean uh into the Gsl through MLg and had his 100 day reign before he falls again..

Right now, we're on his 100 day reign, and im just waiting for him to fall permanently, or to stop being a metaphor for napoleon bonaparte.

FlyingDike

United States221 Posts

December 23 2011 19:12 GMT

#18

Naniwa's play in the blizzard cup was really impressive although he lost, and HuK dropped to code A recently..Making a protoss power rank is so much harder than the other races, but so far you're doing a great job!

Seeker

Where dat snitch at?36999 Posts

December 23 2011 19:36 GMT

#19

On December 24 2011 02:55 SeaSwift wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well, I wanted to see if people would notice at all. There's not much doing a 10 person Power Rank if nobody gives a fuck

Lol!

I SHOULD DO A TERRAN ONE THEN!!!

SeaSwift

Scotland4486 Posts

December 23 2011 21:04 GMT

#20

On December 24 2011 04:36 Seeker wrote:

Show nested quote +

Lol!

I SHOULD DO A TERRAN ONE THEN!!!

Go for it

Just don't make it too good, I want to get some TL karma

EDIT: Oh yeah, please give feedback. As much as I love the stars and compliments, constructive criticism is more useful. Don't just say "it's awful, too much writing" - please go into more detail than that if you can.

K3Nyy

United States1961 Posts

December 23 2011 21:59 GMT

#21

I'd put Hero and JYP before Huk and Naniwa. Hero has been really consistent in foreign tournaments which you can't really say the same for Huk. Naniwa showed some amazing play but not sure if it'll last.

JYP is just really really good, even if his PvT is meh. Also, something to take into account is that he played PvT during a time where 1-1-1 was dominate and prepatch EMP.

SeaSwift

Scotland4486 Posts

December 23 2011 23:08 GMT

#22

Well, you know that part where I said I would get them done unless I died or something?

I lied.

I'll do the rest tomorrow, I promise. And Seeker, I'm holding you to the Terran one.

happyness

United States2400 Posts

December 23 2011 23:15 GMT

#23

On December 24 2011 06:59 K3Nyy wrote:
I'd put Hero and JYP before Huk and Naniwa. Hero has been really consistent in foreign tournaments which you can't really say the same for Huk. Naniwa showed some amazing play but not sure if it'll last.

JYP is just really really good, even if his PvT is meh. Also, something to take into account is that he played PvT during a time where 1-1-1 was dominate and prepatch EMP.

Ya, Nani and Huk should definitely be below JYP and Hero, though Huk and Nani should be on the list. Just not that high up.

Hero is easily the best player on his team (well, maybe not Zenio, but he's better than huk for sure).

Jedclark

United Kingdom903 Posts

December 23 2011 23:27 GMT

#24

HerO is my favourite Protoss, and I think he is also the best Protoss right now.

Sabu113

United States11047 Posts

December 24 2011 00:01 GMT

#25

One of the best men for a Toss power rank.

The first line does disservice to yourself or atleast MC. MC's been clearly the most dominant and consistent protoss out there. He looked very impressive in the Blizzard cup run with the exception of that.... that thing on Calm before the storm. I think it's worthwhile to mention how map dependent PvZ might seem to be as Calm before the storm should be a win for MC 9/10 times while dual site and crossfire are generally difficult (but not as difficult as they used to be) maps to succeed on. Without that botch MC would have been competitive going into the finals as pros seemed to have been playing up his return (combined with a month of tvp ineptitude).

Bold very bold with Oz. I suppose the GSL deserves it's credit but we have seen streaks of results from other tosses (Sage, Puzzle, Tassadar in order of promise) while returning ot the average mediocrity. His loss to Jijjaki was more self destruction than anything (though Jjijak does cool things).

Now with regards to the foreign hopes.... I really want to say that Nani deserves berth above huk (and I wish I could say puzzle but lack of GSL experience keeps you out of the top 3) but I'm not sure if I can justify that. I want to say that Nani looks more consistent and stable than Huk as well as in better form in the past months. Frankly I think it's more of an issue that Huk's form has looked so poor in the recent months. argh. Suppose I have to concede that one to you.

MCDayC

United Kingdom14464 Posts

December 24 2011 00:08 GMT

#26

On December 24 2011 08:15 happyness wrote:

Show nested quote +

What has JYP done? He has good PvZ, but his PvT is tteeeeeerrrririiiibbbblee. Naniwa is better than him, for sure. Good list, btw.

The_Templar

your Country52797 Posts

December 24 2011 00:09 GMT

#27

On December 24 2011 04:04 Bippzy wrote:
I've always wanted to say this so ill say it here:

MC-The napoleon bonaparte protoss.
Toss players: we dont have any good toss, we need some(plural)
Toss players: oh shit theres MC we only need him! He's our emperor! Our boss toss!
MC terrorizes all of euro-ahem i mean the GSL for a while and wins two GSL's nut then gets exiled to an islan- i mean beaten out of the GSL.
MC gets out of islan- i mean uh into the Gsl through MLg and had his 100 day reign before he falls again..

Right now, we're on his 100 day reign, and im just waiting for him to fall permanently, or to stop being a metaphor for napoleon bonaparte.

Very, very good, sir.

@OP, Me like. Keep it up!

RGnt

Finland100 Posts

December 24 2011 00:30 GMT

#28

I am MC fan boy my self but I wouldn't stick it 1st in that list. And IMO it requires bit more Genius in there! As of right now, boss toss should be under our dear foreigner tosses (Okey that sounds wrong to me

). Just my 2 cents! Good job anyways ^^'

double620

China804 Posts

December 24 2011 01:18 GMT

#29

On December 24 2011 01:48 Predguin wrote:
Hell yeah, I'm so happy that people are starting to notice Oz. He's a total beast and I think he deserves the recognition. His Liquipedia page is pretty chock-full with info and pictures due partly to my wonky fanboy meddling and other people's much more refined additions.

I think HerO's quickly on the rise, though we have to wait to see. (Though his game against Luvsic earlier was great, though Luvsic kind of took too long to do um, anything). HuK and NaniWa would be good choices too but they're both a bit unstable.

Good job with the ranking!

Oz's ability is there and there is no doubt about that. The reason why ppl tend to kind of forget him I think is becoz he does not have as many oppotunities as other tosses here to showcase his skills in foreign events.
About Hero's game against Luvsic, do not get me wrong, I do believe Hero has great PvZ. However, Luvsic made lots of mistakes in the game and that contribute to the game and made Hero look good in the game. I am sure top zerg players like DRG and Stephano would at least not making that many mistakes.

double620

China804 Posts

December 24 2011 01:20 GMT

#30

On December 24 2011 01:53 Bibbit wrote:
JYP never gets enough respect imo. T_T

Still, I just about agree. Only thing for me is I'd stick JYP over Puzzle.

He just needs better PvT before we put him here I guess. It is kind of wired, JYP's micro in pvp and pvz is sick good. But not in his pvt. I know they are different mu, but after all it is just micro.

double620

China804 Posts

December 24 2011 01:23 GMT

#31

On December 24 2011 03:04 Spray wrote:
On top of Oz being a boss, he is hilarious when hes drunk...

really? How can u know that??/

Itsmedudeman

United States19229 Posts

December 24 2011 02:51 GMT

#32

Meh, puzzle only JUST got to a ro8 last season while every season before he got knocked out of the ro32 and his few foreign tourny's have been underwhelming for a "top 3 protoss". I think he needs to do more before he can prove whether it was a fluke or not. Agreed with Oz, but I also think Hero should be ahead of Huk right now. Even though dreamhack and NASL aren't as prestigious, he made a finals and won them in a row.

SeaSwift

Scotland4486 Posts

December 24 2011 11:57 GMT

#33

OK, Power Rank fully updated to Top 10!

Please post criticisms, opinions and remember to rate the article!

Itsmedudeman

United States19229 Posts

December 24 2011 12:12 GMT

#34

Still honestly don't know how you can justify Huk at #4 with his showings these past few months. He won Orlando through PvPs and he's the leading example of how volatile PvP can be when he ended up losing to Elfi and Hasuobs. His last like 4 tournaments have been outside top 15 range performances.

I also like how you think Hero is overrated and then say mana is the next protoss god. It's obvious Mana's potential is not nearly as high as Hero's is. His play is just too slow and defensive, and he ended up losing to Morrow 3-0 in NASL. It's one thing to praise someone's achievements (over the course of like what, 6 months here?) and then completely ignore the failures.

sebsejr

213 Posts

December 24 2011 13:53 GMT

#35

wauw very well written! love your choises! your awesome!

would probably fit JYP and Genius in there though. Maybe instead of MaNa and Sage? or MaNa and Parting. Other than that, i love the list! <3
can u do one for Terran and Zerg aswell? would love that!

RGnt

Finland100 Posts

December 24 2011 15:47 GMT

#36

On December 24 2011 10:23 double620 wrote:

Show nested quote +

really? How can u know that??/

There's where he "coaches" desRow while drunken

monk

United States8476 Posts

December 24 2011 16:27 GMT

#37

Well written. You defend your choices well even though they're not the particular choices I would make. Specifically I would put Sage lower and JYP higher solely based on recent results. I'd also add a Close But No Cigar(CNBC) section.

United States2586 Posts

December 24 2011 17:03 GMT

#38

I can't agree with how the players were placed- not that I had different players in mind, but theres a handfull of toss who take turns stealing the spot light. There hasn't really been a consistent top protoss that dominate like MVP/Nestea as you said. Still, it was a good read, and looked like you have a lot of research/games going into it. You should do more of these.

SeaSwift

Scotland4486 Posts

December 24 2011 17:23 GMT

#39

On December 25 2011 01:27 NrGmonk wrote:
Well written. You defend your choices well even though they're not the particular choices I would make. Specifically I would put Sage lower and JYP higher solely based on recent results. I'd also add a Close But No Cigar(CNBC) section.

Thanks. I was thinking of putting an Honourable Mention in there, but realised that if I started doing that I'd probably end up ranting on even more, and it looked like it was breaching the point of digestibility anyway.

iSometric

2221 Posts

December 24 2011 17:35 GMT

#40

Number 2-10 should also be MC.

SeaSwift

Scotland4486 Posts

December 24 2011 17:55 GMT

#41

On December 24 2011 22:53 sebsejr wrote:
wauw very well written! love your choises! your awesome!

would probably fit JYP and Genius in there though. Maybe instead of MaNa and Sage? or MaNa and Parting. Other than that, i love the list! <3
can u do one for Terran and Zerg aswell? would love that!

I would love to, but I'm not qualified at all. As I said, I'm a Protoss fanboy (ever since I saw Husky/HD casting White-Ra vs TLO on Youtube), and while I could probably make arguments for about the top 5 of Terran and Zerg, I don't know talent when I see it, and can barely list off 10 Zergs, let alone write about them all.

I know Seeker was probably only joking when he talked about the Terran one, but I'll see if I can pressure him into it

After all, you can't spend your whole life making wonderful LR threads.

Bibbit

Canada5377 Posts

December 24 2011 17:56 GMT

#42

I know I keep coming off as a JYP fanboy (mostly because I totally am) but I really cant take this seriously anymore. Top 2-3 PvZ easily and one of the best PvPers and he's not top 10? One weak MU thats not even as week as his TLPD suggests if you actually watch the games and suddenly he's irrelevant? Silly is what it is.

/mild rage

OmniEulogy

Canada6592 Posts

December 24 2011 19:24 GMT

#43

On December 25 2011 02:56 Bibbit wrote:
I know I keep coming off as a JYP fanboy (mostly because I totally am) but I really cant take this seriously anymore. Top 2-3 PvZ easily and one of the best PvPers and he's not top 10? One weak MU thats not even as week as his TLPD suggests if you actually watch the games and suddenly he's irrelevant? Silly is what it is.

/mild rage

I have to agree. Especially after watching his games in the up and downs. Over all the list is pretty solid though good work

SeaSwift

Scotland4486 Posts

December 24 2011 19:52 GMT

#44

The problem is that "one weak MU" equals about 1/3rd of all his games. His PvZ and PvP are top notch, but you can't be considered a Top 10 Protoss when you have a 20% winrate in a matchup and are on a 14 loss streak stretching back to July. He just can't win PvT against decent players.

I know statistics aren't everything, but they do count for something. And that something is dragging an otherwise excelling JYP down like a Carrier in a pro level game.

tdt

United States3179 Posts

December 25 2011 07:09 GMT

#45

You can't be that big of a fan - MC's "2 base king", all inning and other dismissive sayings about his gameplay is complete bullshit. Or, at the very least over a year ago, when 3 gate VR and 4 gate were actually strong before their respective nerfs.. He is at his best in long macro games, he just doesn't lose them, and if you look at his loses it's when people 1 or 2 base him most notably with the 1/1/1 stuff which unfortunately he's not the best Protoss in holding.

Anyway I agree no one is close to MC that plays protoss and pretty good writeup with good ranks

Bibbit

Canada5377 Posts

December 25 2011 09:07 GMT

#46

On December 25 2011 04:52 SeaSwift wrote:

Show nested quote +

You cant be serious. Lets take a look at some more stats. You linked to Hero and Naniwa's international TLPD, intentionally no doubt, to make them look good. How about we look at Naniwa's 1-12 record overall. Or maybe Hero's 15-26 (37%). Do you think it's fair to count Naniwa's 2-1 win over Beastyqt on the same level as JYP's 0-2 loss to Bomber? Watch the bloody games for the skill of the Protoss players in question, not just how they did relative to their opponents because its not fair to treat Cloud and Jjakji as equal opponents. If JYP went to foreign events, I have no doubt he'd put up the same kind of results.

"But we can't know for sure!" Yes, I know. But it comes back to an over-reliance on statistics - watching numbers instead of games.

Hell Naniwa's actually my favourite player and I dont think he's worse than JYP or anything like that but I'm just trying to make a point here. Naniwa's 1-12 but I watched the games, they were narrow losses, and he's clearly really good. JYP is 6-22 PvT but I've watched the games (not all, admittedly

) and I assure you he's good. Be more consistent, judge people on their skill not their TLPD, that's all I'm saying.

Anyway, I think this was a fantastic write up on the whole. I just think that its entirely unjustified and, frankly, wrong to leave JYP out of a top 10 behind a player who we've seen only nine bloody times and someone who has never even played in Korea.

SeaSwift

Scotland4486 Posts

December 25 2011 11:37 GMT

#47

On December 25 2011 18:07 Bibbit wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well, I'm glad my blog is provoking discussion

Bibbit

Canada5377 Posts

December 25 2011 11:40 GMT

#48

As it should !

Hope I didnt offend you or nothing. : )

SeaSwift

Scotland4486 Posts

December 25 2011 12:41 GMT

#49

On December 25 2011 20:40 Bibbit wrote:
As it should !

Hope I didnt offend you or nothing. : )

Haha, of course not. I think it was inControL who was saying that it doesn't matter what peoples opinions are on different players and teams, as long as people have opinions and care about the game.

You clearly do, which is fantastic

We disagree, but I respect and understand your stance on it. Have a merry Christmas!

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