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We all know that the big difference between good players and pro players are their mechanics. These are so crucial if you want to be good in really any RTS game.
Now with ForGG(Fin) doing really good I decided to post my thoughts on mechanics. I've seen alot of korean's zergs use the individual hotkey setup to inject and then bind all of their hatches to the key 0.
Because it's just harder to reach the 0 key everytime you have to make units I thought that you will increase your mechanics faster by doing this. If you increase the rate that you're training your mechanics with than this means that you will be jumping up leagues way faster since especially the lower leagues are all about mechanics.
This may seem weird to you all but I do think that there is a source of truth in this. We all know that BW is a very hard game to be really good at, it's a whole different level compared to SC2. Just because you can only group one building to a hotkey and only 12 units. That's why BW will make you a better starcraft player in general because it's so much harder.
Now with SC2 being really 'easy' compared to BW I think that if you want to improve your mechanics and your general play faster I think we should make it harder for ourselves. Use individual hotkeys for bases, use more hotkeys for your units. I don't know if anyone ever posted about this before but this has been on my mind for a while now and I'd like to hear your guys opinions on it.
Excuse my for my incorrect grammer since I am not a native english speaker  .
Edit: Since alot of people seem to misinterpret this as a 'sc2 is too easy' discussion I'd like to clarify that this is a discussion about improving your mechanics by making it harder for yourself. This is purely a mechanics discussion and has nothing to do with SC2 being too easy. You have to admit that BW is way harder than SC2 though.
Thanks ~
 
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I don't agree, pro's should probably think about their hotkey setup and make an efficient one. A bit like DVORAK but for sc.
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Germany3634 Posts
This whole "sc2 is too easy" discussion is just stupid and based on fallacies. Hiding this as a blog won't change that either.
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On November 29 2011 22:06 KeksX wrote:
This whole "sc2 is too easy" discussion is just stupid and based on fallacies. Hiding this as a blog won't change that either.
What about "Sc2 mechanics are too easy?" it's not the same as Sc2 being easy.
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On November 29 2011 22:01 SnetteL wrote:
I don't agree, pro's should probably think about their hotkey setup and make an efficient one. A bit like DVORAK but for sc.
Could you please explain why you don't think than it's not true then?
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i believe sc2 -will- be harder with a few unit additions, and i'm basing that on how i think it can potentially be harder with how it is now. mouse dexterity can be as important as the hotkeys themselves. this is all because i can't help but feel that the most perfect play in bw is just about impossible for a human to produce consistently, while many basic actions are made much easier in sc2. so what i mean by sc2 being harder than bw, is when i look forward to the future and predict that the average level of play will be placed very high up there with all the achievable 'perfections' made to play.
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On November 29 2011 22:17 Moshikaro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:01 SnetteL wrote:
I don't agree, pro's should probably think about their hotkey setup and make an efficient one. A bit like DVORAK but for sc. Could you please explain why you don't think than it's not true then?
On November 29 2011 22:06 KeksX wrote:
This whole "sc2 is too easy" discussion is just stupid and based on fallacies. Hiding this as a blog won't change that either.
This is not about it. I'd like honest opinions and no bullshit that I don't really care about. I wrote this in the blog section because I want opinions about this. This is not a sc2 is too easy discussion. It's about mechanics and how one could maybe improve them faster.
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Germany3634 Posts
On November 29 2011 22:18 Moshikaro wrote:
This is not about it. I'd like honest opinions and no bullshit that I don't really care about. I wrote this in the blog section because I want opinions about this. This is not a sc2 is too easy discussion. It's about mechanics and how one could maybe improve them faster.
You don't improve mechanics faster by making them "more difficult". They are already difficult. Players are missing injects, mules, chronos and get supply blocked all the time. They float a lot of minerals before maxing out. They're not always active with their army and really passive of the time, they lack map awareness in most games and their scouting abilites are on a really low level.
Players have to think about their hotkey arrangement and then practice it properly, but rarely anyone does that. Heck, they already fail at proper cycling!
It's just that I'm annoyed at people saying "SC2 mechanics are so easy" and "SC2 is so easy"... Yes, starcraft 2 is different. Starcraft 2 is not starcraft 1, but saying it is easier (and therefore worse... or some other conclusion like that) is just a plain biased and uneducated opinion on the topic. It's not only obviously wrong but also most of the times just a provocation or a troll bait. Not saying this was your intention, but there's really not that much room for discussion. "SC2 mechanics are easy" is wrong, done.
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On November 29 2011 22:18 Moshikaro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:17 Moshikaro wrote:On November 29 2011 22:01 SnetteL wrote:
I don't agree, pro's should probably think about their hotkey setup and make an efficient one. A bit like DVORAK but for sc. Could you please explain why you don't think than it's not true then? Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:06 KeksX wrote:
This whole "sc2 is too easy" discussion is just stupid and based on fallacies. Hiding this as a blog won't change that either. This is not about it. I'd like honest opinions and no bullshit that I don't really care about. I wrote this in the blog section because I want opinions about this. This is not a sc2 is too easy discussion. It's about mechanics and how one could maybe improve them faster.
consistent hotkeys? very meticulous control? conditioned responses to the game timer? it's all very hard to say
the player must give all of his dedication practice time to winning his games first and foremost, anything else is just picked and improved along the way-------from a spectator's POV though.
when you have players re-hotkeying units and backing them up into each other as they're beginning to rally out of production buildings.. is when you know that a player is working up an extremely solid way of playing---having control over every aspect of the game, etc.
as zerg i use 3-6 for hatcheries, 0 for all of them and only 1-2 for army, while the rest are for tech buildings and structures like nydus. i had no clue that any pros did this because of how inefficient it felt.
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On November 29 2011 22:23 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:18 Moshikaro wrote:
This is not about it. I'd like honest opinions and no bullshit that I don't really care about. I wrote this in the blog section because I want opinions about this. This is not a sc2 is too easy discussion. It's about mechanics and how one could maybe improve them faster. You don't improve mechanics faster by making them "more difficult". They are already difficult. Players are missing injects, mules, chronos and get supply blocked all the time. They float a lot of minerals before maxing out. They're not always active with their army and really passive of the time, they lack map awareness in most games and their scouting abilites are on a really low level. Players have to think about their hotkey arrangement and then practice it properly, but rarely anyone does that. It's just that I'm annoyed at people saying "SC2 mechanics are so easy" and "SC2 is so easy"... Yes, starcraft 2 is different. Starcraft 2 is not starcraft 1, but saying it is easier and therefore worse is just a plain biased and uneducated opinion on the topic. It's not only obviously wrong but also most of the times just a provocation or a troll bait.
Yep. I guess I never should've made this thread. Is it that hard to read the whole topic and keep in mind the true intention of this post?
I asked for opinions and that is what I want to get.
On November 29 2011 22:23 KeksX wrote:
You don't improve mechanics faster by making them "more difficult". They are already difficult. Players are missing injects, mules, chronos and get supply blocked all the time. They float a lot of minerals before maxing out. They're not always active with their army and really passive of the time, they lack map awareness in most games and their scouting abilites are on a really low level.
Players have to think about their hotkey arrangement and then practice it properly, but rarely anyone does that. Heck, they already fail at proper cycling!
It's just that I'm annoyed at people saying "SC2 mechanics are so easy" and "SC2 is so easy"... Yes, starcraft 2 is different. Starcraft 2 is not starcraft 1, but saying it is easier (and therefore worse... or some other conclusion like that) is just a plain biased and uneducated opinion on the topic. It's not only obviously wrong but also most of the times just a provocation or a troll bait. Not saying this was your intention, but there's really not that much room for discussion. "SC2 mechanics are easy" is wrong, done.
I wonder though if you're assumption is right than the BW players will be just as good as the SC2 pro's are now and they will not be able to do as good as the pro's since they're so far behind.
In my experience makings things harder does indeed make you learn faster. It's like this with everything. You can't deny that.
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Germany3634 Posts
On November 29 2011 22:25 Moshikaro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:23 KeksX wrote:On November 29 2011 22:18 Moshikaro wrote:
This is not about it. I'd like honest opinions and no bullshit that I don't really care about. I wrote this in the blog section because I want opinions about this. This is not a sc2 is too easy discussion. It's about mechanics and how one could maybe improve them faster. You don't improve mechanics faster by making them "more difficult". They are already difficult. Players are missing injects, mules, chronos and get supply blocked all the time. They float a lot of minerals before maxing out. They're not always active with their army and really passive of the time, they lack map awareness in most games and their scouting abilites are on a really low level. Players have to think about their hotkey arrangement and then practice it properly, but rarely anyone does that. It's just that I'm annoyed at people saying "SC2 mechanics are so easy" and "SC2 is so easy"... Yes, starcraft 2 is different. Starcraft 2 is not starcraft 1, but saying it is easier and therefore worse is just a plain biased and uneducated opinion on the topic. It's not only obviously wrong but also most of the times just a provocation or a troll bait. Yep. I guess I never should've made this thread. Is it that hard to read the whole topic and keep in mind the true intention of this post? I asked for opinions and that is what I want to get.
You wanted to start a discussion based on fallacies(The whole "SC2 is easier than BW" thing.). How can you not expect such a response? But you cleared that out, so we should start this over.
I wonder though if you're assumption is right than the BW players will be just as good as the SC2 pro's are now and they will not be able to do as good as the pro's since they're so far behind.
In my experience makings things harder does indeed make you learn faster. It's like this with everything. You can't deny that.
I think that the BW players will have to adapt in certain ways(you play SC2 in a different way than BW), but they at least know how to achieve this state of "perfection" or at least come near to it, at least when it comes to mechanics. So I think over time the BW way of practicing mechanics will win, as long as they keep up with the strategy part of the game.
But making it harder won't have any (EDIT: positive) effect.
1) It is already hard enough
2) If you make it harder you just create more room for mistakes. This will be counter-productive.
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a lot of posters are picky about what they read, so for a discussion thread you have to be very careful about the sort of ideas and facts you include. since you're basing your intent/idea on the 'fact' that sc2 is easier compared to another game, it's obvious that it would be a point of contention/focus. anyway, we're not saying either game is harder, just possibilities right?
it's obvious that both games have not hit their skill-ceilings, though BW has seemingly come very, very close.
sc2 is like a baby with some of the games we still see going on today. you see nada even trying out newer stuff with banshee and a gigantic economy with 3 bases. it's inspiring, and extremely solid, but there are just so many apparent holes still
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I think players should just play how they feel most comfortable. That combined with plenty of practice will make you very fast with those specific hotkeys.
Once that is accomplished, you can maybe make subtle adjustments to your mechanics etc etc.
Atleast, that's how I think about it.
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On November 29 2011 22:17 Moshikaro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 22:01 SnetteL wrote:
I don't agree, pro's should probably think about their hotkey setup and make an efficient one. A bit like DVORAK but for sc. Could you please explain why you don't think than it's not true then?
I did, I used DVORAK as an example.
If you think about it certain sequences will be less likely to follow eachother, by getting those keys together and using different fingers for them you could get astronomical speeds.
Less finger travel time + more fingers used = higher speeds (which is what I think).
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You don't improve faster by making things more difficult. You improve faster by playing more. By practicing better. By getting REALLY picky with yourself on your replays. "55 energy on my orbital before my 5th mule was dropped? If I land that at the right time, I'll have 30 extra minerals and can afford my 5th rax 10 seconds sooner...." It sounds silly, but those are the little timings that "mean nothing" right now, since honestly the game is still being figured out, but will become a lot more important as the game develops.
Watching Fin play today, I can say that he was a truly impressive player, but even with his "harder practice" he was far from perfect -- floating 1200 minerals before you're maxed is not perfect play. He was good, his attacks were impressive, the timings on his build were extremely sharp, sharp enough that I will be stealing that particular build on the larger maps. But even with the...what was it I saw in the other thread, 18th highest ranked BW player? We're still far from seeing perfect play out of anyone.
I would love to know Fin's practice regimen. I would wager that he doesn't practice making mechanics more difficult, but I bet he DOES practice more hours and is harder on himself about the tiny mistakes than a lot of players currently are. + Show Spoiler [Code A Ro32] +Which is why you saw him tear apart Polt like he was MLG Open Bracket fodder.
I'm excited to see Fin's progress, but let's not crown him king just yet.
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I don't think mechanics is what distinguishes pro's from good players in sc2. More like having really really tight builds, a good understanding of the game, good decision making, good map awareness and all that sort of stuff.
Actually I'm pretty sure I have better mechanics than a few successful pro's, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't roll me easily.
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what is this i don't even......
Making this game intentionally harder by having hotkeys out of your finger's reach is dumb. You should make mechanics easier for you so you can be executing builds more efficiently, faster. This allows you to gain game knowledge faster (since you'll be playing against better people) and make better decisions, both of which are actually crucial for improving your mechanics.
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Most players that have 0 as their hotkey are doing so from the BW days, and its all about muscle memory. I don't think that anyone today has it on 0, because...its like..All the way over there.
Haha.
Good post though. (:
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The appropriate way to go about improving comes in small steps that adds something new in as you learn. This is why pianists start with children's music before playing Chopin, and why runners run 10 miles before they run a marathon. It's why gymnists start on the mat before they go to the uneven bars, and why kids read Curious George before they get to War and Peace.
In the lower leagues people don't use hotkeys or they put all their units on one. As they improve they begin to diversify their hotkeys and use more (banelings in a separate group so they don't blow up on destructible rocks anyone?). They learn to hotkey buildings and areas of the map.
If you deliberately make things 'harder' for yourself by putting you hatches on 0, what do you actually accomplish? Not much at all. Your suggestion is flawed not only because you think finger-speed is the important aspect of mechanics to be improved, but because this will only increase your speed in hitting 0.
Good mechanics develop when a player has repeated an action enough times that they no longer have to actively think about it (injects or creepspread, or warp ins, etc), freeing up their mind to focus on the strategic decisions of the game. Simple finger speed does no good without the mental development, and the mental development is not transferable among any keys-- it only happens with the ones you use. The natural progression that happens from starting with a few hotkeys and adding in more is that you get faster and faster at using the same keys over and over. Changing even one key after you have used it a long time will screw up anyone, because the repetition over time is what creates the speed.
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Another ban bait thread? There are better ways of starting a BW vs. SC2 discussion (which often end up being a flame war, but some of the recent threads/blogs weren't too bad) than the way you presented it here.
I do admit that fOrGG's GSL performance so far has been largely warranted already from his BW pro status. Best of luck to him as he continues his conquest!
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You can't simply say that SC2 is easier than BW because BW had harder mechanics. There is also no point to making it harder for yourself and that in no way will improve your mechanics. The right thing to do is practice your timings, keep your money low at all times by having good macro, expanding, microing when necessary, watching your minimap, and basically doing everything correctly/at the right time...these things will naturally increase your apm. Play efficient and play smart but don't make it harder on yourself...the more you practice the easier all these steps of the game will become and they will become encoded in your muscle memory so you can do mechanics and have high apm without consciously thinking about it. After you reach this level, where you know build orders, timings, and mechanics like the back of your hand, you can focus on strategy/tactics and psychological warfare. That is when the game gets interesting.
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Calgary25981 Posts
Resistance training in Starcraft doesn't make sense.
I make my setup 10% more difficult than the optimal setup. There are two results:
1. I have to become 10% better at the game to overcome this.
2. After training, I revert to the optimal setup. The 10% extra skill I have gained is copmletely negated by my unfamiliarity with this setup.
There's a reason it's 1a2a3a and not 3a6a7a0a.
Edit: Drilling (practicing specific scenarios or battles over and over) makes sense. You can even reduce your army size until you are able to win battles you shouldn't with fewer units. Handicapping yourself be limiting your control doesn't make sense.
The former is like sparring while not allowing yourself to take 5 punches total. The latter, your suggestion, is like training with lead boots, which makes no sense.
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I feel sorry for you OP that so many are misinterpretating your thread :-/
It's an interesting idea to make it harder for yourself to improve your overall handspeed and precision, but I feel like it shouldn't be done in game. Maybe you should even do it without a keyboard. Not really sure how, but it is for sure an interesting idea.
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EPT
