• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:07
CEST 01:07
KST 08:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202538Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments3[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced55BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams11
StarCraft 2
General
Serral wins EWC 2025 The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Interview with Chris "ChanmanV" Chan Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Classic: "It's a thick wall to break through to become world champ"
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars
Brood War
General
[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder How do the new Battle.net ranks translate? BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion Nobody gona talk about this year crazy qualifiers?
Tourneys
Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 1
Strategy
[G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread 9/11 Anniversary Possible Al Qaeda Attack on 9/11 Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 658 users

1500th: StarCraft 2 Unit Design

Blogs > Newbistic
Post a Reply
Newbistic
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
China2912 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-19 09:31:24
November 18 2011 05:14 GMT
#1
StarCraft II Unit Control Design
sorry for the boring title, it is accurate

Part I: Introduction

Welcome to my 1500th post on Team Liquid! For this joyous occasion I present to you some of my thoughts on how units are designed in a competitive RTS game, such as the upcoming Heart of the Swarm expansion. This blog will not be discussing the balance of units, or even other important aspects of unit design such as the role a unit plays in its race, how well the tech tree flows, and overall balance in terms of unit counters. Instead, it will focus on what I feel is an under-appreciated aspect of unit design, which is unit control design.

[image loading]
If it's the hatchery that gives birth to larva, is it weird to anyone else that it's the queen (female) that's doing the injecting?

Well what is unit control design, you ask? The simplest answer is that it is the design of how a unit moves and fires. In a competitive RTS game like StarCraft, unit control design governs the micro-ability of units. Unit control design is what makes direct-fire units fun to use even when they do not have any unique abilities. Why does Blizzard make certain units so fast and agile, while others are slow and sluggish? The answer to this, and more, lies below!

Part II: A Few Notable Historical Examples of Unit Control Design

Brood War did not invent the concept of unit control, or micromanagement. It did, however, take this concept to an unheard of level, much the same way Jimi Hendrix pushed the boundaries of the electric guitar as an instrument. Here, I would like to show you some noteworthy examples of design decisions I've found in my own gaming history in many RTS games, and how they have subsequently affected the gameplay.

[image loading]
That is many tank, yes?

Anyone who's ever played the first Red Alert game will tell you that it's all about the tanks. Tank cannons were effective against everything that their treads could not squish. But tank on tank battles in this game did have some interesting micro mechanics. This was all due to the fact that cannon projectiles took time to reach their target, and the targetting AI never lead the shots against a moving target. Therefore, when the usual focus firing occurs in a tank vs. tank army battle, it was possible to move the tank being focus fired and dodge 90% of the damage, wasting entire volleys of tank shells. This mechanic wasn't very hard to exploit, but it was cool to see.

[image loading]
The least likeliest unit to die in this battle is probably that sheep in the lower left hand corner.

Age of Empires 2 took micro-ability of units to the extreme by giving all units, from foot soldiers to horses to ships, the ability to do instantly change direction without a turning arc or loss in speed. Furthermore, acceleration did not exist, meaning if a unit moved at all, it would be moving at the fastest speed it could go. While this meant micromanagement potential shot through the roof, it also meant there was little diversity in terms of how different units were controlled.

[image loading]
Fuck you, APC!!! Y U NO TURN

Command and Conquer 3 came out in 2007. It was a beautiful game to look at but a poor game to play. Unit control design was tossed completely out of the window in favor of "realism". All units except for infantry had their own turning arcs, which made micromanaging groups of vehicles an exercise in frustration. Units seemed to take player orders as mere suggestions, often overriding commands with their own programmed AI.

[image loading]
Those silly European knights thought Mongol cavalry archers were dangerous. The Mongols never flew around on bat wings shooting arrows that bounced from target to target.

Starcraft (and Brood War) took unit control to a different level. Although like Age of Empires 2 most units could change direction without losing speed, most units had unique attack animation timings and all air units had their own acceleration and deceleration rates. This added a lot of depth to how different units could be controlled.

Additionally, there were a handful of units (wraiths, mutalisks, vultures) with very fast attack animations that could attack in between moving in such a way that no speed is lost between the attacks. The rarity of this feature made mutalisk, wraith, and vulture micro very special and exciting to see.

Part III: Unit Control Design for StarCraft II

What can StarCraft 2 learn from all these other games? We might argue about how unit control can potentially affect balance, and discuss how certain units need to be limited in their speed and firing animations so they do not become too overpowered.

But I am going to argue that unit control should be designed above balance. Leave balance to the numerical statistics such as attack, armor, hit points, build times, and costs. Unit control should be designed with only one goal in mind: a unit should be fun to control.

I make this statement with the design philosophy of a very specific person in mind: Shigeru Miyamoto, the creator of Mario and designer of many of Nintendo's most famous games. Various anecdotes I've read tell of how before Miyamoto gets into the specific details of any game, he first makes sure that the most basic mechanics of the game is fun for gamers. He would go around the Nintendo office with a prototype of a game with placeholder graphics, and ask people to play through it to get an opinion of whether or not the basic game play is fun. This should be the same design philosophy that goes into unit control for StarCraft 2.

[image loading]
Games about turtles and mushrooms are the shit.

Let's take a look at the mutalisk as an example of what I'm talking about. Any Brood War player knows about "muta micro". This is a mechanic in which mutalisks could be grouped with an overlord that is far away and safe from harm, allowing the mutalisks to be stacked on top of each other, making it hard to target individual mutalisks. This, coupled with the fast movement speed and attack animation of the mutalisk, made muta micro the premier way for Zerg to harass mineral lines. It was fantastic to see and extremely satisfying to use.


For the uninitiated. You guys missed out, man.

Now we compare the Brood War mutalisk to its StarCraft 2 counterpart. Movement speed has been decreased, mutalisks no longer have the ability to move in a tight ball, and the firing animation seemed to have been slightly lengthened. By comparison, the Brood War mutalisk is more fun to control. Isn't this, then, a step backwards in terms of unit design?

Some readers may disagree by pointing out that mutalisks are already incredibly powerful in StarCraft 2 and do not need additional, "abusive" micro mechanics. But I argue that balance can always be shifted by changing the numbers such as hit points, attack strength, armor, and so on. "Fun" is not affected by these numbers. It is however, affected by unit control mechanics. I mean, Terran already has the Thor which punishes Zerg for bunching up their mutalisks at the wrong time. Why not empower players with units that become more powerful the better they are controlled?

On the other hand we can also compare the Marine from Brood War and from StarCraft 2. The only differences are that Marines have gained 5 hit points (15 with combat shields), and their firing animation has been reduced. While it was still possible to do THIS with marines in Brood War, in StarCraft 2 they are even more powerful. Stutter stepping in StarCraft 2 is not only extremely satisfying to do, but it is also quite easy to learn. Marine unit control has been made even more fun in StarCraft 2.

Of course, increases in speed and attack capabilities are not the only criteria to making a unit fun to control. The Ultralisk has been slowed down in StarCraft 2, but is given appropriate weight in its lumbering step and massive size. With their (tentative) burrow-charge ability in HotS, groups of Ultralisks will definitely become one of the most intimidating sights in the game. In a previous blog, I talked about how units can be made more fun to use simply by changing something as simple as the sound of their attack, or what the units say when they are ordered around.

I can also point at the Phoenix as an example of where speed and firing animation has failed to make a unit particularly exciting to use. As a self-described "air superiority fighter", the Phoenix is a poor performer. Although they are statistically stronger than mutalisks and vikings, more often than not they are out ranged by vikings and outnumbered by mutalisks in actual combat. Although their superior speed and ability to fire on the move were designed as a mutalisk counter in mind, in reality they are not produced in nearly enough numbers to defeat how many mutalisks Zergs usually make. It is perhaps the lack of effort a player needs to control phoenixes that make them not as exciting to use.


Maybe this is how Blizzard tests unit balance internally. Nahhhhh.....

The bottom line is, care must be taken in unit design to make sure that units are fun to control. If a unit seems to be "too powerful" because of how it can be controlled, it is, in most cases, wiser to re-balance through other avenues than to nerf how the unit moves and fires.

Part IV: Unit Control, Design vs. Accident

Let me first tell you a story about two games.

[image loading]
Douchebag Samus ignores your "employees only" sign

One game is called Super Metroid. It came out in 1994. If you beat the game fast enough, you could catch a glimpse of the heroine Samus Aran in a swimsuit. Toward that end, thousands of Metroid fans tried to find methods to beat the game as fast as possible. Many fans found ways to exploit the game's physics engine to reach powerful items far earlier than the game's designers had intended, opening up new ways to play the game. Speed running was born, sequence breaking was born. Everyone lauded Super Metroid as one of the greatest platforming/exploration games ever made, due in no small part to designer oversight.

Fast forward ten years. Metroid Zero Mission came out in 2004. Nintendo, having discovered the sequence breaking and speed running Metroid communities, designed this game with these two concepts firmly in mind. The game world was a sprawling maze filled with hundreds of hidden shortcuts and secrets. There were multiple ways to reach virtually every item before they were "intended" to be found. Everything was immaculately designed, some of the secrets were truly ingenious. But in the end all secrets were discovered within months of the game's release. Metroid fans all agreed that Zero Mission was a fantastic game, but Super Metroid was still better.

The development of these two Metroid games has many parallels with the development of Brood War and StarCraft 2. Granted, StarCraft 2 still hides many untold secrets in terms of how the game play is still evolving. But those who have played Brood War and StarCraft 2 will all agree that there is still some magic in Brood War that is missing in StarCraft 2.

The moral of this story is that sometimes accidents (or coincidences) in game design can achieve far more than what even the smartest game designers can achieve. This makes sense in some part, because the designers possess the brainpower of only a few, while the player base possesses the brainpower of millions, all of them seeking to exploit the game mechanics for their own gain.

So the last part of unit control design I am suggesting is this: perhaps Blizzard should take some risks with design. Not random risks, but smart risks by granting certain units extreme control. Maximize how fun it is to control units, and leave balance to other characteristics of the unit that do not affect how fun they are to use.

That's my 2 cents on unit control design, brought to you free of charge. Feel free to discuss and disagree.

EDIT: I have zero experience designing games. I've only read a lot of articles on game design, and when I play games I often find myself analyzing how the game is designed as I play. It's really just a hobby.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional Discussion from comments below

On November 19 2011 03:06 Newbistic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2011 02:29 00Zarathustra wrote:
On November 18 2011 15:53 Newbistic wrote:
On November 18 2011 15:12 00Zarathustra wrote:
[spoiler]This is exactly what I thought about BW SC2

In BW the units have an "skill potential" ppl playing years and years are still amazed when the see Jaedong's muta micro. And it was not about Mutas only. Most of BW players watch pro gamers reavers and think "Wow thats so awesome, I could never micro my reavers like that" the same happened to high templar's storms, vultures, marines, wraiths, etc.

The amazing factor of this units was the unbelievably high "high potential skill " they have. The "I could never micro like that" factor.

On the other hand SC2 units don't have this amazing "" Just look at nestea or DRG mutalisks and tell me "I could never micro my mutas like that" I challenge you. Same happens with Hellions, roaches, marauders and stalkers. DO I have to mention Colossus? I think I do. Because is the most boring unit and it has the most boring "counter" mechanic. Have any of you watched some protoss PROS playing and said "I wish I could micro my colossi like that"? I bet you didn't and you won't do it because like the OP says the unit is designed that way.

One of the few units that have this "potential skill" is the marine. Watching MVP marine split or stutter focus micro makes you think "I wish someday I could micro my marines like that" It has that BW unit effect.

The problem with sc2 players is that they are asking for a nerf on the Marine instead of asking for a bigger skill requirement in other units. That would give a higher "potential skill" to many units that would allow the game to balance through skill. But most SC2 players don't want a higher skill cap. They want easy to use units that are balanced.... AND BORING.

SC2 players should be asking Blizzard to give them units that have a high skill cap. That way the SKILL GAP between PROs and casual players would be higher. And that would make the game more amazing for the spectators.

That's what makes a PRO scene big. the SKILL GAP. spectators want to watch the PROS doing things they didn't think possible. They want to look up on them as HEROES that are capable of amazing features. Amazing features that a casual player can't do with his limited practice of the game.

I hope you guys start to ask for more room for improvement instead of just asking for balance and newbie friendly treatment. That's the way SC2 will become a great E-SPORT.



Well, it's really not all about the skill ceiling either. It's just that in many cases funner unit control equates to higher skill ceiling. Sometimes this is not the case: take the Battlecruiser as an example. The single laser firing animation in Brood War allows for better micro than the multishot lasers in SC2, but the SC2 Battlecruiser "feels" more powerful and more fun to use. And it sometimes leads to this:



Which is damned exciting. Note that the yamato micro on the BCs have been retained.

I also just noticed that the yamato charging up sound is much more robust in SC2. The explosion a yamato blast causes looks almost like a small nuke.



I think you missed the point. I wasn't discussing what made a unit more fun.

I just was pointing how awesome is to watch pro gamers making amazing micro that no casual player can achieve.

I have never watched a BW VOD or replay where I was thinking: "Wow I could never micro my Battlecruisers like that"

Even if battlecruisers can be microed they didnt have that "I could never...." effect. Just like most of the SC2 units. And I think that the desing on SC2 units won't allow players to get a higher skill ceiling(thx for the word ^^) I just don't think its possible that they will discover a new way to micro these units (like the mutalisk micro that was discovered years after BW was at professional level) because the way they are designed won't allow them.


EDIT: BTW I think thats the reason the Terran games are the mos spectacular in SC2, they have the units with higher skill ceiling in the game. (e,g. marine)



I see what you are saying. Higher skill ceiling should allow for more exciting spectator experience, right?

IMO that's a pretty tricky design problem so far as SC2 goes. Blizzard has made the decision in SC2 to modernize UI controls, giving players MBS, smart casting, unlimited selection, etc. I agree with this decision because it helps attract a larger player base, and because (see below) UI clunkiness shouldn't be the main reason why a game is hard. On the other hand, the high mechanical requirement for Brood War was one of the reasons why the game was so successful as a professional competitive game.

Theoretically speaking it is possible to reallocate the "lost APM sinks" into other, more combat related tasks in the game such as unit control. This re-allocation of APM is a step forward in game design because unit control is a much more apparent and flashier display of APM than something like macroing really well without MBS, especially for casual viewers. We already see some of that with marine micro and stalker micro. Unfortunately, there probably isn't enough of these micro-able units to make the perceived skill ceiling approach Brood War standards.

The obvious solution to this problem is to simply speed up accelerations, movement speeds, attack animations on a bunch of units, or add more special abilities to existing units, but this solution does have some problems. First, if too many units have uber agility and fast attack animations, then the overall rhythm of combat will become unbalanced. Even in Brood War, only a select few units had incredible micro-ability. This allowed games to have a bit of amazing micro, a bit of large armies clashing, and not just all bog down to micro wars between super-mobile units all the time. Second, if too many activateable special abilities are added, then the game loses its simplicity, which IMO at least is something that StarCraft is famous for (complex interactions between simple units).

I think the best way to tackle this design problem is to give Zerg and Protoss maybe one or two more units that are super mobile and micro-able, then look for other, more creative ways to increase micro. What I specifically have in mind is something like reaver/shuttle micro, where the APM usage is more reactionary than the rhythmic "fly in fly out" of mutalisk micro. SC2 Colossi drops aren't quite at that level yet, and none of the HotS units shown so far seem to allow for something like this (maybe the shredder?).



*****
Logic is Overrated
Arco
Profile Joined September 2009
United States2090 Posts
November 18 2011 05:46 GMT
#2
Great post! Really hits the nail on the head about some of the amazing things that we lost transitioning from BW to SC2.
endy
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Switzerland8970 Posts
November 18 2011 05:48 GMT
#3
Great article, not much else to say.
5/5

Enjoy your posting as a reaver now !
ॐ
rotinegg
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States1719 Posts
November 18 2011 05:55 GMT
#4
Very interesting insight, agree with it all! 5/5
Translator
Mobius_1
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2763 Posts
November 18 2011 06:10 GMT
#5
Solid 12/5.

I thought this was another complaint about "OMG SC2 sucks" but it turns out to be balanced, passionate, educational, enlightening and entertaining.

Awesome!
Starleague Forever. RIP KT Violet~
00Zarathustra
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Bolivia419 Posts
November 18 2011 06:12 GMT
#6
This is exactly what I thought about BW SC2

In BW the units have an "skill potential" ppl playing years and years are still amazed when the see Jaedong's muta micro. And it was not about Mutas only. Most of BW players watch pro gamers reavers and think "Wow thats so awesome, I could never micro my reavers like that" the same happened to high templar's storms, vultures, marines, wraiths, etc.

The amazing factor of this units was the unbelievably high "high potential skill " they have. The "I could never micro like that" factor.

On the other hand SC2 units don't have this amazing "" Just look at nestea or DRG mutalisks and tell me "I could never micro my mutas like that" I challenge you. Same happens with Hellions, roaches, marauders and stalkers. DO I have to mention Colossus? I think I do. Because is the most boring unit and it has the most boring "counter" mechanic. Have any of you watched some protoss PROS playing and said "I wish I could micro my colossi like that"? I bet you didn't and you won't do it because like the OP says the unit is designed that way.

One of the few units that have this "potential skill" is the marine. Watching MVP marine split or stutter focus micro makes you think "I wish someday I could micro my marines like that" It has that BW unit effect.

The problem with sc2 players is that they are asking for a nerf on the Marine instead of asking for a bigger skill requirement in other units. That would give a higher "potential skill" to many units that would allow the game to balance through skill. But most SC2 players don't want a higher skill cap. They want easy to use units that are balanced.... AND BORING.

SC2 players should be asking Blizzard to give them units that have a high skill cap. That way the SKILL GAP between PROs and casual players would be higher. And that would make the game more amazing for the spectators.

That's what makes a PRO scene big. the SKILL GAP. spectators want to watch the PROS doing things they didn't think possible. They want to look up on them as HEROES that are capable of amazing features. Amazing features that a casual player can't do with his limited practice of the game.

I hope you guys start to ask for more room for improvement instead of just asking for balance and newbie friendly treatment. That's the way SC2 will become a great E-SPORT.

Zarathustra "You can't spell aNal_Rape without Nal_Ra"
Newbistic
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
China2912 Posts
November 18 2011 06:53 GMT
#7
On November 18 2011 15:12 00Zarathustra wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
This is exactly what I thought about BW SC2

In BW the units have an "skill potential" ppl playing years and years are still amazed when the see Jaedong's muta micro. And it was not about Mutas only. Most of BW players watch pro gamers reavers and think "Wow thats so awesome, I could never micro my reavers like that" the same happened to high templar's storms, vultures, marines, wraiths, etc.

The amazing factor of this units was the unbelievably high "high potential skill " they have. The "I could never micro like that" factor.

On the other hand SC2 units don't have this amazing "" Just look at nestea or DRG mutalisks and tell me "I could never micro my mutas like that" I challenge you. Same happens with Hellions, roaches, marauders and stalkers. DO I have to mention Colossus? I think I do. Because is the most boring unit and it has the most boring "counter" mechanic. Have any of you watched some protoss PROS playing and said "I wish I could micro my colossi like that"? I bet you didn't and you won't do it because like the OP says the unit is designed that way.

One of the few units that have this "potential skill" is the marine. Watching MVP marine split or stutter focus micro makes you think "I wish someday I could micro my marines like that" It has that BW unit effect.

The problem with sc2 players is that they are asking for a nerf on the Marine instead of asking for a bigger skill requirement in other units. That would give a higher "potential skill" to many units that would allow the game to balance through skill. But most SC2 players don't want a higher skill cap. They want easy to use units that are balanced.... AND BORING.

SC2 players should be asking Blizzard to give them units that have a high skill cap. That way the SKILL GAP between PROs and casual players would be higher. And that would make the game more amazing for the spectators.

That's what makes a PRO scene big. the SKILL GAP. spectators want to watch the PROS doing things they didn't think possible. They want to look up on them as HEROES that are capable of amazing features. Amazing features that a casual player can't do with his limited practice of the game.

I hope you guys start to ask for more room for improvement instead of just asking for balance and newbie friendly treatment. That's the way SC2 will become a great E-SPORT.




Well, it's really not all about the skill ceiling either. It's just that in many cases funner unit control equates to higher skill ceiling. Sometimes this is not the case: take the Battlecruiser as an example. The single laser firing animation in Brood War allows for better micro than the multishot lasers in SC2, but the SC2 Battlecruiser "feels" more powerful and more fun to use. And it sometimes leads to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv2xfUUsiI

Which is damned exciting. Note that the yamato micro on the BCs have been retained.

I also just noticed that the yamato charging up sound is much more robust in SC2. The explosion a yamato blast causes looks almost like a small nuke.
Logic is Overrated
Colour415
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada26 Posts
November 18 2011 07:04 GMT
#8
Awesome read! Having gone from Command and Conquer 3 directly into Starcraft 2 and still playing CC3 on occasion I would have to say that i don't notice the pathing problem you mention with the vehicles. CC3 had the whole directional armor and reverse move mechanic which I miss dearly and it took me a really long time to get used to not pressing "D" before pulling any unit back in SC2.

5/5
surfinbird1
Profile Joined September 2009
Germany999 Posts
November 18 2011 07:15 GMT
#9
Very educational indeed. I especially have to echo your last point: accidents. I think Broodwar is the accident. Take for example buggy dragoon AI or muta stacking. Technically those are all bugs but they make the game so much more exciting and a player who can control these "buggy" units even more impressive. Broodwar is in my opinion the one in a million accident.
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3805 Posts
November 18 2011 08:58 GMT
#10
Good read, could/should be spotlighted perhaps
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
Newbistic
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
China2912 Posts
November 18 2011 10:30 GMT
#11
On November 18 2011 16:04 Colour415 wrote:
Awesome read! Having gone from Command and Conquer 3 directly into Starcraft 2 and still playing CC3 on occasion I would have to say that i don't notice the pathing problem you mention with the vehicles. CC3 had the whole directional armor and reverse move mechanic which I miss dearly and it took me a really long time to get used to not pressing "D" before pulling any unit back in SC2.

5/5


Huh, I didn't know about the directional armor thing... maybe I am mistaken about certain things... But I distinctly remember in that game trying to send units back to the war factory to repair, but they all kept stopping just out of range of the repair bots no matter how close to the war factory I clicked. I guess I'm just too used to the extreme precision of StarCraft.
Logic is Overrated
00Zarathustra
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Bolivia419 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-18 17:32:08
November 18 2011 17:29 GMT
#12
On November 18 2011 15:53 Newbistic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2011 15:12 00Zarathustra wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
This is exactly what I thought about BW SC2

In BW the units have an "skill potential" ppl playing years and years are still amazed when the see Jaedong's muta micro. And it was not about Mutas only. Most of BW players watch pro gamers reavers and think "Wow thats so awesome, I could never micro my reavers like that" the same happened to high templar's storms, vultures, marines, wraiths, etc.

The amazing factor of this units was the unbelievably high "high potential skill " they have. The "I could never micro like that" factor.

On the other hand SC2 units don't have this amazing "" Just look at nestea or DRG mutalisks and tell me "I could never micro my mutas like that" I challenge you. Same happens with Hellions, roaches, marauders and stalkers. DO I have to mention Colossus? I think I do. Because is the most boring unit and it has the most boring "counter" mechanic. Have any of you watched some protoss PROS playing and said "I wish I could micro my colossi like that"? I bet you didn't and you won't do it because like the OP says the unit is designed that way.

One of the few units that have this "potential skill" is the marine. Watching MVP marine split or stutter focus micro makes you think "I wish someday I could micro my marines like that" It has that BW unit effect.

The problem with sc2 players is that they are asking for a nerf on the Marine instead of asking for a bigger skill requirement in other units. That would give a higher "potential skill" to many units that would allow the game to balance through skill. But most SC2 players don't want a higher skill cap. They want easy to use units that are balanced.... AND BORING.

SC2 players should be asking Blizzard to give them units that have a high skill cap. That way the SKILL GAP between PROs and casual players would be higher. And that would make the game more amazing for the spectators.

That's what makes a PRO scene big. the SKILL GAP. spectators want to watch the PROS doing things they didn't think possible. They want to look up on them as HEROES that are capable of amazing features. Amazing features that a casual player can't do with his limited practice of the game.

I hope you guys start to ask for more room for improvement instead of just asking for balance and newbie friendly treatment. That's the way SC2 will become a great E-SPORT.




Well, it's really not all about the skill ceiling either. It's just that in many cases funner unit control equates to higher skill ceiling. Sometimes this is not the case: take the Battlecruiser as an example. The single laser firing animation in Brood War allows for better micro than the multishot lasers in SC2, but the SC2 Battlecruiser "feels" more powerful and more fun to use. And it sometimes leads to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv2xfUUsiI

Which is damned exciting. Note that the yamato micro on the BCs have been retained.

I also just noticed that the yamato charging up sound is much more robust in SC2. The explosion a yamato blast causes looks almost like a small nuke.



I think you missed the point. I wasn't discussing what made a unit more fun.

I just was pointing how awesome is to watch pro gamers making amazing micro that no casual player can achieve.

I have never watched a BW VOD or replay where I was thinking: "Wow I could never micro my Battlecruisers like that"

Even if battlecruisers can be microed they didnt have that "I could never...." effect. Just like most of the SC2 units. And I think that the desing on SC2 units won't allow players to get a higher skill ceiling(thx for the word ^^) I just don't think its possible that they will discover a new way to micro these units (like the mutalisk micro that was discovered years after BW was at professional level) because the way they are designed won't allow them.


EDIT: BTW I think thats the reason the Terran games are the mos spectacular in SC2, they have the units with higher skill ceiling in the game. (e,g. marine)


Zarathustra "You can't spell aNal_Rape without Nal_Ra"
Newbistic
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
China2912 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-18 18:07:29
November 18 2011 18:06 GMT
#13
On November 19 2011 02:29 00Zarathustra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2011 15:53 Newbistic wrote:
On November 18 2011 15:12 00Zarathustra wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
This is exactly what I thought about BW SC2

In BW the units have an "skill potential" ppl playing years and years are still amazed when the see Jaedong's muta micro. And it was not about Mutas only. Most of BW players watch pro gamers reavers and think "Wow thats so awesome, I could never micro my reavers like that" the same happened to high templar's storms, vultures, marines, wraiths, etc.

The amazing factor of this units was the unbelievably high "high potential skill " they have. The "I could never micro like that" factor.

On the other hand SC2 units don't have this amazing "" Just look at nestea or DRG mutalisks and tell me "I could never micro my mutas like that" I challenge you. Same happens with Hellions, roaches, marauders and stalkers. DO I have to mention Colossus? I think I do. Because is the most boring unit and it has the most boring "counter" mechanic. Have any of you watched some protoss PROS playing and said "I wish I could micro my colossi like that"? I bet you didn't and you won't do it because like the OP says the unit is designed that way.

One of the few units that have this "potential skill" is the marine. Watching MVP marine split or stutter focus micro makes you think "I wish someday I could micro my marines like that" It has that BW unit effect.

The problem with sc2 players is that they are asking for a nerf on the Marine instead of asking for a bigger skill requirement in other units. That would give a higher "potential skill" to many units that would allow the game to balance through skill. But most SC2 players don't want a higher skill cap. They want easy to use units that are balanced.... AND BORING.

SC2 players should be asking Blizzard to give them units that have a high skill cap. That way the SKILL GAP between PROs and casual players would be higher. And that would make the game more amazing for the spectators.

That's what makes a PRO scene big. the SKILL GAP. spectators want to watch the PROS doing things they didn't think possible. They want to look up on them as HEROES that are capable of amazing features. Amazing features that a casual player can't do with his limited practice of the game.

I hope you guys start to ask for more room for improvement instead of just asking for balance and newbie friendly treatment. That's the way SC2 will become a great E-SPORT.




Well, it's really not all about the skill ceiling either. It's just that in many cases funner unit control equates to higher skill ceiling. Sometimes this is not the case: take the Battlecruiser as an example. The single laser firing animation in Brood War allows for better micro than the multishot lasers in SC2, but the SC2 Battlecruiser "feels" more powerful and more fun to use. And it sometimes leads to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv2xfUUsiI

Which is damned exciting. Note that the yamato micro on the BCs have been retained.

I also just noticed that the yamato charging up sound is much more robust in SC2. The explosion a yamato blast causes looks almost like a small nuke.



I think you missed the point. I wasn't discussing what made a unit more fun.

I just was pointing how awesome is to watch pro gamers making amazing micro that no casual player can achieve.

I have never watched a BW VOD or replay where I was thinking: "Wow I could never micro my Battlecruisers like that"

Even if battlecruisers can be microed they didnt have that "I could never...." effect. Just like most of the SC2 units. And I think that the desing on SC2 units won't allow players to get a higher skill ceiling(thx for the word ^^) I just don't think its possible that they will discover a new way to micro these units (like the mutalisk micro that was discovered years after BW was at professional level) because the way they are designed won't allow them.


EDIT: BTW I think thats the reason the Terran games are the mos spectacular in SC2, they have the units with higher skill ceiling in the game. (e,g. marine)



I see what you are saying. Higher skill ceiling should allow for more exciting spectator experience, right?

IMO that's a pretty tricky design problem so far as SC2 goes. Blizzard has made the decision in SC2 to modernize UI controls, giving players MBS, smart casting, unlimited selection, etc. I agree with this decision because it helps attract a larger player base, and because (see below) UI clunkiness shouldn't be the main reason why a game is hard. On the other hand, the high mechanical requirement for Brood War was one of the reasons why the game was so successful as a professional competitive game.

Theoretically speaking it is possible to reallocate the "lost APM sinks" into other, more combat related tasks in the game such as unit control. This re-allocation of APM is a step forward in game design because unit control is a much more apparent and flashier display of APM than something like macroing really well without MBS, especially for casual viewers. We already see some of that with marine micro and stalker micro. Unfortunately, there probably isn't enough of these micro-able units to make the perceived skill ceiling approach Brood War standards.

The obvious solution to this problem is to simply speed up accelerations, movement speeds, attack animations on a bunch of units, or add more special abilities to existing units, but this solution does have some problems. First, if too many units have uber agility and fast attack animations, then the overall rhythm of combat will become unbalanced. Even in Brood War, only a select few units had incredible micro-ability. This allowed games to have a bit of amazing micro, a bit of large armies clashing, and not just all bog down to micro wars between super-mobile units all the time. Second, if too many activateable special abilities are added, then the game loses its simplicity, which IMO at least is something that StarCraft is famous for (complex interactions between simple units).

I think the best way to tackle this design problem is to give Zerg and Protoss maybe one or two more units that are super mobile and micro-able, then look for other, more creative ways to increase micro. What I specifically have in mind is something like reaver/shuttle micro, where the APM usage is more reactionary than the rhythmic "fly in fly out" of mutalisk micro. SC2 Colossi drops aren't quite at that level yet, and none of the HotS units shown so far seem to allow for something like this (maybe the shredder?).
Logic is Overrated
Keyboard Warrior
Profile Joined December 2011
United States1178 Posts
December 18 2011 12:11 GMT
#14
I really love your take on the balance and design aspect of the game!
The unknown variables must be loose enough to enable creativity and open endedness
Not your regular Keyboard Warrior ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 11h 53m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
CosmosSc2 146
SpeCial 133
Codebar 6
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 673
Larva 270
firebathero 161
ggaemo 98
HiyA 41
Aegong 36
Jaeyun 25
NaDa 17
Dota 2
capcasts235
monkeys_forever209
NeuroSwarm70
League of Legends
JimRising 480
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe88
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor257
Other Games
tarik_tv18730
summit1g11388
gofns8857
Grubby3552
fl0m752
Maynarde101
ROOTCatZ96
ViBE59
JuggernautJason32
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1811
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta194
• RyuSc2 56
• Hupsaiya 44
• Sammyuel 1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift5055
Other Games
• imaqtpie1390
• Shiphtur195
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
11h 53m
OSC
1d
Stormgate Nexus
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
LiuLi Cup
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
HCC Europe
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.