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On November 14 2011 13:43 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 13:36 TheAntZ wrote:On November 14 2011 13:26 shawster wrote:
i disagree with some things but i also really agree with you on that players seem to think that making 4 expos then pumping units is skill. they can't even hold a damn all-in then they complain that all ins are retarded and the game is stupid.
people disregard defense of cheese as skill nowadays which is sad. they also look down upon all-ins which is part of the game and necessary if you want to be a good player so i like that about your blog.
rofl I dont really see anyone in this thread saying cheese defense isnt a useful skill toi have. But just knowing one allin and doing it over and over doesnt take ANY skill. You'd think it took some minimal micro, but nope. You could coast upto high diamond simply by amoving with 4 gate prepatch. Whats annoying is theres people that learn a single allin 6 minute build, do it every game without EVER thinking of a followup, a gameplan, simply by going through the motions that were memorized, because theres never a need to actually make decisions. it's their game and they enjoy it so let them do it. i'm not defending the build i'm saying it's a part of the game and people need to learn how to play against it anyway. all-ins are a part of the damn game.
yes see, the thing is noone denied that the build is part of the game. I think thats pretty obvious.
And yes at diamond or higher your 'learn to play' statement makes sense, 4 gate is easy to see coming, and not a real threat if you make the right moves.
However in lower leagues, players simply dont have the mechanics or experience necessary to consistently make the right decisions against the 4 gate. The reason thats frustrating is that the defender has to divine his opponents strategy, plan a way to crush the allin while still staying ahead economically, and make sure you're not overdefending if the toss simply expanded behind his 4 gates.
and the attacker has to uh...
he has to make 4 gates and attack move. Thats literally all the thought it takes. Whether or not its a part of the game is irrelevant, the point most of the people in this thread are trying to convey is that winning games by 4gating every game isnt something you should brag about, since it takes no actual effort.
On November 14 2011 13:43 shawster wrote:
and please, there are a million qq blogs about all-ins every single day. people always say "i'm better than you because i can play a better macro game than you" but they still lose to cheese and instead of working on practicing against cheese they just rage out or quit. people feel like they are entitled to win because they play a better macro game which is absolute horseshit.
...what the fuck. Of course you're not 'entitled' to win, but if you're a better macro player, that DOES mean you're a better overall player. Being a better macro player means you are better at making decisions, managing your economy, and following a structured gameplan. That does LITERALLY mean being the better player.
Thats why Artosis and Day9 say, the longer a game is, the more likely the better player is to win.
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Love the 4gate, love this blog. 5/5. and it's still good! I'm not as pro as you but I never 1v1'd before the end of last season, 4gated my way from gold to diamond with it, post patch
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I need to work a 4gate into my ladder strats apparently
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Yeah when I was playing Random and I would roll PvP, I would just 4-gate and oftentimes, people wouldn't see it coming. And they end up losing to it. After a while, the higher up I got, the better people defended it.
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good blog 5/5 I enjoyed 4gate pvp's TBH, could move onto better matchups.
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On November 14 2011 13:52 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 13:43 shawster wrote:On November 14 2011 13:36 TheAntZ wrote:On November 14 2011 13:26 shawster wrote:
i disagree with some things but i also really agree with you on that players seem to think that making 4 expos then pumping units is skill. they can't even hold a damn all-in then they complain that all ins are retarded and the game is stupid.
people disregard defense of cheese as skill nowadays which is sad. they also look down upon all-ins which is part of the game and necessary if you want to be a good player so i like that about your blog.
rofl I dont really see anyone in this thread saying cheese defense isnt a useful skill toi have. But just knowing one allin and doing it over and over doesnt take ANY skill. You'd think it took some minimal micro, but nope. You could coast upto high diamond simply by amoving with 4 gate prepatch. Whats annoying is theres people that learn a single allin 6 minute build, do it every game without EVER thinking of a followup, a gameplan, simply by going through the motions that were memorized, because theres never a need to actually make decisions. it's their game and they enjoy it so let them do it. i'm not defending the build i'm saying it's a part of the game and people need to learn how to play against it anyway. all-ins are a part of the damn game. yes see, the thing is noone denied that the build is part of the game. I think thats pretty obvious. And yes at diamond or higher your 'learn to play' statement makes sense, 4 gate is easy to see coming, and not a real threat if you make the right moves. However in lower leagues, players simply dont have the mechanics or experience necessary to consistently make the right decisions against the 4 gate. The reason thats frustrating is that the defender has to divine his opponents strategy, plan a way to crush the allin while still staying ahead economically, and make sure you're not overdefending if the toss simply expanded behind his 4 gates. and the attacker has to uh... he has to make 4 gates and attack move. Thats literally all the thought it takes. Whether or not its a part of the game is irrelevant, the point most of the people in this thread are trying to convey is that winning games by 4gating every game isnt something you should brag about, since it takes no actual effort. Show nested quote +On November 14 2011 13:43 shawster wrote:
and please, there are a million qq blogs about all-ins every single day. people always say "i'm better than you because i can play a better macro game than you" but they still lose to cheese and instead of working on practicing against cheese they just rage out or quit. people feel like they are entitled to win because they play a better macro game which is absolute horseshit.
...what the fuck. Of course you're not 'entitled' to win, but if you're a better macro player, that DOES mean you're a better overall player. Being a better macro player means you are better at making decisions, managing your economy, and following a structured gameplan. That does LITERALLY mean being the better player. Thats why Artosis and Day9 say, the longer a game is, the more likely the better player is to win.
your definition of better player is different than mine. the best player is a player who wins and if you lose your early game cheese you aren't winning. your statement about the longer game showing skill has nothing to do when one player all-ins.
i'm not even addressing pros here, i'm saying that 99% of the community just get mad when they die to all-ins and call the guy a faggot instead of taking the loss in reasonably. the mentality of "i'm a better player than that cheeser" is a detrimental attitude. a better way to go about it is "i'm a better macro player, if i work on cheese defense then i'll be better."
and defending 4 gate isn't as hard as you make it out to be, that's more like defending a 1-1-1 which is 1000x harder. you're saying that plat below players have a hard time defending 4gate but you're overestimating how good a plat and below 4 gater actually is. micro makes a difference.
you're highly exaggerating how effective cheese and all-ins are.
i don't actually care if he brags about it, i'm just objecting to the people who say that he should go die in a hole for 4gating.
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"expand everywhere while abusing some unit composition (infestor,ling- MMM viking ghost --- colossus HT Stalker ball - etc"
As opposed to expanding nowhere and abusing some unit composition (stalker zealot --- maybe sentry) 
Nice try, 4gate is luckily easier to hold post patch, but personally as a zerg the main issue I have with it is that you have to cut workers so damn early to stop it without making 6 spines (not to mention your roach warren) so then if you happen to scout them last you might have already made too many workers
And again you could say scouting earlier etc, which I agree completely, but the thing I dislike a little more than 4gate is the nexus first, which I guess there are ways of stopping cannon rushing your 15hatch, but generally forces a pool first (which in turn makes it harder to hold a 4gate) and you'd fall further behind if you scout on like 12 or whenever it would take to scout all the bases before 4gate.
My post is pretty rant-like anyway, in the end I think both builds are viable and fine, but I also don't think that because you can 4gate people that makes you "better" per se, since it's ladder.
The better player is the winner, but in for example a Bo7 situation, you won't win every game with 4gates, and so if you can't vary your play, you'll lose
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If you're any good at 4 gating you can still get to GM with it, no doubt. It's still VERY strong if you know how to pull it off.
And not that I agree with cheesing every game, but if you like it, why not.
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On November 14 2011 13:36 Chicodog wrote:
Sometimes there is just no better feeling than 4-gating a greedy Terran...
Yeah I love it.
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I need to work on my 4 Gate, still mess up the timing and get distracted by early harassment.
The best thing that I can pull out using 4 Gate is, winning against Very Hard AI under 10 minutes mark.
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United States7639 Posts
4 GATE ALL DAY ERRYDAY. Mmmm, oh yeah, that's the life.
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Norway427 Posts
I don't think you realize why "people hate it".
This is suppose to be "Starcraft's" sequal...
In the beta, protosses 4g, every matchup, every game, even in release, no matter how clever, innovate or cool your strats were, 4g beated it. In korea people just 4g nonstop, it has been broken and retarded many times.
All your reasons are weird and makes little to no sense to me.
ps, lol at saying "ppl who die to it are shit" It's incredible easy to pull off 4g realatively well, a million things far more difficult, and most people who want to become good go for semi fast expand builds, to get a feel and practice for everything anyway. And most Master people who are growing, improving are experimenting a lot, testing out trying things, so it'll make sense and be set in stone for them.
My 2 cents
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IMO all ins in tournaments and stuff are fine. You've probably studied your opponent in depth, seeing where hes greedy or weak etc etc.
But all inning on ladder is IMO a waste of time. People should be playing to improve, not to win. Winning in tournaments is important. Winning on ladder is irrelevant generally just want to boost their e-peen. But generally I love it when people 4gate because it generally means free win for me.
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4gate4life bro
it's kind of sad that you won't really experience any metagame
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On November 14 2011 12:26 th2pun1sh3r wrote:
First blog here on TL - sweet -
Alright so I really love the 4 gate. I know a lot of people here don't like it and they get mad when they lose to it so that's why they complained and blizzard tried to fix it.
lets talk about why the 4 gate is amazing.
1. PVP (this matchup blows and neither player wants to play it) - Before.. you could just 4gate the guy and move on to abuse zergs and terrans in the next game. A 4 gate was a nice reliable way to beat 95% of the ladder and move on. Now with the new ramp changes and forcefield warp in changes its getting a lot easier for noobs to stop.
4 Gate also explains why noobs like you are bad at any other PvP, and so easy to beat now.
2. Getting a new account into masters league for practice (smurf, friends account, new account, etc)
4 gate was the fastest way to get a new account to master league. I mean why would you play a macro game with some gold level noob and waste 20 minutes when you could beat the guy in 5. I remember back in the day I used to 4gate kids all day. I could get a new account into masters within 20 games which would be about 1.4 hours (100 minutes).
Yeah, but you can also just go zerg and 6 pool, and that's even faster
3. 4gate stops bad players dead in their tracks. Lets be honest.. there are a lot of players in the master league that don't quite belong there. Sure they might be able to mass up armies and spend their money but they might suck at micro and have 0 multi tasking. I used to scout the stupidest plays on the way up to masters league and even sometimes within masters. Like I would see a zerg go double expand before pool/gas or I would see a terran build his CC first at the natural or I would see some protoss build a robotics facility and waste all his chrono boost. "I don't think so you noob" I would often say as I warped in my zealots to steal his ladder points. I really loved the 4 gate.
You can defeat a 4gate while building a command center on low ground np.
4. 4gate punishes extremely economic builds. Like those noobs that make 50 drones and have no roach warren. Yeah right buddy.. just warp in like 20 units and rape them. Sometimes you get that terran that wants to "macro up" so he builds like 3 command centers and puts 1 bunker." yeah bro.. 1 bunker isnt going to hold my all in"
I could never do that blindly, because in the end you simply win games because you're bad and you also lose games because you're bad...
5. 4 Gate guarantees that you only lose to good players. If you 4 gate and fail.. it means the enemy player was good enough to hold 4 gate.. and you shouldn't feel too bad about your loss since 95% of ladder can't hold it (this was prepatch btw)
any half decent player can stop it, it only really works if you're meta-gaming your opponent or something, or if it's PvP on TDA.
6. 4gate holds a lot of cheesy plays. So your enemy decided to roach ling all in your 3 gate expand? No way buddy.. u just warp in mad units and rape his push. Oh look the terran decided to do some 3 rax pressure to shut down your expand. Too bad you aren't expanding.. Rape his army and win the game.
this is true, but then why don't you just sit at home and roll a pair of dice instead, why the need to play a multiplayer game at all?
7. 4gate represents a minimalistic attitude.. you build the bare minimum (4 gateways) and spend all your money to make the most powerful timing attack you can. It makes perfect sense. To me.. SC2 will never be about raw macro since there is automining and hotkey groups for buildings. I mean a noob in the gold league can select 5 barracks and produce out of all of them at the same time.. just imagine what platinum and low diamond can do. Sc2 has made macro too easy and it has allowed unskilled players like destiny to skyrocket into GM. These guys just sit on like 2-3k minerals and try to expand everywhere while abusing some unit composition (infestor,ling- MMM viking ghost --- colossus HT Stalker ball - etc )
Destiny has very good macro as far as most other zergs in NA GM goes, and unlike you he's constantly trying to get better...
sounds like you're pissed that you're losing 80% of your games and you don't know how to do anything else, so you dropped to platinum tbh.
8. The bm. I love when other players get angry and try to find reasons for the loss. If you play a macro game and win you will usually get a GG WP at the end. If you beat some baddie with 4 gateways you will usually get some great BM like the following. Thx for reading. 
fun fun
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1.4 hours is not 100 minutes.
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On November 14 2011 18:03 inReacH wrote:
1.4 hours is not 100 minutes.
close enough
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Lets be honest.. there are a lot of players in the master league that don't quite belong there.
Yeah like people who always fucking 4 gate...
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Don't hate the player, hate the game!
I don't play regularly on ladder but when I play against my friends, and it happens to be a PvP... well guess what, it's 4gate vs. 4gate time =D
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The Destiny name-drop was a bit off-putting, but otherwise I like this blog.
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EPT
