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On October 31 2011 23:30 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 22:15 Velr wrote:On October 31 2011 21:17 ninini wrote:On October 31 2011 18:22 Morfildur wrote:
I have to agree with the OP.
I played SC1 and later BW in our small 4-8 player LANS when it came out and still a year later, so i still carry some nostalgia about winning 4 player FFAs, crushing my brother on Lost Temple, etc... but it's the past.
Sure, it requires a ton of skill to play, but so do for example Dune 2 or Warcraft 1/2 (which might even require more skill than BW). The reason why we see a professional BW scene is because it was there at the right time with a lot of luck and the players and community made the game to what it is now, not the game itself. A lot of games might have done it, but they either lacked features ((online) multiplayer, observers, ...), were released at the wrong time or just didn't get lucky (for example Supreme Commander was close to breaking the line).
I still love BW for the memories of childhood times, but it's not capturing me like 12 years ago. I don't get excited when i watch it and i don't have fun playing it (mostly because of unit pathing. I hate dragoons and ultralisks -.- Don't know how i could have enjoyed that 12 years ago).
In the end, players and fans are more important than the game itself. There doesn't have to be a logical reason why you like something (or noone would watch American Football or Soccer).
Why don't you just play Terran? Honestly I think complaints about BW unit pathing is a bit superficial. To me it seems like you're just looking for an excuse, something to complain on, because you didn't want to get into BW in the first place. I can definately see many reasons why you wouldn't want to get into BW. SC2 is just so much more appealing as a community. Anyway, big units in BW like the dragoon are supposed to be a bit clunky. They were designed that way and it makes sense given their size. In fact if dragoons clumped up naturally it would just backfire, because dragoons are the main targets of siege tanks, and the splash damage would kill them. Dragoons were designed to roam in open spaces and snipe powerful units from afar and for that purpose they get the job done without any hiccups. I think the BW pathing along with the magic boxing, which enables you to adjust their rough formation is brilliant. It's more realistic than the tight formations in SC2 and it encourages positional play and micro. Please stop protecting the BW pathfinding. Some units being nearly unable to move down a choke or other narrow pass is NOT good (but this being different would probably alter SC/BW's balance quite a bit ^^). The Magicboxing/lose formations are good... But the path finding? Horrible :D.. You just get used to it but be honest for a moment... If you would play a new game with that Pathfinding nowadays you would never stop complaining ^^. WC3 seemed like a nice mix of SC/BW and SC2 when it comes to the path finding/boxing... The only problem I've had with the pathing is if I want to move a unit down a ramp and it's blocked, then the unit can react a bit unexpectedly and try to find another exit, even though it doesn't exist, but the moment the blocking unit moves, the unit up the ramp will find the way out without you having to reenter the move command. Ideally, the unit would move towards the blocking unit and wait for it to move, but him running around for a while doesn't really bother me. The pathing in BW isn't as bad as ppl think and it's definately better than in SC2 imo, where everything just move like blobs. The AI can be a bit stupid when units are moving out of range, like goliaths against Carriers, but if they "fixed" that issue there would be other "issues". Some ppl also complain about no smart aiming. But that would just make siege tanks overpowered and doesn't really add anything, and it doesn't really make sense either in terms of realism. Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 22:37 Velr wrote:
It is every unit that has the size of a Gholiat or more (which is many?).
It is extremly bad.
Seriously, when your used to it you don't notice it that much because you begin to construct your whole base with the AI in mind... If you're not used to it (anymore) it's bad, really, really bad. There is absolutely no reason why you would have to construct your base with the AI in mind, the only thing I can think of (although it has nothing to do with AI) is scv's or produced units getting stuck between buildings, but that's called sloppy building placements and can happen in most rts games.
It several times happened to me (after i started playing it often/serious) that the "pathing" would like to send my Dragoons out of my base via the Probeline, which for Dragoons is like a solid Wall....
Was my baselayout stupid? Sure... Well, actually no, Dragoons were just stupid and thats why my baselayout was stupid...
Seriously, i love SC/BW... But defending the pathfinding of it's units is just total and utter bullshit.
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When a bunch of guys tell a pretty girl she is wrong, the girl should think very carefully about what she said.
I don't want to be sexist or insulting, but I honestly don't think you know enough about SC to write this blog.
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It's just...No offense to her, really, but she is just some random girl saying that she doesn't "feel the magic". And there are thousands of hundreds people out there who say the same stuff - will you go out and "teach them your ways"?
It wouldn't be a problem if she simply said she couldn't "feel the magic". She said the game didn't have that magic that makes it different from any other game. She then went on to say that it is in reality a well made RTS as any other well made RTS which just got luckier and made a huge community. That it's glory wasn't due to it's inherent qualities but was created by the community which randomly picked it up and somehow came to like it.
I'm sorry to say that this is a fallacy which can be generalized.
Just applied to music, it's like saying that masterpieces of classical music aren't masterpieces because of what they have but because they are old and liked by a lot of people for too long.
Or Dune (the books) is just another science fiction saga with all the rest and this statement; "I know nothing comparable to it, accept the lord of the rings." by Arthur C. Clarke was a mere result of good old times he spent with it and the lord of the rings, which happen to be another fruit of mass coincidence.
I don't want to go on with this but I can't help it so one last example. The OP is like saying physics isn't fascinating and intriguing because the universe is inherently complex and wonderful but because Richard Feynman spent a lot of time working on path integrals and happened to be a great speaker at the same time.
No, BW and 9th symphony and Dune and the Universe are all inherently wonderful. Nerds appreciate and love these because they have the magic.
Nerds are extremely picky people, what were you thinking really?
EDIT: fixed some grammar
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And personally I find football incredibly boring to watch, and don't understand the craze that people can have for that game. Come on, every match looks the same, the clock never starts/stops in any reasonable sense, and they've been playing on the same map for like 80 years now. Emotional attachment to that game makes zero sense to me.
But broodwar... <3 so many memories.
On October 31 2011 16:16 Jumperer wrote:
You don't get it because you're a girl. Female's brain are wired differently than Male. This is why Men can't stand twilight while female continues to obsessed over with it.
Oh please. I grew up with this game, and it's still magic to me.
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On November 01 2011 00:54 -_- wrote:
When a bunch of guys tell a pretty girl she is wrong, the girl should think very carefully about what she said.
I don't want to be sexist or insulting, but I honestly don't think you know enough about SC to write this blog.
What? Do you just blindly agree with anything a girl says just because she's attractive? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard
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On November 01 2011 01:01 Skullflower wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 00:54 -_- wrote:
When a bunch of guys tell a pretty girl she is wrong, the girl should think very carefully about what she said.
I don't want to be sexist or insulting, but I honestly don't think you know enough about SC to write this blog. What? Do you just blindly agree with anything a girl says just because she's attractive? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard
Is this really what you get from his post?
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I started watching SOME BW vods on Youtube. I watched the OSL live with some friends a few weeks back. I got myself a copy of BW, and PLAYED PARTS of the campaign, and even A FEW games over LAN with friends.
Sounds like you have a really informed opinion there.
+ Show Spoiler +I watched a game of basketball the other day. I didn't like it. It wasn't magical. Therefore it's on a par with rock, paper, scissors
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I will just give you one very good example.
Did you follow the MLB Playoffs 2011? Doesn't matter if you are an American Football fan, or hater of baseball, but if you followed along, it was indeed MAGICAL.
Magic of St Louis and Tampa coming back 10 games behind and making the playoffs LAST GAME of the season (and Evan Longoria's HR and tampa's zombie mode was EPIC).
St. Louis's magical run and doing the impossible beating the Phillies and manhandling Brewers and then game 6, where even more magic happened, they came back from deficit 6 times in 1 game, and won with walk off home run.
So, isn't this magical? Will you say Baseball has no appeal or nothing special in the game?
Well, BW is just like this. The last OSL final was identical to the playoffs. Jangbi's run to victory was indeed incredible.
OP, I can't help but to feel that you are just a nasty troll. As someone above me said, if you said 'I don't feel there is nothing magical about the game' would have been OK. We understand that.
You saying 'BW is nothing special and the game itself has nothing magical, but its just cuz of us being emotionally attached' tells us that you are a fool.
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I think you're right in that it did get lucky because Blizzard failed to replicate it's perfection, which they would have been able to if they actually knew entirely what they were doing when they made BW in the first place. The fact that they couldn't makes me want to say it's just hit-or-miss luck as far as the design goes.
I disagree entirely on the idea that it doesn't have "the magic" and that it isn't more wonderful than every other RTS game, or on the idea that it doesn't sparkle. You're right that pure audience numbers don't guarantee correctness, but it does mean something, what that is is up for debate but I would be one of the people who argued that it is actually so popular because it's so good.
You've got points about what actually makes a game valuable or not and you're right to say part of what that is is the experience of growing with it with other people, but I think it's more than just that, the fact that it was such an intrinsically good game made that experience all the more popular and enjoyable and long-lasting, which further allowed people to grow with it. The two seem exclusive to you but I think they've got a pretty strong correlation with one another.
If you can't see the magic in BW, I would argue that it's because it's much harder for someone to appreciate an older game, no matter how good it is, just because they have preconceived standards and expectations based on the current state of gaming they exist in. An older game you try for the first time that doesn't meet these standards and expectations immediately fails to be perceived by you as special since you're focused on what you believe to be "flaws".
TL;DR: I think you've got a point in that Starcraft being a great game isn't a 100% objective universal truth, but I think you go wrong in saying that it's 100% subjective and entirely relative as well. I definitely think there is intrinsic value in SCBW that makes it the greatest game ever made, but that's something I don't think you can convince someone of either way, they have to see it for themselves.
You can bring a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49496 Posts
On November 01 2011 01:01 Skullflower wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 00:54 -_- wrote:
When a bunch of guys tell a pretty girl she is wrong, the girl should think very carefully about what she said.
I don't want to be sexist or insulting, but I honestly don't think you know enough about SC to write this blog. What? Do you just blindly agree with anything a girl says just because she's attractive? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard
no,read his post again.
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On November 01 2011 01:22 Chef wrote:
Sorry, but you're wrong.
Yeah, pretty much. StarCraft IS magic, and if you failed to see it, then you're blind.
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On October 31 2011 23:03 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 16:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On October 31 2011 16:50 p4NDemik wrote:On October 31 2011 16:44 HawaiianPig wrote:On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote:
These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over. ahahahahahahaha where are the CJ fans at? I was casually reading through this thread until I get to the 3rd page then WHAM suckerpunch. Damn you Hpig. STX ;_; Yeah, except STX never makes it into the Playoffs LOL! :3
Woooooooooooow.
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You pretty much only have to reply to Rekrul's post. Did the best job of putting together all the points you ignored. I think you just approached this the wrong way. You gave evidence of why you thought BW didn't have magic, then stated it in a way that it simply doesn't have magic. You are 1 person, a girl who doesn't fully grasp what and where TL came from, or what and where BW came from. It wasn't your intent, but thats incredibly offensive. That's like reading the US constitution and shrugging no big deal, there's no genius in this. Lots of people gave sweat and blood and lives and careers to this game. Other video games have similar qualities but they don't catch the attention of an entire nation, are mentioned regularly outside of their own world, last for 10+ years etc..
Instead of saying ' magic ' doesn't exist in bw. You should have said it doesn't exist FOR YOU, or ask why everyone else sees it but you don't. I mean can you honestly look at yourself and say that you know or did enough to make a huge overarching judgement like bw doesn't have magic?
I wonder what someone like you thinks about chess. Is this game too without magic? Or does the magic only exist because of all the learning systems and memories built around it?
Edit: The best part is, its hard to understand how even after writing out your anecdotes and fond memories of Green bay you don't understand that you are exactly like the fans who only watch the superbowl to watch the superbowl. Do you honestly understand a personality like Boxer? Or you actually think there's a game that would have attracted and nurtured someone like him? White-ra? You realize there's bigger fan clubs for broodwar players than people like Brett Favre? It's not a fucking once a year spectacle like the superbowl. It's a 10+ year tradition.
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On October 31 2011 20:43 SarR wrote:
But to be fair to RedJustice, I understand what she is trying to say. Basically she is speaking of the emotional attachment fans have come to develop over the years as its true "magic". Its an interesting hypothesis with merit. Give her a break.
Yes, totally. But I would still disagree with her. I joined TL in late 2009 (exclusively because BW caught my interest), and from then on I was hooked. I was waking up at 5am to watch BW matches live... because I really wanted to.
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Ok, I have now read through all of these comments and thought on them.
First thing-- my sex should be completely irrelevant to any discussion not involving female biology or possibly relationship blogs. Thanks.
Second thing-- I'm really not trolling, this is my opinion, and I'm trying to have a discussion about it because I want to hear what other people have to say.
Third thing (most important)--
I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind.
I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge.
I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch.
I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome).
I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it.
One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other?
What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize. 
I have also seen a lot of angry or hurt-- well you just don't understand, you're wrong.
Maybe I am wrong, and so are a lot of other people, but we would be stupid to believe you because you said so. I didn't spend a long time with the game, it is true. I spent long enough to say-- well I wasn't immediately blown away by it so don't think that feeling comes from the game then.
I have seen many good posts on BW, trying to convince others to really look at it and enjoy it. There are posts like that in this thread. These are positive, but mostly still have this assumption that doing x, y, and z suggestions will convert someone to feeling a certain way. I don't think it's enough, and the insistence that it is probably hurts the cause. If you care about it that much, try something new! Find a different way to help people see what you see in the game.
The discussions in various sc2 vs bw threads have pretty much done nothing. Not a lot of people are wandering over and exploring of their own free will. Most of what you get exposed to of the BW community outside of the BW forum is all the negative stuff going on.
Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW?
This has now drifted away from my original post to an extent-- but I would like to offer something more constructive than just my opinion, and also more insight into how my opinion was formed.
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Baa?21242 Posts
On October 31 2011 23:03 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2011 16:51 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On October 31 2011 16:50 p4NDemik wrote:On October 31 2011 16:44 HawaiianPig wrote:On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote:
These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over. ahahahahahahaha where are the CJ fans at? I was casually reading through this thread until I get to the 3rd page then WHAM suckerpunch. Damn you Hpig. STX ;_; Yeah, except STX never makes it into the Playoffs LOL! :3
Yeah except for the last three seasons in a row but OK.
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On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote:
My conclusion is this:
BW doesn't have that magic-- that special something that makes it more wonderful than any other game, or any other RTS, or w/e. It doesn't have that sparkle. On it's own, it is just an incredibly well-made RTS that got lucky in some ways, and stuck around long enough to develop beyond what we have seen in other games. It's challenging, it's fun, it's exciting to watch and play (and frustrating).
The magic of BW (or any game for that matter) is in the experience of growing with a game for so long.
I only read until here and.. yeah well this is just so retarded.
I can still remember the first time i saw starcraft. It was, uh, I I guess the first mission as terran of the campaign. CC, couple of scvs, mineral blocks.
I just saw the scvs mining, a marine being produced and I instantly fell in love with the game.
What you have to realize is that the game was released in 1998(?). I had played Dune2, warcraft 1 (and 2? puh i might mix things up) and C&c and starcraft was just SO MUCH better in ever aspect.
But that's not the main reason why it was awesome. You didn't have to buy it to play it with friends. There is a multi-player only install option. How many games did that have? And the free to use battle.net, which was probably the best invention blizzard ever made. It was MADE to being played with friends.
So we played it, and god damn we loved it.
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On November 01 2011 00:54 -_- wrote:
When a bunch of guys tell a pretty girl she is wrong, the girl should think very carefully about what she said.
I don't want to be sexist or insulting, but I honestly don't think you know enough about SC to write this blog.
Yea, because womens ideas are respected more ??? No sexism on the internet whatsover, none 
I think you got it backwards.
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EPT
