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On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote:Ok, I have now read through all of these comments and thought on them. First thing-- my sex should be completely irrelevant to any discussion not involving female biology or possibly relationship blogs. Thanks. Second thing-- I'm really not trolling, this is my opinion, and I'm trying to have a discussion about it because I want to hear what other people have to say. Third thing (most important)-- I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind. I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge. I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch. I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome). I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it. One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other? What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2? If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize.  I have also seen a lot of angry or hurt-- well you just don't understand, you're wrong. Maybe I am wrong, and so are a lot of other people, but we would be stupid to believe you because you said so. I didn't spend a long time with the game, it is true. I spent long enough to say-- well I wasn't immediately blown away by it so don't think that feeling comes from the game then. I have seen many good posts on BW, trying to convince others to really look at it and enjoy it. There are posts like that in this thread. These are positive, but mostly still have this assumption that doing x, y, and z suggestions will convert someone to feeling a certain way. I don't think it's enough, and the insistence that it is probably hurts the cause. If you care about it that much, try something new! Find a different way to help people see what you see in the game. The discussions in various sc2 vs bw threads have pretty much done nothing. Not a lot of people are wandering over and exploring of their own free will. Most of what you get exposed to of the BW community outside of the BW forum is all the negative stuff going on. Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW? This has now drifted away from my original post to an extent-- but I would like to offer something more constructive than just my opinion, and also more insight into how my opinion was formed.
Show some 15 years old kid of today games like Enduro, Super Mario World, International Superstar Soccer, see them saying this games suck and have nothing special about it, and realize how wrong you are
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On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote:Ok, I have now read through all of these comments and thought on them. First thing-- my sex should be completely irrelevant to any discussion not involving female biology or possibly relationship blogs. Thanks. Second thing-- I'm really not trolling, this is my opinion, and I'm trying to have a discussion about it because I want to hear what other people have to say. Third thing (most important)-- I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind. I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge. I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch. I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome). I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it. One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other? What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2? If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize. I have also seen a lot of angry or hurt-- well you just don't understand, you're wrong. Maybe I am wrong, and so are a lot of other people, but we would be stupid to believe you because you said so. I didn't spend a long time with the game, it is true. I spent long enough to say-- well I wasn't immediately blown away by it so don't think that feeling comes from the game then. I have seen many good posts on BW, trying to convince others to really look at it and enjoy it. There are posts like that in this thread. These are positive, but mostly still have this assumption that doing x, y, and z suggestions will convert someone to feeling a certain way. I don't think it's enough, and the insistence that it is probably hurts the cause. If you care about it that much, try something new! Find a different way to help people see what you see in the game. The discussions in various sc2 vs bw threads have pretty much done nothing. Not a lot of people are wandering over and exploring of their own free will. Most of what you get exposed to of the BW community outside of the BW forum is all the negative stuff going on. Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW? This has now drifted away from my original post to an extent-- but I would like to offer something more constructive than just my opinion, and also more insight into how my opinion was formed. BW isnt designed for the masses of casual gamers, its too hard compared to cod, lol, sc2. In a sense, the very essence of BW defines its elitist fan base, so it is little surprise we behave as we do. And yeah, thats why its struggling.
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This is nonsense and its shameful, that such topic is discussed on tl.
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I respect the OP's opinion, and what she's saying is true about a lot of sports, but to flat out say that the "magic isn't there" is quite wrong. It just might not be your cup of tea, but you can't objectify "magic". Ultimately, I think what it comes down to is: in BW, as in football/soccer and also a lot of other sports/games, it may be easy to understand the rules, but to actually play it well is a lot harder.
In football/soccer, for example, the true hardcore dedicated fans like the game because of its strategic depth, technical finesse, physical demands, and the sheer complexity that is present each and every time two teams step on the field and battle it out. Then there are just casual fans who like the game because of the crowd atmosphere in the stadium or the culture behind the game. The latter are still fans, but just for different reasons. The casual fans of football/soccer might say that there is no inherent "magic" in the game, but there is so-called "magic" in things like atmosphere, culture, the way the game is understood all around the world and can bridge cultures. I don't think it's a coincidence that most casual fans themselves have not tried to play the game but just enjoy watching others playing it on a high level, and there is nothing wrong with that. The hardcore fans and the casual fans both enjoy the game, and it actually would not be right to put them in such distinct groups, as a hardcore fan might share some perspectives with a casual fan, and vice versa, but both contribute to making the game great.
The same is/was true for BW. Before SC2 was announced, BW had hardcore fans as well as casual fans. Even back in those days you had people who would watch pro matches and feel the atmosphere and culture of the game, but not be able to get it into it themselves on a competitive level or understand the intricacies and subtleties of playing the game. A good illustration would be the iccup people as the hardcore fans and the BGH/Fastest people as more casual. With SC2 coming out, a lot of the "casuals" switched to SC2 (Korean and foreign pros who were either not doing well in BW anymore or saw greater financial opportunities in SC2 made the switch, but many of these former BW pros will tell you that BW is a better designed game).
Overall, I would say that SC2 was good for the esports scene, but the BW fans back in the day were not concerned about turning BW into an esport like many SC2 fans are now, they just played because it was fun, exciting, and a good way to make friends (and also because there was something attractive about the game that kept us coming back for more). BW took off in Korea because PC bangs were popular in the late 90s and BW was easily available to play and simple to understand, but it took a while for the esports scene to grow.
In conclusion, it's fine if the OP doesn't "get" what us hardcore BWers enjoy about the game, but we should at least acknowledge that she has tried to feel the passion and the intensity which we feel. Maybe this just shows that some people are meant to be casual fans of BW, and this is perfectly fine. Not everyone in the stadium at the World Cup is a hardcore fan, and there is nothing wrong with that.
At the end of the day, BW vs SC2 discussions are pointless. But this is exactly what Blizzard intended. They don't care about BW anymore, and they don't want SC2 fans to care about it either. All they care about is money, but as fans of esports we are above that. If we take the time to understand each other, we might find that BW and SC2 fans share a lot in common. But for some reason we are unable to express that feeling without being barraged by complaints of "BW elitism" or "SC2 fanboyism".
EDIT: I'm not saying that BW is a better game than SC2 or CoD or anything like that. Every game has it fans, both hardcore and casual. But it's wrong for a SC2 fan to tell a BW fan that "BW is dead", or "stop living in the past", or "bad graphics, bad unit pathing", whatever it may be. It's just as wrong for a BW fan to say to a SC2 fan that they are "noobs" or like the "shiny new toy" or that they "just don't understand". The trouble comes from SC2 hogging the spotlight most of the time, which leads to SC2 fans pushing their views on BW fans, and BW fans reacting by acting stuck up. These two games can coexist, only Blizzard wants to phase out BW
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United States22154 Posts
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote:
Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW?
They are.
Really, they are!
And those five threads were found without looking too hard.
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On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote:
The magic of BW (or any game for that matter) is in the experience of growing with a game for so long. The game means so much to people because of the time and emotion they have invested in it-- as spectators, players, or both.
I really disagree with this. I started playing SC when it first came, but all I did was play UMS games and money maps with some friends. I had no idea of professional play and completely forgot about the game for years until I was somehow linked to the GOM averatec season 1 stuff with Tasteless and I was instantly blown away and hooked. Have you watched the english casts with Tasteless? I think that really helped give me a better understanding of the game at first.
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On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote:Ok, I have now read through all of these comments and thought on them. First thing-- my sex should be completely irrelevant to any discussion not involving female biology or possibly relationship blogs. Thanks. Second thing-- I'm really not trolling, this is my opinion, and I'm trying to have a discussion about it because I want to hear what other people have to say. Third thing (most important)-- I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind. I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge. I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch. I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome). I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it. One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other? What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2? If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize. I have also seen a lot of angry or hurt-- well you just don't understand, you're wrong. Maybe I am wrong, and so are a lot of other people, but we would be stupid to believe you because you said so. I didn't spend a long time with the game, it is true. I spent long enough to say-- well I wasn't immediately blown away by it so don't think that feeling comes from the game then. I have seen many good posts on BW, trying to convince others to really look at it and enjoy it. There are posts like that in this thread. These are positive, but mostly still have this assumption that doing x, y, and z suggestions will convert someone to feeling a certain way. I don't think it's enough, and the insistence that it is probably hurts the cause. If you care about it that much, try something new! Find a different way to help people see what you see in the game. The discussions in various sc2 vs bw threads have pretty much done nothing. Not a lot of people are wandering over and exploring of their own free will. Most of what you get exposed to of the BW community outside of the BW forum is all the negative stuff going on. Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW? This has now drifted away from my original post to an extent-- but I would like to offer something more constructive than just my opinion, and also more insight into how my opinion was formed.
First of all thanks for being such a great troll.
I would also like to say that it's incredibly heart warming to see that people still believe in their love for bw.
I'll try to keep this post short.
It's impossible to explain why bw is such a great, rather greatest game ever made , without writing extensively. As such, it's understandable that typical arguements found on tl as to why bw is so good may not seem appealing to the unknowledgeable, as none of them can fully convey a proper explanation.
It's rather obvious why bw no longer attracts the masses: a strong lack of financial support (i.e. advertising/infrastructure), and the general ignorance of Man. The first reason is self-explanatory. The video game industry has long evolved since its inception, and can be argued to have be become a form of mass media (hopefully I'm not misusing terms). As such, being a product for the masses, video games seem to be converging in terms of what is expected of them (such as improved graphics/UI/AI, and so on). This sets social standards (at least in western society??) of what defines a game as being good or bad. It can therefore be argued that bw, from these set perspectives, is a bad game.
It is hard trying to convince people whom uphold certain prejudices/preconceptions about anything really, to perhaps entertain a different point of view (e.g. capitalists <-> communists), as they are so bound by their inherent ideas, that they are incapable of seperating themselves from those ideas, hence ignorance.
Why don't people think bw is a good game? Because they're ignorant.
Sorry if it seems rather incoherent, and of course the conclusion seems abrupt, but I don't want to have a huge post. Essentially, the majority of ppl have come to think games need x,y to be good, and bw does not fit these criterias, so ppl ignorantly dismiss bw because they are incapable of adopting a different approach to what makes a good game.
The only hope we have is to educate others on why bw is so good, but to truly appreciate bw, one must actually play it extensively.
Just as an edit: Not all opinions are good. Though people should be entitled to their opinions, uneducated opinions are worthless when approaching a specific topic, which already has its own set of "experts".
Also assume my definition of "best game" to be what bw is lol, but of course this is in the realm of rts.
I know using an assumption of what constitutes human nature (ignorance) is rather dangerous and perhaps irrelevant to a proper arguement, but I'll live with that.
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On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote:One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other? What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2? If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize.
It's really not that easy to expose the newer generation to the greatness of BW. Most of them have been conditioned to want the best new graphics, and they can't get past BW's aged appearance. I could try to go out and explain why BW is so awesome (and IMO better than SC2) but they're not gonna believe me.
It seems that car analogies are popular, so I will use one. For the newer generation, It's all about the shiny new car, even if the specs under the hood are not as good as the old model. Maybe I can convince them to try out the old model, and they'll drive it around the block a couple times, but they'll just dismiss it as a bumpy ride, nothing special. They'll attribute my enthusiasm to things like nostalgia, emotional attachment, etc
Maybe there is some truth to the nostalgia aspect, but it's not like I had the same enthusiasm for every other game that came around. There was something about Brood War that drew me to it. Whatever that something is, that's Magic.
If we could so easily define what Magic is, then we'd be able to recreate it and emulate the result with any other great game. But the fact is that we cannot define it, and that's why it's called Magic.
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Hmm, I played broodwar much more than I have played any other game. I enjoyed the competition of it more than I have from any other game. SC2 doesn't even come close. This isn't because of something emotional or sentimental, it's because I thought the game was way better.
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On October 31 2011 23:52 Schplyok wrote:
Broodwar isn't broken.
A broken game is one that has a dominant strategy. When a game has a dominant strategy it degenerates - no one uses any other strategies besides the dominant one. Sometimes when the game is complex enough (all RTS games basically) it may take a very long time to discover a dominant strategy. An you can totally have fun with a broken game until you find a dominant strategy.
Remember AOE2? Fun, right? Well, it's broken. Everyone who plays it competitively uses huns. Imagine Broodwar big in Korea and everyone playing zerg. Sounds stupid.
That's why Broodwar is big and other games aren't.
I don't think there are any RTS games besides Broodwar that are proven not broken, yet.
The way you frame it, Broodwar isn't *proven* to not be broken. It's possible the dominant strategies just haven't been discovered yet. :D
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if there's no "magic" in bw then show me which other game spontaneously generated its own self-sustaining league spanning a decade, has 2 TV channels dedicated to its broadcast, and 10 years after release IS STILL on the shelves at Wal-mart? It's quite "magical" that a temporal commodity like a video game can have that kind of vitality, creating "E-sports" as we know it. The "magic" of bw is real enough that Blizzard was able to generate a worldwide following and their own (fake) version called "ESPORTS," just by milking the old source. Sadly, the way things work is that there can only be one starcraft, just like it's always either chess or checkers, football or soccer, baseball or cricket. So yeah, broodwar's gonna die, and SC2 fans everywhere can rejoice. SC2's got a certain similarity to what made bw great, but it's real pulling power is better graphics, mass marketing, more casual friendly gameplay. SC2, not bw, is the game that's just like all the rest. But when the next big thing comes out with better graphics and even more noob-friendly gameplay guess what? The masses of UMS noobs who currently inflate SC2's popularity will move on like the sheep they are. Notice that all the top SC2 players are drawn from the hardcore broodwar and wc3 communities- at its core the pro SC2 community is just an artificial transplantation of the broodwar and wc3 communties. If there was no SC1 to begin with and SC2 was released today, it wouldn't have any more traction than the latest CoD release. The life it lives is borrowed, or rather, stolen, from its predecessor.
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On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok, I have now read through all of these comments and thought on them. First thing-- my sex should be completely irrelevant to any discussion not involving female biology or possibly relationship blogs. Thanks. Second thing-- I'm really not trolling, this is my opinion, and I'm trying to have a discussion about it because I want to hear what other people have to say. Third thing (most important)-- I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind. I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge. I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch. I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome). I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it. One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other? What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2? If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize. I have also seen a lot of angry or hurt-- well you just don't understand, you're wrong. Maybe I am wrong, and so are a lot of other people, but we would be stupid to believe you because you said so. I didn't spend a long time with the game, it is true. I spent long enough to say-- well I wasn't immediately blown away by it so don't think that feeling comes from the game then. I have seen many good posts on BW, trying to convince others to really look at it and enjoy it. There are posts like that in this thread. These are positive, but mostly still have this assumption that doing x, y, and z suggestions will convert someone to feeling a certain way. I don't think it's enough, and the insistence that it is probably hurts the cause. If you care about it that much, try something new! Find a different way to help people see what you see in the game. The discussions in various sc2 vs bw threads have pretty much done nothing. Not a lot of people are wandering over and exploring of their own free will. Most of what you get exposed to of the BW community outside of the BW forum is all the negative stuff going on. Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW? This has now drifted away from my original post to an extent-- but I would like to offer something more constructive than just my opinion, and also more insight into how my opinion was formed. Try watching TvZ games. TvZ, for some reason, has arguably the most of the "magic" that makes BW so great. Its hard to describe.. Sure, PvT is fun too, but when you compare it to the top TvZ games,.. tvz just has something that triggers absolute joy when watching it.
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Corinthos
Canada1842 Posts
You will find the magic after meeting the people who have BW passion as well.
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god, people could you stop with the sexism and your fucking stupid use of the word "troll"
@OP your point in your last post seems to be "if its such a great game, why isnt it more popular"
Since when does being good mean accessible? what does popularity say about how good it is?
How many kids would rather listen to Lady Gaga than to Led Zeppelin.
Watching a few BW games and playing some doesnt mean youre gonna fall in love.
BW isnt for everyone, that says nothing about its quality as a game, and also playing a few games doesnt mean you understand anything about the game. Have you played iccup? whats your rank? if its below d+ than you obviously dont know the slightest bit about the game. (and then theres c-,c,c+,b-,b,b+,a-,a - all these ranks have a very significant difference in how good these people are at the game, whereas for example in SC2 you could just stuff all these people into the "masters" category)
I dont understand whats great about Picassos paintings... that doesnt mean that people who do love his work only do so because of their personal experience and because of their subjective biased perspective... its just that these people know more about art, and they know what is so brilliant about it, I don't. Just cause Ive looked at some paintings of his and dont feel the "magic" doesnt mean it isn't there.
I actually agree with a good amount of your original post... i mean the whole experience thing of course adds a LOT to your love of the game, but it isnt the original cause for all of it.
On November 01 2011 03:49 Corinthos wrote:
You will find the magic after meeting the people who have BW passion as well.
well that statement just supports what the OP is saying
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On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote:
One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other?
What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
On page 6, I offered the opinion that the quality of BW that makes people so passionate about it is its depth when subjected to extended study and practice. I think this is why people like you and I don't find ourselves getting sucked in by the game.
I've probably made a similar effort to you to expose myself to it. I own a copy, I've played through the campaign, and have watched some VODs, but playing the game is just not as satisfying an experience to me in a basic, visceral sense as playing Starcraft 2. What I HAVEN'T done is invested the time or effort to explore the subtlety of the game that's so dear to the BW crowd.
The barrier to entry for Brood War is high. The minimum skill level necessary to win even one game on any of the ladders out there takes a long time to achieve. Appreciating the strategic complexity of the game even as a viewer takes watching a lot of games and learning something about how the ways players play today have developed. Since BW doesn't have a strong following outside of Korea or any major western tournament presence, a potential viewer has to wade through a lot of Korean-language content to get a complete picture of the current state of the game (though some English-language commentary is out there.) Also, the game is old enough that it's possible to run into issues even getting it running on a PC with a recent version of Windows (not to mention that the Mac version won't run under the latest Mac OS, and Blizzard has announced that it's officially ended support for that version of the product.)
What this means is that a new player, or even viewer, who wants to learn the game has a lot of hurdles to overcome before they can ever get far enough into it to start to experience that depth that makes the BW crowd passionate about their game.
RedJustice, I don't know that you can judge the question of BW's "magic" without putting in an extraordinary amount of time and effort. The question is, is it worth it to you to do that? For me, the answer was, well, not really. I accept that I'll never be part of the BW crowd because I just don't wish to put in that time or effort to get to the point where I can access the complexity that they love about it. But, precisely because of how passionate even those who came to the game ten years after its release are, I am willing to accept at face value that the magic is there, deeper than I'm prepared to look for it.
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I thought this was going to be a blog on how awesome BW is
This game is fun, in fact, more fun then a lot of games I played
To flat out say, BW is good not because the game itself is amazing just strike me as ignorance
The other factors are there sure, but that is the same for every game
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On November 01 2011 03:42 Savant wrote:
Blizzard was able to generate a worldwide following and their own (fake) version called "ESPORTS,"
This is confusing. "E-sports" is not a term that originated with Blizzard.
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JIJIyO
Canada1957 Posts
I love the fact that Rekrul calls it SC and not BW.
Whenever I would play games with my friends we would always be like "Yoyoyoyyo scscsc?" Good times. Had like 6 of us who would constantly play games with each other. Shit was so good.......that was only like 2 years ago too =/ A lot of them moved on to sc2 or stopped playing SC in general. Sad times.
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On November 01 2011 02:57 AhhBoxxah wrote:
Why don't people think bw is a good game? Because they're ignorant.
Oh, please. It's perfectly valid for someone to feel, for whatever reason, that BW isn't much fun, or that they don't want to get far enough into it to see its strong points. As for "greatest game ever made," BW isn't even in the running. Try something like chess or go, both of which have been played in pretty much their current state for centuries.
Even if you limit that to computer games, where it is certainly in the running, you're going to have to go up against Pac-Man, Quake, Tetris, and Super Mario Brothers.
Edit: I don't say this to say bad things about BW as a game, just to point out that painting people who aren't engaged by it as idiots isn't a way to win anyone over. Of course, if you just want to call those people idiots, knock yourself out, I guess!
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EPT
