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On July 15 2011 09:56 Malyce wrote:
The results from the quote are unpublished. There are two different studies in the paper.
The thing is, you can't make a reasonable conclusion from a summary of a research paper. It would require a very meticulous overview of the methodology used.
There can be a million reasons for which the study showed the results it did. Assuming it is biological disparity is pushing it.
Also if IQ doesn't even measure intelligence, there is no point in having this debate. At the very most one could conclude that certain men are predisposed to do well on IQ tests.
^^^ I editted my post to make it longer above.
Also, you can read the whole paper here. I don't think you understand IQ tests that well. They do statistical analysis on things to eliminate biases. I would suggest reading the paper.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1348/000712605X53542/full
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Honestly, we're not in a bind. I wish people would consider the idea that maybe, just maybe, we're not at fault for creating an environment that does not foster female participation and that women in the majority probably just don't give a damn about video games, much less ESPORTS.
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Honestly, there will never be gender equality. Simple because women are not like, nor are, men. Maybe there's a reason why we live in a male-dominated world. Can I go outside and pick a fight with some random women on the street? No. With 100% gender equality? What would be the difference of fighting a girl or a guy?
No such thing as equality, at least to a degree. But even so, even reaching that degree of acceptable with females, it will never change the fact that its a women and not a man, and just because you don't see it that way, other people do, and with 6+billion I'm pretty certain it will be a very long time til humans ever reach that stage.
For activist trying to push equality....good luck.
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On July 15 2011 11:32 Ajnin wrote:
Can I go outside and pick a fight with some random women on the street? No.
I hope you don't think it's any more acceptable to go pick a fight with random men on the street...
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Did you really need a spin-off blog on this topic? -_-
Anyways, I already replied to this exact same argument in the other blog, so I'll just reiterate again: that person is an unknown amateur gamer with no distinguishable history or accomplishments. That person being female is the only remarkable and news-worthy (this part is debatable though) fact. It's only reasonable and rational for people to talk about it.
If you want to turn this into a political or ethical issue, your gripe is with the people in SlayerS who decided to treat her as promotional eye-candy and made this signing more public than it really should have been, and partially with the OP of the TL thread who carried this piece of non-important news over here. They decided to give her attention for the sole reason of being female. They are the cause of the problem - random forum people reacting to it in one way or the other are really not.
The whole gender equality issue (at least on TL) is blown waaaay out of proportion and can be (and normally is) sorted out with a slightly more aggressive moderation. Just like the idiots get banned for all kinds of... well, idiocy, they'll get banned for this too.
No need to write what's essentially an attention blog to fuel the flames even more.
PS. And I'm going to say this as a Slayers fan - after losing two games at the start of the season, coming up with this publicity stunt does not make me happy and I can't see how it can be good for the team (I can think of a number of reasons why it can be bad though). But that's a story for a different topic.
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On July 15 2011 11:32 Ajnin wrote:
Honestly, there will never be gender equality. Simple because women are not like, nor are, men. Maybe there's a reason why we live in a male-dominated world. Can I go outside and pick a fight with some random women on the street? No. With 100% gender equality? What would be the difference of fighting a girl or a guy?
No such thing as equality, at least to a degree. But even so, even reaching that degree of acceptable with females, it will never change the fact that its a women and not a man, and just because you don't see it that way, other people do, and with 6+billion I'm pretty certain it will be a very long time til humans ever reach that stage.
For activist trying to push equality....good luck.
I think the "equality" in this context is used with the meaning of equality as in the French Revolution, not in a mathematical sense. The kind of "equality" that is about a normal person having the same vote as a billionaire and getting the same rights in court, etc.
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Personally I would be so much more excited about the SlayerS pickup if it was a male. We know why they picked up Eve. But if it was a diamond league male, it would be Boxers official prodigy, and that would be amazing. I never comment on progamers looks in general, I'm probably not the only one. (although I did vote Grubby as sexiest male progamer in some thread). The one problem I have is the women who use their looks as a means to break into the scene when they otherwise couldn't (will not mention names).
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Let's all get castrated too while we're at it.
There are biological differences between sexes. There always will be.
That being said of course it is good to treat everybody with respect and strive for an egalitarian society.
But men and women will never be exactly the same, and as a result they won't ever be treated exactly the same either.
There's also nothing wrong with that. Protoss, Terran, and Zerg aren't exactly the same, but they're still all awesome.
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Let's create an institution that deals with e-sports related gender discrimination. Put people in there that cry the most about inequality and pay them a salary.
Also we need to introduce a quota that at least 30% of participants in a tournament have to be female.
Does that turn you on (in a completely non-sexist way) Malyce?
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On July 15 2011 18:25 underscore wrote:
Let's create an institution that deals with e-sports related gender discrimination. Put people in there that cry the most about inequality and pay them a salary.
Also we need to introduce a quota that at least 30% of participants in a tournament have to be female.
Does that turn you on (in a completely non-sexist way) Malyce?
Nope sorry mate, I don't get turned on that easily 
As I said in my OP (I should do statistic on how many people who come and rant in the blog actually read the whole OP) I don't have the pretention to change the entire SC2 scene. If you don't feel concerned by this article, perhaps it's just a bit too new-age for you. And that's fine, move on. I score a free win for every soul that says "well alright, I'll try to change that one specific point".
A quota is a terrible idea. Players should participate based on skill, not on their sex. That sort of quota is discriminatory.
For the other posters:
I actually no very well what an IQ test is. I have a pretty high IQ. Does that mean I'm smart? Well... no. It means I'm good at identifying shapes within other shapes, and whatever other silly exercices I had to do during my last IQ test. Intelligence is too complicated and controversial to be measured.
Also I recognise biological differences between men and women. These differences however, apart from physical characteristics, are EXTREMELY controversial in sociological research. So I'd rather be safe and say all major behavioral/mental/psychological etc. differences (including "intelligence") between men and women are culturally induced and mainly the result of sociolisation.
I think SlayerS way of selling Eve was petty. The "hey look we gotta girl trololol, let's have her sit on our GSTL bench while we rack up fans" is an absolutely aweful attitude. And now, unfortunately, if she screws up and proves to be bad, that's a big hit for women in ESports. It sucks that she has to be the martyr, I wouldn't trade places with her for anything, but because of the structure of the ESports fanbase, now she's become iconic. Sort of like HuK in GSL, except that HuK has proven to be awesome.
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You're blurring the line between unfair stereotyping and recognizing the difference between two different things. It doesn't help that they're both referred to as "discrimination," with all of the negative connotations of the word.
For example: "She's pregnant." Doesn't sound as weird as "He's pregnant." Why? Not because I'm sexist, but because girls can get pregnant and guys can't. I know this doesn't have a direct bearing on the girl gamer, but this illustrates that flipping it around and seeing that it doesn't make sense doesn't prove that a statement or opinion is sexist.
No, real sexism is where underqualified guys get hired instead of qualified girls. Where underqualified guys get promoted over qualified girls. Even when any significant value over 50% of the time, guys are chosen over equally qualified girls. But then again, sometimes not so much: consider that in Korea, girls are guaranteed 1 day off a month, the reasoning being that they'll have PMS once a month. That's 5% of working days, and it doesn't let the company pay them 5% less. But who pushed for those laws? Yeah, girls.
It's all bullshit. Just give yourself a check once in a while to be sure, and don't consciously discriminate, and you're fine.
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On July 15 2011 19:29 BottleAbuser wrote:
For example: "She's pregnant." Doesn't sound as weird as "He's pregnant." Why? Not because I'm sexist, but because girls can get pregnant and guys can't. I know this doesn't have a direct bearing on the girl gamer, but this illustrates that flipping it around and seeing that it doesn't make sense doesn't prove that a statement or opinion is sexist.
I think I've said a million times, what you're stating is a biological difference. It's wrong to justify social differences (as I put in the OP) by stating biological differences.
Apart from that, sure there's discrimination both ways. I have mandatory military service, that's a huge discrimination against guys (against girls as well who are seen as unfit to serve, but nvm).
The thing is, the OP doesn't go over every single case of societal discrimination. It talks about discrimination within the online gaming community.
If you feel fine with the way you behave that's good for you. A lot of people are uncapable of introspection when it's pushed on by an outsider. I'm not expected you are anyone here to be a saint.
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I'm saying that recognizing an objective difference is not unfair discrimination. As you appear to agree with. So, what's different when we say "girls usually don't do well, let's see how this one does"? You'd have to be delusional to deny that girls give objectively, statistically, and historically poorer performances in competitive computer games.
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On July 15 2011 19:44 BottleAbuser wrote:
I'm saying that recognizing an objective difference is not unfair discrimination. As you appear to agree with. So, what's different when we say "girls usually don't do well, let's see how this one does"? You'd have to be delusional to deny that girls give objectively, statistically, and historically poorer performances in competitive computer games.
They do. And I agree that girls don't do well. And I'm rooting for SlayerS_Eve.
It's unfair though to say "this person is representing the girl gaming community". First of all because said community is practically non-existent in professional gaming, and secondly because (although it happens and there isn't much we can do about it) in an ideal world, it would be more fair to judge her on her skill than on her sex.
However if you disagree with this one point and agree with all the rest, you're already more progressive than most of the people who posted on this blog.
So hearts to you sir! <3 <3
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No, no... if she's the single girl in pro starcraft 2, she's representing girls in pro starcraft 2. Just as every Korean starcraft 2 pro is representing Korea in pro starcraft 2, and to a lesser extent guys in pro starcraft 2 (because it's diluted by other male players). I think you're finding sexist trends in things that aren't really sexist, and the reason I have a problem with that is that it dilutes the meaning of the word and idea. Sexism is unacceptable, but when you start calling innocuous and innocent things sexism, no one cares about sexism any more.
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Thank you for providing material for my first megapost of the day. This builds directly off of Riku's blog from yesterday. Let's see where this goes...
For one thing, your background in human rights organizations means that you have been pre-exposed to biases surrounding gender inequality, which means that you can automatically be placed on one side of the debate, which is this:
Gender inequality exists and we can do something about it.
We live in the time of Post-Feminism (or Fourth Wave Feminism as those lingering in the movement would have us believe), and women in Western society have been liberated and are free to pursue any vocation that they choose without any legal barriers preventing them from doing so. Let's start with the discussion firmly centered on the West too, because let's face it women's rights elsewhere in the world are non-existent.
So here in the West despite the legal freedoms gender inequalities are present in everyday life. Women are treated differently by males, who dominate society. I say males dominate society because they are over-represented in positions of political power and authority. The business and industrial spheres of society are thoroughly male-dominated, and although there are many prominent female figures in politics the field still has a male majority. Clearly though, most progressive nations throughout the world do not seem opposed to having female leaders. Even nations with horrible women's rights records have had female prime ministers (India/Pakistan).
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Margaret_Thatcher.png/245px-Margaret_Thatcher.png) ![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Indiragandhi.jpg/200px-Indiragandhi.jpg) Some of the most prominent female politicians of the past half-century.
So, focusing again on Western society, the problem of female inequality does not seem to be in how the institution treats women but in how regular people treat women. Both men and women treat women differently than men, and obviously the equality ideal is to have men and women all treated the same without a second thought. But if one were to think about the situation, they know that to make a sweeping cultural change like making men and women treat each other with 100% equality, is impossible.
Through all of human history, men and women have been treated differently.
How can that change now?
It can't. Men and women are simply different. Men and women have different emotional intelligence in different regions of the emotional spectrum. Men and women have different kinesthetic and spatial abilities. Men and women have different physical abilities, and different intellectual abilities. (Myers, David (2010). Psychology. Myers in Modules, 9th Edition.)+ Show Spoiler [For Example] +More women excel at mathematics, but more men are good at mathematics.
Women are raised to behave a certain way, and men are raised to behave a certain way. Unless parents raise their children differently than they were taught to raise their children, then nothing will change. Only subtle changes will occur over time as societal attitudes shift. The differences will still be there - they're just be different differences.
Women nowadays seek attention and gratification, and weaker men freely give it to them. More savvy men at least understand what they're getting out of the exchange. Sex and attention, as always, are the primary commodities men and women use as they interact (Money and property being the forms in which the attention is manifested). As long as most people are OK with this process occurring, you can't really make a difference.
Say you have, for example, a girl who knows that she is somewhat of a slut and likes the attention she gets from being that way. Men around her shower her with attention and get sex in exchange. Neither party really cares about what this makes the other person - they're all getting what they want. If everyone is getting what they want then who among them is going to say there is a problem and it has to be changed?
The goal of the women's rights movement should not be to change society with regards to male-female interactions. How women are treated in E-Sports or on the Internet are small-time problems. Real women's issues lie in legal and institutional barriers to women, which bar women from high-paying jobs, quality education, and positions of authority and ownership. Many of these barriers have been cleared in the West, and now the focus should be on the rest of the world. Clearing these barriers will prevent such problems as the gross shift in birthrates in Asia. Because men are more valued by parents, the birthrate ratio of boys to girls is around 150:100 in most Asian cities. In one Korean city it's as much as 200:100. That is a real problem.
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Birth rate is being manipulated in Korea? That's news to me. I'm gonna have to call bullshit on this: if we have a >75% male population (as the word "most" combined with >99% male would imply), we must have a hell of a lot more transsexuals than I'm aware of.
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On July 16 2011 01:09 BottleAbuser wrote:
Birth rate is being manipulated in Korea? That's news to me. I'm gonna have to call bullshit on this.
Check it out, bro.
Douglas says she was surprised that one of the countries that backed the resolution was South Korea, a country with a strong preference for sons. But maybe it's not so surprising, given that the South Korean government, recognizing that there's a severe gender imbalance in the country because of sex selective abortions, has been attempting to change public opinion with a "Love Your Daughter" campaign. Meanwhile, South Korean men have been traveling to other countries, primarily Vietnam, to find a wife.
Here too, good luck finding a wife.
With the advent of ultrasounds that enable sex-selection, the sex ratio at birth in some cities in South Korea climbed to 125 by 1992 and is over 130 in several Chinese provinces from Henan in the north to Hainan in the south.
Here's a Korean article on the matter. That guy looks nervous!
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OP is looking too deep into something and blowing it out of proportion. Men treat men differently than they treat women. Women treat women differently than they treat men. Yes, people should have equal rights, so that men and women both have the same opportunities and protections. However, men will always treat women differently because they are well... different physically and mentally. Girls and guys behave differently and have different ways of viewing certain things... To expect equal treatment for women is just ridiculous... (when I say treatment i don't mean like equal rights or opportunities). I am not going to act the same way around girls as I do guys simply because it's not practical to either side. I'm going to treat my dog like a dog and my cat like a cat (exaggerated differences but you get the point. Differences between guys and girls are not as drastic but still there). My dog and cat both can do what they want and have the same rights inside my own home. However, the way I act and what I do with both of them is a little bit different since they behave/like different things.
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Nice effort op but this is far off in the tl community. I have studied gender studies and i never start arguing about sexism in our society on the internet because people won't understand it. They simply can not.
Like i can not understand a very difficult math problem without month or years of research and maybe then i won't get it. Most people even don't really get the difference between gender and sex.
And the most recent discussions are about how "clear" the biological part really is. We live in a sexist and patrichial society and its freeking annoying but dealing on a sc2 forum with it? Way way too useless in my opinion.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://image.chosun.com/sitedata/image/201106/13/2011061300200_0.jpg)
