|
Greetings fellow travellers.
Sorry but this isn't going to be a fun post as I would like it to be. It's going to come off perhaps as a bit of rant, perhaps I'll be disliked for it, but I'll just have to live with it.
On my background: I'm a male. I'm a poli-sci graduate, and I've worked for various human rights and other organizations on gender-related issues. That's about all you need to know.
I don't think it'll come as a surprise to anyone if I say we live in a sexist society. Perhaps some of the most eloquent of you will say that our societal structure is patriarchal (well done!). Yet somehow, when we look at ourselves, we don't feel touched by this phenomenon. "Oh I get along with the ladies, they like me, I like them, all's guuud, I ain't no sexist".
Yup, we're in a bit of a bind. Somehow the society is sexist but none of the people in it are. How is this possible? Well it isn't. Sorry guys. It's become embedded in our culture. Sorry ladies as well, because many of you contribute to your own demise. There is absolutely no grounds to start a blame game. But we can genuinely do something about it. And since many of us disregarded our physical bodies and sacrifice our souls on the altar of e-sports, might as well give it a shot on the very ungrateful universe that is the internet.
So how are girls treated on the internet, more particularly in the Starcraft community. Let's start with the SlayerS_Eve joining SlayerS thread. First page.
There are 20 posts per page. 2 were banned, one is the OP. 17 posts left.
Of the 17, more than half mention she's a girl. Here are some of the comments we get:
"I'm glad female gamers are making into Esports as well =D im excited to see how well she does"
"shes no tossgirl though...but shes still extremely cute"
"That's nice, it would be fun if we could have a bit more diversity ... anyone know how good she is?"
Here are three pretty positive posts (it gets ohsomuch worse after the first page...). And yet I can't help but feel something's strange. Let's turn it the other way.
"I'm glad more male gamers are making it into Esports as well=D im excited to see how well he does"
"he's no nada though... but hes still extremely cute"
"that's nice, it would be fun if we could have a bit more diversity ... anyone know how good he is?"
Doesn't feel right does it? So the first post is underlining that there are less female players in ESports. True. But I can't help but feel that more is expected of her because she's a lady. "excited to see how well she does", would you be as excited as if it were an unknown male amateur? Probably not.
Reaction one: Women in ESports seem to be part of some sort of experiment to see if women can really play video games.
Second post, not much to say.
Reaction two: Women in ESports are judged on their looks a lot more than men are.
And the third quote pretty much leads to a reaction similar to the first.
NOTE: people are gonna say "yeah but if it were a dude people what also question her skillz, get out! trolololol". To that I anwser, the quote doesn't say "I'm glad more amateur gamers are making it into ESports".
OK so we've established that women and men are treated differently with empirical evidence (my sociology professors would be proud). Now let's move back to theoretical.
I'm not gonna gather evidence for all my claims, it's out there, and I don't think it's necessary. So here we go. How are gentlemen and ladies treated differently in ESports?
-> Women have an additional stress factor to deal with, since there are so few they somehow "represent the female community", and that's just wrong. They represent themselves and their skill level.
-> Women have to take additional personal crap on their looks.
-> Women take additional crap on their intelligence, simply due to the fact that they are women
-> Women can't talk about gender issues without being called "attention whores" (note the word "whore" rather than troll)
-> Women have to bear with chivalry. Doesn't sound too bad? Yet it's a recognition of weakness and lesser ability to do certain things.
-> Women have to bear with emo. More than dudes. Getting ridiculously over-sentimental messages, dealing with crushes, etc.
So who's up for vasectomy?
Gender discrimination is all around us. Hell, I've done it as well, it's culturally accepted. Every time you hold a door for a lady. Every time you're nice to her just because she's a girl. Every time you make a sexist joke you wouldn't say in front of a lady. Every time you make a post on how cute a female gamer is. Every time you root for a girl just because she's a girl. These are all banal things, but they show that our society is biased.
So what to do about it?
Not much. But if everyone can make just a tiny effort to do the following effort on themselves, it'd be a great start:
- Don't get emotionally over-attached. There's a time and place for things, and a private messaging box usually isn't that great for dating.
- Try to not make sexual comments on women in ESports. Basically stuff you wouldn't say to your girlfriend.
- Try to not make comments on X female gamer representing women in ESports. She's not. She's representing herself and her team. They don't need more stress than they already have.
- Try not to be chevalresque. To me a white knight is a dude who will give a lady better treatment because she's a lady. This leads me to my next point.
- Try to tell the difference between a white knight and a person who just doesn't want women to be alienated from ESports. Condemning sexism isn't being a white knight. Holding doors is.
- Try not to prejudice women on their gaming knowledge. They are human and can be talked to as equals.
- Try to avoid sexist language, words like "rape", "whore", etc. are just plain dumb and insensitive, they do no good to ESports in general.
- To tournament planners, try not to reinforce these clichés, in the sense trying to get more viewers by putting a pretty face on your stream. You might get positive feedback, but it does no good to women in ESports.
This is hard shit to do. Even for me. But I'm not asking nor expecting radical change. For every person who follows at least a little piece of this advice, it's a win for integrating women into our community.
Hopefully at least one person will be self-conscious enough to do the introspective exercise. I know I will.
Thanks for reading, my next blog post will be more entertaining, I promise!
  
|
|
|
Poor argument. Her being a female progamer is a legitimate part of her personality and marketability. We shouldn't just ignore it which is what it seems like you're trying to argue.
|
Thanks for this.  I've been trying to improve on many of these points myself, and it's extremely hard because this behavior is so ingrained into and considered "acceptable" in our society.
On another note, people should check the following out as well:
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/
Cheers!
|
On July 15 2011 05:21 Complete wrote:
Poor argument. Her being a female progamer is a legitimate part of her personality and marketability. We shouldn't just ignore it which is what it seems like you're trying to argue.
Her personnality? Do you know her?
Her marketability? Are you trying to sell her?
I'm saying not that we should ignore it, but that it shouldn't influence our judgement on her skill/performance. I know that ain't happening, but we can make an effort to make ESports more female-friendly.
|
On July 15 2011 05:14 Malyce wrote:
"he's no nada though... but hes still extremely cute"
?? I bet you this happens a lot.
|
On July 15 2011 05:27 Validity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 05:14 Malyce wrote:
"he's no nada though... but hes still extremely cute"
?? I bet you this happens a lot.
A valid point, validity.
But the tone isn't the same. The tone on Nada's body isn't the same as it is on Lindsey's Fanclub page.
Can't stop a man from having hormones, but you can get him not to spread them all over the place. Hopefully. In a perfect world.
|
On July 15 2011 05:23 Malyce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 05:21 Complete wrote:
Poor argument. Her being a female progamer is a legitimate part of her personality and marketability. We shouldn't just ignore it which is what it seems like you're trying to argue. Her personnality? Do you know her? Her marketability? Are you trying to sell her? I'm saying not that we should ignore it, but that it shouldn't influence our judgement on her skill/performance. I know that ain't happening, but we can make an effort to make ESports more female-friendly.
No I don't know her nor am I attempting to sell her - Would you like to share the point of those questions now other than trying to sensationalize your argument?
|
Malyce, I agree with you on most parts.
But for myself, I can only say, I can open doors myself, I'm not a weak victim who needs to be rescued.
Too me, a polite man open doors to other men aswell. Not just to girls. That would be sexism, either thinking I can't do it, or that he is trying to get some by being more polite to me than to others.
But that is probably a Swedish thing, as many foreigners have said that Sweden is the only country "where men hold doors for other men" :D
In every other thing I agree, and a womans skill should not be measured on her looks. If we did that the other way around, there wouldn't really be that many pro gamers at all imho 
As for me, looking at male pro gamers I don't really care what they look like, if they have acne, if they are fat or skinny. Maybe because I am in a relationship and already have a sexlife, I don't fantasize about every man I lay eyes on.
My fav player is MC, based on the fact that he playes Protoss, and he is very good at it. Might be better ones that I haven't discovered yet, so time will tell
Also I don't think of girl gamers as girl gamers, but as gamers. Gender does not matter.
Thank you for writing an interesting post
|
On July 15 2011 05:31 Complete wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 05:23 Malyce wrote:On July 15 2011 05:21 Complete wrote:
Poor argument. Her being a female progamer is a legitimate part of her personality and marketability. We shouldn't just ignore it which is what it seems like you're trying to argue. Her personnality? Do you know her? Her marketability? Are you trying to sell her? I'm saying not that we should ignore it, but that it shouldn't influence our judgement on her skill/performance. I know that ain't happening, but we can make an effort to make ESports more female-friendly. No I don't know her nor am I attempting to sell her - Would you like to share the point of those questions now other than trying to sensationalize your argument?
Sure!
My point is that her being a women doesn't say anything on her personnality, or on how she will play. Being a progamer is a legitimate part of her personnality because it's a personal accomplishment. Being a woman isn't.
I don't give a rat's if she has market value. The money being made off of her isn't going into my pocket, and marketing her as a female is putting useless pressure on her. Chances are she won't perform as well as she could. Chances are she's gonna take more crap. Chances are it's gonna be bad for ESports.
Are you Complete? 
EDIT for saris, indeed Suedes are strange in a good way though. I'm fine with holding doors if you do it for other men too and it's a normal thing. Not if you go out of your way to do it because it's for a woman.
|
Allright then we are at the same page here. Nice to see men who can think with their brains
Also that goes the other way around too, some girls should use their brains a bit more
|
3/5 for a good effort but a message I completely disagree with.
One point you made was posts like this: "I'm glad female gamers are making into Esports as well =D im excited to see how well she does"
Well what if it was:
"I'm glad American/White/Canadian/European/Foreign/Black/Arabic/etc gamers are making into Esports as well =D im excited to see how well they do"
I certainly would have no problem with that. The simple fact is, they are another minority group in the scene. And by being a minority, it's fair to expect people to see if you represent your minority group well.
Yes women are expected to look good. But you are aware that male pros also wear makeup, right? If they don't, that's just unprofessional on their part.
Your comments on chivalry honestly misrepresent the truth. I would certainly hold the door for a woman, not because I don't think they could do it themselves, but as a gesture of kindness.
There is discriminatory language for every minority group. It's something that you just have to learn to cope with. There's absolutely no reason to make a big deal out of it. Besides, if they can open doors on their own, why can't they deal with sexism?
As an afterthought, I don't exactly appreciate the pretentious tone of this piece.
|
I'm ok with this argument. And I agree with most of it. However once again... when you start telling me that because my female co-worker can't carry something because it's too heavy for her and I pick it up and do it for her its sexism, go away. lol You must have read that recent article about lesser sexism and thought it was awesome. Feminists have started to hurt themselves with those types of things.
Also, female athletes in any sport get a lot of attention if they can do it as well as a guy. (most can't due to genetics omg more sexism? no.. science.) It's going to happen regardless of what people think is good and/or bad. You think the Korean's weren't just as impressed with TossGirl competing? or just sitting there looking pretty? Also, I think its safe to assume SlayerS_Eve is there for marketing reasons. Brilliant move on Jessica's part lol Makes them $
|
I often comment on how cute male progamers are. Does that mean that I'm in the clear to comment on female progamers? Am I in the wrong if I comment on male progamers and not female progamers? =O
|
On July 15 2011 05:52 Lightwip wrote:
3/5 for a good effort but a message I completely disagree with.
One point you made was posts like this: "I'm glad female gamers are making into Esports as well =D im excited to see how well she does"
Well what if it was:
"I'm glad American/White/Canadian/European/Foreign/Black/Arabic/etc gamers are making into Esports as well =D im excited to see how well they do"
I certainly would have no problem with that. The simple fact is, they are another minority group in the scene. And by being a minority, it's fair to expect people to see if you represent your minority group well.
Yes women are expected to look good. But you are aware that male pros also wear makeup, right? If they don't, that's just unprofessional on their part.
Your comments on chivalry honestly misrepresent the truth. I would certainly hold the door for a woman, not because I don't think they could do it themselves, but as a gesture of kindness.
There is discriminatory language for every minority group. It's something that you just have to learn to cope with. There's absolutely no reason to make a big deal out of it. Besides, if they can open doors on their own, why can't they deal with sexism?
As an afterthought, I don't exactly appreciate the pretentious tone of this piece.
Sure it happens for minorities. But the thing is, people don't care as much if a player is American/White/Canadian/European/Foreign/Black/Arabic. Foreign perhaps, poor HuK... But when it's a woman people jump on it. My point is, these players aren't representing minority groups. The community makes them represent minority groups, adding on to the stigma.
Sure pros wear makeup. Pros want to look good. Good for them. In many cases it's an epic fail. This doesn't take away from the point that it matters less to the community, how good a male pro looks.
Sure chivalry is kind. That's what makes it chivalry. Would you pull my chair out at the dinner table out of kindness? Probably not. Although the message of weakness behind it has for the most part disappeared (not entirely) from popular culture, it's still at the root of the practice. Also your kindness just proves another one of my points, that you act with more kindness towards women.
Sure women can deal with sexism. I can deal with racism. I just don't want to have to.
I'd suggest you don't like the pretentious tone because you disagree with the content, but that would be pretentious
Edit for Omni, if you would do the same for a male worker with less physical strength, then I'm fine with it.
As for the bit on make-up, it depends on the tone. I'm not as much bothered by "she's good looking" than I am by "I'd shag that".
|
If there was an article about a chinese person joining a korean team, i think half of the posts would say "Whoa, awesome, chinese". Does that mean people are xenophobic? No.
I want to go over your list
- Don't get emotionally over-attached. There's a time and place for things, and a private messaging box usually isn't that great for dating.
Agree 100%, don't be an idiot
- Try to not make comments on how cute female gamers are. Sure I'd fly to Korea and live in a dumpster if SlayerS_Eve asked me out. Should I post it on a forum? Hell no (to whoever says I just did I say go eat a tree).
Disagree, she was recruited for her "skills and looks". People post threads like "nada's body". Wholeheartedly disagree. She is pretty cute btw.
- Try to not make comments on X female gamer representing women in ESports. She's not. She's representing herself and her team. They don't need more stress than they already have. It's because females don't play esports as much as males competitively. Huk went to korea and he not only represents himself, but he represents the idea that a foreigner can compete with the koreans. She represents herself and the ability for female gamers to compete.
- Try not to be chevalresque. To me a white knight is a dude who will give a lady better treatment because she's a lady. This leads me to my next point. - Try to tell the difference between a white knight and a person who just doesn't want women to be alienated from ESports. Condemning sexism isn't being a white knight. Holding doors is.
Not sure what your point is here. There's nothing wrong with treating people better than yourself on a consistant basis. The bad part is called chauvanism. Being courteous to females is a good thing, they really appreciate it. I also hold the door open for men and for children. I tend to hold it open for females more often, but there's nothing wrong with that.
- Try not to prejudice women on their gaming knowledge. They are human and can be talked to as equals. Ok, yes this is sexism. I agree. Being condescending because of someone's sex is sexist. 100% agree. My wife plays video games, and I talk to her like any other person.
- Try to avoid sexist language, words like "rape", "whore", etc. are just plain dumb and insensitive, they do no good to ESports in general.
1000% agree. Something like 1 in 3 girls have been sexually abused. Although they are just words, you could accidentally bring up undesired emotions from someone in that situation.
- To tournament planners, try not to reinforce these clichés, in the sense trying to get more viewers by putting a pretty face on your stream. You might get positive feedback, but it does no good to women in ESports. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Streams are meant to entertain. Men enjoy seeing a female face mostly because esports is a giant sausage fest. There's nothing wrong with hiring male or female actors for entertainment purposes.
In general, some people have a slighty warped view of sexism. Instead of trying to ignore the differences, I say embrace them. Certain things, like treating someone worse because of something that is beyond their control is bad, however treating someone more favorable is never a bad thing. Girls these days are also finding that line between being treated similarly and treated differently. My wife will hold the door open for me sometimes.
The ultimate goal of any relationship should be trying to please the other person without any expectation in return. When I hold the door open for a female, it's because I believe it's a nice thing to do. I don't hold any expectations against the female and don't consider her inferior or superior to myself.
The whole thing is a mindset. Motivation is the most important thing. If the motivations are pure, then the actions should not be criticized. If the intentions are selfish (such as destiny using the word rape for entertainment purposes), then it is wrong and should be criticized.
|
On July 15 2011 05:21 Complete wrote:
Poor argument. Her being a female progamer is a legitimate part of her personality and marketability. We shouldn't just ignore it which is what it seems like you're trying to argue.
The OP is indeed a poor argument. I would expand upon your point saying that if the roles were reversed, women would indeed do that.
|
Thanks for the writeup, OP! I agree with a lot of it. I don't think it's going to put a dent in the gender arguments of TL, but it's a nice, logical way to look at it.
I know it's been touched on, but what about the business aspects of e-sports that utilize the common tactic of sex appeal. Let's face it, did tossgirl really get all those photo shoots because she was one of the best female BW players? Maybe at the start, but ultimately her looks became a tool to sell pro gaming. How do we reconcile societal biases when it's used as such a strong marketing agent? I personally don't think it will without some sort of paradigm shift, but what do you think?
|
I actually don't like the door-holding as an example of annoying chivalry. I think that most people tend to hold the door open for people behind them, both men and women.
What does annoy me is how if a woman is carrying a moderately heavy object (or even anything, really), a man is expected to take it for her. This is something that does directly imply inferiority no matter how you spin it. If it's something like she's carrying multiple things, then I'll ask if she wants me to take one or two of them (just like I would with anyone). If she asks or is visibly struggling, I'll take it off her hands. But immediately offering to carry it for her when she has no indication of needing your help? That's condescending as hell.
I've been sick of chivalry as a concept for a while. Though maybe it's partially because I'm not interested in women as sexual partners and thus don't feel a need to impress them with such things. Though, if I were, then I would definitely rather be with a woman who likes a guy who acknowledges that she is an independent and capable person than a woman who likes a guy who treats her like a delicate little damsel.
|
I think OP is well intentioned but naive.
I agree that one way to test for gender equality is to flip it around and see if it makes sense. Would it make sense if a female member of TL said that she thought Boxer was really cute? Yes. I wouldn't consider that a sexist or derrogatory comment. It wouldn't imply any lack of Boxer's talent, or that the commentor was only treating him as an object.
On the other hand would it seem natural if a woman were to make a huge post on TL calling out all other females as sexists who are ignorant of their own inherant sexism? Would it seem natural for her to spout on about how hard it is for men to have to deal with a culture which judges them by their physical stature, and how unfair marital custody laws are? To me this would seem strange because men are perfectly capable of standing up for themselves. So are women.
Is it derrogatory to suggest that Huk is representing the foreign starcraft scene, even though he has certainly never asked to? Is it also derrogatory to say that this girl is representing female gamers in SC2? Why are these 2 things different?
Your post seems to be like that of a monk whipping himself because he knows he is a sinner, but could never be otherwise. You need to be confortable being a man, and don't hate yourself for it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
