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On July 15 2011 06:42 eshlow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 06:06 matjlav wrote:
I actually don't like the door-holding as an example of annoying chivalry. I think that most people tend to hold the door open for people behind them, both men and women.
What does annoy me is how if a woman is carrying a moderately heavy object (or even anything, really), a man is expected to take it for her. This is something that does directly imply inferiority no matter how you spin it. If it's something like she's carrying multiple things, then I'll ask if she wants me to take one or two of them (just like I would with anyone). If she asks or is visibly struggling, I'll take it off her hands. But immediately offering to carry it for her when she has no indication of needing your help? That's condescending as hell.
I've been sick of chivalry as a concept for a while. Though maybe it's partially because I'm not interested in women as sexual partners and thus don't feel a need to impress them with such things. Though, if I were, then I would definitely rather be with a woman who likes a guy who acknowledges that she is an independent and capable person than a woman who likes a guy who treats her like a delicate little damsel. Men are biologically stronger than women. THAT is a fact of life. How is it condescending to offer to carry something that is heavy? People say all this stuff about chivalry and crap. What about just being a generally helpful person to everyone? I would offer help to anyone that had to move heavy stuff. I would offer it MORE to women than men because women are generally weaker than men.
It is a fact that men in general are stronger than women in general. But that doesn't mean that a woman automatically needs your help whenever she has to carry something heavier than a purse. As a fairly scrawny guy, I know a good number of women who are probably stronger than I am.
In situations where you would help a man or a woman (i.e. they are visibly struggling, they ask, or they have a ton of stuff to carry that you could help with) then yes, of course you should offer to help. But if you just see a woman carrying a box and automatically think that it's your duty as a man to help her, it is indeed condescending.
On July 15 2011 06:42 eshlow wrote:
There's a difference between being a nice person and someone who is acknowledges someone as an independent and capable person. They are not mutually exclusive.
Asking "do you need help carrying something" is being considerate person. It should be offered regardless of gender, especially if the person looks like they are having difficulty.
I agree with this.
On July 15 2011 06:42 eshlow wrote:
As an overall aside I'm pretty sick of the whole gender equality issue. There ARE some fundamental differences between the physical, emotional, etc. reactions between the sexes and brushing them under the rug in favor of "equality" is pretty much stupid as all can be. Yes, there are some horrible people in this world who like to make sexist remarks, do sexist things, etc., but that doesn't mean that we should be aiming for equality for everyone is every aspect of life. That is just foolish. Treat others they way you would want to be treated. Honestly, who cares what gender, race, or whatever else they are.
When you just treat people as individuals and act appropriately, the need to stereotype goes away, regardless of what generalized qualities an entire demographic might have. That's my point.
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Modification on the OP.
The most controversial point has been commenting on the looks of women players. I specified sexual comments that you wouldn't make to your girlfriend (provided the two of you are mentally stable).
Hope this'll clear out some of the flames and draw some attention (and heartZ) to the other points!
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On July 15 2011 06:28 saris84 wrote:
Actually, I believe the reason why men wrote the bible etc is that men usually have a stronger physique, and can/could easily overpower women and scare them into obedience.
Also the fact that women carry and give birth to the baby obvoisly made men think that this is all we're good for, let them stay home with the kids.
Well. We can do both. Multitasking ftw! Raising kids, working, playing games... we can even carry home bags of food from the store, drive cars (most traffic accidents are caused by men, so ppl complaining about how women can't drive, being careful may save lives mmkay) and so on.
It is also interesting looking at the animals and comparing male/female. Some female animals kill their partner after sex, since the male is not needed anymore. What if this was true among humans today? Wouldn't it be awful? Yet it is okay to state that men are better at tactics and such in combat? How do you know, men solved that problem hundreds of years ago, by prohibiting women to be in the army, to work etc...
So if you believe that men have a stronger physique, why must you deny empirical evidence that they're smarter as well? NOBODY is, in present US society, scaring or oppressing women so that they are prevented with coming up with algorithms or operating systems or software. Yet, the heads of all successful tech companies are men.
Also, the fact that women carry and give birth to the baby indeed betrays the fact that they're better caretakers. Why do you think most elementary school teachers are women? They're more patient, and better at understanding and mediating fights and stuff. Why do you think that this isn't as true for high school teachers? Because it's less about taking care of little kids, and more about having a firm authority in the classroom. Elementary school teachers are a lot more like mothers than college professors, and so more of them are women.
Well, you can do both. Raising kids - yes, you are better. Working - not as good: ambitious and inventive people tend to be men, and nobody is preventing girls in high school from founding companies like Steve Jobs did. Most traffic accidents are caused by men because most people on the road (to work, for example) are men. Try to actually look for the reason behind a fact before just spewing it out. Men tend to drive more because they have to go to work, and men tend to drive their families around. If 60% of drivers are men, then it's only reasonable that most accidents are caused by men.
It is also interesting looking at the animals and comparing male/female. Some female animals kill their partner after sex, since the male is not needed anymore. What if this was true among humans today? Wouldn't it be awful? Yet it is okay to state that men are better at tactics and such in combat? How do you know, men solved that problem hundreds of years ago, by prohibiting women to be in the army, to work etc...
Well, thanks for proving my point. In the Latrodectus species and the Panthera Leo species, the female is indeed the better hunter, the stronger and more powerful gender. In Homo Sapiens, men are. The reason women don't kill men after sex is because men ARE needed after sex...needed to invent, to discover, to lead, and to proclaim. It's not okay to state that men are better at tactics? Why do you think, thousands of years ago, that women were "prohibited to be in the army, to work etc..."? It's because men were better soldiers, and better fighters. Hell, look at any Olympic sport today - soccer, football, anything physically demanding. The level of competition among men is far above the level in competition in women. This is demonstrated in TossGirl's complete dominance of the female league and sound and regular thrashing in the male league. Men and women both realized thousands of years ago what you still can't figure out - women make for better medics and nurses and caretakers, and men serve as better soldiers and thinkers and leaders. It's not, as I've already said, the result of a coin-toss. It's that countries using weaker soldiers and less ambitious thinkers (women) and worse and more impatient and less understanding caretakers (men) probably didn't do to well. Can men make it on their own? Nope.
Think of it like two tools: a power screwdriver and a wire clipper or something. Women do many things better than men, and many things worse than men. You can try to put women in charge or in composition of an army. You can try to put a screw in with a clipper. It just won't work, or won't work as well as doing with people what they're meant to do - using a tool the way it's meant to be used. The reason we use power screwdrivers to screw things in isn't because we one day decided that this would be the way to do things. We use a hammer to band in a nail because that's what works. We use men to compose and lead armies because that's what tends to work.
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On July 15 2011 05:23 Malyce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 05:21 Complete wrote:
Poor argument. Her being a female progamer is a legitimate part of her personality and marketability. We shouldn't just ignore it which is what it seems like you're trying to argue. Her personnality? Do you know her? Her marketability? Are you trying to sell her? I'm saying not that we should ignore it, but that it shouldn't influence our judgement on her skill/performance. I know that ain't happening, but we can make an effort to make ESports more female-friendly.
I know I'm late to the party but the whole point of being a professional is to have marketability and a perceived personality that will earn you the most. MC or Idra are popular for their marketability and personality. Don't make it out to be a women's esports issue.
On July 15 2011 06:52 Malyce wrote:
Modification on the OP.
The most controversial point has been commenting on the looks of women players. I specified sexual comments that you wouldn't make to your girlfriend (provided the two of you are mentally stable).
Hope this'll clear out some of the flames and draw some attention (and heartZ) to the other points!
I can't take that seriously since most of my girlfriends//partners are pretty damn far from vanilla. I'm more reserved and polite when discussing people I don't know rather than talking to my girlfriend privately.
That isn't to say rape and whore aren't completely unacceptable terms, though I do skew my opinion when it is self described "I just got raped by a siege tank and four of his marauder buddies". That's kinda funny. "I'm going to rape you with a siege tank and four of his marauder buddies".. is not funny at all.
Idk, that's me and my opinion. What I'd really like is for this to be unneeded and for women to have a higher percentage of representation in esports. Unfortunately for me I find it unremarkable that SlayerS recruited a female player and that all of this is a real non issue that is doing a disservice with over attention.
But like I said, that's just me.
On July 15 2011 07:04 djbhINDI wrote:
That guy is either trolling, a kid or an idiot. Or all three. There is no way he should be given so many words. I know he won't change his mind because of them. Though I suppose I do appreciate the effort.
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mens looks get commented on just as much as womens look in the sc scene. every time theres a new code a player, first page theres a comment about how cute he is. noone ever makes a fuss about it.
and i disagree that theres sexism against women in our community either apart from the usual trolling someone like anna has been well recieved for her work.
everyone who gets a free ride gets criticized. just because not many men get it, due to the multitudes of men who work hard to be the best doesnt mean a man getting a free shot at a team for his looks (its happened in other industries) wouldnt get shit on.
every person getting a free ride gets shit, nothing to do with sexism and i think its really sexist for people to white knight in defence of people who do get free rides ; /
i personally havent commented on her yet, because i dont know about the korean scene, maybe shes really good. but the fact that 'noone' has heard of her isnt promising.
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But the fact that BoxeRs team, the same team that recruited Alicia when everyone thought he was a cheesenoob, shows the team has skill at finding a diamond in the rough. Or a grand master.
I'm willing to suspend disbelief for a month.
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On July 15 2011 07:05 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 06:52 Malyce wrote:
Modification on the OP.
The most controversial point has been commenting on the looks of women players. I specified sexual comments that you wouldn't make to your girlfriend (provided the two of you are mentally stable).
Hope this'll clear out some of the flames and draw some attention (and heartZ) to the other points! I can't take that seriously since most of my girlfriends//partners are pretty damn far from vanilla. I'm more reserved and polite when discussing people I don't know rather than talking to my girlfriend privately.
I took it to mean comments that you wouldn't feel comfortable making about another girl to your girlfriend. As in most girls would be okay with you saying another girl's pretty, but not with you relating sexually explicit things you'd like to do with said other girl.
But then again, maybe some girls like their boyfriends doing the latter...I would say that's not the norm though.
Oh, and here are some hearts: ♥♥♥ Your other points are pretty good. White knighting gets annoying.
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i am just so completely speechless at djbhINDI's post i can't even think of where to begin i'm just going to go kill myself right now this world isn't worth living in with people like him in it bye
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On July 15 2011 07:05 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 05:23 Malyce wrote:On July 15 2011 05:21 Complete wrote:
Poor argument. Her being a female progamer is a legitimate part of her personality and marketability. We shouldn't just ignore it which is what it seems like you're trying to argue. Her personnality? Do you know her? Her marketability? Are you trying to sell her? I'm saying not that we should ignore it, but that it shouldn't influence our judgement on her skill/performance. I know that ain't happening, but we can make an effort to make ESports more female-friendly. I know I'm late to the party but the whole point of being a professional is to have marketability and a perceived personality that will earn you the most. MC or Idra are popular for their marketability and personality. Don't make it out to be a women's esports issue. Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 06:52 Malyce wrote:
Modification on the OP.
The most controversial point has been commenting on the looks of women players. I specified sexual comments that you wouldn't make to your girlfriend (provided the two of you are mentally stable).
Hope this'll clear out some of the flames and draw some attention (and heartZ) to the other points! I can't take that seriously since most of my girlfriends//partners are pretty damn far from vanilla. I'm more reserved and polite when discussing people I don't know rather than talking to my girlfriend privately. That isn't to say rape and whore aren't completely unacceptable terms, though I do skew my opinion when it is self described "I just got raped by a siege tank and four of his marauder buddies". That's kinda funny. "I'm going to rape you with a siege tank and four of his marauder buddies".. is not funny at all. Idk, that's me and my opinion. What I'd really like is for this to be unneeded and for women to have a higher percentage of representation in esports. Unfortunately for me I find it unremarkable that SlayerS recruited a female player and that all of this is a real non issue that is doing a disservice with over attention. But like I said, that's just me. Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 07:04 djbhINDI wrote:On July 15 2011 06:28 saris84 wrote:
Don't feed the trolls. That guy is either trolling, a kid or an idiot. Or all three. There is no way he should be given so many words. I know he won't change his mind because of them. Though I suppose I do appreciate the effort.
Really? I used empirical examples, analogy, and logic to support my example. I offered a rebuttal to every "argument"(in quotes because they were that bad) others threw at me.
Trolls generally say pretty stupid stuff, and don't back up what they've said. Can you contradict a single thing I've said here? Until then, I'm not a troll (as my arguments are, as not disprovable, logical) not a kid(or maybe a smart kid, because even your oh-so-wise being can't disprove me) and not an idiot (see not a troll). In fact, the only person who has failed to argue substantively, made ridiculous and unproven allegations, attacked their opponent instead of their opponent's argument, and insisted that others are illogical is you. Problem?
EDIT: Also, look at your pathetic words:
There is no way he should be given so many words.
Read: I don't like your opinion, so you shouldn't be able to voice it. Fail.
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On July 15 2011 07:18 nozh wrote:
i am just so completely speechless at djbhINDI's post i can't even think of where to begin i'm just going to go kill myself right now this world isn't worth living in with people like him in it bye
You don't know where to begin, or you can't? What part of my post is wrong? Show me where I've demonstrated that I make this world not living in. This doesn't include disrobing truths you're not prepared to handle.
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I like female programers, but don't like female "gamers" that get there based on something besides skill. If you are a woman and can play with the boys, good for you. If you are nowhere near the level you are competing in and are there because you're hot or girly or feminine or "girlz rock clan!!!" then I'll look down on you. Kinda the same if the company VP got to be VP because she's hot, not because she's good at her job.
Would obviously like to see much more female gamers though. Gender roles and what others find attractive in different sexes makes this tougher/less rewarding for women, though.
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I find that chivalry is just a part of our culture. If you see a man and a woman walking down the street and the woman is carrying a heavy object while the man is carrying nothing, people will judge the man as weak or thoughtless. It's just the way things are. The guys aren't judging the girl by being chivalrous, but preventing themselves from being judged - by the girl or by others.
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"Women have to bear with chivalry."
Man wat. Forget that crap. I had a feminist english professor who tried to get us to buy that holding the doors for women was a bad thing.
Screw that thinking. It's terrible and it's wrong.
I open and hold the door for my wife everywhere we go, whether it's a restaurant or the car, and I always will.
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It is the fact that it is not truths, it is just your opinion, however you tell it like it would be true as 1+1...
and the fact that you listed women good at doing things that doesn't require much intelligence, and portraying men as the oh so smart thinker, that IS sexiest.
Because you don't really have to be a rocket scientist to change a diaper or put a spoon in a baby's mouth. Mentally challenged people have children. It aint that hard.
You did not mention that females can often speak more languages, no, because that requires reading, and women don't do that, they clean, cook and wipe shit all thay because that is all we're good for (in your eyes it seems).
You don't have very high thoughts about women. And more people think just like you. That is exactly why women don't get good at sports, because all the best leaders choose to teach the kids with penises.
They did an experiment in Sweden with some soccerteams. They discovered that the girls who were taught to play like boys got better, and the girls who were treated as little wussies at practise, did not become as good. They later merged two teams, one male, one female, and the girls became as good as the boys.
Also it is proven again with a femal isehocke goalie who played a lot of games with men, because she was brought up to me tough. People who have kids let their little girls cry about everything, and they teach the boys to suck it up and be a man. This is the problem. That for years, people have been making a difference in emotional issues among their children.
Also regarding your comments on how women are good medics and men are good soldiers, I think it says more about how men are less intelligent, than the other way around.
Women heal.
Men kill.
Without us, you would die. Without you, there would be no war. The problem isn't that women aren't smart. The problem is, neither are men...
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Alright I read your whole blog and while broadly speaking I agree about the whole sexism thing, I think you're being a little too overprotective of women in E-sports and making too many assumptions in general.
-> Women have an additional stress factor to deal with, since there are so few they somehow "represent the female community", and that's just wrong. They represent themselves and their skill level.
Why do you think this is a bad thing? What if girl gamer X wants to be a role model for aspiring female gamers? There's no need for you to proactively tell people not to cheer for the representatives of girl gaming when we're trying to support their endeavors.
-> Women have to take additional personal crap on their looks.
Two way street. Good looking girls benefit more from being good looking than good looking men do. In Slayers_Eve's case this is a good thing. She's being given a golden opportunity she otherwise wouldn't have gotten if she weren't cute+female.
-> Women take additional crap on their intelligence, simply due to the fact that they are women
-> Women can't talk about gender issues without being called "attention whores" (note the word "whore" rather than troll)
-> Women have to bear with chivalry. Doesn't sound too bad? Yet it's a recognition of weakness and lesser ability to do certain things.
-> Women have to bear with emo. More than dudes. Getting ridiculously over-sentimental messages, dealing with crushes, etc.
Probably true, but irrelevant to E-sports.
- Don't get emotionally over-attached. There's a time and place for things, and a private messaging box usually isn't that great for dating.
You really think people who do this are being serious? It's just harmless trolling.
- Try to not make sexual comments on women in ESports. Basically stuff you wouldn't say to your girlfriend.
You wouldn't tell your girlfriend you'd do her? jk I know what you mean but once again it's just harmless message board trolling.
- Try not to be chevalresque. To me a white knight is a dude who will give a lady better treatment because she's a lady. This leads me to my next point.
- Try to tell the difference between a white knight and a person who just doesn't want women to be alienated from ESports. Condemning sexism isn't being a white knight. Holding doors is.
Explain how this is relevant to E-sports. Can't be chivalrous and hold doors across the internets now can we?
- Try to avoid sexist language, words like "rape", "whore", etc. are just plain dumb and insensitive, they do no good to ESports in general.
Rape is inappropriately used, yes. I've yet to hear anyone use "whore" on TL (without being banned) or any SC2 cast.
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So you complain about chivalry towards woman, than you make this needlessly long blog about not treating woman differently in a community where it seems everyone gets shit talked. Every tourney thread has people shit talking guy players too, some guy players get called ugly and have their appearance complained about all the time, why aren't you posting a thread about not treating people based on superficial reasons, instead of a hypocritical blog about treating women better because they are women.
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On July 15 2011 06:52 Malyce wrote:
Modification on the OP.
The most controversial point has been commenting on the looks of women players. I specified sexual comments that you wouldn't make to your girlfriend (provided the two of you are mentally stable).
Hope this'll clear out some of the flames and draw some attention (and heartZ) to the other points!
If I were you I would change that to comments you wouldn't make to your mother or your friend's girlfriend. You must not have a very fun (or mentally unstable) relationship.
That blatantly sexist guy posting in here is just awful. Seriously we live with the ramifications of a society developed by the physically larger sex so men have the better positions and women get shoved into a caretaker role.
Sit there and act like history has been meritocratic. He should go get a real education in history instead of posting that shit.
OP, I think you made some great points and that this community doesn't realize how sexist it is is sad.
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On July 15 2011 07:34 saris84 wrote:
It is the fact that it is not truths, it is just your opinion, however you tell it like it would be true as 1+1...
and the fact that you listed women good at doing things that doesn't require much intelligence, and portraying men as the oh so smart thinker, that IS sexiest.
Because you don't really have to be a rocket scientist to change a diaper or put a spoon in a baby's mouth. Mentally challenged people have children. It aint that hard.
You did not mention that females can often speak more languages, no, because that requires reading, and women don't do that, they clean, cook and wipe shit all thay because that is all we're good for (in your eyes it seems).
You don't have very high thoughts about women. And more people think just like you. That is exactly why women don't get good at sports, because all the best leaders choose to teach the kids with penises.
They did an experiment in Sweden with some soccerteams. They discovered that the girls who were taught to play like boys got better, and the girls who were treated as little wussies at practise, did not become as good. They later merged two teams, one male, one female, and the girls became as good as the boys.
Also it is proven again with a femal isehocke goalie who played a lot of games with men, because she was brought up to me tough. People who have kids let their little girls cry about everything, and they teach the boys to suck it up and be a man. This is the problem. That for years, people have been making a difference in emotional issues among their children.
Also regarding your comments on how women are good medics and men are good soldiers, I think it says more about how men are less intelligent, than the other way around.
Women heal.
Men kill.
Without us, you would die. Without you, there would be no war. The problem isn't that women aren't smart. The problem is, neither are men...
You can post your own opinions on why women are better as you please. But to say that women are as good or better than men at a physical sport is just being plain silly. Also, the majority of the world's doctors are men, not women, the vast majority of wartime medics are men. Women speak more languages? (lol?)
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Since the dawn of time, hot women have had it easy and not-so-hot women have had it hard.
And that's how things roll.
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Also, pretending that immense physical, emotional and psychological differences between men and women only exist because of outside factors and social perception is a terrible, terrible fad.
I hope humanity grows past it soon so men can go back to being manly scowling chums like Gregory Peck and women to mesmerizing curvy bombshells like Aria Giovanni.
Some of us don't support the idea of humans as androgynous hermaphrodites :p
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EPT
