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I rarely write blog 'cos I am a lazy person, but some thing really bugs the hell out of me since the release of SC2. Its the Warp Gate from Protoss, please note that this is not a QQ or whining thread cos I've play SC:BW for too long and I've developed a sense of never QQ about balance unless its game breaker like the 150 minerals Spawning pool back in the late 90s of the last century.
Well, as I said, WG bugs the hell out of me, not because its something so gamebreaking, but the ways it affect the balance out of all races in SC2.
The reason SC:BW is so successful because of its vast quantity of new maps coming out every Proleague, MSL/OSL season. One fact that makes maps produce more exciting games is the distances between bases, even a 5 secs more walking to get to your opponent's base makes a huge difference. Its the matter of win or loss in many situation.
2 weeks after SC2 was release. I was watching a Chinese gaming program from PLU, and "Dashi" one of the most respected guy in the Chinese scene(think chinese Day9) was telling people that Protoss will get nerf and nerf patch after patch because of the warp gate mechanism.
He said the warp gate is a cool idea but it makes balancing Protoss impossible. No race should have the ability to put units anywhere on the map, that pretty much negate the effect of distance which is one of the most important aspect in a strategy game.Come to think of it, his words came true time after time. Protoss will get nerf again, please mark my words.
Solution:
What I think could work to solve the warp-gate while still keeping its in game is make the Warpgate can only warp units to a Warp-prism, see the name? Yeah thats what it does. Warp-prism is greatly under use rightnow despite the fact that 2-3 months ago, some Protoss starts to use it, but it really never catches up even untill now after 10 months after the release of WoL.
By this change, and some build time change from Gateway, we can all see what we miss from SC:BW again. 10 Gateway produce units to a rally point, marching toward the terran turtle over and over again, I prefer this not the sneaky I win because I can hide a pylon somewhere.
Damn, I just want to rant, and I've done it :D.
 
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I preferred BW as a game and suppose it was more balanced, but gateway units are pretty weak as fighters in sc2 (i.e. what will a warped in sentry be capable of), and by the time warp gate is finished researching every race has enough to kill the units that are warped in one cycle. And any smart player will check for proxy pylons, and even if they are far enough away not to get scouted, you won't save that much time with them unless the warp in is close, so the advantage is gone.
And also, medivacs vs. dropships kinda makes drops insanely good for terran compared to sc1, so warp prisms don't really edge them out. And additionally, regarding "putting units anywhere on the map," notice Boxer's style of making a forward barracks to pressure, and then if it doesn't work or becomes less useful, he'll fly it home.
Can't really comment for zerg because their tier 1 is so strange compared to SC1.
Not a qq or anything, just think that the warp gate mechanic sounds more imbalanced in theory than in practice.
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It is an idea. The other proposal was to make larger cooldown over larger distance. but still, the mechanic is so entrenched I don't see it changing.
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I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
That's a pretty awesome idea.
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
Protoss players had a good time without Warp-Gates in SC: BW. Why would they start dying fast without WG now? It would take a while to adjust, but it wouldn't be impossible. Another thing that's annoying with WGs is the fact that a Protoss can keep pace with Zerg production with enough WGs. It's kind of ridiculous that a late-game Toss can drop down 16 gates, build 16 units, Chrono and then warp-in again to have a full army that can take on what the Zerg just created. It kind of ruins the whole Zerg swarm mechanic, but whatever.
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How about you don't let the Protoss put forward pylons everywhere?
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I do quite like ure idea, altho i think it puts too much emphasis on one unit, the warp prison, and would make it way too important in every match up. I agree that rampant warp ins takes away a lot of what an RTS is about by bypassing terrain and walk distances. A solution i prefer tho is to make every warp in cost resources, perhaps 10 gas or something.
That way warp gates would be used in specific circumstances e.g. timing attack or for warping zealots to nearby expansion for harass. It would also mean though that it was more cost efficient to turn warp gates back into gateways or vice versa at varying points in the game (making a cool macro mechanic) since needlessly throwing away 10 gas or w/e would be unnecessary and add up for pro players. It would also make 4 gates worse, saving pvp maybe. Personally a think it solves lots of problems ^^.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
I really like this solution.
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
While this does address the early - game shenanigans of warpgate, it doesn't deal with the common complaint regarding the ability to just warp in units where ever you want with your high warpgate count in the late game. I'm not sure how valid this complaint is (i'm not convinced), but its something to consider.
I wouldn't mind seeing the upgradable pylon though - there should be at least some sort of cost involved with using warpgates that just doesn't exist in this current form.
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My suggestion is:
- If a pylon is within 10 radius of a nexus, it can warp in normally
- If it isn't uints warp-in 2-3 times slower.
- Warp prism will allow normal warp-in times.
This means warp prisms are actually useful now, and u can still easily warp-in quick units for defence.
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On April 26 2011 13:13 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
I really like this solution.
Yeah, pretty good. You could even keep the cost low, but time high.
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonies back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
!
As someone who thinks the current incarnation of warp gates are a terrible design, this is the first suggestion I have read that is even palatable and it is great
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with any of these solutions they should add UI to the point where you actually can warp in which allows you to warp in whatever unit you want at the location automatically and power down your gateways for the cooldown time. It would be dumb IMO to have to spend 20 seconds transforming all your gateways back and forth otherwise
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United States17042 Posts
On April 26 2011 13:13 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
I really like this solution.
I'm thinking of a dark pylon type of building?
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
Wow, such a simple solution... but sounds really good! You should post this on the bnet forums.
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
You, sir, are a genius and a gentleman.
There have been many proposed solutions to the Warpgate problem, but I do agree with everyone else: this solution could be the best of all.
Although I don't expect Blizzard to be implementing such a major change via a patch, perhaps they may consider it for the expansion pack. Frozen Throne had quite a few fundamental changes to WC3, so I expect most of the major fixes to fundamental issues to come from HotS.
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
I don't really think this would be as good a solution as people think it would be. But now that I think about it some more, maybe it is.
Really, there's nothing that could stop a toss from simply putting down the pylon earlier and cutting probes for a bit to get the resources to upgrade the pylon, but it could delay the 4WG and give more time to scout it.
I don't really know, warp-in is a really cool mechanic but it seems to be centered around abuse. You HAVE to sit there and manually place units, so all it does is make macro more of a hassle if you aren't using it for some sneaky reason.
Off the top of my head maybe take out WG research and put twilight council/archive tech level upgrade for zealots (just one type of unit or something) that would let them be warped in at a pylon. It could still use the Warpgate hotkey we have now, and it would solve quite a few of the issues. Maybe.
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I agree with sentiments in OP, and also agree with "upgrade to warp-in pylon" - lots of people proposed that in beta and previously, but meh, 100 mineral continuous arbiter recall is still in the game... lol
But yah, when you have something that completely negates travel distance it is bound to create huge underlying problems in the game.
There's a reason arbiter recall was so powerful in brood war lategame, and in SC2 every pylon affords you that mobility and immediacy of army transfer. It's not so bad early game, but then when you hit late game with 30 gateways it essentially is even better than arbiters ever were
But i don't think they can change too much now obviously, although it is blizzard so they might be willing to change things more than people give them credit for !
I honestly think if gateways built as fast as warpgates do now, and warpgates were nerfed, protoss would be just as fine as they are now. They'd just have to learn to walk everywhere like T and Z and brood war players do ^_^ it reminds me of pre-khadayarin nerf, SC2 protoss were massively whining saying "omg we never can use templars again," and brood war protosses were like, "lol, this is how templar always were, no biggie man."
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I kinda like Stealthypoo's solution, but an alternative could be to just put a range on waygates. A rather large range, but a range nonetheless. Alternatively this range could emit from all Nexuses, and any gate could warp within a large range of any Nexus. Another option could be to only allow warp-ins in pylon power that is connected to the waygate. Of course warp prisms would be excempt from these rules.
I'd suggest even lowering warp prism costs a decent amount as well, so it'd be viable to set up staging areas with them rather than using forward pylons. It seems kinda lame that forward pylons are a 'better' option than a warp prism, when the warp prism exists for that very purpose. (And is much cooler, really.)
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EPT
