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I rarely write blog 'cos I am a lazy person, but some thing really bugs the hell out of me since the release of SC2. Its the Warp Gate from Protoss, please note that this is not a QQ or whining thread cos I've play SC:BW for too long and I've developed a sense of never QQ about balance unless its game breaker like the 150 minerals Spawning pool back in the late 90s of the last century.
Well, as I said, WG bugs the hell out of me, not because its something so gamebreaking, but the ways it affect the balance out of all races in SC2.
The reason SC:BW is so successful because of its vast quantity of new maps coming out every Proleague, MSL/OSL season. One fact that makes maps produce more exciting games is the distances between bases, even a 5 secs more walking to get to your opponent's base makes a huge difference. Its the matter of win or loss in many situation.
2 weeks after SC2 was release. I was watching a Chinese gaming program from PLU, and "Dashi" one of the most respected guy in the Chinese scene(think chinese Day9) was telling people that Protoss will get nerf and nerf patch after patch because of the warp gate mechanism.
He said the warp gate is a cool idea but it makes balancing Protoss impossible. No race should have the ability to put units anywhere on the map, that pretty much negate the effect of distance which is one of the most important aspect in a strategy game.Come to think of it, his words came true time after time. Protoss will get nerf again, please mark my words.
Solution:
What I think could work to solve the warp-gate while still keeping its in game is make the Warpgate can only warp units to a Warp-prism, see the name? Yeah thats what it does. Warp-prism is greatly under use rightnow despite the fact that 2-3 months ago, some Protoss starts to use it, but it really never catches up even untill now after 10 months after the release of WoL.
By this change, and some build time change from Gateway, we can all see what we miss from SC:BW again. 10 Gateway produce units to a rally point, marching toward the terran turtle over and over again, I prefer this not the sneaky I win because I can hide a pylon somewhere.
Damn, I just want to rant, and I've done it :D.
 
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I preferred BW as a game and suppose it was more balanced, but gateway units are pretty weak as fighters in sc2 (i.e. what will a warped in sentry be capable of), and by the time warp gate is finished researching every race has enough to kill the units that are warped in one cycle. And any smart player will check for proxy pylons, and even if they are far enough away not to get scouted, you won't save that much time with them unless the warp in is close, so the advantage is gone.
And also, medivacs vs. dropships kinda makes drops insanely good for terran compared to sc1, so warp prisms don't really edge them out. And additionally, regarding "putting units anywhere on the map," notice Boxer's style of making a forward barracks to pressure, and then if it doesn't work or becomes less useful, he'll fly it home.
Can't really comment for zerg because their tier 1 is so strange compared to SC1.
Not a qq or anything, just think that the warp gate mechanic sounds more imbalanced in theory than in practice.
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It is an idea. The other proposal was to make larger cooldown over larger distance. but still, the mechanic is so entrenched I don't see it changing.
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I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
That's a pretty awesome idea.
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
Protoss players had a good time without Warp-Gates in SC: BW. Why would they start dying fast without WG now? It would take a while to adjust, but it wouldn't be impossible. Another thing that's annoying with WGs is the fact that a Protoss can keep pace with Zerg production with enough WGs. It's kind of ridiculous that a late-game Toss can drop down 16 gates, build 16 units, Chrono and then warp-in again to have a full army that can take on what the Zerg just created. It kind of ruins the whole Zerg swarm mechanic, but whatever.
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How about you don't let the Protoss put forward pylons everywhere?
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I do quite like ure idea, altho i think it puts too much emphasis on one unit, the warp prison, and would make it way too important in every match up. I agree that rampant warp ins takes away a lot of what an RTS is about by bypassing terrain and walk distances. A solution i prefer tho is to make every warp in cost resources, perhaps 10 gas or something.
That way warp gates would be used in specific circumstances e.g. timing attack or for warping zealots to nearby expansion for harass. It would also mean though that it was more cost efficient to turn warp gates back into gateways or vice versa at varying points in the game (making a cool macro mechanic) since needlessly throwing away 10 gas or w/e would be unnecessary and add up for pro players. It would also make 4 gates worse, saving pvp maybe. Personally a think it solves lots of problems ^^.
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Calgary25981 Posts
On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
I really like this solution.
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
While this does address the early - game shenanigans of warpgate, it doesn't deal with the common complaint regarding the ability to just warp in units where ever you want with your high warpgate count in the late game. I'm not sure how valid this complaint is (i'm not convinced), but its something to consider.
I wouldn't mind seeing the upgradable pylon though - there should be at least some sort of cost involved with using warpgates that just doesn't exist in this current form.
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My suggestion is:
- If a pylon is within 10 radius of a nexus, it can warp in normally
- If it isn't uints warp-in 2-3 times slower.
- Warp prism will allow normal warp-in times.
This means warp prisms are actually useful now, and u can still easily warp-in quick units for defence.
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On April 26 2011 13:13 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
I really like this solution.
Yeah, pretty good. You could even keep the cost low, but time high.
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonies back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
!
As someone who thinks the current incarnation of warp gates are a terrible design, this is the first suggestion I have read that is even palatable and it is great
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with any of these solutions they should add UI to the point where you actually can warp in which allows you to warp in whatever unit you want at the location automatically and power down your gateways for the cooldown time. It would be dumb IMO to have to spend 20 seconds transforming all your gateways back and forth otherwise
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United States17042 Posts
On April 26 2011 13:13 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
I really like this solution.
I'm thinking of a dark pylon type of building?
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
Wow, such a simple solution... but sounds really good! You should post this on the bnet forums.
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
You, sir, are a genius and a gentleman.
There have been many proposed solutions to the Warpgate problem, but I do agree with everyone else: this solution could be the best of all.
Although I don't expect Blizzard to be implementing such a major change via a patch, perhaps they may consider it for the expansion pack. Frozen Throne had quite a few fundamental changes to WC3, so I expect most of the major fixes to fundamental issues to come from HotS.
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
I don't really think this would be as good a solution as people think it would be. But now that I think about it some more, maybe it is.
Really, there's nothing that could stop a toss from simply putting down the pylon earlier and cutting probes for a bit to get the resources to upgrade the pylon, but it could delay the 4WG and give more time to scout it.
I don't really know, warp-in is a really cool mechanic but it seems to be centered around abuse. You HAVE to sit there and manually place units, so all it does is make macro more of a hassle if you aren't using it for some sneaky reason.
Off the top of my head maybe take out WG research and put twilight council/archive tech level upgrade for zealots (just one type of unit or something) that would let them be warped in at a pylon. It could still use the Warpgate hotkey we have now, and it would solve quite a few of the issues. Maybe.
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I agree with sentiments in OP, and also agree with "upgrade to warp-in pylon" - lots of people proposed that in beta and previously, but meh, 100 mineral continuous arbiter recall is still in the game... lol
But yah, when you have something that completely negates travel distance it is bound to create huge underlying problems in the game.
There's a reason arbiter recall was so powerful in brood war lategame, and in SC2 every pylon affords you that mobility and immediacy of army transfer. It's not so bad early game, but then when you hit late game with 30 gateways it essentially is even better than arbiters ever were
But i don't think they can change too much now obviously, although it is blizzard so they might be willing to change things more than people give them credit for !
I honestly think if gateways built as fast as warpgates do now, and warpgates were nerfed, protoss would be just as fine as they are now. They'd just have to learn to walk everywhere like T and Z and brood war players do ^_^ it reminds me of pre-khadayarin nerf, SC2 protoss were massively whining saying "omg we never can use templars again," and brood war protosses were like, "lol, this is how templar always were, no biggie man."
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I kinda like Stealthypoo's solution, but an alternative could be to just put a range on waygates. A rather large range, but a range nonetheless. Alternatively this range could emit from all Nexuses, and any gate could warp within a large range of any Nexus. Another option could be to only allow warp-ins in pylon power that is connected to the waygate. Of course warp prisms would be excempt from these rules.
I'd suggest even lowering warp prism costs a decent amount as well, so it'd be viable to set up staging areas with them rather than using forward pylons. It seems kinda lame that forward pylons are a 'better' option than a warp prism, when the warp prism exists for that very purpose. (And is much cooler, really.)
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I don't know the best solution, but from what I've seen (especially PvP), warp gates destroy the game in so many ways. E.g. having units spawn at the same rate and location as your opponent when there isn't even an obvious defender's advantage makes for games that are too build-dependant. (this is what we see unfold in pretty much every single PvP)
Simply removing the mechanic would solve a lot of problems as I see it.
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On April 26 2011 17:53 XsebT wrote:
I don't know the best solution, but from what I've seen (especially PvP), warp gates destroy the game in so many ways. E.g. having units spawn at the same rate and location as your opponent when there isn't even an obvious defender's advantage makes for games that are too build-dependant. (this is what we see unfold in pretty much every single PvP)
Simply removing the mechanic would solve a lot of problems as I see it.
How about adding a longer cooldown when proxying stuff (warping) and like 5-10 seconds faster when just producing old school?
Even though you upgrade the gateways to warpgates, it would make sense if you could use them as gateways too. It's not too complicated IMO, just have a different hotkey for the buildings than the warpgate ability.
There, PvP is fixed and protoss slightly nerfed without drastic changes or overkills.
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This is one of the foundation arguments of my "Why I hate SC2" rant with friends. Another is medivacs, sensor towers, and creep "bonus".
Void rays are pretty gay too. Along with the mule.
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The only suggestion could work imo is the pylon-upgrade one. Only enabling warp gate for warp prism would just feel stupid and random. I'd rather remove warp gate altogether and buff gateway units so they're equally strong as the other races t1 units.
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How about the further away from the gateway the unit is warping in, the longer it takes. So if the unit that is warping in is being warped in close to the warp gate, it takes normal time. But if its being warped half way across the map, it takes twice as long (for example anyway)
The upgrading of the pylons does sort of fix the problem but maybe not. Really we would have to see all these ideas being tested on the PTR. They have the PTR, but I don't understand why they don't address some of these problems and test it out. It seems they are just trying to find a back route around the problem. Too be honest, if something doesn't work, take it out. I would much rather have a balanced game that I got to get used to, than a game that isn't balanced.
Like the Chinese guy said. The warp-gates are indeed a cool idea, but anything in game that negates travel just is too imbalanced. Maybe it wouldn't be so imbalanced if smart casting wasn't in game. Good old brood war... F3 (Camera switches to gates) Spam warp gate to location at F4. But that would make it super hard haha.
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
I really like this! Especially if there's a material gas cost and time delay involved -- that would definitely compeltely change PvP, and make toss in general a lot more skill-based and the game overall more strategic. Scouting, denying, sniping and choosing warp-in pylons on both players ... really nice suggestion. (I guess this is kind of like how zerg upgrade overlords to overseers, except this is probably much cooler!)
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On April 26 2011 13:56 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 13:13 Chill wrote:On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
I really like this solution. I'm thinking of a dark pylon type of building?
I believe the function of this (which was later renamed the Obelisk) was to increase probe movement speed slightly in the area of effect. You would place one in your mineral line in order to increase the amount of minerals mined. It ended up being overpowered, and it was replaced by chrono boost. It was something to counteract MULEs.
Edit: Looks like it did that, then it was changed to have some abilities, including shield battery, and now it's just gone.
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On April 26 2011 21:42 Wolf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 13:56 GHOSTCLAW wrote:On April 26 2011 13:13 Chill wrote:On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
I really like this solution. I'm thinking of a dark pylon type of building? I believe the function of this (which was later renamed the Obelisk) was to increase probe movement speed slightly in the area of effect. You would place one in your mineral line in order to increase the amount of minerals mined. It ended up being overpowered, and it was replaced by chrono boost. It was something to counteract MULEs.
I think if Blizzard were to embrace the idea of a "Warp-in Pylon," they already have the art assets available in the form of the Dark Pylon/Obelisk.
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On April 26 2011 21:44 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 21:42 Wolf wrote:On April 26 2011 13:56 GHOSTCLAW wrote:On April 26 2011 13:13 Chill wrote:On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
I really like this solution. I'm thinking of a dark pylon type of building? I believe the function of this (which was later renamed the Obelisk) was to increase probe movement speed slightly in the area of effect. You would place one in your mineral line in order to increase the amount of minerals mined. It ended up being overpowered, and it was replaced by chrono boost. It was something to counteract MULEs. I think if Blizzard were to embrace the idea of a "Warp-in Pylon," they already have the art assets available in the form of the Dark Pylon/Obelisk.
Yep!
![[image loading]](http://www.sc2blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/dark-pylon2.jpg)
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
Holy crap, that's pretty genius.
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So what you're saying is that you want the warp mechanic to be more like the nydus wurm. I thought they were already too similar.
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Calgary25981 Posts
On April 26 2011 13:56 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 13:13 Chill wrote:On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
I really like this solution. I'm thinking of a dark pylon type of building?
I think you just give a Pylon an upgrade - Upgrade to Warp Pylon. It costs $100 and takes 30 seconds or something like that.
Alternatively, you give the nexus that ability and make it cost 50 energy + money + some time.
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The Warp-in pylon or the ability for a pylon to be upgraded into a warp-in pylon are very good ideas. But its still doesn't solve the fact that you still have ability to negates vast distances(in both early and late game) which is the core problem with the warp mechanism. But if Blizzard embrace this idea I think everybody will be happier and add some depth into Protoss play thus more depth to SC2 in general.
One thing I can think of right now is, make warpgate still be able to produce units the original way as a gateway and can only warp-in to a warp prism. Since the PTR 1.3.3 patch indicate that gateway build time and warp gate cooldown times are actually the same now, this will even make more sense.
When a Protoss not attacking, he will produce units normally with his warpgate. On the occasion of offense, you bring a warp-prism at you, and you can warp in units to that.
The opponent however will try to snipe your warp-prism, which makes it more exciting in term of micro and placement of the warp-prism and negate the ability of a Protoss to infinite warps in units as long as you have enough WG or Nexus charges.
This will also completely change the way PvP is playing out right now. PvP will very likely not be a coin-flip anymore.( People are now comparing PvP in SC2 to ZvZ in SC:BW. I found that in some sense a ridiculous compare. ZvZ in SC:BW actually not very much of a coin-flip but really rely alot alot on micro. )
Though, with this change you still be able to 4 gate as Tester show us today in his 1st game vs Anypro, ofc minus the fact that he sends his Warp prism into 6 waiting Stalkers that he knew they would be there  .
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On April 27 2011 00:24 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 13:56 GHOSTCLAW wrote:On April 26 2011 13:13 Chill wrote:On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
I really like this solution. I'm thinking of a dark pylon type of building? I think you just give a Pylon an upgrade - Upgrade to Warp Pylon. It costs $100 and takes 30 seconds or something like that. Alternatively, you give the nexus that ability and make it cost 50 energy + money + some time.
That's a neat idea for the nexus to use energy to actually produce the pylons (+money/+time). I like it :D
Also, people in this thread are bitching about how warp-in pylons don't solve the protoss ability to warp in cross map etc. The idea of the warp-in pylon is to help limit this and make it 'more' preventable both early game and late game. By game design, the protoss are supposed to have the ability to cross-map reinforce - removing this ability entirely would alter the game design and how every matchup works massively, hence removal should be avoided. . Just wanted to clarify that for some of the people who've been posting.
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On April 26 2011 13:11 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
Protoss players had a good time without Warp-Gates in SC: BW. Why would they start dying fast without WG now? It would take a while to adjust, but it wouldn't be impossible. Another thing that's annoying with WGs is the fact that a Protoss can keep pace with Zerg production with enough WGs. It's kind of ridiculous that a late-game Toss can drop down 16 gates, build 16 units, Chrono and then warp-in again to have a full army that can take on what the Zerg just created. It kind of ruins the whole Zerg swarm mechanic, but whatever.
Because your gateway units take about 1.6x as long to make as comparable zerg/terran units, which happen to be much stronger than they were in broodwar, and yours are the same as before or weaker (minus blink). Good luck holding out against a remax without going back to your base, unless you were ahead already. You're just not going to have much persistent offensive capability of many maps due to the long reinforce distance without having been ahead already.
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On April 26 2011 12:50 Stealthypoo wrote:
I see what you're saying - but, it's not viable considering how the tech tree works and how late you'd actually get the warp-prism. You'd die - fast.
A simpler idea, on the same perspective - is to create some sort of 'warp-in pylon' that can be constructed by the Protoss army. That way the mechanic stays in the game - this'll ensure whatever 'balance' that is in the game - isn't severely effected. An idea would be to make Pylons act like spore colonys back in SCBW where you have a pylon which has the ability (For some set price) to 'upgrade' into your supposed 'Warp-In Pylon". I think by creating an additional cost, plus a longer delay - would help solve some of the timing crisis involved with the warp in timing attacks (ex. early 4gs, etc) and increase the risks of cheese/all-ins.
well damn...I think you might have just solved all warpgate timing pushes...too bad blizz won't think of something that is so clearly a good idea because sometimes it seems like they just randomly change things with no thought at all
anyways, +1 for you sir
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I thought of this today too when playing random 4s with friends.
1. Did a massive ling runby on Outpost and got to the mineral line, only to have Zealot Stalker warp in my face so the lings would auto acquire them. His Gateways were miles away from the choke :S.
2. This always happens, whenever I harass with Muta (yea I do it lots to pretend I'm Jaedong, go figure ><). My initial few Mutas would fly in sometimes when the Protoss has his army out of position somewhere, only to have Stalkers warp in so I have to pull back before I can do the amount of damage I should have been able to do. While this sounds like a defender's advantage, the main Protoss army can be anywhere without having to invest in cannons or holding units back.
In a game whose predecessor emphasized positioning to be one of its fundementals, as stated before, the ability to have units instantly and anywhere is a major asset. Even with the Nydus (both versions) you would have units on hand that are near the Nydus.
Imagine if Jaedong doom dropped Bisu late game and had 15 units spawn in his face :O.
I don't know, since SC2 balance talk is a really delicate thing on TL, I normally refrain from saying anything even remotely close to discussing balance. I only play SC2 for fun with friends and don't really care for my record or anything.
I'm not saying that Warp Gates are necessarily imbalanced. Just an observation from someone who watches BW playing SC2. And after being subjugated to the various WG mechanics, I'll just say it's not really that fun to deal with.
In short, not really trying to imbalance whine, but I don't really find the WG mechanic to be all that exciting.
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EPT
