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To start this off I want to state that this is not about what the new fungal growth (as of 1.3) will do to ZvZ or ZvT. This is purely about ZvP, written from the perspective of a Protoss player.
When I first read the changes made to fungal growth I almost crapped myself. For anyone who doesn't know these changes read: + Show Spoiler +Fungal growth lasts half as long now but does the same damage, which means it does damage twice as fast. On top of that, it does +30% damage to armored units. It also did not become a missile cast like originally proposed.
Upon hearing this I naturally panicked a little. As a Protoss player, nearly every late game unit I use is armored. The list includes: Immortals, Colossi, Carriers and Void Rays as well as the humble Stalker. It certainly sounds like late game ZvP might get a little rough for Protoss if the Zerg player decides he really likes Infestors.
Then I crunched some numbers.
For anyone who doesn't want to do math, that's 9 damage-per-second to non-armored and 11.7 damage-per-second to armored. This is guaranteed damage as long as it hits because the units cannot escape from it like psi-storm. (Note: I'm not saying that psi storm is worse)
How many Fungals it takes to kill Protoss Units:
+ Show Spoiler +High Templar: 2 and a poke
Sentry: 2 and a poke
Dark Templar: 3.3
Stalker: 3.5
Zealot: 4 and a poke
Phoenix: 5
Void Ray: 5.3
Immortal: 6 and a poke
Colossus: 7.5
Carrier: 9.6
Archon: 10
Mothership: 15!
These stats were done just taking the shields+hp of the units and dividing by 36 or 46.8 depending on armor type.
Looking at those numbers and taking into consideration that you would have to execute that many Fungals consecutively (otherwise shields would recharge) it seems good but not impossible to deal with.
As to why I think these changes will be good for late-game ZvP:
Thinking as a Protoss player, if you see ghosts, what is the response? Either you invest in some fancy micro or, more likely, you whip out some Obs and some Templar to combat them. Ghosts are great at fighting the Protoss death-ball and you have to match them with your own spellcasters.
Before this patch, playing as Protoss, if you see Infestors, what do you do? Do you actually make Templar just to fight Infestors? Not from my experience. Generally you continue to just push forward with the death-ball. The 36 damage from a fungal is nothing compared to the 100 damage from an EMP. Sure the Zealots are held in place but the Colossus are still raining death down from above.
The point is, hopefully, with this buff to Infestors, Zerg will have a more potent way to deal with massive death-balls and Protoss will be forced to actually acknowledge Infestors as a threat and take counter measures like they do with Ghosts. This will create more intricate micro between the two races and more exciting matches to watch and play.
Please feel free to discuss or use my data to completely refute me! Yay discussion. Mothergoose also created a thread recently in the strategy section that talks about this more from the Zerg perspective.
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The TL;DR of this thread reads a bit better as:
Why the new fungal is better: it kills everything so fucking fast. EVERYTHING. ALL DEAD. QUICK-QUICK.
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Fungal is now more powerful than storm!
Guaranteed 36 (+11 armored) damage and stun with larger radius vs 80 damage over a few seconds which is easily dodgeable. Double cast and you have a full, guaranteed, larger area psi storm for free, instead of a worse version for 200/200 and a long research time. Also the energy upgrade still exists for infestor, not for ht.
Only things you can't really fungal to death are colossi, carriers, and HT. 2 are demolished by corrupters, and Fungal still outranges HT feedback due to AoE.
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Spoilers are quotes from liquipedia. Fungal needs to be updated there, FYI anyone who does that sort of stuff.
Storm + Show Spoiler +: Psionic Storm (also known as Psi Storm) is an offensive spell cast by the Protoss High Templar. Psi Storm creates an energy storm in a target area, dealing a total of 80 damage to all units within the area over a 4 second period. It does 10 damage for every half second. The cooldown for this ability is 3 seconds.
Range: 9
Radius: 1.5
Fungal + Show Spoiler + (which needs to get updated on the liqudipedia): Fungal Growth (or Fungal for short) is an offensive area of effect spell cast by the Zerg Infestor. Upon casting, an instant explosion spreads out and immobilizes all enemy units within the area of effect, dealing 36 damage over 8 seconds. Affected units can still retaliate against enemies within their range. Like all damaging offensive spells, Fungal Growth maintains its effectiveness as the game progresses because it is not mitigated by armor upgrades, providing consistent damage.
Range: 9
Radius: 2
Maybe it is more powerful, Toss101, maybe not, but it's not as easy to get in the midgame as storm. The templar tech tree is more essential for the midgame army than the infestor pit is. Infestors are useful in ZvZ midgame, certainly, but you wouldn't get them in ZvT very often (mutalingbling or roachhydra play) or ZvP (roachhydracorruptor or mutaling). Maybe zergs WILL get them now, but the toss getting storm is easier because they are already getting the twilight for blink and upgrades, and possibly for DT harass in mid-late on 3rd's and 4th's.
Once you get lategame, okay then infestor tech is obviously there but not the upgrade for energy. and infestors can't just feedback templar to prevent them from storming, eh?
IMO the fungal buff will have biggest changes against blink stalkers, bio balls, and roach ZvZ.
Edit: grammar lozl
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Well said lsomer.
101toss: The point of this thread was not that Psi Storm is bad or Fungal Growth is better or anything about the Kaydarian Amulet. It was about the fact that this change has happened, whether you like it or not, and Protoss can still deal with it effectively.
I wish I had made my OP more brief because people seem to missing the second point, the most important point, that Protoss can deal with the new Infestors the same way they deal with Ghosts currently. EMP has a range of 10 vs Feedback's 9 and yet people still manage to Feedback the Ghosts consistently.
This Infestor upgrade only makes the Infestors actually viable, it doesn't make them impossible to deal with.
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On March 24 2011 12:41 Isomer wrote:
Maybe it is more powerful, Toss101, maybe not, but it's not as easy to get in the midgame as storm. The templar tech tree is more essential for the midgame army than the infestor pit is.
what are you on about?
infestor pit is needed for hive tech...
toss dont even need templar archives for anything except HT... templar archives is situational, most will go for robo tech mid game anyway..
infestors can't just feedback templar to prevent them from storming, eh?
HT's move fuking slow, also cant burrow, move underground, storm has a smaller radius than FG and they have less HP.
On March 24 2011 22:45 tlilleberg wrote:
This Infestor upgrade only makes the Infestors actually viable, it doesn't make them impossible to deal with.
FG is like storm + forcefield, the two things zergs cry imba about lol
yes toss have Feedback but will you spend 50/150 to feedback an infestor (if it hasnt died by then) then simply wait 12 seconds to morph into an archon?
at least infestors/ghosts can cloak... HTs move slower than snails and are always vulnerable
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What you have to realize is that storm is good vs. Hydra/Ling and Muta if Zerg afks in them. What you have to realize is, fungal is good vs the entire protoss army. Now I'm not saying storming roaches does 0. But It feels like a complete waste to go storm vs a roach player. And with roach mobility he can run out of the way.
I think roach/infestor is VERY powerful vs protoss. Coupled with baneling drops, the new infestors are something not to take lightly.
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I don't agree at all. I'm not a fantasic player (diamond), but I've honestly tried to incorporate infestory play vs. late game protoss deathball and it just doesn't prevent you from dying. In fact, usually they seem to get picked off or fedback faster than they even get the fungal off making them entirely useless. THe collosus deathbeams just tear them a new one the second they want to fungal. If they burrow, LOL observer is right there to own them in the face. They just really need to give Zerg a better tool for dealing with the protoss deathball or they have to improve our Tier 1 units so that we actually have a chance to take out toss early game.
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EPT
