• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 17:59
CET 23:59
KST 07:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview1TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners11Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting12
Community News
[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation10Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA8StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon!45$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship7
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview [TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada Craziest Micro Moments Of All Time?
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 3 Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest Tenacious Turtle Tussle Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle Brood War web app to calculate unit interactions [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions BW General Discussion Terran 1:35 12 Gas Optimization
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] RO32 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO32 Group C - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers PvZ map balance How to stay on top of macro?
Other Games
General Games
Clair Obscur - Expedition 33 Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Artificial Intelligence Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Dyadica Gospel – a Pulp No…
Hildegard
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1751 users

Unions, Political Discussions, etc.

Blogs > Sebby Lebby
Post a Reply
Sebby Lebby
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
68 Posts
February 26 2011 13:26 GMT
#1
Unions are a band-aid. They alter a flawed system in a favorable way, but the real problem is not healed, just covered up with some patchwork.

The root problem is not how much teachers make, or the relationship between public sector and private sector--i.e. people defending their utopian or practical vision for capitalism, socialism, or whatever.

The root problem that all this stuff is aimed at is how to have good teachers. We hear every point of view say how their side is going to give the best teachers:
-i.e. "take away unions and we'll have good teachers"
-i.e. "only use private schools and everyone will have good teachers"
-i.e. "let unions make sure teachers get paid enough/more and we'll have good teachers"

Everyone is just shouting their own opinion about what's going to give the best education, but no one is addressing how we can't all be right.

It would be nice is governments figured out how to give people the education they want at the right price (assuming compulsary education--another debate). Unions don't necessarily push for this, they just push as much as they can. So the result can be, as others have said, people getting more than they should (esp. people who aren't doing good jobs).

We rely on governments to figure this stuff out. Pressure from those we are paying to do some piece of that stuff in no way is related to doing it will, or paying the right price for it. It's simply raw pressure from self-interested workers.

Now, it's not bad completely, because the root situation was that they were being undercompensated, taken advantage of, crushed or exploited to begin with. At least that's the idea. Basically, some pushing bumped their status to a better place, and then people were like, hey, unions are good. But that pushing is not always going to be when it's needed, or in the amount it's needed.

So like I said, we rely on governments to figure stuff out. If they suck at it, that's the problem. If we concede that they can figure out the public need and address it, then where do unions play into that?

So if you want to take sides and be practical, then it's like, is the push needed now or not? That's one argument going on, with people taking the unions' side or some other side. But again, ultimately the question is which position results in people having good teachers, I think.

But pushing against or propping up unions, according to the weather, so to speak, is a pretty indirect, and thus probably ineffective, way to getting to the goal. The goal is for everyone to have good teachers. There's got to be a more direct way to make that happen than tightening or loosening the grip on unions. What kind of system of governance is that?

Imagine if a company worked that way, or an army. Some other analagous entity. Imagine if the way your army worked was that groups of soldiers would band together for themselves, refusing to work or otherwise making a stink or a cost for their superiors, until they got their demands. How would such an army achieve their goals? Likewise with a company.

So like, come on guys, the problem of governments analyzing and coming up with solutions aside, assuming they can do that at all, they should go ahead and do it directly. The private sector does better. Therefore, eliminate the public sector? No... therefore, learn from it. There has to be an actual reason why governments fail to learn from and emulate the successes of the private sector.

This is a very specific practical problem. Hire good teachers. Run good schools. Why is it when governments do this, it just implodes? Must be something wrong with the governments. Some are better than others. Learn from them. Fire the bad governments, then the good governments will do a good job. I refuse to believe the answer is no governance, just some hope that free market will balance out. Debating whether the invisible hand works is just troll baiting. I think most trolls are lawyers or business major types who love to engage dishonestly but also blend their own lazy version of what they actually believe into their work--anyways, that's another tangent better left alone. Point is, tons of people are ready to be set off on some huge argument defending the glory days of unregulated markets or at least the glorious potential etc. etc. And that's great but does it need to pop up every time people want to talk about policy changes? Is "take away the policies and everything will be better" really something that needs to be brought up in every policy discussion? Hey, maybe, who cares. Just a blog post.

*
my mojo's so dope.
exeexe
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Denmark937 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 13:59:04
February 26 2011 13:57 GMT
#2
The politicans should just keep their fingers out of how the teachers should do their job. Let each individual school manage their education by themselves. The thing the politicians ought to control is setting up checkpoints aka the level of tests. Students that can pass this test can continue, students that cant must recieve more education and take the test again.

So when you hear something like if we do xxx that will create good teachers its just utter rubish. Let them handle it by themselves, they are the best to do that.

Ask yourself when you last heared that if we do xxx that will create good lumberjacks. No you dont hear that because the lumberjacks are the best to know how they can do the job best.

In Denmark there is example after example where the politicians had too long fingers and the result is just a big mess.
And never forget, its always easier to throw a bomb downstairs than up. - George Orwell
Sebby Lebby
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
68 Posts
February 26 2011 15:07 GMT
#3
Hey, that's a good point too. The point is to put someone who knows how, in charge of getting good lumberjacks, having them, being them, etc. And if they don't get results, fire them, get someone else. You know, like a manager, or trainer, something like that. But a politician (or policy) is too distant and general to do that job. I think you're right.

But now you're making me side with the Republicans basically, who would probably want to say things like, no unions, just fire bad principals/superintendents whatever until the schools kick ass. Like there's too much micromanagement. Just put someone in charge of making that shit right, someone who has done it before--hey maybe someone from the private sector. Hmm...

I think politicians fucking everything up they touch though is a sign of the faults of the political system though. They can get elected/compete/win elections through pulling micromanagey gimicks/stunts that sound good in ads, but complicate things horribly. And voters seldom see clearly what the results are or who is responsible for them. It's a big clusterfuck if you ask me.
my mojo's so dope.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 1m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft379
ProTech126
JuggernautJason119
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 597
White-Ra 246
Artosis 84
NaDa 18
Dota 2
PGG 141
Counter-Strike
Foxcn227
Other Games
Grubby4560
gofns4538
fl0m532
shahzam343
summit1g252
C9.Mang089
Livibee74
ViBE71
PPMD21
Chillindude14
fpsfer 5
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 22 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 73
• RyuSc2 48
• musti20045 31
• davetesta16
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 50
• HerbMon 7
• Michael_bg 4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21156
League of Legends
• imaqtpie2956
• TFBlade1097
Other Games
• WagamamaTV442
• Shiphtur198
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
2h 1m
RSL Revival
11h 1m
Classic vs Creator
Cure vs TriGGeR
Kung Fu Cup
13h 1m
GuMiho vs MaNa
herO vs ShoWTimE
Classic vs TBD
WardiTV Korean Royale
13h 1m
CranKy Ducklings
1d 11h
RSL Revival
1d 11h
herO vs Gerald
ByuN vs SHIN
Kung Fu Cup
1d 13h
Cure vs Reynor
IPSL
1d 18h
ZZZero vs rasowy
Napoleon vs KameZerg
BSL 21
1d 21h
Tarson vs Julia
Doodle vs OldBoy
eOnzErG vs WolFix
StRyKeR vs Aeternum
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
2 days
Reynor vs sOs
Maru vs Ryung
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
2 days
BSL 21
2 days
JDConan vs Semih
Dragon vs Dienmax
Tech vs NewOcean
TerrOr vs Artosis
IPSL
2 days
Dewalt vs WolFix
eOnzErG vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-07
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
RSL Revival: Season 3
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual

Upcoming

SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.