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Preface:
I would like to note that I have a huge amount of respect for iEchoic for making creating such a unique TvT style. However I love a challenge, and getting a standard all round TvT style to work well against the iEchoic build is my current challenge. I have nothing against iEchoic in person.
I would also like to note that there is no way to anonymise names in replays unfortunately. Spooka is a great determined SC2 player and a really nice guy. If you meet him online, be sure to say gl hf gg ^_^. Don't be a troll.
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Here we go.
I decided to post this in blogs because I feel that I am only 1 step towards solidifying a solid TvT style. Until I get many replays against many different players, I don't feel that I am ready yet to post a thread about this in the strategy forum.
The reason I am posting this early however, is that there is a big commotion about Terran players who are stumped on how to play against the iEchoic build without doing the same thing themselves.
Although I have limited experience against this build, I believe that the iEchoic build has a strong weakness. Simply put with the same economy, the iEchoic build crumbles against standard mech pushes because of the units fragility, late aggression and expansion timing. I believe this can be easily exploited with an early expansion and hellion tight sim city followed by a tank viking death push, to me it just seemed like common sense.
This was my second non-ladder game against someone who has a 20-5 record using the iEchoic build in master league.
Furthermore, I am only a 2.8k diamond player vsing a 3.1k master league player and beat him with standard mech and a good sim city. This should quieten down a lot of excuses for me being the better player, or him being a player who does not understand the build properly, because I am the worse player and I had only vsed the build twice until this game.
Points to consider:
1. I knew he was going to do the iEchoic build
2. Opponent didn't tell me what the build order was (I looked it up briefly on TL, I also played against it once before)
3. I had never played against this opponent before
4. Opponent has a 20-5 win ratio in master league using this build.
5. I have only played against the iEchoic build once before vsing him
6. I was not in my normal SC playing state of mind, one of remembering timings for next time, and learning and thinking and devising strategy while playing
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142947-1v1-terran-shakuras-plateau
Note that this is not a perfect guide on how to beat the build. I make a lot of mistakes in this game. This is due to thinking while playing which normally you don't do, I was thinking about how to simcity my main and forgot 13 gas, and got supply blocked. I also normally build a lot more factories than 2, my state of mind was completely different to how I normally play SC2 because I had to come up with a strategy on the fly against a build order I didn't really understand.
The best thing to do when watching this is to take key points.
- Sim city negating hellion attacks.
- Getting a feel for the best time to scan and decide your 2 base mech push.
- Save scans before you push.
- Where to position turrets.
- How much money you can waste on turrets.
- Hellion drop timing.
- Hellions and banshees are actually made of tin-foil, don't be afraid to push out when the opponent is greedy!
Taking note of my own build order timings, and push timings I would not recommend yet. Simply put there is a lot of refining to do
For example, I did the 2 base mech timing simply on a whim, when I felt "the time was right". It just so happened that that was when he got his 3rd and his BCs were just arriving.
Mistakes I made this game:
No 13 gas causing late tank timing
Possibly too many turrets
Fail macro due to not enough factories
Idle scvs
3rd 4th gas timing
No scans, just spontaneously attacked
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A brief history of my thought processes before I decided to start saving replays and dedicate some time to this.
Game 1 (Ladder game): The first time I ever saw it, and only briefly witnessed it on TeamLiquid. Successfully defended with a fast expansion and Thors, hellions and banshees are rendered completely useless. I lose quite a few scvs, but not so many that I managed to still maintain an economic lead. I lose around 10 thors to 2 base BattleCruisers with Yamato Gun and type out.
Observations after game 1:
- Build depends on Blue Flame hellion drop and poke at nat as well. Therefore, sim city is vital, if the hellions do no damage, they are simply a waste, as they will do nothing to defend against a mech push.
- Late expansion timing, however early map control can completely flip the economic disadvantage. The key is to realise that the hellions and banshees are actually made of tin-foil, don't be afraid to push out.
- Lacks very early game pressure because of the double gas and 1 rax. Very exploitable, you can fast expand, or you could possibly also go marine scv all in if there is no wall.
- BattleCruisers are actually used, and quickly off two bases. Thors are useless by this time because of yamato gun.
Game 2 (Custom game): I go 12 barracks 13 gas into 15CC by not building marines until after the CC goes down. At 8:30 the hellion drop comes in and I've left a half-matrix gap between the gas and supply depot, hellions get in the mineral line, I type out before any scvs even get hit.
Observations after Game 2
- Hellion drop comes at 8:30. Before then finish the sim city, have turrets and a couple tanks, with a couple queued on the way. The biggest point would be not letting the dropship drop hellions inside your mineral line when its sim citied. Don't neglect on turrets, you can still come out ahead economically.
- Sim City must be BroodWar lings tight!
Game 3: You have unlocked a new quest!
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(Please read above before commenting about this, and understand I make a lot of beginner mistakes due to my thought processes hampering my game performance)
List of replays so far:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142947-1v1-terran-shakuras-plateau
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TL/DR: 2.8k Diamond Mech play beats 3.1k Master League iEchoic build. Will be working on more replays to truly solidify my opinions.
Please look forward to future replays where I really test this out (I don't play a lot of SC, around 5-10 games a day average, so please be patient hehe). I will also gladly take advice from any player of any level.
Thanks!
／l、
（ﾟ､ ｡ ７
l、 ~ヽ
じしf_, )ノ
 
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Seems pretty nice and very reasonable. The main problem IMO is deciding when to move out with ur army in order to hit the window properly (which is before BC's come out). Once a couple BC's are out, it will be very very hard to be able to come back. How do you usualy time ur main attack?
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This is a good thread, you could have put this in sc2 strat it would have been better than 90% of the threads there. I don't have much to add, I don't play all that much sc2 but 5/5, the kitty at the end is sick
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On February 23 2011 04:05 n.DieJokes wrote:
This is a good thread, you could have put this in sc2 strat it would have been better than 90% of the threads there. I don't have much to add, I don't play all that much sc2 but 5/5, the kitty at the end is sick
he speaks the truth. This would help a lot of people who are struggling to the sudden surge of BF hellion Banshee plays.
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Isn't there some way to make use of a 2 port 2 rax marauder viking strategy to beat it? I mean I think if you are playing standard there should be a way to get the air superiority against an iEchoic player, since you will easily take ground with early marauders against those hellions.
Just a thought. I think the iEchoic build is almost specifically tailored to exploit what was very typical play in TvT, marines tanks and medivacs/vikings. Banshee viking hellion is pretty buff versus that, so why not notice they are doing iEchoic and switch dramtically to mostly only marauders and having a huge advantage in the air, 2 starports with reactors pumping vikings. As long as you pump the vikings and have air superiority you should be able to slowly build up the tank army you want.
Either way, I think the OP's goal is a little misguided. The idea of still stubbornly going tanks when your opponent goes banshees with no bio, I dunno, what purpose do the tanks now serve?
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United States4126 Posts
....∧∧ ／￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣
...(,,ﾟДﾟ)＜ Have you seen the D9D on this build?
..⊂ ⊃ ＼＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿
～ | .. |
. ..し .`J
There was one game where iEchoic was playing his teammate and his opponent did a pretty strong marauder timing attack that looked like it had some potential. It was probably premeditated as he knew iEchoic's style but it looks like a solid counter if it gets refined.
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Is there some reason you can't just make thors against this build? I must be missing something.
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On February 23 2011 06:16 Turgid wrote:
Is there some reason you can't just make thors against this build? I must be missing something.
The point is that if you go Thorheavy he'll just swap to BC's. Go check the thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189624
Edit: That is in the lategame ofc. Check the flowchart in the thread!
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Well, look at game 1 of Code S group A to see an effective blind counter to that build. Honestly it's not that unbeatable.
EDIT: At least Tasteosis led me to believe that is the build you're referring to.
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On February 23 2011 06:24 Finskie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 06:16 Turgid wrote:
Is there some reason you can't just make thors against this build? I must be missing something. The point is that if you go Thorheavy he'll just swap to BC's. Go check the thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189624Edit: That is in the lategame ofc. Check the flowchart in the thread!
I guess I'm gonna go find some replays of someone doing things with thors and losing to BCs because my mind is kind of blown that that's the answer. Oh yeah if he gets thors just make a fusion core and get enough BCs. What?
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I've personally found that pushing immediately after the blue flame hellion drop hits can usually do a lot of damage. If you send the tanks in first with the marines a significant distance behind you can usually clean up the hellions without any losses and then deal with whatever air units he might have. I haven't tried this against top tier players or anything though so it may or may not be viable at higher levels of play.
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On February 23 2011 06:38 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 06:24 Finskie wrote:On February 23 2011 06:16 Turgid wrote:
Is there some reason you can't just make thors against this build? I must be missing something. The point is that if you go Thorheavy he'll just swap to BC's. Go check the thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189624Edit: That is in the lategame ofc. Check the flowchart in the thread! I guess I'm gonna go find some replays of someone doing things with thors and losing to BCs because my mind is kind of blown that that's the answer. Oh yeah if he gets thors just make a fusion core and get enough BCs. What?
Well from what i've understood from reading iEchoic's post, is that if your opponent starts out with Thors you need to break his first push with everything you have and do as much economic damage with your Helions as possible in his main. As he says, it's the best opening vs his build.
Should your opponent go for Thors later on in the game when you have a high number of Banshees you should swap over to BC's. I did not mean that you should go 1 base BC's just because your opponent opened Thor if that's what it sounded like :p
Edit: Go download his replaypack and watch the game vs Perplexity.
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Very nice OP. But the replay provided is hilarious if you want to use it as an example... You asked the player before the game to use IEchoic build. With that knowledge, of course you can beat the build hands down. You put up soo many turrets, you built only tanks, and you FE because you knew what he was doing... Oh, and what a coincidence, you saved 6 scans for your push ...
Plus the replay is not even a ladder match, so we all know customs don't really make us play to our full potential....
TL;DR This isn't viable because a simple bio army would have decimated your open. I completely agree with you in the case this is viable, only if you know your opponent is going to use IEchoic build to the T. If you disagree, please provide a replay where this works, on a ladder match, and you scout the IEchoic build at proper timings.
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On February 23 2011 07:25 Finskie wrote:
Edit: Go download his replaypack and watch the game vs Perplexity.
Definitely gonna do that. I don't play Terran so the reasons why people are having such trouble with this build are interesting to me.
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On February 23 2011 04:05 n.DieJokes wrote:
This is a good thread, you could have put this in sc2 strat it would have been better than 90% of the threads there. I don't have much to add, I don't play all that much sc2 but 5/5, the kitty at the end is sick
Thanks!
On February 23 2011 03:47 ScrubS wrote:
Seems pretty nice and very reasonable. The main problem IMO is deciding when to move out with ur army in order to hit the window properly (which is before BC's come out). Once a couple BC's are out, it will be very very hard to be able to come back. How do you usualy time ur main attack?
Scans and scouting with vikings would be quite crucial. As I said, I just attacked on a whim. Once I had a big enough army, I decided it was time to push out. It also felt just long enough that the opponent would be transitioning to BC's or saturating a 3rd.
On February 23 2011 06:13 Kinky wrote:
....∧∧ ／￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣￣
...(,,ﾟДﾟ)＜ Have you seen the D9D on this build?
..⊂ ⊃ ＼＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿
～ | .. |
. ..し .`J
There was one game where iEchoic was playing his teammate and his opponent did a pretty strong marauder timing attack that looked like it had some potential. It was probably premeditated as he knew iEchoic's style but it looks like a solid counter if it gets refined.
I haven't yet seen the Day[9] daily on it, I am going to look at it when I have time though, thanks.
On February 23 2011 06:38 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 06:24 Finskie wrote:On February 23 2011 06:16 Turgid wrote:
Is there some reason you can't just make thors against this build? I must be missing something. The point is that if you go Thorheavy he'll just swap to BC's. Go check the thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189624Edit: That is in the lategame ofc. Check the flowchart in the thread! I guess I'm gonna go find some replays of someone doing things with thors and losing to BCs because my mind is kind of blown that that's the answer. Oh yeah if he gets thors just make a fusion core and get enough BCs. What?
Yep, the first time I encountered this build I went thors, and lost to BC's and yamato cannon. (Its briefly explained in the OP).
On February 23 2011 04:30 Aberu wrote:
Isn't there some way to make use of a 2 port 2 rax marauder viking strategy to beat it? I mean I think if you are playing standard there should be a way to get the air superiority against an iEchoic player, since you will easily take ground with early marauders against those hellions.
Just a thought. I think the iEchoic build is almost specifically tailored to exploit what was very typical play in TvT, marines tanks and medivacs/vikings. Banshee viking hellion is pretty buff versus that, so why not notice they are doing iEchoic and switch dramtically to mostly only marauders and having a huge advantage in the air, 2 starports with reactors pumping vikings. As long as you pump the vikings and have air superiority you should be able to slowly build up the tank army you want.
Either way, I think the OP's goal is a little misguided. The idea of still stubbornly going tanks when your opponent goes banshees with no bio, I dunno, what purpose do the tanks now serve?
The composition is not that important, the important point is the sim city and viking/turret timing. I just like to use mech because its my standard TvT composition, I use it against bio, bio/mech, everything.
I can't think of any normal situation where 2 barrack 2 star would be that effective. I have often seen 3 barrack 1 star MMM off an FE though.
Tank Viking is a very normal TvT composition, I don't see what's wrong with this. Tanks are extremely effective vs hellions, vikings against banshees. Tech switches are expensive, you have to consider time not only cost. You can see that I didn't do a tech switch, nor would I ever have to, its tank viking.
On February 23 2011 10:29 MrRicewife wrote:
Very nice OP. But the replay provided is hilarious if you want to use it as an example... You asked the player before the game to use IEchoic build. With that knowledge, of course you can beat the build hands down. You put up soo many turrets, you built only tanks, and you FE because you knew what he was doing... Oh, and what a coincidence, you saved 6 scans for your push ...
Plus the replay is not even a ladder match, so we all know customs don't really make us play to our full potential....
TL;DR This isn't viable because a simple bio army would have decimated your open. I completely agree with you in the case this is viable, only if you know your opponent is going to use IEchoic build to the T. If you disagree, please provide a replay where this works, on a ladder match, and you scout the IEchoic build at proper timings.
Exactly. I know this, and I have admitted this in the OP. Which is why it is not in the strategy forum yet. I already I said I'm planning on doing this, the only problem is I don't play many ladder games (or many games at all for that matter), so I have yet to see this more than once.
I have to get ladder replays where I don't know what the opponent is doing. The point is to consider specific points such as the sim city, which you can do in any old TvT game, doesn't matter what the opponent is doing. The problem is people didn't know what to do against the hellion harass.
I also scouted double gas 1 rax 1 fact, which means I don't have to worry about fast bunkers or any sort of defense and can cut corners. I also forgot 13 gas which led to a much later factory.
2 fact 1 star is my standard opening, its not some sort of special opening tailored to counter this build, thats what I am trying to accomplish, not having to use some unorthodox strat to beat this build.
I have been doing fine against bio so far, in fact I have been doing fine against every style of play with it. Even against cheesy drops, eventually I end up just out macroing in the end and bio becomes pretty useless once you have a critical mass of tanks and anti-air.
By the time I save scans for my push anyone would know what the opponents build is.
The main thing I want to find out is the best time to scan, to know exactly if this build is being used. Its a very distinct build, so once you find out, its easy to know what's up.
But thanks for your input. 
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EPT
