EPTWho is right??? - Page 2
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Chef
10810 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 28 2010 03:38 Puosu wrote: You must have a huge reputation of being a cheeser if you NEVER see a 14hatch, it might not be the most popular at this moment because of the numerous ways a protoss can punish the zerg for being greedy but especially in four player maps its still widely used. High level play is in a rather sad state if a standard macro opening has become an all-in or a cheese. Just because it's widely used doesn't mean that it's not bad. Pool first is better against toss every time, except perhaps on shakuras where the gamble often pays off. It's kinda like 14CC vs Protoss in BW - safe in some positions but most times it just dies to an all in. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
As for the word "Cheese" cheese implies hiding information with no backup plan all in. 14 hatch is very easy to scout and has a backup plan. 14 hatch is just bad against protoss in general. | ||
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RyuChus
Canada442 Posts
What you did. Is considered all-in. Seriously I don't understand how you think that 14 hatch is all-in. It's the most standard build for zerg, regardless of match up. What were you even expecting when you faced him? Like a 7rr? What were you expecting? 14 hatch isn't cheese at all! No. Not close. Also the conversation is stupid and he is right, even if there was some bm. | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
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NIIINO
Slovakia1320 Posts
im not saying it just because i failed on 6pool by Welmu but MetalMarek is right 14 hatch is not cheese / all in build. its macro build. what is wrong with you guys ? orly ? 14hatch is all in ? wuuuuuut ? NO ! FUCK NO ! 14 hatch is classy normal macro build. In my opinion 4 gate is not all in too. this build got too much from be called cheese. Proxy 2 gate is cheese, 6pool is cheese but not this ! you who thinks im not right SHAME ON YOU ! | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On December 28 2010 03:31 Welmu wrote: yeah, but the problem is I did exactly like that. 12 Gateway, 14 Forge, cutted probe production, but still lost... was very suprised. I don't open 12gateway vs z.. don't see a point i scout at pylon, and forge or gate at 13, cut probes at 14 (should use both chronoboosts) until u know he is pool first honestly if he is going like 15 or 16hat then pool it should be easy to go forge then gateway and kill his exp with cannons, u just have to be smooth about it | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
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Cofo
United States1388 Posts
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zOula...
United States898 Posts
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JiYan
United States3668 Posts
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eXigent.
Canada2419 Posts
On December 28 2010 03:47 RyuChus wrote: I'm just saying, but 14 hatch is not all-in. It's an early expansion. How is it all-in? It's just a risky thing to do. An all-in say, would be something like a 7rr. An All-in is an ATTACK. An attack where you specifically stop producing workers, and make as many units as you can, and ATTACK, when your opponent does not expect it. 14 hatch is just a risky thing to do, but if done well can get you a nice advantage! It's like Terran, early expand. Like 14 CC in BW. 14 Nexus for Toss. Not all-in just RISKY. What you did. Is considered all-in. Seriously I don't understand how you think that 14 hatch is all-in. It's the most standard build for zerg, regardless of match up. What were you even expecting when you faced him? Like a 7rr? What were you expecting? 14 hatch isn't cheese at all! No. Not close. Also the conversation is stupid and he is right, even if there was some bm. but if you read the discussion from many higher level players, you can clearly see them all agreeing that 14hatch against toss is not the best build at all. Anyone who is skilled and competant will attempt to cannon rush a zerg who 14/15hatches. Most toss have that mentality as soon as the game starts. Its not like they just decide to cannon you. If they see the 14/15hatch they already have the cannon rushed planned. Thus, 14/15 hatching is very very risky (especially on blistering sands with the backdoor rocks) Lastly, if you think about it, 14/15hatching against toss is sort of all-in, because if you lose that hatchery to cannons, you are going to lose this game hands down. Its 50/50, either you lose the hatch to cannons and lose the game, or you dont lose the hatch to cannons, and come out possibly even or ahead. Thats how an allin works, it either wins you the game, or loses you the game. | ||
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forgotten0ne
United States951 Posts
I want to end the game here, so I'm going to build... A HATCHERY! Rofl, you guys make me laugh. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
On December 28 2010 03:53 NIIINO wrote: Mr. MetalMarek is right im not saying it just because i failed on 6pool by Welmu but MetalMarek is right 14 hatch is not cheese / all in build. its macro build. what is wrong with you guys ? orly ? 14hatch is all in ? wuuuuuut ? NO ! FUCK NO ! 14 hatch is classy normal macro build. In my opinion 4 gate is not all in too. this build got too much from be called cheese. Proxy 2 gate is cheese, 6pool is cheese but not this ! you who thinks im not right SHAME ON YOU ! you're missing the point completely.. 14hatch = macro build which is vunerable, therefor if you lose going 14hatch and not scouting what is coming, you have NO RIGHT to bitch about cheese like this MetalMarek idiot did. Its like going 20 nexus everygame, nothing else but pylons and probes, and if your opponent comes into your base with any sort of unit before then and hurts you, you go "OMG you suck you all-in before my 20nexus nogates is complete, because you know you cant beat me if you let me finish it".. Just flat out retarded that people think that way these days.. Any zerg who 14hatch's should realize its a risk, and if they die because they dont know how to scout or block cannons properly (which any zerg above 2000 should be able to do easily) then they should accept their loss like a man because they tried to be greedy, and got owned for doing it. Metalmarek is WRONG for even opening his newb mouth. | ||
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Stenstyren
Sweden619 Posts
However, these are the standard use of the terms: All-in: An attack that has little to no chance of a follow up unless it does significant damage to the enemy. Often signaled by pulling workers to help the push, one base play etc. Cheese: A tactic that relies on stealth and that will be very hard to execute if discovered. Proxy stuff, DT rushes etc. are cheese, as is cannon rushing. Greedy builds: This is what you are looking for. A tactic that leaves the player very vulnerable but if not countered will give the player a large economical advantage. Can be anything from overproducing drones to triple-expanding after spawning pool. All-in and Cheese are negative things, Greedy builds are usually called "daring" and "smart". So, when you say that the other player went for an all in tactic that's an insult, he thinks he was being daring. As he showed against you, he was good enough to pull it off as well. You went the direct counter to his greedy build and he still managed to win the game. That means that the build was justified and not too greedy at all, he managed to defend it. Also, don't insult a player who you hard-countered and he still won. That's just being stupid (and probably making him laugh). | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
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Grebliv
Iceland800 Posts
On December 28 2010 03:33 Welmu wrote: hmm... Is 14hatch more like cheese then? I can't imagine it as normal play since I almost never face it =P Econ cheese is about the cheesiest definition you can stick to it. Cheese>greed>standard>cheese. The never ending cycle. *aka econ cheese | ||
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ghermination
United States2851 Posts
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SoL[9]
Portugal1370 Posts
Better use the right words. | ||
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NIIINO
Slovakia1320 Posts
you're missing the point completely.. 14hatch = macro build which is vunerable, therefor if you lose going 14hatch and not scouting what is coming, you have NO RIGHT to bitch about cheese like this MetalMarek idiot did. Its like going 20 nexus everygame, nothing else but pylons and probes, and if your opponent comes into your base with any sort of unit before then and hurts you, you go "OMG you suck you all-in before my 20nexus nogates is complete, because you know you cant beat me if you let me finish it".. Just flat out retarded that people think that way these days.. Any zerg who 14hatch's should realize its a risk, and if they die because they dont know how to scout or block cannons properly (which any zerg above 2000 should be able to do easily) then they should accept their loss like a man because they tried to be greedy, and got owned for doing it. Metalmarek is WRONG for even opening his newb mouth. No you missed my point. when you go 14 hatch there is just one build that P can do to WIN on 90% and its 2 gate proxy. You can easily counter cannon as we could see and its easy to counter 4 gate push too. you cant compare 14hatch to fast expand for P its really different. in way that you get your Zerglings faster in 14 hatch than in fast expanding P. 14 Hatching just seems like asking to get 4gated. you can own 4gate with 14hatch if you know about it. and its not too hard predict it. BTW is than Idra cheesing almost every game ? :D i dont get this. Cheeser idra who is called macro zerg ? :D rly? | ||
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all-in
