• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:48
CEST 03:48
KST 10:48
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47
Community News
Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)2BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13
StarCraft 2
General
flash bitcoin software Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2) The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group A [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group B RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
[BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 4 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL19] Grand Finals
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Who’s Getting the Effortless-Chic Look Just Right?
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 17778 users

Who is right??? - Page 2

Blogs > Welmu
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 Next All
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
December 27 2010 18:39 GMT
#21
Why even talk about the game if you're just going to be nasty to each other? I think as soon as two people antagonise each other, there is no hope for intelligent discussion.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-27 18:42:24
December 27 2010 18:40 GMT
#22
Hatch first isn't safe vs toss.... I don't know why you cut probe production though, generally don't you keep making probes then send about 6-7 of them with your first lot to support your pylon (and cannons).

On December 28 2010 03:38 Puosu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2010 03:33 Welmu wrote:
On December 28 2010 03:31 palanq wrote:
hatch first is kinda risky, sure. I'm not sure if it's autolose anything, but blistering actually has pretty long rush distances. Use the term (Wiki)all-in correctly please.

and holy shit you are persistent with those cannons. he is right to say you should have a plan B. there was probably a point where you could have cut your losses and continued with a regular game...

hmm... Is 14hatch more like cheese then? I can't imagine it as normal play since I almost never face it =P

You must have a huge reputation of being a cheeser if you NEVER see a 14hatch, it might not be the most popular at this moment because of the numerous ways a protoss can punish the zerg for being greedy but especially in four player maps its still widely used.

High level play is in a rather sad state if a standard macro opening has become an all-in or a cheese.

Just because it's widely used doesn't mean that it's not bad. Pool first is better against toss every time, except perhaps on shakuras where the gamble often pays off. It's kinda like 14CC vs Protoss in BW - safe in some positions but most times it just dies to an all in.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
December 27 2010 18:46 GMT
#23
I've watched the huk stream and I don't think he's ever lost if he did a cannon rush against a 14 hatch. Execution is your problem.

As for the word "Cheese" cheese implies hiding information with no backup plan all in. 14 hatch is very easy to scout and has a backup plan. 14 hatch is just bad against protoss in general.
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
RyuChus
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada442 Posts
December 27 2010 18:47 GMT
#24
I'm just saying, but 14 hatch is not all-in. It's an early expansion. How is it all-in? It's just a risky thing to do. An all-in say, would be something like a 7rr. An All-in is an ATTACK. An attack where you specifically stop producing workers, and make as many units as you can, and ATTACK, when your opponent does not expect it. 14 hatch is just a risky thing to do, but if done well can get you a nice advantage! It's like Terran, early expand. Like 14 CC in BW. 14 Nexus for Toss. Not all-in just RISKY.

What you did. Is considered all-in. Seriously I don't understand how you think that 14 hatch is all-in. It's the most standard build for zerg, regardless of match up. What were you even expecting when you faced him? Like a 7rr? What were you expecting? 14 hatch isn't cheese at all! No. Not close.

Also the conversation is stupid and he is right, even if there was some bm.
I have an announcement to make, "Moo!" That is all.
intrigue
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
December 27 2010 18:48 GMT
#25
you use the word "cheese" like a moron. embarrassing, please stop.
Moderatorhttps://soundcloud.com/castlesmusic/sets/oak
NIIINO
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Slovakia1320 Posts
December 27 2010 18:53 GMT
#26
Mr. MetalMarek is right
im not saying it just because i failed on 6pool by Welmu but MetalMarek is right 14 hatch is not cheese / all in build. its macro build.

what is wrong with you guys ? orly ? 14hatch is all in ? wuuuuuut ? NO ! FUCK NO ! 14 hatch is classy normal macro build. In my opinion 4 gate is not all in too. this build got too much from be called cheese.
Proxy 2 gate is cheese, 6pool is cheese but not this !
you who thinks im not right SHAME ON YOU !
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-27 19:02:23
December 27 2010 18:58 GMT
#27
On December 28 2010 03:31 Welmu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2010 03:29 travis wrote:
u can't defend cannons with hatch first

you didn't use the cannons correctly

sorry im not gonna bother watching the replay

next time cut probes at 14 and just keep making cannons nonstop
put them in spots where drones cant get full surrounds on them


the conversation is stupid btw

yeah, but the problem is I did exactly like that. 12 Gateway, 14 Forge, cutted probe production, but still lost... was very suprised.


I don't open 12gateway vs z.. don't see a point

i scout at pylon, and forge or gate at 13, cut probes at 14 (should use both chronoboosts) until u know he is pool first

honestly if he is going like 15 or 16hat then pool it should be easy to go forge then gateway and kill his exp with cannons, u just have to be smooth about it
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
December 27 2010 19:05 GMT
#28
Everyone forgot the meaning of "cheese", "all-in" and "timing push" this drives me insane warghhh.
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
Cofo
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1388 Posts
December 27 2010 19:11 GMT
#29
All-ins are risky, but not everything that is risky (i.e. hatch first) is an all-in.
+ Show Spoiler +
zOula...
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States898 Posts
December 27 2010 19:34 GMT
#30
this thread makes my head hurt. oh and your BM opponent was clearly right.
JiYan
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3668 Posts
December 27 2010 19:50 GMT
#31
imo 14hatch isnt really a cheese or an all in, but i dont think you can call it a "solid standard macro play" move. its just being risky. its like not making obs and not scouting in pvp. its not cheesy or all in, its just risky.
eXigent.
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Canada2419 Posts
December 27 2010 20:25 GMT
#32
On December 28 2010 03:47 RyuChus wrote:
I'm just saying, but 14 hatch is not all-in. It's an early expansion. How is it all-in? It's just a risky thing to do. An all-in say, would be something like a 7rr. An All-in is an ATTACK. An attack where you specifically stop producing workers, and make as many units as you can, and ATTACK, when your opponent does not expect it. 14 hatch is just a risky thing to do, but if done well can get you a nice advantage! It's like Terran, early expand. Like 14 CC in BW. 14 Nexus for Toss. Not all-in just RISKY.

What you did. Is considered all-in. Seriously I don't understand how you think that 14 hatch is all-in. It's the most standard build for zerg, regardless of match up. What were you even expecting when you faced him? Like a 7rr? What were you expecting? 14 hatch isn't cheese at all! No. Not close.

Also the conversation is stupid and he is right, even if there was some bm.


but if you read the discussion from many higher level players, you can clearly see them all agreeing that 14hatch against toss is not the best build at all. Anyone who is skilled and competant will attempt to cannon rush a zerg who 14/15hatches. Most toss have that mentality as soon as the game starts. Its not like they just decide to cannon you. If they see the 14/15hatch they already have the cannon rushed planned. Thus, 14/15 hatching is very very risky (especially on blistering sands with the backdoor rocks)

Lastly, if you think about it, 14/15hatching against toss is sort of all-in, because if you lose that hatchery to cannons, you are going to lose this game hands down. Its 50/50, either you lose the hatch to cannons and lose the game, or you dont lose the hatch to cannons, and come out possibly even or ahead. Thats how an allin works, it either wins you the game, or loses you the game.
forgotten0ne
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States951 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-27 20:29:59
December 27 2010 20:28 GMT
#33
Isn't Hatch first the opposite of an all-in, rofl?

I want to end the game here, so I'm going to build... A HATCHERY!

Rofl, you guys make me laugh.
"Well it’s obvious that these Terran gamers are just extremely gifted when it comes to RTS games" -Ret, in regards to the first months of SC2
Skyze
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada2324 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-27 20:43:20
December 27 2010 20:41 GMT
#34
On December 28 2010 03:53 NIIINO wrote:
Mr. MetalMarek is right
im not saying it just because i failed on 6pool by Welmu but MetalMarek is right 14 hatch is not cheese / all in build. its macro build.

what is wrong with you guys ? orly ? 14hatch is all in ? wuuuuuut ? NO ! FUCK NO ! 14 hatch is classy normal macro build. In my opinion 4 gate is not all in too. this build got too much from be called cheese.
Proxy 2 gate is cheese, 6pool is cheese but not this !
you who thinks im not right SHAME ON YOU !


you're missing the point completely.. 14hatch = macro build which is vunerable, therefor if you lose going 14hatch and not scouting what is coming, you have NO RIGHT to bitch about cheese like this MetalMarek idiot did.

Its like going 20 nexus everygame, nothing else but pylons and probes, and if your opponent comes into your base with any sort of unit before then and hurts you, you go "OMG you suck you all-in before my 20nexus nogates is complete, because you know you cant beat me if you let me finish it".. Just flat out retarded that people think that way these days..

Any zerg who 14hatch's should realize its a risk, and if they die because they dont know how to scout or block cannons properly (which any zerg above 2000 should be able to do easily) then they should accept their loss like a man because they tried to be greedy, and got owned for doing it.

Metalmarek is WRONG for even opening his newb mouth.
Canada Gaming ~~ The-Feared
Stenstyren
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden619 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-27 20:46:33
December 27 2010 20:45 GMT
#35
You could call a 14 hatch all-in, since it is a high risk build that has to pay off for it to be beneficial.

However, these are the standard use of the terms:

All-in: An attack that has little to no chance of a follow up unless it does significant damage to the enemy. Often signaled by pulling workers to help the push, one base play etc.

Cheese: A tactic that relies on stealth and that will be very hard to execute if discovered. Proxy stuff, DT rushes etc. are cheese, as is cannon rushing.

Greedy builds: This is what you are looking for. A tactic that leaves the player very vulnerable but if not countered will give the player a large economical advantage. Can be anything from overproducing drones to triple-expanding after spawning pool.

All-in and Cheese are negative things, Greedy builds are usually called "daring" and "smart". So, when you say that the other player went for an all in tactic that's an insult, he thinks he was being daring.
As he showed against you, he was good enough to pull it off as well. You went the direct counter to his greedy build and he still managed to win the game. That means that the build was justified and not too greedy at all, he managed to defend it.

Also, don't insult a player who you hard-countered and he still won. That's just being stupid (and probably making him laugh).
MoreFaSho
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1427 Posts
December 27 2010 20:46 GMT
#36
Points of correct, 2 gate standard does not counter hatch-first from zerg, but 2 gate proxy-gate might, but that's it's own gamble. Even gate first with forge added counters hatch first, but it might not after patch. That being said, it's not impossible to hold against gateway followed by forge, but your micro has to be spot on and theirs not as good... After the patch with no mineral walking it might be possible though, hard to say, will certainly be less risky, but probably still very risky.
I always try to shield slam face, just to make sure it doesnt work
Grebliv
Profile Joined May 2006
Iceland800 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-27 20:48:11
December 27 2010 20:46 GMT
#37
On December 28 2010 03:33 Welmu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 28 2010 03:31 palanq wrote:
hatch first is kinda risky, sure. I'm not sure if it's autolose anything, but blistering actually has pretty long rush distances. Use the term (Wiki)all-in correctly please.

and holy shit you are persistent with those cannons. he is right to say you should have a plan B. there was probably a point where you could have cut your losses and continued with a regular game...

hmm... Is 14hatch more like cheese then? I can't imagine it as normal play since I almost never face it =P


Econ cheese is about the cheesiest definition you can stick to it.

Cheese>greed>standard>cheese. The never ending cycle.




*aka econ cheese
ESV Mapmaking!
ghermination
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States2851 Posts
December 27 2010 20:47 GMT
#38
While 14 hatch isn't exactly cheese, it's definitely a risky build. 14 Hatching just seems like asking to get 4gated.
U Gotta Skate.
SoL[9]
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Portugal1370 Posts
December 27 2010 21:09 GMT
#39
Stupid chat and funny. Nice blog make me laugh.
Better use the right words.
I Can Fly...
NIIINO
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Slovakia1320 Posts
December 27 2010 21:14 GMT
#40
+ Show Spoiler +
you're missing the point completely.. 14hatch = macro build which is vunerable, therefor if you lose going 14hatch and not scouting what is coming, you have NO RIGHT to bitch about cheese like this MetalMarek idiot did.

Its like going 20 nexus everygame, nothing else but pylons and probes, and if your opponent comes into your base with any sort of unit before then and hurts you, you go "OMG you suck you all-in before my 20nexus nogates is complete, because you know you cant beat me if you let me finish it".. Just flat out retarded that people think that way these days..

Any zerg who 14hatch's should realize its a risk, and if they die because they dont know how to scout or block cannons properly (which any zerg above 2000 should be able to do easily) then they should accept their loss like a man because they tried to be greedy, and got owned for doing it.

Metalmarek is WRONG for even opening his newb mouth.


No you missed my point.
when you go 14 hatch there is just one build that P can do to WIN on 90% and its 2 gate proxy.
You can easily counter cannon as we could see and its easy to counter 4 gate push too.
you cant compare 14hatch to fast expand for P its really different. in way that you get your Zerglings faster in 14 hatch than in fast expanding P.

14 Hatching just seems like asking to get 4gated.

you can own 4gate with 14hatch if you know about it. and its not too hard predict it.

BTW is than Idra cheesing almost every game ? :D i dont get this. Cheeser idra who is called macro zerg ? :D rly?
Prev 1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
00:00
OSC Elite Rising Star #15
LunaSea vs BabymarineLIVE!
Mixu vs Moja
ArT vs INexorable
HiGhDrA vs Shameless
TBD vs ArT
xJustxJordanx3
Liquipedia
Replay Cast
00:00
uThermal 2v2 Circuit: May
CranKy Ducklings87
Liquipedia
OSC
21:00
Mid Season Playoffs
ArT vs ReBellioN
HonMonO vs Ziomek
Shameless vs LunaSea
MilkiCow vs GgMaChine
Moja vs HiGhDrA
Jumy vs TBD
Demi vs NightPhoenix
Solar vs Cham
SteadfastSC164
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft371
SteadfastSC164
RuFF_SC2 135
Nina 20
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 760
Sharp 101
Icarus 10
Dota 2
monkeys_forever446
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K680
taco 576
Other Games
summit1g11758
tarik_tv6034
C9.Mang02483
shahzam1184
ViBE257
ToD126
UpATreeSC70
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream211
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH276
• Hupsaiya 65
• davetesta29
• HeavenSC 21
• practicex 1
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 11
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift6550
Other Games
• Scarra1279
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Invitational
9h 13m
HiGhDrA vs Nicoract
MaNa vs HiGhDrA
HiGhDrA vs Reynor
Nicoract vs Reynor
MaNa vs Nicoract
MaNa vs Reynor
MaxPax vs Spirit
Krystianer vs Spirit
OSC
11h 13m
BSL 2v2 ProLeague S3
17h 13m
Korean StarCraft League
1d 1h
SOOP
1d 7h
sOs vs Percival
CranKy Ducklings
1d 8h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 9h
Cheesadelphia
1d 13h
CSO Cup
1d 15h
BSL: ProLeague
1d 16h
Hawk vs UltrA
Sziky vs spx
TerrOr vs JDConan
[ Show More ]
GSL Code S
2 days
Rogue vs herO
Classic vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
BSL: ProLeague
2 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
Cross vs Doodle
MadiNho vs Dragon
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
5 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Serral vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.