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14 Hatch is a standard Zerg opening, it's not cheese or all-in at all.
I will say this is solely based on the conversation though. Bout to watch it.
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It isn't his decision to risk his economy by doing some sort of cheese. You are.
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why do you even have convos with people like that? ESPECIALLY a first line like that -> block player
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Yeah, I don't see why you care.. this zerg doesn't seem like he's worth the keystrokes to me.
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Calgary25981 Posts
I like when I lose and people message me to rub it in. Instantly block.
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On December 28 2010 03:27 Tuneful wrote:
Yeah, I don't see why you care.. this zerg doesn't seem like he's worth the keystrokes to me.
Well, I just want to be sure, if 14hatch is all-in or not so I know how to respond better :>
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u can't defend cannons with hatch first
you didn't use the cannons correctly
sorry im not gonna bother watching the replay
next time cut probes at 14 and just keep making cannons nonstop
put them in spots where drones cant get full surrounds on them
the conversation is stupid btw
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Wait... so the point you are trying to make is that hatch first is all-in? If that is the case then I think you are absolutely wrong. Hatch first might be risky but that does not define it as all-in. I think your definition of what is an all-in is the major issue, there is a difference between going 14 hatch and pulling all your scvs for a two rax marine push.
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You're wrong. 14 hatch is not all in.
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hatch first vs protoss isn't allin, it's just bad, and loses every time to forge first from a good player
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hatch first is kinda risky, sure. I'm not sure if it's autolose anything, but blistering actually has pretty long rush distances. Use the term  all-in correctly please.
and holy shit you are persistent with those cannons. he is right to say you should have a plan B. there was probably a point where you could have cut your losses and continued with a regular game...
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On December 28 2010 03:29 travis wrote:
u can't defend cannons with hatch first
you didn't use the cannons correctly
sorry im not gonna bother watching the replay
next time cut probes at 14 and just keep making cannons nonstop
put them in spots where drones cant get full surrounds on them
the conversation is stupid btw
yeah, but the problem is I did exactly like that. 12 Gateway, 14 Forge, cutted probe production, but still lost... was very suprised.
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On December 28 2010 03:29 travis wrote:
u can't defend cannons with hatch first
you didn't use the cannons correctly
sorry im not gonna bother watching the replay
next time cut probes at 14 and just keep making cannons nonstop
put them in spots where drones cant get full surrounds on them
the conversation is stupid btw
From what I saw on Blistering, it's pretty hard to get Cannons in a good spot to hit the Hatch without risking a good surround. There is a lot of open space behind the mineral lines and anywhere else is just asking for a surround.
It was Protoss-T, Zerg-B.
He had to rebuild his Pylon and cancel his first 2 cannons and wasn't getting Probes during the whole thing (well, you say you shouldn't, but it would've helped him in this case because Zerg wasn't really producing anything, although he could've just gotten Lings when his Pool went up...), which would've put him ahead because the Zerg pulled a ton of Drones and stopped producing for some reason. Yet he continued, even after the creep spread from the Hatch while not doing anything in his base. Except one Zealot that could've done a little more damage but was mis-microed a tad.
It was just sloppy.
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On December 28 2010 03:31 palanq wrote:hatch first is kinda risky, sure. I'm not sure if it's autolose anything, but blistering actually has pretty long rush distances. Use the term all-in correctly please. and holy shit you are persistent with those cannons. he is right to say you should have a plan B. there was probably a point where you could have cut your losses and continued with a regular game...
hmm... Is 14hatch more like cheese then? I can't imagine it as normal play since I almost never face it =P
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STOP USING THE TERM ALL-IN WRONG.
All-in is an attack, ONLY.
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On December 28 2010 03:33 Welmu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 03:31 palanq wrote:hatch first is kinda risky, sure. I'm not sure if it's autolose anything, but blistering actually has pretty long rush distances. Use the term all-in correctly please. and holy shit you are persistent with those cannons. he is right to say you should have a plan B. there was probably a point where you could have cut your losses and continued with a regular game... hmm... Is 14hatch more like cheese then? I can't imagine it as normal play since I almost never face it =P
...
It's a lot safer to Pool/Gas first in PvT, but Hatch first is very strong on maps with large rush distances because it takes longer for you to be able to respond.
That and it doesn't seem like BS is good for building cannons safely.
It's not cheese or an all-in, it's just a really greedy build and can be punished with fast aggression.
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Well hatch first isn't an all-in build if you ask me, but that guy is still the dick in the conversation. You weren't exactly a nice guy but at least your comments were in response to his. In my mind, the person who initiates BM is the bigger dick.
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On December 28 2010 03:33 Welmu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 03:31 palanq wrote:hatch first is kinda risky, sure. I'm not sure if it's autolose anything, but blistering actually has pretty long rush distances. Use the term all-in correctly please. and holy shit you are persistent with those cannons. he is right to say you should have a plan B. there was probably a point where you could have cut your losses and continued with a regular game... hmm... Is 14hatch more like cheese then? I can't imagine it as normal play since I almost never face it =P
You must have a huge reputation of being a cheeser if you NEVER see a 14hatch, it might not be the most popular at this moment because of the numerous ways a protoss can punish the zerg for being greedy but especially in four player maps its still widely used.
High level play is in a rather sad state if a standard macro opening has become an all-in or a cheese.
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While I agree 14hatch is hard to defend, its in no way an all in. It's just a risky opening against toss
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Why even talk about the game if you're just going to be nasty to each other? I think as soon as two people antagonise each other, there is no hope for intelligent discussion.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Hatch first isn't safe vs toss.... I don't know why you cut probe production though, generally don't you keep making probes then send about 6-7 of them with your first lot to support your pylon (and cannons).
On December 28 2010 03:38 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 03:33 Welmu wrote:On December 28 2010 03:31 palanq wrote:hatch first is kinda risky, sure. I'm not sure if it's autolose anything, but blistering actually has pretty long rush distances. Use the term all-in correctly please. and holy shit you are persistent with those cannons. he is right to say you should have a plan B. there was probably a point where you could have cut your losses and continued with a regular game... hmm... Is 14hatch more like cheese then? I can't imagine it as normal play since I almost never face it =P You must have a huge reputation of being a cheeser if you NEVER see a 14hatch, it might not be the most popular at this moment because of the numerous ways a protoss can punish the zerg for being greedy but especially in four player maps its still widely used. High level play is in a rather sad state if a standard macro opening has become an all-in or a cheese.
Just because it's widely used doesn't mean that it's not bad. Pool first is better against toss every time, except perhaps on shakuras where the gamble often pays off. It's kinda like 14CC vs Protoss in BW - safe in some positions but most times it just dies to an all in.
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I've watched the huk stream and I don't think he's ever lost if he did a cannon rush against a 14 hatch. Execution is your problem.
As for the word "Cheese" cheese implies hiding information with no backup plan all in. 14 hatch is very easy to scout and has a backup plan. 14 hatch is just bad against protoss in general.
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I'm just saying, but 14 hatch is not all-in. It's an early expansion. How is it all-in? It's just a risky thing to do. An all-in say, would be something like a 7rr. An All-in is an ATTACK. An attack where you specifically stop producing workers, and make as many units as you can, and ATTACK, when your opponent does not expect it. 14 hatch is just a risky thing to do, but if done well can get you a nice advantage! It's like Terran, early expand. Like 14 CC in BW. 14 Nexus for Toss. Not all-in just RISKY.
What you did. Is considered all-in. Seriously I don't understand how you think that 14 hatch is all-in. It's the most standard build for zerg, regardless of match up. What were you even expecting when you faced him? Like a 7rr? What were you expecting? 14 hatch isn't cheese at all! No. Not close.
Also the conversation is stupid and he is right, even if there was some bm.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
you use the word "cheese" like a moron. embarrassing, please stop.
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Mr. MetalMarek is right
im not saying it just because i failed on 6pool by Welmu but MetalMarek is right 14 hatch is not cheese / all in build. its macro build.
what is wrong with you guys ? orly ? 14hatch is all in ? wuuuuuut ? NO ! FUCK NO ! 14 hatch is classy normal macro build. In my opinion 4 gate is not all in too. this build got too much from be called cheese.
Proxy 2 gate is cheese, 6pool is cheese but not this !
you who thinks im not right SHAME ON YOU !
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On December 28 2010 03:31 Welmu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 03:29 travis wrote:
u can't defend cannons with hatch first
you didn't use the cannons correctly
sorry im not gonna bother watching the replay
next time cut probes at 14 and just keep making cannons nonstop
put them in spots where drones cant get full surrounds on them
the conversation is stupid btw yeah, but the problem is I did exactly like that. 12 Gateway, 14 Forge, cutted probe production, but still lost... was very suprised.
I don't open 12gateway vs z.. don't see a point
i scout at pylon, and forge or gate at 13, cut probes at 14 (should use both chronoboosts) until u know he is pool first
honestly if he is going like 15 or 16hat then pool it should be easy to go forge then gateway and kill his exp with cannons, u just have to be smooth about it
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Everyone forgot the meaning of "cheese", "all-in" and "timing push" this drives me insane warghhh.
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All-ins are risky, but not everything that is risky (i.e. hatch first) is an all-in.
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this thread makes my head hurt. oh and your BM opponent was clearly right.
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imo 14hatch isnt really a cheese or an all in, but i dont think you can call it a "solid standard macro play" move. its just being risky. its like not making obs and not scouting in pvp. its not cheesy or all in, its just risky.
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On December 28 2010 03:47 RyuChus wrote:
I'm just saying, but 14 hatch is not all-in. It's an early expansion. How is it all-in? It's just a risky thing to do. An all-in say, would be something like a 7rr. An All-in is an ATTACK. An attack where you specifically stop producing workers, and make as many units as you can, and ATTACK, when your opponent does not expect it. 14 hatch is just a risky thing to do, but if done well can get you a nice advantage! It's like Terran, early expand. Like 14 CC in BW. 14 Nexus for Toss. Not all-in just RISKY.
What you did. Is considered all-in. Seriously I don't understand how you think that 14 hatch is all-in. It's the most standard build for zerg, regardless of match up. What were you even expecting when you faced him? Like a 7rr? What were you expecting? 14 hatch isn't cheese at all! No. Not close.
Also the conversation is stupid and he is right, even if there was some bm.
but if you read the discussion from many higher level players, you can clearly see them all agreeing that 14hatch against toss is not the best build at all. Anyone who is skilled and competant will attempt to cannon rush a zerg who 14/15hatches. Most toss have that mentality as soon as the game starts. Its not like they just decide to cannon you. If they see the 14/15hatch they already have the cannon rushed planned. Thus, 14/15 hatching is very very risky (especially on blistering sands with the backdoor rocks)
Lastly, if you think about it, 14/15hatching against toss is sort of all-in, because if you lose that hatchery to cannons, you are going to lose this game hands down. Its 50/50, either you lose the hatch to cannons and lose the game, or you dont lose the hatch to cannons, and come out possibly even or ahead. Thats how an allin works, it either wins you the game, or loses you the game.
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Isn't Hatch first the opposite of an all-in, rofl?
I want to end the game here, so I'm going to build... A HATCHERY!
Rofl, you guys make me laugh.
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On December 28 2010 03:53 NIIINO wrote:
Mr. MetalMarek is right
im not saying it just because i failed on 6pool by Welmu but MetalMarek is right 14 hatch is not cheese / all in build. its macro build.
what is wrong with you guys ? orly ? 14hatch is all in ? wuuuuuut ? NO ! FUCK NO ! 14 hatch is classy normal macro build. In my opinion 4 gate is not all in too. this build got too much from be called cheese.
Proxy 2 gate is cheese, 6pool is cheese but not this !
you who thinks im not right SHAME ON YOU !
you're missing the point completely.. 14hatch = macro build which is vunerable, therefor if you lose going 14hatch and not scouting what is coming, you have NO RIGHT to bitch about cheese like this MetalMarek idiot did.
Its like going 20 nexus everygame, nothing else but pylons and probes, and if your opponent comes into your base with any sort of unit before then and hurts you, you go "OMG you suck you all-in before my 20nexus nogates is complete, because you know you cant beat me if you let me finish it".. Just flat out retarded that people think that way these days..
Any zerg who 14hatch's should realize its a risk, and if they die because they dont know how to scout or block cannons properly (which any zerg above 2000 should be able to do easily) then they should accept their loss like a man because they tried to be greedy, and got owned for doing it.
Metalmarek is WRONG for even opening his newb mouth.
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You could call a 14 hatch all-in, since it is a high risk build that has to pay off for it to be beneficial.
However, these are the standard use of the terms:
All-in: An attack that has little to no chance of a follow up unless it does significant damage to the enemy. Often signaled by pulling workers to help the push, one base play etc.
Cheese: A tactic that relies on stealth and that will be very hard to execute if discovered. Proxy stuff, DT rushes etc. are cheese, as is cannon rushing.
Greedy builds: This is what you are looking for. A tactic that leaves the player very vulnerable but if not countered will give the player a large economical advantage. Can be anything from overproducing drones to triple-expanding after spawning pool.
All-in and Cheese are negative things, Greedy builds are usually called "daring" and "smart". So, when you say that the other player went for an all in tactic that's an insult, he thinks he was being daring.
As he showed against you, he was good enough to pull it off as well. You went the direct counter to his greedy build and he still managed to win the game. That means that the build was justified and not too greedy at all, he managed to defend it.
Also, don't insult a player who you hard-countered and he still won. That's just being stupid (and probably making him laugh).
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Points of correct, 2 gate standard does not counter hatch-first from zerg, but 2 gate proxy-gate might, but that's it's own gamble. Even gate first with forge added counters hatch first, but it might not after patch. That being said, it's not impossible to hold against gateway followed by forge, but your micro has to be spot on and theirs not as good... After the patch with no mineral walking it might be possible though, hard to say, will certainly be less risky, but probably still very risky.
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On December 28 2010 03:33 Welmu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 03:31 palanq wrote:hatch first is kinda risky, sure. I'm not sure if it's autolose anything, but blistering actually has pretty long rush distances. Use the term all-in correctly please. and holy shit you are persistent with those cannons. he is right to say you should have a plan B. there was probably a point where you could have cut your losses and continued with a regular game... hmm... Is 14hatch more like cheese then? I can't imagine it as normal play since I almost never face it =P
Econ cheese is about the cheesiest definition you can stick to it.
Cheese>greed>standard>cheese. The never ending cycle.
*aka econ cheese
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While 14 hatch isn't exactly cheese, it's definitely a risky build. 14 Hatching just seems like asking to get 4gated.
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Stupid chat and funny. Nice blog make me laugh.
Better use the right words.
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+ Show Spoiler +you're missing the point completely.. 14hatch = macro build which is vunerable, therefor if you lose going 14hatch and not scouting what is coming, you have NO RIGHT to bitch about cheese like this MetalMarek idiot did.
Its like going 20 nexus everygame, nothing else but pylons and probes, and if your opponent comes into your base with any sort of unit before then and hurts you, you go "OMG you suck you all-in before my 20nexus nogates is complete, because you know you cant beat me if you let me finish it".. Just flat out retarded that people think that way these days..
Any zerg who 14hatch's should realize its a risk, and if they die because they dont know how to scout or block cannons properly (which any zerg above 2000 should be able to do easily) then they should accept their loss like a man because they tried to be greedy, and got owned for doing it.
Metalmarek is WRONG for even opening his newb mouth.
No you missed my point.
when you go 14 hatch there is just one build that P can do to WIN on 90% and its 2 gate proxy.
You can easily counter cannon as we could see and its easy to counter 4 gate push too.
you cant compare 14hatch to fast expand for P its really different. in way that you get your Zerglings faster in 14 hatch than in fast expanding P.
14 Hatching just seems like asking to get 4gated.
you can own 4gate with 14hatch if you know about it. and its not too hard predict it.
BTW is than Idra cheesing almost every game ? :D i dont get this. Cheeser idra who is called macro zerg ? :D rly?
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14 hatch is not a allin at all.
Its a bit risky vs toss, but its not allin.
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On December 28 2010 05:45 Stenstyren wrote:
You could call a 14 hatch all-in, since it is a high risk build that has to pay off for it to be beneficial.
However, these are the standard use of the terms:
All-in: An attack that has little to no chance of a follow up unless it does significant damage to the enemy. Often signaled by pulling workers to help the push, one base play etc.
Cheese: A tactic that relies on stealth and that will be very hard to execute if discovered. Proxy stuff, DT rushes etc. are cheese, as is cannon rushing.
Greedy builds: This is what you are looking for. A tactic that leaves the player very vulnerable but if not countered will give the player a large economical advantage. Can be anything from overproducing drones to triple-expanding after spawning pool.
All-in and Cheese are negative things, Greedy builds are usually called "daring" and "smart". So, when you say that the other player went for an all in tactic that's an insult, he thinks he was being daring.
As he showed against you, he was good enough to pull it off as well. You went the direct counter to his greedy build and he still managed to win the game. That means that the build was justified and not too greedy at all, he managed to defend it.
Also, don't insult a player who you hard-countered and he still won. That's just being stupid (and probably making him laugh).
His definitions are pretty spot-on, except I would add that in an all-in you most likely stop worker production as well, so if anything your cannon rush was probably more of an all-in than his 14-hatch, specially if you failed and kept doing it.
The only problem I see though is you responding to this little kid. Any mature person knows that if you win, there is no point to rub it in. He probably just saw you from here on TL and felt proud of himself for beating you and couldn't keep quiet. Be the bigger person next time 
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thx everybody! I learned many things through this =P
1. Block chat, if someone starts to bash you after game.
2. 14hatch is greedy build, that should be punished or else you will be much behind.
3. Don't go too all-in with cannons^^
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On December 28 2010 03:48 intrigue wrote:
you use the word "cheese" like a moron. embarrassing, please stop.
and you also dont know what all in means
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oh god I started reading that convo and had to stop, simply too painful
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On December 28 2010 23:48 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 03:48 intrigue wrote:
you use the word "cheese" like a moron. embarrassing, please stop. and you also dont know what all in means
Woah guys, calm down. Just because someone uses a term wrong, means you need to be rude to them to help them correct that. You talk to them like they're a person, treat them how you want to be treated.
You guys are just as bad as that guy BMing after he won. It's unnecessary and makes you look like a giant dick.
If that's what you're going for, enjoy your e-peen enlargement, it won't help you get girls in real life. Sorry!
But that conversation; So rude. :< People will BM me in game because I do a MMM ball, and maybe add a few thors, and they're all "Most boring build in the game, GG" "Wow, Terrans OP. GJ doing what everyone else does" ;~; And i'm like, hey, I just started! I'm trying to get basics down, then i'll try new things! !__!
Or when I go Zealot-Void Ray then transition into Carriers, people get mad. ;__; I'm just learning~ !!
No reason to BM when you win, IMO. Unless they BM'd you first in game.
I can't watch the game right now cause i'm at work, but i'll watch it later with my boyfriend.
But who said that All-in was attack ONLY? You can have all in builds leading up to an all in attack. Don't be so picky. :u
Edit: To answer the original question:
He's right, 14 hatch isn't all in, but you handled yourself better and didn't look like a giant bitch. :<
So, my vote is for you~
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Woah, thx<3! really nice post 
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On December 30 2010 18:21 Welmu wrote:Woah, thx<3! really nice post
=)
I understand English is your second language, right?
Just read up on things if you're not sure and you'll be good to go!
And learn to counter 14-hatch xD
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On December 31 2010 12:33 Welmu wrote:
Yes, mom ^^
I'm going to hit you. XD
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-176751.jpg)
