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Zurich15314 Posts
Random bits of knowledge about Germany![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/KAjXG.png)
Short introduction:
I tossed up several opening column drafts to this blog series I was planning on writing for a long time now. None of them were satisfactory so far, so I just figured I’ll skip an opening all together and just start writing the first column.
This will be a series of truly random and arbitrary bits of knowledge about Germany, its people, curiosities, culture, and history. Basically I will write about whatever interesting or noteworthy I notice during the day. I hope this will be interesting to the foreign reader, which will be my target audience, but maybe at least be amusing to the German ones as well.
My first column will be about Small Talk.
Small talk in Germany is a delicate topic. Germans don’t have a reputation of being the most open and talkative people on the planet, and rightfully so. It’s rather uncommon to just start conversing with strangers on the bus, in line at Subway’s, or anyway basically. Should you as the inexperienced visitor try to open a conversation with a stranger about a seemingly innocent topic, you might at best receive a confused glance, a nod, and a mumbled response in return.
Similarly, say you actually managed to get the attention of say a co-worker, you will find that your attempts to discuss this weekend’s events, the weather, or whatever light topic you can think of will be answered promptly and efficiently, and quickly stop at a dead end.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/XOOnf.jpg)
You have to understand that suggesting to discuss such superfluous topics like the weather is considered an insult to the great minds of the nation of poets and philosophers. The notion of actually wasting time on self-evident chit chat just doesn’t work with the German’s principles of efficiency and quality. You will actually find Germans that will proudly proclaim “I don’t do small talk”, and will fail to understand why anyone would want to do so.
One of the most obvious occurrences of this failure to communicate lightly you will find when you are about to enter an elevator with people already in it. The looks you will receive go from “this is MY elevator” “how dare you interrupt my ride on the second floor” to “you better be quiet”. Take a deep breath, make a confident but not aggressive step into the cabin, turn around to face the door, and hope you can hold your breath until you reach your floor. You may mumble a short “tschuss” under your breath when leaving, but this is dangerous and may break elevator silence etiquette if done incorrectly.
All this may appear hostile to the outsider, but just realize that there is a time and a place. Once you have identified the correct social situation and sufficiently serious topics, you will find Germans to be the most outstanding discussion partners.
In fact, Germans LOVE to discuss any topic and argue for the heck of it. This is the other side of the coin that may disturb the outsider. A German dinner conversation is seriously lacking if there isn’t an in depth discussion about the upcoming financial crisis, the catastrophe that is today’s educational system, the horrible war in country X, the end of the world, or other light hearted topics. If there wasn’t a considerable uproar with at least one guest leaving the table in indignation the dinner may be considered a disappointing and in vain venture.
It is expected from you to have a strong opinion, defend your point to the finish and refuse to accept any compromise. This isn’t chit chat anymore, you entered today’s last remnants of Germany’s 1848 parliamentary debates. Don’t expect this to blow over quickly either. You are expected to carry your argument against surprisingly well informed Germans past midnight.
I have seen many times that foreign visitors were embarrassed and shocked that a serious family feud seemed to break out from their innocent attempt to start some conversation over dessert. Don’t be. Get your boxing gloves and dive into the fray. You just earned enough respect that your German hosts will forgive you another week of asking how the kids are doing.
 
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I hate small talk, sounds like Germany would be a good fit for me as I find more joy in having logical conversations than talking about things I don't care about.
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add "and it all ends in an massive drinking orgy" and it sounds like austria xD
but maybe it's only here, cause i live in so close proximity to germany(?) I can see the border when looking out the window 
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
that sounds awesome.
i wanna live in germany one day
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Sounds like my apartment, lovely!
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I live in Germany myself and though the OP is overstating somewhat, all of it is true.
Since im not German myself i was quite shocked when I was dragged into a family feud once at my gf's place culminating in plates getting thrown at the wall, shattering, when i was embarrassedly asking if i should leave, they were like "no way, this is normal, here have another glass of wine.."
and yea drinking alot after eating is the usual thing to do @green.at
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hahaha nice. and srsly why would you start a conversation just because you're in the same elevator or something.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
On December 01 2010 20:01 EtherealDeath wrote:
Sounds like my apartment, lovely!
I want to visit your apartment some day o.0
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Jeah that's Germany! sometimes i feel a litlle more "open" people wouldn't be a bad thing, but in general i like the extensive discussions and no/less small talk!
Keep them coming, very good read!
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And I always imagined people in Germany would always chat about the latest Der Alte :/
Deutschland ist epic IMO.
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9070 Posts
actually I think germans are very talkative, Ive been approached countless times by strangers on bus stations, trains and whatnot. Which is always nice. I had a cool story with a girl the other day on a bus station, she was complaining about her cold and other random stuff from her life. When I finally got the chance to say smth she picked my accent and said 'wait wait wait - lemme guess, you are from switzerland?' so I checked out the girl - solid 8/10 and said 'yea Im from switzerland'
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Braavos36372 Posts
I love these blogs, keep them coming!
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On December 01 2010 21:11 disciple wrote:
actually I think germans are very talkative, Ive been approached countless times by strangers on bus stations, trains and whatnot. Which is always nice. I had a cool story with a girl the other day on a bus station, she was complaining about her cold and other random stuff from her life. When I finally got the chance to say smth she picked my accent and said 'wait wait wait - lemme guess, you are from switzerland?' so I checked out the girl - solid 8/10 and said 'yea Im from switzerland'
ahaha. that "are you from switzerland" thing happens to me a lot. :D
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germany sounds like a nice place for me. i dont really like small talk either, but im getting better at it. hard to come up with things to talk about all the time.
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On December 01 2010 19:49 zatic wrote:innocent attempt to start some conversation over desert.
Was this ESL error or a clever Afrika Korps joke?
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On December 01 2010 22:04 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 19:49 zatic wrote:innocent attempt to start some conversation over desert. Was this ESL error or a clever Afrika Korps joke?
rofl ahahahaha
Great blog, not a big fan of small talk my self- I should move to Germany! :D
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On December 01 2010 19:56 green.at wrote:add "and it all ends in an massive drinking orgy" and it sounds like austria xD but maybe it's only here, cause i live in so close proximity to germany(?) I can see the border when looking out the window
no, happens alot here in switzerland and i think in germany too.
On December 01 2010 21:30 green.at wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 21:11 disciple wrote:
actually I think germans are very talkative, Ive been approached countless times by strangers on bus stations, trains and whatnot. Which is always nice. I had a cool story with a girl the other day on a bus station, she was complaining about her cold and other random stuff from her life. When I finally got the chance to say smth she picked my accent and said 'wait wait wait - lemme guess, you are from switzerland?' so I checked out the girl - solid 8/10 and said 'yea Im from switzerland' ahaha. that "are you from switzerland" thing happens to me a lot. :D
were you speaking english or german? because if your not swiss you won't have a swiss german accent^^
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Zurich15314 Posts
On December 01 2010 22:04 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 19:49 zatic wrote:innocent attempt to start some conversation over desert. Was this ESL error or a clever Afrika Korps joke?
Fixed 
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What's wrong with small talk 
It beats awkward silence by a mile.
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9070 Posts
On December 01 2010 22:08 DoXa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 19:56 green.at wrote:add "and it all ends in an massive drinking orgy" and it sounds like austria xD but maybe it's only here, cause i live in so close proximity to germany(?) I can see the border when looking out the window no, happens alot here in switzerland and i think in germany too. Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 21:30 green.at wrote:On December 01 2010 21:11 disciple wrote:
actually I think germans are very talkative, Ive been approached countless times by strangers on bus stations, trains and whatnot. Which is always nice. I had a cool story with a girl the other day on a bus station, she was complaining about her cold and other random stuff from her life. When I finally got the chance to say smth she picked my accent and said 'wait wait wait - lemme guess, you are from switzerland?' so I checked out the girl - solid 8/10 and said 'yea Im from switzerland' ahaha. that "are you from switzerland" thing happens to me a lot. :D were you speaking english or german? because if your not swiss you won't have a swiss german accent^^
swiss german accent is pretty easy to emulate
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Exactly right!
I hate Small Talk. Of course as a geographer the differences between areas is important for me. And of course the topic of Small Talk is treated differently in various parts of Germany.
My family is rooted in the Rheinland-area around Cologne and Bonn. Here is the center of KArneval in Germany and people are much more chatty than in othere regions. I was born and lived my whole life in the very north of Germany between the nordic and the baltic sea. Here, people don't talk at all. We just mumble and make noises or stand by each other, saying nothing and afterwards we say something like "good talk" and leave.
And I love it.
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On December 01 2010 23:51 Mavkar wrote:
Exactly right!
I hate Small Talk. Of course as a geographer the differences between areas is important for me. And of course the topic of Small Talk is treated differently in various parts of Germany.
My family is rooted in the Rheinland-area around Cologne and Bonn. Here is the center of KArneval in Germany and people are much more chatty than in othere regions. I was born and lived my whole life in the very north of Germany between the nordic and the baltic sea. Here, people don't talk at all. We just mumble and make noises or stand by each other, saying nothing and afterwards we say something like "good talk" and leave.
And I love it.
:D why talk just because you feel like it's an obligation or you think you're ought to do so.
I like interesting conversations, could be about anything, but it just has to have some meaning
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Belgium9945 Posts
Nice blog
On December 01 2010 21:11 disciple wrote:
actually I think germans are very talkative, Ive been approached countless times by strangers on bus stations, trains and whatnot. Which is always nice. I had a cool story with a girl the other day on a bus station, she was complaining about her cold and other random stuff from her life. When I finally got the chance to say smth she picked my accent and said 'wait wait wait - lemme guess, you are from switzerland?' so I checked out the girl - solid 8/10 and said 'yea Im from switzerland'
A story you should finish in another one of your blogs.
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This is really awesome! I look forward to more random facts
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On December 01 2010 22:08 DoXa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 19:56 green.at wrote:add "and it all ends in an massive drinking orgy" and it sounds like austria xD but maybe it's only here, cause i live in so close proximity to germany(?) I can see the border when looking out the window no, happens alot here in switzerland and i think in germany too. Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 21:30 green.at wrote:On December 01 2010 21:11 disciple wrote:
actually I think germans are very talkative, Ive been approached countless times by strangers on bus stations, trains and whatnot. Which is always nice. I had a cool story with a girl the other day on a bus station, she was complaining about her cold and other random stuff from her life. When I finally got the chance to say smth she picked my accent and said 'wait wait wait - lemme guess, you are from switzerland?' so I checked out the girl - solid 8/10 and said 'yea Im from switzerland' ahaha. that "are you from switzerland" thing happens to me a lot. :D were you speaking english or german? because if your not swiss you won't have a swiss german accent^^
Well i live at a place they call the "3 länder eck" so i am very close to germany and switzerland and people here speak like a mixture of all 3 countries even inside austria people will think i am from switzerland. so it's not a true swiss accent but it comes close ( any person from switzerland would know i guess).
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Im going to Germany to celebrate a new year. I will teach you how to have small talks guys dont worry :" ) and that part with Elevator is epic. keep it up man.
also can i ask how is it possible that so many young germans dont know what Esport is even they are playing on ESL. I saw videos about that.
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Germany meetup one day so all us nerds can pick up chicks with foreign accents imo.
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On December 02 2010 01:52 green.at wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 22:08 DoXa wrote:On December 01 2010 19:56 green.at wrote:add "and it all ends in an massive drinking orgy" and it sounds like austria xD but maybe it's only here, cause i live in so close proximity to germany(?) I can see the border when looking out the window no, happens alot here in switzerland and i think in germany too. On December 01 2010 21:30 green.at wrote:On December 01 2010 21:11 disciple wrote:
actually I think germans are very talkative, Ive been approached countless times by strangers on bus stations, trains and whatnot. Which is always nice. I had a cool story with a girl the other day on a bus station, she was complaining about her cold and other random stuff from her life. When I finally got the chance to say smth she picked my accent and said 'wait wait wait - lemme guess, you are from switzerland?' so I checked out the girl - solid 8/10 and said 'yea Im from switzerland' ahaha. that "are you from switzerland" thing happens to me a lot. :D were you speaking english or german? because if your not swiss you won't have a swiss german accent^^ Well i live at a place they call the "3 länder eck" so i am very close to germany and switzerland and people here speak like a mixture of all 3 countries even inside austria people will think i am from switzerland. so it's not a true swiss accent but it comes close ( any person from switzerland would know i guess).
then i suppose that you're from Vorarlberg? i know that people near the swiss borders speak some kind of different accent then their fellow people in the country, but atleast i can differ those accents pretty easy.
anyway i found this a pretty fun fact that i've never heard of. didn't want to go offtopic.
i don't know the german habits myself, cause i'm not german. but i think it's very similiar here in switzerland. if you've broken the ice you'll find yourself in very interesting discussions that can last four hours. but we're not so into small-talks.
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Austin10831 Posts
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
very humorous and insightful, but a very good read, when I was a sushi apprentice, there was an international diplomat's conference and the first night the French ambassador came in to eat and basically as we were talking at the sushi bar he said, 'fucking germans always causing the problems in Europe (this was before the euro)' and then the next night the German ambassador came in and as we're talking he said, 'fucking french always causing the problems in Europe.' lol
but I enjoy talking to Germans when they are drunk, very intense discussions where nothing is really out of bounds but still talked with some depth keke.
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5 stars.
I always love to hear insight about other cultures, keep em comming. I knew that German have pride in what they are and how intelligent they are, but the chit chat hate is the kind of everyday stuff that makes a blog interesting.
There should be more blog like this one and less : "OMFG my girlfriend had sex with 2 others guys b4 me plz help."
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Living in the US (now in the South...) means I get to deal with random people talking to me all the time and they always end up asking "war ya from" cause I'm Taiwanese. Germany sounds much better =/.
/Can you do one about how Germany feels about all these bailouts?
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5003 Posts
sounds surprisingly like uchicago, actually
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United States22883 Posts
On December 02 2010 05:46 Milkis wrote:
sounds surprisingly like uchicago, actually
Austrian
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Interesting! I've never really seen any heated discussions in Germany. Most Germans I met are friendly and usually smile, although I've never really tried any small talk myself.
My first time there I walked inside an old office building and while walking in the hallway heard locals talking. I immediately have a mental image of being in an old war movie.
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My dad lived in Germany for two years. He wasn't a huge fan of the culture. I think it clashes too much with West Coast American culture (it seems like it would be okay with East Coast culture). What's acceptable in Germany can kinda make you seem like a jerk where I come from. It's weird how even within Western societies there's a huge difference in cultural expectations. Just traveling to different parts of the US can make a huge difference in how people treat you.
In your next blog you should discuss Germans' disdain for ice in their drinks. Or how they all think Root Beer is disgusting and tastes like medicine.
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No small talk?
I.must.move.
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Nice blog. Never know this before. Now I'm feeling like me and all of my friends are backstab bastard. All we do here is gossip, talk about others, sometime a serious topic will come up but not that often. We dont defense our point that good, very likely to compromise or evade the topic all together.
I think I'll try the German style today when I am in class and see how it goes lol.
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Fascinating some of the little things you can learn from a blog on TeamLiquid.
Thanks for sharing.
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I hate smalltalk, I love discussing.
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On December 02 2010 07:06 Kishkumen wrote:
My dad lived in Germany for two years. He wasn't a huge fan of the culture. I think it clashes too much with West Coast American culture (it seems like it would be okay with East Coast culture). What's acceptable in Germany can kinda make you seem like a jerk where I come from. It's weird how even within Western societies there's a huge difference in cultural expectations. Just traveling to different parts of the US can make a huge difference in how people treat you.
In your next blog you should discuss Germans' disdain for ice in their drinks. Or how they all think Root Beer is disgusting and tastes like medicine.
or why they carbonate .... EVERYTHING
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
germany is one of the top 5 places I want to visit before I die
Reading stuff like this makes me even more curious
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On December 01 2010 22:04 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 19:49 zatic wrote:innocent attempt to start some conversation over desert. Was this ESL error or a clever Afrika Korps joke?
LMFAO!
If correct, this blog might partially explain why my personality is the way it is! (I'm half german, but have no real connection with that country and culture).
Nice entry!
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Zurich15314 Posts
On December 02 2010 07:06 Kishkumen wrote:
In your next blog you should discuss Germans' disdain for ice in their drinks. Or how they all think Root Beer is disgusting and tastes like medicine.
Hmm don't know about ice, but root beer just is disgusting, what is there to say about it.
On December 02 2010 04:48 ZeaL. wrote:
/Can you do one about how Germany feels about all these bailouts?
This would be incredibly hard, since the German feelings about the bailouts are awfully complex. It's a mixture of Euro-patriotism, compassion, anger, told-you-so satisfaction, worry, and indifference.
However it seems like indifference overtakes all currently. We were angry with Greece, but in the end everybody knew Germany is going to pay up once more, so now with Ireland everybody seems to resign to our faith and we keep on shipping.
On December 02 2010 14:25 snorlax wrote:
....or why they carbonate .... EVERYTHING
Because it's BETTER.
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I am 3/4 german so I visit regularly and everything is carbonated, I agree it is ok but I almost puked when one of my cousins was drinking carbonate milk shit is so gross (although that doesn't seem to be commonplace) the other thing is why do they carbonate it so fucking heavily a little Id understand but those little carbonation things just turn drinks into a pile of fucking needles
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Truly spoken, zatic.
You should add to this that many germans understand it as a cultural responsibility to fuel up with local beverage in massive amounts for further going deep discussions about fake gras versus natural gras on a football pit after debating for 4 hours about world crisis.
Yes, we are kinda strange :-)
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On December 02 2010 17:45 snorlax wrote:
I am 3/4 german so I visit regularly and everything is carbonated, I agree it is ok but I almost puked when one of my cousins was drinking carbonate milk shit is so gross (although that doesn't seem to be commonplace) the other thing is why do they carbonate it so fucking heavily a little Id understand but those little carbonation things just turn drinks into a pile of fucking needles
In my whole life living in Germany, I have never heard of or seen carbonated milk. The idea alone makes me tremble in terror.
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Great blog ;D
Be sure to also cover the breed of super-individual nonconformist alternative elite Germans
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On December 02 2010 18:33 Shockk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 17:45 snorlax wrote:
I am 3/4 german so I visit regularly and everything is carbonated, I agree it is ok but I almost puked when one of my cousins was drinking carbonate milk shit is so gross (although that doesn't seem to be commonplace) the other thing is why do they carbonate it so fucking heavily a little Id understand but those little carbonation things just turn drinks into a pile of fucking needles In my whole life living in Germany, I have never heard of or seen carbonated milk. The idea alone makes me tremble in terror.
Yes that sounds more like crime against agricultural product :-)
I'm from a region with many milk farms, I' never heard of such a thing. Makes my stomach twist.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
i've liked every german person i ever met
maybe it's because i am one!
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9070 Posts
I like analyzing cultural differences. Especially the bits where the opinion of the "foreign" doesnt overlaps with the image "home" is trying to create for itself. I've spent some good amount of time with german ppl of my generaton, and so far, I agree with what zatic said in his blog, no idea where this will go in the future, I'm curious to see. Most of my german friends indeed ask me very often what do I think about Germany, the political events here and the social processes in general. Which is rather interesting to witness since most of the big west european nations tend to get ignorant in their sense of national pride. But from what I can see, especially from the younger generation here, germans are trying to remove the old stereotypes about their nation and replace them with smth else... smth more american I fear
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Germany2896 Posts
Wait... discussing global thermonuclear war isn't small talk?
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Hahaha, I love this blog! I am having so much trouble connecting with my German colleagues (Im in an international environment). It goes like this:
me "so, what do you work on?"
german guy "I work on [something weird that I dont understand]"
me "oh, sounds nice... can you explain this/that?"
german guy says one short sentence
...
Usually I drop it after two or three I ask/they answer but dont ask anything about me/dont talk about anything else...
Even though I enjoy the differences between cultures, this one makes it really long and hard (...) to build relationships with German people. The good thing is, if you're patient enough, you get good quality relationships..
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Ahh, Germany sounds like a great place. I would love to sit down and enjoy a nice large glass of beer and discuss events, and opinions, rather than the dull banter that is usually passed between ears.
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On December 03 2010 01:33 NoMicro wrote:
Ahh, Germany sounds like a great place. I would love to sit down and enjoy a nice large glass of beer and discuss events, and opinions, rather than the dull banter that is usually passed between ears.
Don't get your hopes too high. While what zatic wrote is indeed a german stereotype proven true, it's not as if we have 82 million philosophers here. The majority, even if you have befriended them and thus "unlocked" the key to actual conversation, will gladly indulge into mindless smalltalk and chitchat. And countless people can fill endless conversations about the weather, the last night out or the latest reality TV show - because they don't really have much else going on in their lives.
While the behaviour described in the OP is found often in Germany, there are many folks here as well who'll react with complete lack of comprehension if you refuse smalltalk. Especially younger people between 20-30 will often not behave like "typical germans".
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Yep. Discussing just for the sake of it. I meet with a couple of friends every few weekends, we have lots of beer and smoke heavily, and discuss "heavy" topics just for the fun of it. None of us has professional relations to that, most of my friends are just normal workers. And still, fighting to the death while drinking ist just soooo enjoyable, always makes my week.
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On December 03 2010 01:33 NoMicro wrote:
Ahh, Germany sounds like a great place. I would love to sit down and enjoy a nice large glass of beer and discuss events, and opinions, rather than the dull banter that is usually passed between ears.
It can be rather difficult to meet the suitable people.
Also, at any university you are within a constant ear-shot of those American know-it-alls who love casually lecturing their German acquaintances about the world and how it works.
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zatic, you should habe mentioned that the level of chit-chat gets lower to the north of germany.
if your are in the north the people will just ignore you, if they don't know you :D
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interesting blog. I've been studying German in the hopes to spend a good amount of time there in the future, because it seems like a pretty legit country. I pretty much hate small talk more and more every day, so this sounds quite appealing. Also, it's always been a goal of mine to become fluent in another language.
at the same time, if your description is accurate, it sounds like there's a lot of pressure there to be knowledgeable about world events and whatnot, so that is a bit intimidating. but yeah, different cultures are cool.
but yeah, how do you get to know new people in this case? When you meet someone new, do you just walk up to them and ask them for their opinion on the cable leaks or what?
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On December 02 2010 18:33 Shockk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 17:45 snorlax wrote:
I am 3/4 german so I visit regularly and everything is carbonated, I agree it is ok but I almost puked when one of my cousins was drinking carbonate milk shit is so gross (although that doesn't seem to be commonplace) the other thing is why do they carbonate it so fucking heavily a little Id understand but those little carbonation things just turn drinks into a pile of fucking needles In my whole life living in Germany, I have never heard of or seen carbonated milk. The idea alone makes me tremble in terror.
I think he lied and just ripped it off of Ed Byrne (Different Class, 2009 "Not everything tastes better when it's fizzy. Milk, for instance..."). This random facts about Germany thing is kinda funny, maybe I'll steal your idea contribute.
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Yeah, having heated debates is kind of a tradition over here, even amongst our younger generation. Staying up till 3 a.m. arguing over random stuff while drinking heavily, that's the stuff!
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haha just found this blog, its hillariously true. Nice! Its exactly the way I am, my familiy is and all of my friends are.
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sounds like a complete opposite from Brazil, where talking about TV, weather, soccer will start a conversation with virtually anyone, and talking about politics, news, anything deep really, only works on niche crowds
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On December 26 2010 13:43 D10 wrote:
sounds like a complete opposite from Brazil, where talking about TV, weather, soccer will start a conversation with virtually anyone, and talking about politics, news, anything deep really, only works on niche crowds
Talking about football (= soccer for all the americans out there) is maybe an exception to that stereotype (at least to the most male germans) :-)
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Ha, I just stumbled across this thread. So true, so true.
Actually, last weekend I was over to my girlfriend's family for Easter lunch. It happened just as you described it, discussions about horrible war in country X, financial crisis, politics, everyone getting mad at each other. No one willing to compromise, of course.
After about two hours of light-hearted conversation, I took my girlfriend to the balcony for a break. I asked "Why can't discussions ever touch on easy topics, why does every discussion have to be about such serious matter?"
To which she replied: "Why would you want to discuss easy topics?"
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Nice Blog!
I don't actually agree with the smalltalk thing. I live in Bavaria (in the South of Germany  )
and everyday i go to work by train/subway i meet new people starting a small talk. I think some Germans like smalltalk very much, at least in the south.
All the other stuff is totally true!
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EPT
