Just to clarify right off the bat, I'm not a BW diehard (never even played BW multiplayer but still loved it) who is here to claim that nothing should have changed, or indeed a troll claiming nothing HAS changed.
With that in mind, however, I was talking to a friend of mine and we realized just how much was planned for SC2 from the Alpha build onwards, and saw a pattern emerging almost unbroken from that point to this: Blizzard has valiantly attempted to introduce innovation while keeping in view the absolute most important element of a serious RTS (balance) but has had to steadily retreat.
Anyone remember the Soul Hunter? A unit weak as a zergling that got stronger the more enemies it killed, in a throwback to WC3. I agree, it didn't quite seem to fit into the SC2 verse but clearly Blizzard had an idea for it. Depending on its expense, it would require superb micro to pay for itself, but superb micro would make it more than cost effective. Might have seen some awesome pro games
Then there was the godawfully overpowered Mothership.
and weep.
Clearly, a weapon of such power could not comfortably exist in the current SC2 builds. Planet cracker + black hole ability (lololol5BCs down) was ridiculous but instead of scaling them down somewhat, upping its price etc...they just made it into a useless, expensive, single-unit only arbiter.I thought it would be interesting, the toss putting all their eggs in one basket, with the only reasonable counter being to put the hurt on them before it came out. After all, the entire Zerg race works on that principle, no? Let them powerdrone long enough and you lose.
Then there was the void ray. A useless weapon uncharged, and game changing charged. We were already seeing some crazy micro from pros. Now its become...dull. Please not, I am not saying it should/shouldn't have been changed, just seeing a general trend emerging.
The reaper? Quick, cliff jumping, building sniping, worker slaughtering unit. Nerfed into the ground. Currently a useless unit, or so most people seem to feel.
The Thor? Originally a massive-ass walking death factory that could only be assembled on the field. Let alone assembling on the field, its now, lets face it, a Goliath on a couple steroids.
Phase cannons, that could shift around? Gone.
Diamondback. Moving-shot unit like the phoenix currently is. Gone.
Roach. Admittedly overpowered unit with crazy regen which was supposed to spend more time below ground than above. Perhaps could have been balanced by increasing cost/time? Im not sure. But either way, its now an inverse Hydralisk...a ranged unit (after they extended the range) that tanks damage okish, does lowish DPS and can kind of sort of heal. Its a great unit now, don't get me wrong, just very...blah.
Sweet carrier-esque things with a ground-to-air shield similar to immortals. Gone. Carriers are now considered a novelty unit by most people here, it seems.
Battlecruisers that could be upgraded individually to have different special abilities. What we have is the old BC, nerfed till its no longer such a huge force to be reckoned with on the ground like it used to be. I mean, its a battlecruiser. It takes like 3 bases to have them in production. It SHOULD be intimidating.
Obviously, there are still cool mechanic and unit changes in SC2. It just seems like as time went on, Blizzard became less and less sure of all the cool ideas they had, and assumed they could never balance them. I'm no expert, but I can't say. I can only say I would have loved to play around with those units consigned now to history books.
What do you guys think? Could they have been balanced? Does anyone even care about seeing greater unit diversity? I get that SC2 is mostly a macro-oriented game anyway but I just can't help feeling that leaving at least SOME things the way they were and just tweaking them during the beta might have yielded positive results.
I feel like a lot of the units you listed are do-nothing (or die before getting them) or crush everything type of units. That doesn't really fit in with the StarCraft universe, and would making for a really boring game. Although it doesn't have the same drama to have mellowed units, I think it leads to a better game. The Raven is still a giant game changer, the Mothership still deals big damage and can have a huge affect on games, the Infestor is a massive game changer too when used properly.
^^ you're right, of course, but I feel some of the units like the SH and the original Void Ray (Micro) and, I dont know, phase cannons that could move JUST enough to allow for a Protoss wall in etc. should have been explored. Perhaps the original mothership is the most egregious example of a truly "all in" lategame unit. Im just wondering, why not just have arbiters?
There must be something up if some units are, in their current states, not being considered for high level play at all. I understand the BW had some of that as well, but is it blasphemy to want it to be a tighter game than BW? or perhaps just a pipe dream..
And yes, I think the Raven and Infestors, though I cant utilize them properly, are incredible units. The Ghost, too, at least against Toss.
The Soul Hunter was obviously worthless. It would be so difficult to coordinate kills without the unit getting killed that it just wouldn't be worth it.
Blizzard has specifically stated that they nerfed the Void Ray because of timings that MakaPrime sent in that showed a clear imbalance in favor of Protoss. It's not because they dislike micro; it's just that there was a clear imbalance with the unit as it was.
Also, there needs to be more patience with this game. Just because some units aren't currently considered for high level play doesn't mean they won't find their place once the game is more fleshed out. The game is still very new, and some units, especially costly tech units like BCs and Carriers, need specific situations to flourish. The game just isn't that developed yet. In addition to that, Blizzard has two expansions to change and add things to their heart's content. Some of the coolest units in BW came from the expansion itself.
On November 13 2010 06:31 Chill wrote: I feel like a lot of the units you listed are do-nothing (or die before getting them) or crush everything type of units. That doesn't really fit in with the StarCraft universe, and would making for a really boring game. Although it doesn't have the same drama to have mellowed units, I think it leads to a better game. The Raven is still a giant game changer, the Mothership still deals big damage and can have a huge affect on games, the Infestor is a massive game changer too when used properly.
This is the key.
There are two ways you can create interesting units.
1. You make a unit and hard code interesting things into it. This unit can get more powerful the more it kills and THAT'S IT*.
2. You make a unit that behaves and controls well with plenty of hooks for synergy in an army and let players figure it out. A ghost can be incredible to snipe workers, nuke supply, nuke tanks, emp protoss, emp casters, snipe casters, cloak and scout (why you'd do that I dunno), deal heavy damage to light. It's a unit that has tons of interactions and it's up to the players to innovate and make good use of them. The game doesn't tell you how to use a ghost. It gives you a ghost which can do lots of things and lets you do what you want/can with it. Even the lowly zergling can scout, dart around, nibble here, nibble there and can really affect the game or be used in different ways.
2 is way superior in most cases. Sure you want some innovation in mechanics, stuff like Immortal's shield or reaper's cliff jump are a neat touches, but said units still need a level of well roundedness and synergy to make them good units. Why would you ever want the game designers forcing specific innovations when you can instead give units to the players and let them innovate how they're used.
To an extent you can try to combine the two, the raven has innovation and flexibility, but if you code something very strong in the style of the 1st way then it means the unit has to have a more specific and define role otherwise it'll be overpowered or underpowered. That's why stuff like the soul hunter and mothership had to be changed.
*Which is stupid anyways because units are already 'stronger' the more they kill in terms of return on investment.
Other than the reaper, which still sees some use anyways, the only units not used in high level play are not used because most games do not go long enough yet to get them out. So many SC2 games are won with BOs or won on smaller maps that we don't get to see BCs & Carriers. Once people are used to the long term game we'll probably see that stuff more often.
I think SC2 fell victim to the huge expectations of fans.
Blizzard had ideas, and some of these would've definitely made it with a LOT of balancing and fine tuning, but fans are so impatient and threaten to burn cities if there's one little thing wrong with the game. So blizzard had to nerf shit till they got exhausted and resort to playing it safe.
If everything is nerfed to death, at least you don't need to worry about imbalance. I don't like that approach, but the truth is that a superior approach simply isn't known.
Hopefully they ship out a funky expansion that is fun to play, and it miraculously falls into near perfect balance.. like it happened in Brood War.
The problem I see with SC2 is the creep. It limits the zerg so much, and on bigger maps it will hurt zerg a lot. It give zerg a limitation that is hurting the game in the long run.
The biggest problems with SC2 at the moment is the amount misinformation out there and the complete lack of understanding of the game by 90% of the playing population. There is so much awesome stuff in the game that hasn't been explored or tested properly. It really does have the potential to be as deep and balanced as BW in the long run.
For instance, the two posters above me don't understand SC2. Not everything is nerfed to death, and there are a ton of units which retain that "wtf that has to be imbalanced" aura about them (just as what happened inside of BW). Creep management isn't a Zerg limitation, its a Zerg skillset which adds to the overall difficulty of the race and raises the overall skill ceiling - how is that a bad thing?
The way the game is right now there is no point for a mothership, honestly I would care less if they just took it out of the game since they intended it to be like a godship but its just a slow piece of crap. The other units aren't as good as they used to be but still have viability while the mothership has none.
On November 13 2010 07:45 storm44 wrote: The way the game is right now there is no point for a mothership, honestly I would care less if they just took it out of the game since they intended it to be like a godship but its just a slow piece of crap. The other units aren't as good as they used to be but still have viability while the mothership has none.
Disagree, there was a thread posted here talking about a Mothership build in PvP, which actually works very well. I forget who posted it now, but if you are interested im sure a quick search will reveal it.
The build works well. It is pretty fun, its not as popular as collosi wars, but its a viable build.
On November 13 2010 06:31 Chill wrote: I feel like a lot of the units you listed are do-nothing (or die before getting them) or crush everything type of units. That doesn't really fit in with the StarCraft universe, and would making for a really boring game. Although it doesn't have the same drama to have mellowed units, I think it leads to a better game. The Raven is still a giant game changer, the Mothership still deals big damage and can have a huge affect on games, the Infestor is a massive game changer too when used properly.
that's so bullshit, Starcraft was defined by its imbalanced, original and interesting units that somehow created a balanced game, maintaining intensity in battles of all scales. Think of the amount of drama and excitement the old Mothership would've created? The ultimate glass cannon, at an extremely high cost, yet it can be taken down easily without the proper support.
Mellowed units equal a better game? It leads to a safer game, not a better game. SC2 may be exceptionally balanced for the amount of time its been out, but goddamn it can never evoke the same emotions that BW evokes (part of this I also attribute to SC2's horrendous sound design). Reaper or Hellion can't compare to the Vulture, both Templars and Archon in SC2 are much less badass than its BW counterparts. Colossus is nothing like the Reaver and Defiler beats the Infestor by miles.
SC2 has its fair share of cool innovations. Warp Gates, Medivacs, Warp Prisms.. too bad it doesn't do much to rescue the game.
On November 13 2010 07:34 Neivler wrote: The problem I see with SC2 is the creep. It limits the zerg so much, and on bigger maps it will hurt zerg a lot. It give zerg a limitation that is hurting the game in the long run.
That is a map issue then. And also, its generally accepted that the larger the map, the better it is for Zerg. (you can place neutral creep and tumors on maps)
On November 13 2010 07:45 storm44 wrote: The way the game is right now there is no point for a mothership, honestly I would care less if they just took it out of the game since they intended it to be like a godship but its just a slow piece of crap. The other units aren't as good as they used to be but still have viability while the mothership has none.
Again, misinformation. Mothership can be used in PvZ and PvP where you often are working towards massive deathballs in the late game. The Motherships key strength is its ability to augment the power of any deathball tenfold by making it invisible, and by drawing fire which allows the deal damage dealers to do tons of damage.
There´s alot of cool stuff in the game, just play & try it out. I don´t see the point in theorycrafting about "cool" stuff that would more or less break the game. If you have too much "cute" units in the game there´s no way you can balance it & I take balance over "cute" anytime.
Hey don't get me wrong, I love this game though I manifestly suck at it. It seems still theres always that point where my focus is drawn away for like 4 seconds and my minerals climb to crazy numbers. Its getting better though.
But units wise, I guess Im just mad I missed out on BW. I mean...dark swarm? Perma mind control dark archons? Cheap-ass bikes with 3 free mines which will kill, like, infinity marines? Lurkers? (invisible unit that hits like a siege tank ftw.) STASIS! Mass recall. Utterly devastating psistorm. One-shotting supply depots with properly microed mutas.
What I'm trying to say is that in BW, you had all these crazy abilities and they seemed to balance out for an awesome game. Am I wrong? (let me know, I have no real idea about BW).
Just seemed like Blizzard was like "To hell with safety, we'll balance ridiculous units and abilities if we have to."
And it seemed to make an awesome game. Why the backpeddling? Surely they're more skilled at balancing now than they were then?
On November 13 2010 07:40 Plexa wrote: The biggest problems with SC2 at the moment is the amount misinformation out there and the complete lack of understanding of the game by 90% of the playing population. There is so much awesome stuff in the game that hasn't been explored or tested properly. It really does have the potential to be as deep and balanced as BW in the long run.
I disagree , when the players do find something interesting it is removed from the game or nerfed into uselessness by blizzard.
Example - the extra 7% (or 9% or w/e it was) mineral mining early game mechanic
On November 13 2010 06:24 Autofire2 wrote: The reaper? Quick, cliff jumping, building sniping, worker slaughtering unit. Nerfed into the ground. Currently a useless unit, or so most people seem to feel.
Just a quick fix here. The reaper is not considered a useless unit when used right. They no longer are used for really early game harassment, but are most certainly used to scout in all 3matchups, especially when doing 1rax expand. Select uses the reaper expansion build vs protoss all the time (took a game from NEXGenius using it at Blizzcon)
On November 13 2010 07:45 storm44 wrote: The way the game is right now there is no point for a mothership, honestly I would care less if they just took it out of the game since they intended it to be like a godship but its just a slow piece of crap. The other units aren't as good as they used to be but still have viability while the mothership has none.
Again, misinformation. Mothership can be used in PvZ and PvP where you often are working towards massive deathballs in the late game. The Motherships key strength is its ability to augment the power of any deathball tenfold by making it invisible, and by drawing fire which allows the deal damage dealers to do tons of damage.
Plex, Jeez Louise are you serious? Motherships are silly, poorly designed and unviable units.
Sure, if you have a 200 supply army ready to crunch someone, getting a Moship is probably better than spending that supply on another collosus (assuming you have enough collosus already).
But a unit that a) requires the heaviest tech investment / resource investment in the game and b) is only better than more standard units at the supply cap (and probably less so over time as terrans and zergs learn the value of keeping mobile detection with their armies more as a matter of routine) and c) is a caster unit which you can only build one of is a silly damn unit.
I ask you if there has been a single instance where you would have preferred a mothership over the ability to make arbiters at will? I ask you for a single instance below 200 food where you made a mothership in a game you hadn't already won and it was the best move?
I understand your defense of Blizzards design choices, but the blog had a good point in there. Motherships are lame.
On November 13 2010 07:40 Plexa wrote: Creep management isn't a Zerg limitation, its a Zerg skillset which adds to the overall difficulty of the race and raises the overall skill ceiling - how is that a bad thing?
Don't get me wrong here Plexa, I just feel that that way of thinking isn't correct. If supply depots cost only 50 minerals but would only grant 4 supply (ignoring the loss of SCV mining time), then that would be a Terran skillset which adds to the overall difficulty of the race and raises the overall skill ceiling...
In my opinion Zerg creep is just a useless feature that a "skilled" Zerg HAS to use in order to be effective, just like the Terran would have to utilise more APM and "skill" to build twice the depots.
Hopefully you get what I'm saying, you can throw whatever into the game and claim its to "raise the skill ceiling".
On November 13 2010 07:40 Plexa wrote: The biggest problems with SC2 at the moment is the amount misinformation out there and the complete lack of understanding of the game by 90% of the playing population. There is so much awesome stuff in the game that hasn't been explored or tested properly. It really does have the potential to be as deep and balanced as BW in the long run.
I disagree , when the players do find something interesting it is removed from the game or nerfed into uselessness by blizzard.
Example - the extra 7% (or 9% or w/e it was) mineral mining early game mechanic
Mineral boosting wasn't interesting. It was something you did because there was no loss from doing it, and no gain from not doing it.
Also, from a balance perspective, it would be a nightmare to deal with in the long run. How do you balance early game timings properly when they fluctuate by 0-7% for no defensible reason?
On November 13 2010 07:40 Plexa wrote: Creep management isn't a Zerg limitation, its a Zerg skillset which adds to the overall difficulty of the race and raises the overall skill ceiling - how is that a bad thing?
Don't get me wrong here Plexa, I just feel that that way of thinking isn't correct. If supply depots cost only 50 minerals but would only grant 4 supply (ignoring the loss of SCV mining time), then that would be a Terran skillset which adds to the overall difficulty of the race and raises the overall skill ceiling...
In my opinion Zerg creep is just a useless feature that a "skilled" Zerg HAS to use in order to be effective, just like the Terran would have to utilise more APM and "skill" to build twice the depots.
Hopefully you get what I'm saying, you can throw whatever into the game and claim its to "raise the skill ceiling".
Except that creep functions territorially/geometrically instead of some arbitrary one-dimensional limit. That creep can be spread to deny expansions is something substantial already.
On November 13 2010 19:38 TheYango wrote: Mineral boosting wasn't interesting. It was something you did because there was no loss from doing it, and no gain from not doing it.
Also, from a balance perspective, it would be a nightmare to deal with in the long run. How do you balance early game timings properly when they fluctuate by 0-7% for no defensible reason?
It was something that seperated the pros from the newbs , like muta stacking in brood war , mineral jumping (with probe/scv/drone) in brood war , perfect splitting in brood war.
Look at the long term TvZ balance in the Korean Proleague and you'll see it goes between 40-60% win rate for either T or Z when new strategies etc are developed and the balance ebbs for months.Nowdays you wouldn't see that short term imbalance in favour of T or Z when a new strategy is developed as blizzard will just nerf that particular strategy without waiting enough time for a counter to be developed.The rate things are going SC2 will have more useless units than brood war.
(Coming from a z/p player in sc2 who doesn't agree with the supply depot before rax and the factory for reaper speed upgrades)
EPT
