|
On September 11 2010 22:33 amarillo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 22:24 SubtleArt wrote:
With thousands upon thousans upon thousands upon thousands of games, if the matchup were truly balanced it would be almost dead 50/50, at the max 51% for terran, but its 53.7% all time, and this year was around 59%. Four of the six greatest players of all time were Terran and yet Terran is ahead less than 4% so this means Terran is imbalanced? What? Why are you acting as though the players are identical computer A.I.s and would win 50% of the time in all matchups if all the races and maps were balanced?
Because 4 players, no matter how good, aren't enough to skew stats that much in a sample that includes such a ridiculous amount of games. This is all pro games ever played, including online as well as offline qualifiers, SPL, OSL, MSL, and GOM. Ask yourself how many pros have played Starcraft in Korea....you think that 4 Terrans would be able to skew the stats so much in a 10 year sample that the balance % would be close to their TvZ stats? Wtf, this is simple logic. I don't think you realize just how many players and games there have been.
|
Can someone calculate this season's Terran % with two scenarios?
a) Current one
b) Flash at 50% winrate and the rest of the wins given to the other races
|
On September 11 2010 22:39 Demand2k wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 22:05 Lightwip wrote:
Not that there's imbalance, but maps usually tend to favor terran the most.
Not just MSL/OSL maps but in general. There are just some things that Protoss especially can't adapt to(Tears of the Moon). You're EXACTLY the kind of guy OP is talking about. Your first sentence can be rewritten into "Not that there's imbalance, but maps usually tend to be imbalanced". What's the difference between racial vs map "imbalance"?
Map imbalance is well known and is always recognized - some maps are generally even by MU, some lean towards certain races in certain matchups. There are very tangible things (defensibility of the nat, min-only expansions, etc) that determine map balance.
Racial balance is much harder as you have to take into account player skill, the maps, the strategies, and a thousand other things to say if a race is 'better' than another. That's an entirely different matter.
|
I played many games as terran and at on point I was top #600 in the world and I say terran is imba vs zerg
|
On September 11 2010 22:24 SubtleArt wrote:
Come on, there is innate TvZ imbalance. So many players have admitted it. Have you read Sea's last 5 interviews?
"I believe that against Zerg I must win"
"I beat JAedong due to the innate fraudulence of TErran"
"Its a really good strat, and I don't think theres any way for Zerg to win if Terran handles it properly"
With thousands upon thousans upon thousands upon thousands of games, if the matchup were truly balanced it would be almost dead 50/50, at the max 51% for terran, but its 53.7% all time, and this year was around 59%.
I believe in the T>Z>P>T thing, but even discarding that, this year, at the very least, you can't deny Terran was definitely ahead of Zerg in TvZ
lol can't stop laughing. Well regged in 2010 keep on spamming Bs. There's something called maps. and 53% is pretty balanced
|
On September 11 2010 22:54 Demand2k wrote:
Can someone calculate this season's Terran % with two scenarios?
a) Current one
b) Flash at 50% winrate and the rest of the wins given to the other races
Yes, you can.
|
Canada2480 Posts
On September 11 2010 22:13 Lonyo wrote:
Actually the terran "imbalance" in BW is a perfect example of why complaining about SC2 "imbalance" is stupid.
Maybe some things are a little easy to take advantage of (e.g. reaper), but as SC BW has shown, different races have different periods of dominance for different reasons.
Just because T is "OP" or "imba" right now doesn't necessarily mean that it will be so forevermore, even without balance changes.
IMO we need new maps that don't play so much to T strengths (lots of cliffs to take easy advantage of, open natural expos etc).
Someone dominating BW doesn't show imbalance, and it's stupid to claim it does, but the varying periods of dominance by different races shows that balance changes over time as strategies are developed.
When you get someone like Flash, who is imbalanced, then that changes things, but that doesn't mean the game is imbalanced, just that Flash is.
complaining about BW is stupid
Complaining about SC2 is good, they need to pump out patches, you can't have perfect balance on first try, complaints help them fix problems. if we all keep quiet that means the game is perfectly balanced and there is no place for amelioration, it took I don't know how many patches to have BroodWar as it is today (spawning pool at 150 minerals anyone?).
|
On September 11 2010 22:22 ZlaSHeR wrote:
Don't worry, all the apriltards who joined TL just to enter those beta key contests dont exactly realize that this game takes a brain.
This final was Flash v Jaedong, not TvZ
april tards?? why not april fools!
|
I got bored and looked up the win rates for Terrans in TvZ and TvP during proleague, winner's league, the last three MSLs, and the last three OSLs. It's 52.5% (528-477). I can't really say that screams imbalance to me. Actually it's kind of funny when you consider how it seems like every map except Dreamliner, Fighting Spirit, and to some extent Polaris Rhapsody get cries of Terran imbalance.
|
United States22883 Posts
On September 11 2010 23:47 swanized wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 22:13 Lonyo wrote:
Actually the terran "imbalance" in BW is a perfect example of why complaining about SC2 "imbalance" is stupid.
Maybe some things are a little easy to take advantage of (e.g. reaper), but as SC BW has shown, different races have different periods of dominance for different reasons.
Just because T is "OP" or "imba" right now doesn't necessarily mean that it will be so forevermore, even without balance changes.
IMO we need new maps that don't play so much to T strengths (lots of cliffs to take easy advantage of, open natural expos etc).
Someone dominating BW doesn't show imbalance, and it's stupid to claim it does, but the varying periods of dominance by different races shows that balance changes over time as strategies are developed.
When you get someone like Flash, who is imbalanced, then that changes things, but that doesn't mean the game is imbalanced, just that Flash is. complaining about BW is stupid Complaining about SC2 is good, they need to pump out patches, you can't have perfect balance on first try, complaints help them fix problems. if we all keep quiet that means the game is perfectly balanced and there is no place for amelioration, it took I don't know how many patches to have BroodWar as it is today (spawning pool at 150 minerals anyone?). BW had two patches total that dealt with balance, and they were like a year apart. What on earth is your point? Pumping out patches for SC2 is about the worst thing they could do.
BW isn't perfectly balanced (*gasp*) because perfect balance is unobtainable. There's always variance in player skill, player condition and maps that tip the odds one direction or another and have a greater impact than the race's innate abilities. The fact that they achieved that is incredible and its done so better than anything else to date, but to call anything perfectly balanced is silly. The only way a game could be balanced was if there was only one race.
Flash outplayed Jaedong today, and while the fourth game was aggravating, Jaedong made many more mistakes than Flash and did not play at the same level. If there was anything imba involved, it could've easily been overcome by Jaedong playing better.
|
On September 11 2010 22:42 Sentenal wrote:
BW is balanced via 12 years of competitive play and several patches, and balanced to the point where maps are the main balance factor in games. People complaining about races being imbalanced in BW are stupid. People who complain about maps being imbalanced might be right, at times.
It isn't the same story in SC2.
So here's a question: what's the difference between racial and map imbalance? How do you know that Z/T/P isn't actually ridiculously imbalanced, but the maps favor the other two races? How can you have a 'pure' racial imbalance without taking into account the maps, or a 'pure' map imbalance without taking into account the races? You can't. They're both equally part of the game.
The only real reason to favor map imbalance over race imbalance is that it's a lot easier to balance with maps than with mechanics changes. This is reasonable, but it doesn't mean that the races are necessarily balanced in BW while the maps aren't; I think people are too pre-occupied with the image of BW as a perfect game, when it really doesn't matter. It's meaningless to say that balance issues come from a certain part of the game; you have to look at the game as a whole. We should instead be thinking that while the game as a whole might be imbalanced, some things are easier to change than others (e.g. the maps).
|
+ Show Spoiler +karma for all the Terran's that cried about Protoss imbalance despite there having never been a Protoss bonjwa XD
but really, ever since more and more people have flocked here for sc2, the crying and whining about imbalance has exponentially grown
and while I love Artosis, what he and Idra are doing isn't helping it at all because so many incompetents hear their opinion and all of a sudden they're brainwashed and can't get the idea out of their head that Terran is horribly imbalanced (kinda like they complained about Protoss in SC1)
+ Show Spoiler +(and Idra/Artosis complaining about imbalance isn't even really a viable source. They both complained about Protoss being imba in SC1 as Terran players even though it was the most underrepresented race amongst the ACTUAL pros of SC1. now they're both Zerg and they both complain about Terran being imba. I'm not saying Zerg isn't the weakest race right now, but just because a well-known figure makes an accusation of imbalance doesn't give all the nerds in plastic league the right to spread imba-qq like a plague)
funny thing is, most losses blamed on imbalance wouldn't have been losses if they had been played better. anyways I ranted, +1 to the OP
stop whining people, if you lose it was probably your fault, stop blaming it on imbalance, MAN UP
|
*Sigh* I hate it when people cry imbalance over BW. I mean come on, can't these guys realize that its Flash vs Jaedong, and not just an ordinary TvZ?
Besides, Its not that certain units are imba in the game, its just what players do with them that makes them more cost efficient and not Imba.
|
If only there was less emotion and more thinking with anything in life.
April fools indeed.
Edit: My win rate is 53% Im so IMBA!!! woooo
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
